"MARTA's history of poor financial performance has led MARTA to cut services, resulting in further complaints about the inconvenience of MARTA services. Weekend rail service can be especially limited; track work and single tracking may result in 30 minute train intervals." This seems to imply that track work and single tracking is the result of poor financial performance or budget issues when it is due to the normal need for track to be replaced after its useful lifespan has been reached. I think we need a new section dedicated to performance metrics. That would be the proper place for information about weekend service levels. AubieTurtle 22:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I suggest the section on Nathan Ford's corporate card misuse be deleted. Most of what's suggested there can't be verified. The previous AJC link is blocked and not GDFL. In fact anything referring to AJC should be considered highly questionable. Kokayi 23:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
None of those issues addresses my editorial concerns.
Yes, AJC may be a credible source but the article is not verifiable. The name of the article is not even cited. Even if a researcher went to a library or the AJC itself they would have a hard time researching the specific story being referred to.
But come on we're talking about 0.06667 - 4% of the total amount charged. That's hardly a scandel IMHO. I don't believe that merits an Encyclopedic entry for a matter that has been resolved. If a researcher can't achieve a good faith effort to read the story for themselves I think it fails the reliability test. If the editor had provided a byline, date, and headline with their citation, I would be more than satisfied.
I would like to recommend that this be the policy for sources like AJC. Even if the story is not online a researcher could at least visit a public library and be certain they are referencing the article being cited. It's the 'reliability' factor that draws my concern. Not the information presented.
Until I can read the entire article myself I don't feel comfortable with it. Because AJC is the source of the original report. Which was followed up by other media outlets. Who did the audit? Who authorized the audit? Isn't MARTA's board responsible for this transgression as well. Have previous MARTA GMs had these cards? I think there need to be a section critiquing the AJC's and Cox's persistant negative bias toward MARTA. Kokayi 05:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I am going to break down this into two main issues that Kokayi has raised. I would like to address each individually, since they are distinct concerns.
1. The credit card fraud section is unreliable/inaccurate/unverifiable because the AJC link has expired
2. The credit card fraud section is irrelevant/inconsequential/not a scandal.
Addressing concern #1: First of all I apologize for not citing the AJC article with the date and section. It appears that the AJC is not keeping articles online longer than a month or two, so it is a very good idea for all of us to start listing the date and section of the article so someone could go to the library to look at the article. Since Kokayi wanted a byline, date, and headline, here is the article summary which is availabe free to everyone in the AJC archives:
Date: August 18, 2006 Publication: Atlanta Journal-Constitution, The (GA) Page Number: D7 Word Count: 372
Former MARTA general manager Nathaniel Ford used his official credit card to pay for gas, meals, and other inappropriate expenses totaling about $1,000 during the five years he ran the transit system, officials said. One of Ford's executive assistants, Stephanie Smart, racked up $6,000 in improper charges between 2003 and 2005, using an official credit card to pay phone and cable bills as well as numerous gas and food expenses, MARTA officials said.
Ford, now in charge of San
For the record, I did read the entire article in the AJC back when I wrote the credit card scandal.
If you read the business chronicle article (or if you can access the original AJC article) you can see that there was an internal MARTA audit as well as an external audit. State Rep Harry Geisinger who sits on MARTOC asked for Ford's credit card records in February. I also think that if you compare the ATL business chronicle article you will find it is much lengthier and more indepth, suggesting to me that the author did a somewhat independent report of the AJC. I seriously doubt that the AJC, state represntatives, MARTA, and other news sources fabricated the story.
To address your many questions: The article does point out that the MARTA board was unaware of the credit cards, which infact does appear to reflect somewhat poorly on the board and/or MARTA organization that such spending would go unnoticed. If you read the entire business chronicle article you would have seen that the previous GM had the credit cards as well, but his spending wasn't an issue.
Please feel free to develop a section critiquing the "AJC and Cox's persistant negative bias towards MARTA." (I am not sure who Cox is though.)
