This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've removed some incorrect information in the article. I reproduce removed sections here with sources indicating the removed information was indeed false. The removed section stated:
Here is a point by point rebuttal.
I find the other claims in this section highly suspect as well, especially given the above history on this discussion list. I will be researching those topics and posting my conclusions here shortly. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 21:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
After reviewing the history of the Straits Dollar, I have removed it from the list of currencies which are claimed to have the Mexican Peso as its root. While the Spanish Dollar and Mexican Dollar saw some use in the Straits Settlements, the Straits Dollar was eventually based on the Pound Sterling. Prior to the Straits Dollar being issued, all silver dollars were freely exchanged in the colony as it had no official currency. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 22:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Researching the Hong Kong Dollar proves it not to be based on the Mexican Peso. Hong Kong instead saw free trade in many foreign currencies which included the British Pound Sterling (most common), the Spanish Dollar, the Indian Rupee, the Chinese Wen and the Mexican reales. Mexican and Spanish coins were not used as a basis for the HKD, but rather had their values translated into equivalent Pounds Sterling during trades (4 shillings 2 pence). When the HKD was established, its basis was in grams of pure sterling, with 1 HKD worth 24.44 grams of sterling, valuing it at 1 shilling. Both the Mexican reales and Spanish Dollar were valued at approximately 94.5 grams of sterling. Pounds sterling continued to be currency at which the HKD was pegged for it's history. This refutes the claim that the Mexican peso was the basis for the HKD. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 23:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I can find no indication that the Mexican peso was ever used in Japan, and the claim that it was the model for the Japanese Yen is false. The Yen was introduced as a replacement for the Mon in 1871, and was an attempt to model the currencies in use in Europe. It simplified the accounting system under the Mon by using decimal subdivisions and pegged the Yen to the gold standard with 1 Yen being worth 0.78 troy ounces of gold, or 24.26g of sterling silver. As shown in my previous comment, this is not based on the Spanish Dollar, or the Mexican peso, as at the time they were worth about 94.5 grams sterling. Much like the HKD, the Japanese Yen appears to have been pegged to the Shilling, as it's approximately that of the Shilling. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 23:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I am unable to find any source other than Wikipedia which states that the Chinese Yuan was initially valued at 1 Mexican Peso. I have asked editors at Chinese Yuan to help me track down a source for this statement. If anyone here has a source for this statement please share it with us. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 23:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
We're writing an encyclopedia, not fighting in the streets. I'll note that Dove1950's article does mention the Mexican Peso on the page he mentioned. In either case, please show some respect and manners both of you. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 17:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Dove1950, thanks for your comments on my changes and refutations. I respond to your points below.
Dove1950 writes: The recent edits by User:Jolliette have been reverted because they removed content. The arguments given above are highly unconvincing. To begin with, there seems to be a misunderstanding as to the Spanish currency. There was never a currency called the peso used in Spain. All arguments based on the assumption that there was are spurious. Second, there is clear evidence that the Mexican peso was an important trade coin in Asia and was adopted in several states as the basis for the States' own currencies.
My edits did not remove content, they removed unsourced, and in a few cases, obviously wrong information. It is not enough to call my arguments "unconvincing", if you would argue the contrapositive, you must do so. First of all, I note I never claim that there was a currency called the peso in Spain. You need to reread my arguments, because if you think I made that claim, you obviously didn't carefully read them in the first place.
The claim that the Mexican peso was the basis for US state currencies is obvious false because Mexico did not exist as a country with its own currency prior to the creation of the US Dollar.
Dove1950 writes: The statement above "When the HKD was established, its basis was in grams of pure sterling, with 1 HKD worth 24.44 grams of sterling, valuing it at 1 shilling." is nonsensical. Clearly there was a link to sterling but this does not disprove that the Mexican peso was the original basis. As to the Japanese yen, what is a "gram sterling"? Yes, there was a peg to the pound sterling, but that again does not mean that the Mexican peso did not serve as the origin for the yen.
My apologies for my comment on "gram sterling", I assumed you were familiar with Imperial Measures and therefor would know what a gram of sterling silver was. The HKD and Japanese Yen were clearly based on the Shilling which was worth one gram of sterling silver. This was done at their conception which dispoves the Mexican peso as their original basis.
