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Yamara
✉ 22:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Just listen and you'll easily hear it. And it's most definitely not (2+2)+(2+2)+1. Such a meter is extremely unlikely ever to appear in written music. It would just be written as (2+2)+(2+3). The final 8th note could simply be accented (in "I Hung My Head", the final 8th note features as an unaccented note the final beat, which is also a simple beat). On another note, the song also features a true polymeter - hi-hat is in common time (could also be analysed as a (4/4+5/4)+... hypermeasure laid over a (9/8+9/8)+... hypermeasure; that could be called a poly-hypermeter) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.189.218.27 ( talk) 18:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
That song is definitely a good example of an additive rhythm, and in total agreement with the above, it's not (4+4+1)/8 but sounds most as (2+3+2+2)/8 (the bass guitar and percussion make this quite clear). However I found here: http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/scorchVPE.asp?ppn=sc0010568 that it is notated as alternating 4/8 and 5/8 bars which doesn't seem to make much sense as the bass is tied into the second, fourth, sixth bars and so on; starting with a 5/8 would make more sense. Maybe someone with access to the original sheet music or Sting's brain could clarify what the notation is? ;) Mathi80 ( talk) 23:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I think somewhere should be mentioned that a piece in 3/4 time stands for three 'beats' per bar made up of quarter notes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.89.166.51 ( talk) 23:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Re Logictheo: 3/4 vs 3/8 is a matter of tempo and notation in my mind, not of metre.
Having had a fair bit of music theory in the country of Bach, Beethoven, Brahms and Wagner where I grew up, I can say that I never heard of this distinction between simple and compound metre, and would be interested if the concept exists outside of English-native countries. Of course I learnt the difference between e.g. a 3/4 and a 6/8 metre, being arithmetically the same but musically very different, in that one is divided into three, the other into two beats. The 3/4 would be a simple meter, as each beat can be divided into multiples of 2, while the 6/8 is a compound metre, where each beat is divided into 3 or multiples thereof. Put simply, if the note filling or occupying one complete beat of a bar has to be dotted (in the 6/8 this is a dotted quaver (British English), or dotted fourth note (US-English)), than you have a compound metre. But of course there is much musical appeal to be gained from blurring those lines, as happened right from the Renaissance (e.g. in the Tourdion, Publié par Pierre Attaingnant, Paris 1530) to Bernstein, as in the West Side Story example given in the main article. Mathi80 (talk) 22:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathi80 ( talk • contribs)
I've a bit of a problem with this:
Firstly, I'm not convinced that those time signatures really became so much more common in the late 19th century - there are certainly no shortage of examples of them in earlier music: just to take an example from something I can see the score of from where I'm sitting, the Loure from Bach's third violin partita is in 6/4 and the gigue of the second is in 12/8 (so is the Siciliano from the first sonata). Secondly, I don't believe the stated reason for using these time signature - the reason to use any time signature is to give the piece a certain pattern of stressed and unstressed beats. I don't see how this affects phrase length - whether you write in 6/4 or 6/8, it's still natural to write four (or eight, or 16) bar phrases, surely. Therefore, I think this bit should be taken out the article. Objections? -- Camembert 10 Jan 2004
Yes, objections. A four bar phrase of 3/4 is 4*3=12 beats. A 4 bar phrase of 6/4 is 6*4=24 beats.
To be pedantically accurate, the baroque had more common use of a variety of meters which became less common in the period immediately after Haydn and Mozart, and then came back again.
Empirically counting up the examples in the symphonic rep shows that these longer measures (3/2 etc) become more common starting in the 1890's. There aren't any examples in Brahms for example in his string chamber music, and I can't recall any in his symphonies or concerti off of hand - though I could be wrong, I'm not a big student of Brahms. Whereas Mahler's 3rd first movement has a 3/2 section, Strauss Don Q variation 8 is in 8/4, Sibelius' Swan of Tuonela is in 9/4, in addition to the examples sited. There are numerous others.