Addressing concern #2: MARTA has always complained that they do not have enough money. During Ford's tenure routes were cut, jobs eliminated to save money. All the while he spent excessive amounts of money on lavish trips and dinners (see the same business chronicle article). While this may be inconsequential percentage wise to the entire MARTA budget, the point was that he was spending too much at a time where the organization was struggling. This all was going on while he was working there. After he leaves it comes out he put personal charges on his corporate card which was paid by MARTA. It doesn't matter if it is 0.000001% of all of his charges; it is still agaist MARTA policy and represents receiving payment for something he was not supposed to receive. I didn't use the word scandal in the article. It is a big deal because of the very fact he was the GM of the organization, an organization which is often characterized by MARTOC for being financially irresponsible. Biomedeng 02:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I've been adding little bits to this article over the past month, but I was wondering what can be done to improve the article on the quality scale. I've been looking at several of the other US rail transit articles trying to get a better idea of what can be added to the article. Here are some ideas I had:
I can pretty much handle most of this (except the history section) if everyone is in agreement, but I wanted to post here first to get any feedback. -- Biomedeng 02:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
On MARTA's how to use website ( http://www.itsmarta.com/howto/howto.htm), it makes no mention of the Breeze System at all. Quite odd. Just goes to show why much of this article is uncited or came from different sources other than MARTA. Thought that was interesting and figured I would share. Amazingracer 04:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The individual pages for each rail station are mostly stubs. Some station pages have had sections for nearby attractions added. I would like to suggest that we use half a mile as the standard distance for what can be included in the attractions section. We may also want to establish standards for minimum size of a retail shopping attraction for inclusion. I added the Edgewood Retail District to the Inman Park/Reynoldstown station because it is large and close to the station but I would like to avoid a situation where ever video store and QT gets listed. I would also like to know what others think of adding a section to the station pages for nearby large housing developments. AubieTurtle 16:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Kokayi seems to want the Lindbergh Ridestore removed from the MARTA page. I believe it is a useful piece of information, even if the location of the ridestore is not inside of the station. Amazingracer clarified the location of the ridestore (saying it was in the MARTA headquarters building). Although I am sure it would be of more benefit to patrons if the ridestore could be located directly at the station, the ridestore is very close to the north entrance of Lindbergh station and it is resonable to believe that some users would walk the 200 feet to the store. I don't agree that we should be removing information that may be confusing; if the location of the ridestore is confusing then work on editing the article to make it less confusing. Biomedeng 14:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Mediation requested here: Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-10-30_MARTA_RideStores Amazingracer 23:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Since it appears we have an ongoing edit war, everyone please be aware of the three revert rule which basically means you cannot revert an article back to a prior state more than three times in a 24 hour period. Biomedeng 01:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
This is just silly. In Google Earth I measured the distance from the Lindberg MARTA station to the front doot of MARTA Headquarters in which the RideStore is located. The distance is 0.04 miles. Even if one measures from the faregates to the HQ building, the distance is still less than one tenth of a mile. AubieTurtle 18:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Since the mediation cabal is experiencing heavy backlog and would probably be slightly upset for wasting their time on such a silly matter. Let's use a simple poll to determine if it should be noted that there is a Lindbergh Center RideStore, with the inclusion of the fact that it is in the MARTA HQ. As seen here: 17:22, 30 October 2006. Im still not eligible to peform a revert, so when an appropriate number of votes has been casted, please do the honors of reverting, and I will withdraw the Mediation request. Amazingracer 18:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the appropriate section below:
Today I noticed on my way out Arts Center that the BVMs did not show the little red line of text on the home screen saying "No Debit/Credit Cards Accepted". Just to make sure I acted like I was buying a fare and sure enough the BVm asked me to insert cash or a debit/credit card. I havent found anything on MARTA's website saying this is live so that it maybe posted here since right now its just original reasearch. So keep yours eyes peeled for a press release. Amazingracer 01:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Kitch updated the Heavy rail section to state: "MARTA is separating the orange and blue lines into four total lines, which are described below. Maps on this article still reflect the previous two-color line system."
First of all I have seen the new maps which use a red for the North Springs-Airport line, orange for Doraville-Airport, green for Bankhead-King, and blue for H. E. Holmes-Indian Creek, which are only present on *some* of the rehabilitiated MARTA cars.