Dove1950 writes: There is a need to clarify the events of 1785, which is why I originally asked for a citation. I'm afraid that the link Jolliette gave does nothing to say one way or the other as to the origin of the first U.S. dollar.
Actually it does say "one way". As the claim in the article is that this very law instated the Mexican peso as legal tender, and yet the law does not in fact state that, it disproves the claim that the Mexican Peso was made legal tender by this law. Additionally since the Mexican peso was not yet created by 1785, it could not be made legal tender. The Mexican peso was not minted, nor conceived prior to Mexican independence from Spain. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 17:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I've started a new section, I hope no one minds terribly. Here is my math and reasoning:
Sterling Silver = 92.5% pure silver.
1845: Hong Kong pegs Spanish and Mexican Reales at 4 shilling 2 pence.
4/20 + 2/240 = 0.208333 pounds sterling.
0.208333 * 0.925 = 0.1927 pounds pure silver
1863: Hong Kong dollar first issued, pegged at 24.44 grams pure silver
24.44 grams pure silver = 0.0538 pounds pure silver
0.0538 pounds pure silver = 0.0581 pounds sterling silver
For reference:
1 shilling = 0.05 pounds sterling silver
= 0.04625 pounds pure silver
1 pence = 0.00416 pounds sterling silver
= 0.00385 pounds pure silver
So yes, you're right, it isn't equal to one shilling, I must have been tired or hasty when performing my previous calculations, but I will note that it is also not based on the Mexican silver coin. The HKD is worth 1 shilling, and 2 pence. The Mexican peso at the time was worth 4 shilling 2 pence. Both are simply pegged to a common standard of pounds sterling which does not suggest the HKD is based on the Peso, but rather was based on an exchange of pounds sterling, and divisions there of. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 22:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is the Japanese Yen:
Japanese Yen is introduced and valued at 24.26g pure silver
24.26g pure silver = 0.0535 pounds pure silver
= 0.0494 pounds sterling silver
Here I was correct as the Japanese yen is indeed worth roughly 1 shilling. The minor sub pence discrepancy is due to the Japanese utilization of the gold standard instead of the silver standard. So the value of the Japanese yen was 1 shilling, as approximated by the ratio of the price between gold and silver (1 yen = 1.5grams gold) -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 22:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Sterling Silver = 92.5% pure silver.
1 lb sterling silver = 66 shillings
1 shilling = 0.01515 lbs sterling
1 pence = 0.00126 lbs sterling
1845: Hong Kong pegs Spanish and Mexican Reales at 4 shilling 2 pence.
1 peso = 0.03535 lbs sterling
1863: Hong Kong dollar first issued, pegged at 24.44 grams pure silver
24.44 g = 0.05388 lbs sterling
= 3.556 shilling
= 42.673 pence
= 1.534 pesos
Japanese Yen is introduced and valued at 24.26g pure silver
24.26 g = 0.05348 lbs sterling
= 3.5299 shilling
= 42.359 pence
= 0.9926 pesos
value | mass of alloy (g) | purity | real content (g) |
---|---|---|---|
MXP/8MXR/8ESR | 27.07 | 90.3% | 24.44421 |
HKD/JPY | 26.9568-27.25 | 90% | 0.78 troy oz = 24.26071 g |
1 shilling | 5.6552 | 92.5% | 5.23106 |
1 shilling × 42⁄12 | 21.79608 | ||
1 shilling × 48⁄12 | 24.41161 |
I have repeated pointed out that HKD = JPY, and you agree that JPY = MXP. This web page says HKD = 4s 2d, and you says MXP = 4s 2d. Please explain to me why HKD ≠ MXP. -- ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 14:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I have added the conclusions derived above about the likely origin of the Japanese yen. However since these conclusions are the derivative of original research and have not yet been confirmed by sources, I have added the Original research warning to the section and tagged the statement about the Yen with a FACT tag. I'll be looking for sources which confirm this basis and would appreciate other's help in clarifying this matter. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 00:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems that we are now agreed as to the links between the peso and the various Asian currencies. However, it seems that there is still some doubt as to the link between the Mexican peso and the U.S. dollar. There has been a citation request on this point for a while now but, probably because the whole section keeps on being removed, no citation has been added. Perhaps if
Jolliette can leave the article alone for a few days, the necessary citation can be found and added to put an end to this discussion once and for all.