The precise way of putting would be to say that starting in the late 18th century 4/4, 3/4, 2/2 and 6/8 took over the world and only later did other signatures make a comeback. Stirling Newberry
The following tables may be a bit much for the article, but should help someone:
Duple: | Triple: | |
Simple: | beats divided in two, two beats per measure | beats divided in three, two beats per measure |
Compound: | beats divided in two, three beats per measure | beats divided in three, three beats per measure |
Beats divided in two: | Beats divided in three: | |
Two beats per measure: | simple duple | simple triple |
Three beats per measure: | compound duple | compound triple |
Hyacinth 23:16, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hi all,
Here is a question on terminology. One may find a simultaneous appearance of, say, 24/16 time and common (C) time in very "classical" music, e.g. in J.S.Bach's and other baroque composers' organ chorales. That is - the chorale melody in the bass (pedal) is notated in common time (C) while the upper voices (manuals) are notated in 24/16. In fact, of course it is not a polymeter in a very strict sence of the word, this is a kind of convenient notation (traced back, actually, to Middle Ages mensural divisions) assuming that each bar of 24/16 corresponds to four beats of C by four groups of 6 sixteenths (24 = 4*6). Using more "modern" notation, one could notate the time signature C in all voices and use four sextuplets instead of 24/16 (that may be inconvenient if the rythms of upper voices are more or less reach), or write 24/16 in all voices, notating the chorale melody by dotted quarters instead of normal. I hope I was clear :).
The question is - may this combination be called, nevertheless, "polymetrical" (or, "graphically polymetrical", "pseudo-polimetrical", "formally polymetrical"), since formally it contains a simultaneous use of differently notated metres (in sence of "time signatures"). If not, is it possible to invent a term for such a situation? Anyway, I guess this such a situation is treated as a "polymetre" from viewpoint of computer score-editors, like Sibelius :).
I removed the above paragraph from the introduction because it doesn't mention metre. Hyacinth 07:01, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, there are several definitions of the term "compound". The one used in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries is very important, but not well known. According to this theoruy (and practice), a compound measure is composed of two simple measures, i.e. two 2/4 become one 4/4, or two 3/8 become one 6/8. Thus, one compound measure contains the musical material of two simple measures, and two downbeats comparable in strength. A four-mm. phrase will appear in the score as a two-mm. phrase, and cadences will occur in the second half of m. 2. (Instead of at the beginning of m. 4.) Theories of phrase rhythm (e.g. Koch, Versuch einer Anleitung zur Composition or Riepel, Anfangsgründe der Tonsetzkunst) therefore recommend counting every notated measure as two mm. when comparing phrase-lengths. In compound-meter pieces, Cadences will normally occur in mid-measure, but phrases with an odd number of measures as well as elisions can cause cadences to fall on the first downbeat (whereas phrases will begin in mid-measure). It also frequently happens that a recapitulation, compared with the exposition, appears displaced by half a measure. In those cases, there is no reason to believe that the recap should be accented differently.
The phenomenon described in the main article was known as "mixed meter". The mixed 6/8 (a 2/4 with triple subdivision) is not to be confused with the compound 6/8 (3/8 + 3/8), and the compound 4/4 (2/4 + 2/4) is different from 2/4 and the modern notion of 4/4 (with hierarchical accentuation). The notational practice of compound meter dates back to the invention of the barline in the sixteenth century, and slowly came out of use in the nineteenth century.
System of meters according to Koch:
Simple duple (two beats, duple subdivision)...........2/4, 2/2
Simple duple mixed (two beats, triple subdiv.)........6/8(a), 6/4
Simple triple (three beats, duple subdivision)........3/8, 3/4, 3/2
Simple triple mixed (three beats, triple subdivision).9/8
Compound duple (two 2/4, 2/2 between barlines)........4/4, 4/2
Compound duple mixed (two 6/8)........................12/8
compound triple (two 3/8).............................6/8(b)
compound triple mixed (two 9/8, not in use)...........18/8
(Unfortunately, a table of this would have to be three-dimensional)
Example of a compound 4/4: Haydn, Piana Sonata No. 62 in E flat, Hob. XVI:52
Example of a compound 6/8: Mozart, Piano Sonata in A, K. 331
The definition of "compound" given in the main article is IMHO a corrupt use, although quite pervasive. I have not yet had time to trackdown the history of calling mixed compound.