However, without additional citations beyond personal observation (which is original research), you cannot make the claim on the article that the lines are being "separated" and that the colors are being changed. Please provide some proof that this is a formal change of the rail line designations and not simply just a change on the map for illustrative purposes only. Biomedeng 02:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I've seen the new maps... I don't very much like the new colour scheme... and it affects me b/c i have a tattoo of the "old" 2-colour system (looks much nicer IMO) i just got 2! months ago... :( so i'm sort of hoping they don't change... DeKalb 20:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Recently 76.17.92.32 deleted the following paragraph:
Georgia transportation policies and race have been compared to a two-tiered transportation apartheid. Billions are spent by the state to aid commutes of mostly Caucasian residents of the suburbs, while service cuts at MARTA have hurt mostly African Americans.
The only edit summary give was "Billions of dollars?". I reverted back the article to include the above paragraph. I did not write this section, but I do think it is fair to point out the descrepancies in funding between highways and public transit. The reference for this section does mention that the DOT spends billions a year on improving car commuting. I am not sure if this is the statewide budget or numbers just for Atlanta. I would be willing to research DOT numbers further if needed, or we could simply just state that the state spends a significant amount of money on car based trasnit, whereas they do not contribute money to MARTA. Although I do however not agree with the use of apartheid to describe the system (it's too extreme to me), it was used in the reference by someone who is an expert in Atlanta transit, so I think it is fair to state that it has been compared to a transportation apartheid. I am not looking to start another edit war, but felt the deletion was unwarranted without discussion. Feel free to add your thoughts and hopefully we can reach a consensus. Biomedeng 13:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I've got two burning questions about MARTA that I thought maybe some people could answer:
Thanks. Biomedeng 00:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Should we be incorporating this morning's derailment into a safety section in the artice? Here is the latest AJC article on the incident. Or is this kind of thing better suited for wikinews? Biomedeng 19:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't seem notable: nobody hurt, some delays. This kind of thing would add a lot of clutter to the article I think. -- Jolomo 21:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I have modified the page to show parking at Arts Center. I mention it here because MARTA maps do not show that there is a parking lot there. This is probably because the lot is small (33 spaces) but that doesn't change the fact that it does exist. MARTA's page for the Arts Center station does state that the parking lot exists so this is not original research. http://itsmarta.com/getthere/stations/artscenter.htm AubieTurtle 05:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
"MARTA's history of poor financial performance has led MARTA to cut services, resulting in further complaints about the inconvenience of MARTA services. Weekend rail service can be especially limited; track work and single tracking may result in 30 minute train intervals." This seems to imply that track work and single tracking is the result of poor financial performance or budget issues when it is due to the normal need for track to be replaced after its useful lifespan has been reached. I think we need a new section dedicated to performance metrics. That would be the proper place for information about weekend service levels. AubieTurtle 22:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I suggest the section on Nathan Ford's corporate card misuse be deleted. Most of what's suggested there can't be verified. The previous AJC link is blocked and not GDFL. In fact anything referring to AJC should be considered highly questionable. Kokayi 23:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
None of those issues addresses my editorial concerns.
Yes, AJC may be a credible source but the article is not verifiable. The name of the article is not even cited. Even if a researcher went to a library or the AJC itself they would have a hard time researching the specific story being referred to.
But come on we're talking about 0.06667 - 4% of the total amount charged. That's hardly a scandel IMHO. I don't believe that merits an Encyclopedic entry for a matter that has been resolved. If a researcher can't achieve a good faith effort to read the story for themselves I think it fails the reliability test. If the editor had provided a byline, date, and headline with their citation, I would be more than satisfied.
I would like to recommend that this be the policy for sources like AJC. Even if the story is not online a researcher could at least visit a public library and be certain they are referencing the article being cited. It's the 'reliability' factor that draws my concern. Not the information presented.
Until I can read the entire article myself I don't feel comfortable with it. Because AJC is the source of the original report. Which was followed up by other media outlets. Who did the audit? Who authorized the audit? Isn't MARTA's board responsible for this transgression as well. Have previous MARTA GMs had these cards? I think there need to be a section critiquing the AJC's and Cox's persistant negative bias toward MARTA. Kokayi 05:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I am going to break down this into two main issues that Kokayi has raised. I would like to address each individually, since they are distinct concerns.