Dove1950 (
talk)
20:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
There's an element of truth in the current text, but it's quite confused. The 1785 resolution certainly did not make the Mexican Peso the official currency of the United States. In order to understand what was being resolved, you have to look back a couple of months to May 13, 1785 [4] and see the several options that were being considered. The July resolution chose one of these, with a silver dollar having a different weight in silver than any of the Spanish dollars then in use. The May session discusses the reasons for instituting a distinct US coinage. The weight of the dollar coin in silver was deliberately set to be similar to the Spanish dollar, so in that sense, the US dollar was based on the Spanish coin. But it's quite wrong to say that the Spanish or Mexican dollar was made the official currency of the United States. The article also mentions the first US dollars appearing several years later, which is when the first minted dollar coins were released. In the meantime, the states had been minting their own coins and a variety of foreign coins, including Spanish dollars and British coins, were used. I see nothing to indicate that the Spanish dollar was ever made an official currency. -- Reuben ( talk) 05:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to add my 2 centavos here, primarily to Jolliette's claim
Hong Kong dollar is the best example. Just because Mexico didn't exist as an independent country before 1810 doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't have its own currency before. At the same time, just because a colony is far away from the "motherland" and is much larger doesn't guarantee a distinct currency either. We need better reasons than political sovereignty. According to my 1801-1900 catalog, there are coins listed under Mexico before its independence. They were similar to Spanish coins of the same period, but not identical.
Regardless, we need to clearly define the start date of the Mexican peso. If we can achieve this, than there would be little to argue about. If the start date is some time in the early 1800s, then what currency did the Mexican peso replace? Spanish colonial real? Do we need separate articles for "New Spanish real" or "New Spanish peso"? I believe answering these questions are the first step towards resolving the relationship with the USD and CAD. -- ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 09:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've removed some incorrect information in the article. I reproduce removed sections here with sources indicating the removed information was indeed false. The removed section stated:
Here is a point by point rebuttal.
I find the other claims in this section highly suspect as well, especially given the above history on this discussion list. I will be researching those topics and posting my conclusions here shortly. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 21:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
After reviewing the history of the Straits Dollar, I have removed it from the list of currencies which are claimed to have the Mexican Peso as its root. While the Spanish Dollar and Mexican Dollar saw some use in the Straits Settlements, the Straits Dollar was eventually based on the Pound Sterling. Prior to the Straits Dollar being issued, all silver dollars were freely exchanged in the colony as it had no official currency. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 22:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Researching the Hong Kong Dollar proves it not to be based on the Mexican Peso. Hong Kong instead saw free trade in many foreign currencies which included the British Pound Sterling (most common), the Spanish Dollar, the Indian Rupee, the Chinese Wen and the Mexican reales. Mexican and Spanish coins were not used as a basis for the HKD, but rather had their values translated into equivalent Pounds Sterling during trades (4 shillings 2 pence). When the HKD was established, its basis was in grams of pure sterling, with 1 HKD worth 24.44 grams of sterling, valuing it at 1 shilling. Both the Mexican reales and Spanish Dollar were valued at approximately 94.5 grams of sterling. Pounds sterling continued to be currency at which the HKD was pegged for it's history. This refutes the claim that the Mexican peso was the basis for the HKD. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 23:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I can find no indication that the Mexican peso was ever used in Japan, and the claim that it was the model for the Japanese Yen is false. The Yen was introduced as a replacement for the Mon in 1871, and was an attempt to model the currencies in use in Europe. It simplified the accounting system under the Mon by using decimal subdivisions and pegged the Yen to the gold standard with 1 Yen being worth 0.78 troy ounces of gold, or 24.26g of sterling silver. As shown in my previous comment, this is not based on the Spanish Dollar, or the Mexican peso, as at the time they were worth about 94.5 grams sterling. Much like the HKD, the Japanese Yen appears to have been pegged to the Shilling, as it's approximately that of the Shilling. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 23:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I am unable to find any source other than Wikipedia which states that the Chinese Yuan was initially valued at 1 Mexican Peso. I have asked editors at Chinese Yuan to help me track down a source for this statement. If anyone here has a source for this statement please share it with us. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 23:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
We're writing an encyclopedia, not fighting in the streets. I'll note that Dove1950's article does mention the Mexican Peso on the page he mentioned. In either case, please show some respect and manners both of you. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 17:37, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Dove1950, thanks for your comments on my changes and refutations. I respond to your points below.