"Compound meter [...] is a time signature or meter in which each measure is divided into three or more parts, or two uneven parts (as opposed to two even parts, called simple metre)." But then the first example given is "6/8, divided into two equal parts". So is 6/8 compound or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.244.158.242 ( talk) 09:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
In Music Learning Theory, meters are described as usual when the macrobeats (the "main" beat, if you will) are of equal temporal length; unusual meters occur when the macrobeats are of unequal temporal length. Also, meters may be duple, triple, or combined, depending on how the macrobeats divide into microbeats (what is often called "subdividing" by others).
So, for example, a rhythm pattern composed of quarter notes and paired eighth notes and notated in 2/4 or 4/4 would be usual duple meter; a pattern notated in 6/8 using dotted quarters and eighths only would be usual triple meter. Usual combined meter would occur, say, in 4/4 if you had two quarter notes followed by a 3-quarter-note triplet. Unusual meters might be notated in 5/8 or 7/8, for example. In these meters, one of the macrobeats ("big beats") is longer (temporally) than the others in each measure.
All of this terminology makes complete sense (to me) if one thinks in terms of conducting. A 5/8 (or 6/8) at even a reasonably moderate tempo will likely be conducted "in 2". Many pieces notated in 3/4 are conducted "in 1". The conductor's beat = the macrobeat in most instances. Each macrobeat can contain either two or three (only!) microbeats.
I think including some of this information / alternate terminology in the article would be helpful, but I didn't want to make such a drastic addition without discussing it here first. If it helps, here's one source: http://giml.org/mlt_lsa_rhythmcontent.php Better sources would include Gordon's books. Thoughts?? OscarTheCat3 ( talk) 21:11, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
As opposed to the quantitative aspects formed by rhythm (long-short), metre focusses on speechlike qualitative aspects (stressed-unstressed), very often corresponding with the actually inaudible 'bar-lines' (see Hugo Riemann). Metre is what becomes audible through stressing and can use as a guidance (like day-night), very often regular but not necessarily, in the perception of time and therefore organize rhythmical perception. The coinciding of metrical accentuation with barlines and timesignature increased until the classical period (e.g. in Bachs h-moll messe in the opening fugue, half of the music reoccurs shifted by half a bar provoking no auditive changes whatsoever). (Filip C.L.R.)
This section was added as subsection 1.3 for people to be able to listen to various metre sounds. Logictheo 12:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I know that in my "the Celebration Hymnal" that I have, and most other hymnals, at the end of each hymn, there's a decimal metre. For example, "Away in a Manger" has "11.11.11.11." metre, and All the Way My Savior Leads Me" has "8.7.8.7.D.". Does anybody know any information about this way of displaying metre? thanks! -- Amp e rsand2006 ( & ) 15:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The Polymetre section says that in the song Kashmir, the drums are in 4/4 while the melodic instruments are in 3/4. Is this description counting each closed high-hat hit as an eighth note? If so, why is it in 4/4? The drums basically repeat every 2 quarter notes and they match up (phrase wise) with the other instruments every 6. Granted it has a "4/4 feel", but wouldn't 6/4 or 2/4 make more sense? Also, at this tempo wouldn't the melodic part be in 3/8 or 6/8?
On the other hand, if every closed high-hat hit is to be a quarter note (in which case the time signatures in the article do make sense), doesn't that seem like an abnormally fast way of notating what feels like a mid-tempo song?
Not terribly important, but I'm curious.-- Lf1033 11:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I just added the following to the Examples section:
"Touch And Go", a hit single by The Cars, has polymetric verses, with the drums and bass playing in 5/4, while the guitar, synthesizer, and vocals are in 4/4 (the choruses are entirely in 4/4.)
First of all, I feel that's badly written -- anyone want to clean it up? I'm still confused between "polyrhythm" and "polymeter". And I didn't know how to express another aspect of the song's tricky verses, which is that the synth and guitar, while in 4/4, play on the "off" eighths, the "and"s, rather than the one-two-three-fours. I don't know how to say that properly.