1. The credit card fraud section is unreliable/inaccurate/unverifiable because the AJC link has expired
2. The credit card fraud section is irrelevant/inconsequential/not a scandal.
Addressing concern #1: First of all I apologize for not citing the AJC article with the date and section. It appears that the AJC is not keeping articles online longer than a month or two, so it is a very good idea for all of us to start listing the date and section of the article so someone could go to the library to look at the article. Since Kokayi wanted a byline, date, and headline, here is the article summary which is availabe free to everyone in the AJC archives:
Date: August 18, 2006 Publication: Atlanta Journal-Constitution, The (GA) Page Number: D7 Word Count: 372
Former MARTA general manager Nathaniel Ford used his official credit card to pay for gas, meals, and other inappropriate expenses totaling about $1,000 during the five years he ran the transit system, officials said. One of Ford's executive assistants, Stephanie Smart, racked up $6,000 in improper charges between 2003 and 2005, using an official credit card to pay phone and cable bills as well as numerous gas and food expenses, MARTA officials said.
Ford, now in charge of San
For the record, I did read the entire article in the AJC back when I wrote the credit card scandal.
If you read the business chronicle article (or if you can access the original AJC article) you can see that there was an internal MARTA audit as well as an external audit. State Rep Harry Geisinger who sits on MARTOC asked for Ford's credit card records in February. I also think that if you compare the ATL business chronicle article you will find it is much lengthier and more indepth, suggesting to me that the author did a somewhat independent report of the AJC. I seriously doubt that the AJC, state represntatives, MARTA, and other news sources fabricated the story.
To address your many questions: The article does point out that the MARTA board was unaware of the credit cards, which infact does appear to reflect somewhat poorly on the board and/or MARTA organization that such spending would go unnoticed. If you read the entire business chronicle article you would have seen that the previous GM had the credit cards as well, but his spending wasn't an issue.
Please feel free to develop a section critiquing the "AJC and Cox's persistant negative bias towards MARTA." (I am not sure who Cox is though.)
Addressing concern #2: MARTA has always complained that they do not have enough money. During Ford's tenure routes were cut, jobs eliminated to save money. All the while he spent excessive amounts of money on lavish trips and dinners (see the same business chronicle article). While this may be inconsequential percentage wise to the entire MARTA budget, the point was that he was spending too much at a time where the organization was struggling. This all was going on while he was working there. After he leaves it comes out he put personal charges on his corporate card which was paid by MARTA. It doesn't matter if it is 0.000001% of all of his charges; it is still agaist MARTA policy and represents receiving payment for something he was not supposed to receive. I didn't use the word scandal in the article. It is a big deal because of the very fact he was the GM of the organization, an organization which is often characterized by MARTOC for being financially irresponsible. Biomedeng 02:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I've been adding little bits to this article over the past month, but I was wondering what can be done to improve the article on the quality scale. I've been looking at several of the other US rail transit articles trying to get a better idea of what can be added to the article. Here are some ideas I had:
I can pretty much handle most of this (except the history section) if everyone is in agreement, but I wanted to post here first to get any feedback. -- Biomedeng 02:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
On MARTA's how to use website ( http://www.itsmarta.com/howto/howto.htm), it makes no mention of the Breeze System at all. Quite odd. Just goes to show why much of this article is uncited or came from different sources other than MARTA. Thought that was interesting and figured I would share. Amazingracer 04:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The individual pages for each rail station are mostly stubs. Some station pages have had sections for nearby attractions added. I would like to suggest that we use half a mile as the standard distance for what can be included in the attractions section. We may also want to establish standards for minimum size of a retail shopping attraction for inclusion. I added the Edgewood Retail District to the Inman Park/Reynoldstown station because it is large and close to the station but I would like to avoid a situation where ever video store and QT gets listed. I would also like to know what others think of adding a section to the station pages for nearby large housing developments. AubieTurtle 16:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Kokayi seems to want the Lindbergh Ridestore removed from the MARTA page. I believe it is a useful piece of information, even if the location of the ridestore is not inside of the station. Amazingracer clarified the location of the ridestore (saying it was in the MARTA headquarters building). Although I am sure it would be of more benefit to patrons if the ridestore could be located directly at the station, the ridestore is very close to the north entrance of Lindbergh station and it is resonable to believe that some users would walk the 200 feet to the store. I don't agree that we should be removing information that may be confusing; if the location of the ridestore is confusing then work on editing the article to make it less confusing. Biomedeng 14:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Mediation requested here: Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-10-30_MARTA_RideStores Amazingracer 23:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Since it appears we have an ongoing edit war, everyone please be aware of the three revert rule which basically means you cannot revert an article back to a prior state more than three times in a 24 hour period. Biomedeng 01:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