Dove1950 writes: The recent edits by User:Jolliette have been reverted because they removed content. The arguments given above are highly unconvincing. To begin with, there seems to be a misunderstanding as to the Spanish currency. There was never a currency called the peso used in Spain. All arguments based on the assumption that there was are spurious. Second, there is clear evidence that the Mexican peso was an important trade coin in Asia and was adopted in several states as the basis for the States' own currencies.
My edits did not remove content, they removed unsourced, and in a few cases, obviously wrong information. It is not enough to call my arguments "unconvincing", if you would argue the contrapositive, you must do so. First of all, I note I never claim that there was a currency called the peso in Spain. You need to reread my arguments, because if you think I made that claim, you obviously didn't carefully read them in the first place.
The claim that the Mexican peso was the basis for US state currencies is obvious false because Mexico did not exist as a country with its own currency prior to the creation of the US Dollar.
Dove1950 writes: The statement above "When the HKD was established, its basis was in grams of pure sterling, with 1 HKD worth 24.44 grams of sterling, valuing it at 1 shilling." is nonsensical. Clearly there was a link to sterling but this does not disprove that the Mexican peso was the original basis. As to the Japanese yen, what is a "gram sterling"? Yes, there was a peg to the pound sterling, but that again does not mean that the Mexican peso did not serve as the origin for the yen.
My apologies for my comment on "gram sterling", I assumed you were familiar with Imperial Measures and therefor would know what a gram of sterling silver was. The HKD and Japanese Yen were clearly based on the Shilling which was worth one gram of sterling silver. This was done at their conception which dispoves the Mexican peso as their original basis.
Dove1950 writes: There is a need to clarify the events of 1785, which is why I originally asked for a citation. I'm afraid that the link Jolliette gave does nothing to say one way or the other as to the origin of the first U.S. dollar.
Actually it does say "one way". As the claim in the article is that this very law instated the Mexican peso as legal tender, and yet the law does not in fact state that, it disproves the claim that the Mexican Peso was made legal tender by this law. Additionally since the Mexican peso was not yet created by 1785, it could not be made legal tender. The Mexican peso was not minted, nor conceived prior to Mexican independence from Spain. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 17:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I've started a new section, I hope no one minds terribly. Here is my math and reasoning:
Sterling Silver = 92.5% pure silver.
1845: Hong Kong pegs Spanish and Mexican Reales at 4 shilling 2 pence.
4/20 + 2/240 = 0.208333 pounds sterling.
0.208333 * 0.925 = 0.1927 pounds pure silver
1863: Hong Kong dollar first issued, pegged at 24.44 grams pure silver
24.44 grams pure silver = 0.0538 pounds pure silver
0.0538 pounds pure silver = 0.0581 pounds sterling silver
For reference:
1 shilling = 0.05 pounds sterling silver
= 0.04625 pounds pure silver
1 pence = 0.00416 pounds sterling silver
= 0.00385 pounds pure silver
So yes, you're right, it isn't equal to one shilling, I must have been tired or hasty when performing my previous calculations, but I will note that it is also not based on the Mexican silver coin. The HKD is worth 1 shilling, and 2 pence. The Mexican peso at the time was worth 4 shilling 2 pence. Both are simply pegged to a common standard of pounds sterling which does not suggest the HKD is based on the Peso, but rather was based on an exchange of pounds sterling, and divisions there of. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 22:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is the Japanese Yen:
Japanese Yen is introduced and valued at 24.26g pure silver
24.26g pure silver = 0.0535 pounds pure silver
= 0.0494 pounds sterling silver
Here I was correct as the Japanese yen is indeed worth roughly 1 shilling. The minor sub pence discrepancy is due to the Japanese utilization of the gold standard instead of the silver standard. So the value of the Japanese yen was 1 shilling, as approximated by the ratio of the price between gold and silver (1 yen = 1.5grams gold) -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 22:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Sterling Silver = 92.5% pure silver.