Secondly, this song hit #37 on the US Top Forty . . . and I'm wondering if that makes it the first (or only) polyrhythmic hit single?!? That'd be a bit of trivia worth inclusion in this article, and the band's article as well . . . a notable achievement for a band not known for tricky progressive arrangements. -- 63.25.113.207 17:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The user who added the Audio Samples of different beats should clear that bit up. It looks terribly unprofessional. This is an encyclopaedia, remember, and it sounds a bit personalised. (Please do that, I would do it myself, but I haven't the heart to delete another user's changes) Watto the jazzman 06:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I added King Crimson as a notable example of polymeter in modern music. They were - after all - among the first in Rock/"alternative" music to use highly complex arrangements, harmonies, meters, melodies and rhythms. And - if I may say so - their usage of polymeter is far more complex than that of Meshuggah. Don't get me wrong, I love Meshuggah - but it's (as stated) essentially an unusual, "high-number", uneven meter (like 23/32) - and a 4/4 over it... the 4/4 is really almost always the same. So, I thought that informing the reader of another, earlier and more complex usage of polymeter in "rock"-music (or rather its derivates and descendants) would be a valuable addition.
Thanks for changing modern to postmodern in my addition. Didn't think of that . -MikeB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.65.148.250 ( talk) 21:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
What in the article may be original research and needs to be verified or cited? Hyacinth ( talk) 02:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
As of the current revision, the section, "Rhythmic meter" says that that traditional western music has "four different time signatures in common use." None of those common time signatures appear to allow for 4/4. They list the top number as being either 2, 3, 6, or 9. But isn't 4/4 the most common meter in Western music, especially during the period specified? Now, I don't honestly know whether it could fall into one of the categories listed---as described, it certainly would not appear to. But I could be wrong. I don't know. I came to this article to learn about meter, not to edit about it. But I can see only one of three possibilities here: I'm stark wrong about 4/4 being one of the most important meters in Western music, or the article assumes I know enough about music to calculate 4/4 out of one of the examples listed (despite explicitly stating the upper number much be such and such), or someone who knows the subject should probably put that in there. 24.24.81.53 ( talk) 07:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello JK! The above says; "Metre is that which concerneth the proportions of the foot in measure (that is, musical mensuration results from the short and long of the poetic foot - Red). Musical metre consists of (thesis and arsis), that is, in the raising and lowering of syllabic quantity." The last few words I do not quite get - "so as to correct and produce them"? This is late, Italianate Latin, sorry. Redheylin ( talk) 04:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Please see [here| http://www.enotes.com/music-encyclopedia/polymeter] the view that regularly alternating rhythms are "changing" metres, not polymetres. I am therefore removing the bit about Bernstein's Courante. Redheylin ( talk) 18:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph below has also been excised since it creates unrefd distinctions which cannot therefore be used in the article's structure
Redheylin ( talk) 00:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
It looks to me like Meter (hymn) doesn't contain anything which would more easily fit in this article. Therefore, I am proposing that they be merged. John Carter ( talk) 20:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I also agree that Meter (hymn) and Meter (music) should *not* be merged. In music it refers much more to the rhythm and beat of a piece, while in hymnody it references the poetic setting of the hymn text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.147.110.212 ( talk) 04:25, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Even though the word is the same its meaning in the two contexts is quite different. Merging the two articles would probably complicate things and possibly confuse the reader. I'm removing the merger template since it looks like the template has been up for the a while and most of the people who left comments agree that it should not be merged.-- dbolton ( talk) 02:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The referencing on this article seems to have been done in a traditional literature format: "(Scholes 1977)" as opposed to the standard Wikipedia format (see Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners). To me this interupts the reader's flow and makes the article less accessible (I also note discussions above - under the heading "4/4" - regarding the perceived inaccessiblity of the article). I propose reformatting the references as per the Wikipedia guidelines.-- Perry Comb-over ( talk) 22:37, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I have just reverted edits made by User:Redheylin, an editor whose integrity I respect, on two grounds. First, and most important, the changes were from American norms (-ize endings) to one British norm (-ise endings), on grounds of "British spelling priority" for this article. The article's very title and lead sentence, however, both give the American variant of the subject: "meter", instead of the British "metre". About two years ago (see further up on this discussion page) this matter was discussed, with no consensus having been reached. When the article was created, the spelling indeed was "metre", and this title was subsequently altered to the American variant. Shall we now re-open discussion of whether this ought to be reverted to the original (UK) spelling?