This is just silly. In Google Earth I measured the distance from the Lindberg MARTA station to the front doot of MARTA Headquarters in which the RideStore is located. The distance is 0.04 miles. Even if one measures from the faregates to the HQ building, the distance is still less than one tenth of a mile. AubieTurtle 18:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Since the mediation cabal is experiencing heavy backlog and would probably be slightly upset for wasting their time on such a silly matter. Let's use a simple poll to determine if it should be noted that there is a Lindbergh Center RideStore, with the inclusion of the fact that it is in the MARTA HQ. As seen here: 17:22, 30 October 2006. Im still not eligible to peform a revert, so when an appropriate number of votes has been casted, please do the honors of reverting, and I will withdraw the Mediation request. Amazingracer 18:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the appropriate section below:
Today I noticed on my way out Arts Center that the BVMs did not show the little red line of text on the home screen saying "No Debit/Credit Cards Accepted". Just to make sure I acted like I was buying a fare and sure enough the BVm asked me to insert cash or a debit/credit card. I havent found anything on MARTA's website saying this is live so that it maybe posted here since right now its just original reasearch. So keep yours eyes peeled for a press release. Amazingracer 01:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Kitch updated the Heavy rail section to state: "MARTA is separating the orange and blue lines into four total lines, which are described below. Maps on this article still reflect the previous two-color line system."
First of all I have seen the new maps which use a red for the North Springs-Airport line, orange for Doraville-Airport, green for Bankhead-King, and blue for H. E. Holmes-Indian Creek, which are only present on *some* of the rehabilitiated MARTA cars.
However, without additional citations beyond personal observation (which is original research), you cannot make the claim on the article that the lines are being "separated" and that the colors are being changed. Please provide some proof that this is a formal change of the rail line designations and not simply just a change on the map for illustrative purposes only. Biomedeng 02:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I've seen the new maps... I don't very much like the new colour scheme... and it affects me b/c i have a tattoo of the "old" 2-colour system (looks much nicer IMO) i just got 2! months ago... :( so i'm sort of hoping they don't change... DeKalb 20:15, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Recently 76.17.92.32 deleted the following paragraph:
Georgia transportation policies and race have been compared to a two-tiered transportation apartheid. Billions are spent by the state to aid commutes of mostly Caucasian residents of the suburbs, while service cuts at MARTA have hurt mostly African Americans.
The only edit summary give was "Billions of dollars?". I reverted back the article to include the above paragraph. I did not write this section, but I do think it is fair to point out the descrepancies in funding between highways and public transit. The reference for this section does mention that the DOT spends billions a year on improving car commuting. I am not sure if this is the statewide budget or numbers just for Atlanta. I would be willing to research DOT numbers further if needed, or we could simply just state that the state spends a significant amount of money on car based trasnit, whereas they do not contribute money to MARTA. Although I do however not agree with the use of apartheid to describe the system (it's too extreme to me), it was used in the reference by someone who is an expert in Atlanta transit, so I think it is fair to state that it has been compared to a transportation apartheid. I am not looking to start another edit war, but felt the deletion was unwarranted without discussion. Feel free to add your thoughts and hopefully we can reach a consensus. Biomedeng 13:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I've got two burning questions about MARTA that I thought maybe some people could answer:
Thanks. Biomedeng 00:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Should we be incorporating this morning's derailment into a safety section in the artice? Here is the latest AJC article on the incident. Or is this kind of thing better suited for wikinews? Biomedeng 19:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Doesn't seem notable: nobody hurt, some delays. This kind of thing would add a lot of clutter to the article I think. -- Jolomo 21:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I have modified the page to show parking at Arts Center. I mention it here because MARTA maps do not show that there is a parking lot there. This is probably because the lot is small (33 spaces) but that doesn't change the fact that it does exist. MARTA's page for the Arts Center station does state that the parking lot exists so this is not original research. http://itsmarta.com/getthere/stations/artscenter.htm AubieTurtle 05:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)