1 lb sterling silver = 66 shillings
1 shilling = 0.01515 lbs sterling
1 pence = 0.00126 lbs sterling
1845: Hong Kong pegs Spanish and Mexican Reales at 4 shilling 2 pence.
1 peso = 0.03535 lbs sterling
1863: Hong Kong dollar first issued, pegged at 24.44 grams pure silver
24.44 g = 0.05388 lbs sterling
= 3.556 shilling
= 42.673 pence
= 1.534 pesos
Japanese Yen is introduced and valued at 24.26g pure silver
24.26 g = 0.05348 lbs sterling
= 3.5299 shilling
= 42.359 pence
= 0.9926 pesos
value | mass of alloy (g) | purity | real content (g) |
---|---|---|---|
MXP/8MXR/8ESR | 27.07 | 90.3% | 24.44421 |
HKD/JPY | 26.9568-27.25 | 90% | 0.78 troy oz = 24.26071 g |
1 shilling | 5.6552 | 92.5% | 5.23106 |
1 shilling × 42⁄12 | 21.79608 | ||
1 shilling × 48⁄12 | 24.41161 |
I have repeated pointed out that HKD = JPY, and you agree that JPY = MXP. This web page says HKD = 4s 2d, and you says MXP = 4s 2d. Please explain to me why HKD ≠ MXP. -- ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 14:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I have added the conclusions derived above about the likely origin of the Japanese yen. However since these conclusions are the derivative of original research and have not yet been confirmed by sources, I have added the Original research warning to the section and tagged the statement about the Yen with a FACT tag. I'll be looking for sources which confirm this basis and would appreciate other's help in clarifying this matter. -- Jolliette Alice Bessette, -- 00:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems that we are now agreed as to the links between the peso and the various Asian currencies. However, it seems that there is still some doubt as to the link between the Mexican peso and the U.S. dollar. There has been a citation request on this point for a while now but, probably because the whole section keeps on being removed, no citation has been added. Perhaps if
Jolliette can leave the article alone for a few days, the necessary citation can be found and added to put an end to this discussion once and for all.
Dove1950 (
talk)
20:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
There's an element of truth in the current text, but it's quite confused. The 1785 resolution certainly did not make the Mexican Peso the official currency of the United States. In order to understand what was being resolved, you have to look back a couple of months to May 13, 1785 [4] and see the several options that were being considered. The July resolution chose one of these, with a silver dollar having a different weight in silver than any of the Spanish dollars then in use. The May session discusses the reasons for instituting a distinct US coinage. The weight of the dollar coin in silver was deliberately set to be similar to the Spanish dollar, so in that sense, the US dollar was based on the Spanish coin. But it's quite wrong to say that the Spanish or Mexican dollar was made the official currency of the United States. The article also mentions the first US dollars appearing several years later, which is when the first minted dollar coins were released. In the meantime, the states had been minting their own coins and a variety of foreign coins, including Spanish dollars and British coins, were used. I see nothing to indicate that the Spanish dollar was ever made an official currency. -- Reuben ( talk) 05:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to add my 2 centavos here, primarily to Jolliette's claim
Hong Kong dollar is the best example. Just because Mexico didn't exist as an independent country before 1810 doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't have its own currency before. At the same time, just because a colony is far away from the "motherland" and is much larger doesn't guarantee a distinct currency either. We need better reasons than political sovereignty. According to my 1801-1900 catalog, there are coins listed under Mexico before its independence. They were similar to Spanish coins of the same period, but not identical.
Regardless, we need to clearly define the start date of the Mexican peso. If we can achieve this, than there would be little to argue about. If the start date is some time in the early 1800s, then what currency did the Mexican peso replace? Spanish colonial real? Do we need separate articles for "New Spanish real" or "New Spanish peso"? I believe answering these questions are the first step towards resolving the relationship with the USD and CAD. -- ChoChoPK (球球PK) ( talk | contrib) 09:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)