Second, it is incorrect to claim that -ise endings for words such as "colonise", "centralise", and "theorise" are the UK standard, though practice has been drifting in that direction for more than half a century now. Conservative British usage (as represented by the Oxford University Press and The Times) prefers the -ize form in the great majority of cases, while allowing that -ise is a variant for many such words ("analyse" is the major exception, on the etymological principle that it entered English via French, and not directly from the original Greek); the more up-to-date Guardian style guide, on the contrary, accepts only the -ise form, except in words like "prize" and "size", where it is not a question of a suffix, in any case.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 23:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I think you have, indeed, missed something. I did not mention the issue of "practice" vs. "practise" in UK vs. US usage, which is wholly outside of this discussion. (In fact, there is only a single occurrence in the entire article of either word and, since it is a noun in the phrase "common practice period", there is no question of UK vs. American usage. My statement, "practice has been drifting in that direction …", might have been differently rendered as "UK usage has been drifting in that direction …".) The spelling changes Redheylin made were from "organization" to "organisation" and "organizing" to "organising", claiming "brit engl priority" in the edit summary. I am merely asking whether Redheylin (or anyone else) wishes to re-open the debate over reverting the spelling of the article's title to "Metre (music)". It was changed now quite a long time ago without any reason being given, subsequently debated but not resolved, and I took Redheylin's claim of "brit engl priority" to be a subtle way of suggesting that this title ought to be reverted. Perhaps I am reading too much into it.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 22:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
24.16.215.169 ( talk) 03:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
In what way are the inline citations in this article "not properly formatted"?— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 00:15, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
I just read over the arguments for merging the compound meter article into this one. However, I believe that the subject can be expanded upon (especially regarding the recent addition of citation needed warnings). This article is lengthy as it is and it's inappropriate to lengthen the compound meter part more than it is already. So with that, I say we should reinstate Compound meter (music) and shorten the actual length of the blurb in this article. -- Devin.chaloux ( talk) 05:35, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
I have initiated a formal RM action to move Musical scale to Scale (music). Contributions and comments would be very welcome; decisions of this kind could affect the choice of title for many music theory articles.
Noetica Tea? 00:12, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Is it the cymbals or the drum the denotes the time in "Simple triple drum pattern: divides each of three beats into two"? Is there a single(same) note example? 117.207.238.60 ( talk) 17:19, 18 September 2014 (UTC)class=c
The opening sentence contains at least four problems.
"Hypermeter is large-scale meter (as opposed to surface-level meter) created by hypermeasures which consist of hyperbeats ( Stein 2005, 329 )."
I'll add a reference to the brief discussion of Berstein's America—it comes from London (1995).
I'm compromised here. I believe the field is a bit confused about the subject, which therefore needs cautious treatment in a WP article (somewhat distanced from and inclusive of the various mind-sets). In the future, an offspring article on hypermetre will be needed—although it might be good to let the subject develop over the next year or two. :-) Tony (talk) 03:27, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
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An IP just had a little spree of changing "measure" to "bar" which I reverted according to various principles including my personal perception that it was a bit rude. However, I do note that alongside "measure" we do also say "metre". Is this article actually in a specific dialect? Canadian??? (Apologies if this was much-discussed six years ago and I missed the memo.) Best wishes to all DBaK ( talk) 09:18, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
In
Hypermetre, in the "Hard Day's Night" example, shouldn't the word hard be 2
4 since it is a half note?
Squandermania (
talk) 16:06, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
"Hypermetre is large-scale metre (as opposed to surface-level metre) created by hypermeasures, which consist of hyperbeats (Stein 2005, 329). "Hypermeter is meter, with all its inherent characteristics, at the level where bars act as beats" (Neal 2000, 115). For example, the four-bar hyperbar is the prototypical structure for country music, in and against which country songs work (Neal 2000, 115). In some styles, two- and four-bar hypermetres are common."
Neal gets a good going over as a ref. But why?
Neal, Jocelyn (2000). "Songwriter's Signature, Artist's Imprint: The Metric Structure of a Country Song". In Wolfe, Charles K.; Akenson, James E. Country Music Annual 2000. Lexington, KY: University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 0-8131-0989-2.
It's very narrowly scoped. London 2004/2012, Temperley, and many others are more balanced. Rothstein isn't even mentioned in the whole article. Tony (talk) 06:06, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Want to help write or improve articles about Time? Join
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—
Yamara
✉ 22:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Just listen and you'll easily hear it. And it's most definitely not (2+2)+(2+2)+1. Such a meter is extremely unlikely ever to appear in written music. It would just be written as (2+2)+(2+3). The final 8th note could simply be accented (in "I Hung My Head", the final 8th note features as an unaccented note the final beat, which is also a simple beat). On another note, the song also features a true polymeter - hi-hat is in common time (could also be analysed as a (4/4+5/4)+... hypermeasure laid over a (9/8+9/8)+... hypermeasure; that could be called a poly-hypermeter) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.189.218.27 ( talk) 18:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
That song is definitely a good example of an additive rhythm, and in total agreement with the above, it's not (4+4+1)/8 but sounds most as (2+3+2+2)/8 (the bass guitar and percussion make this quite clear). However I found here: http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/scorchVPE.asp?ppn=sc0010568 that it is notated as alternating 4/8 and 5/8 bars which doesn't seem to make much sense as the bass is tied into the second, fourth, sixth bars and so on; starting with a 5/8 would make more sense. Maybe someone with access to the original sheet music or Sting's brain could clarify what the notation is? ;) Mathi80 ( talk) 23:14, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I think somewhere should be mentioned that a piece in 3/4 time stands for three 'beats' per bar made up of quarter notes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.89.166.51 ( talk) 23:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Re Logictheo: 3/4 vs 3/8 is a matter of tempo and notation in my mind, not of metre.
Having had a fair bit of music theory in the country of Bach, Beethoven, Brahms and Wagner where I grew up, I can say that I never heard of this distinction between simple and compound metre, and would be interested if the concept exists outside of English-native countries. Of course I learnt the difference between e.g. a 3/4 and a 6/8 metre, being arithmetically the same but musically very different, in that one is divided into three, the other into two beats. The 3/4 would be a simple meter, as each beat can be divided into multiples of 2, while the 6/8 is a compound metre, where each beat is divided into 3 or multiples thereof. Put simply, if the note filling or occupying one complete beat of a bar has to be dotted (in the 6/8 this is a dotted quaver (British English), or dotted fourth note (US-English)), than you have a compound metre. But of course there is much musical appeal to be gained from blurring those lines, as happened right from the Renaissance (e.g. in the Tourdion, Publié par Pierre Attaingnant, Paris 1530) to Bernstein, as in the West Side Story example given in the main article. Mathi80 (talk) 22:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathi80 ( talk • contribs)
I've a bit of a problem with this:
Firstly, I'm not convinced that those time signatures really became so much more common in the late 19th century - there are certainly no shortage of examples of them in earlier music: just to take an example from something I can see the score of from where I'm sitting, the Loure from Bach's third violin partita is in 6/4 and the gigue of the second is in 12/8 (so is the Siciliano from the first sonata). Secondly, I don't believe the stated reason for using these time signature - the reason to use any time signature is to give the piece a certain pattern of stressed and unstressed beats. I don't see how this affects phrase length - whether you write in 6/4 or 6/8, it's still natural to write four (or eight, or 16) bar phrases, surely. Therefore, I think this bit should be taken out the article. Objections? -- Camembert 10 Jan 2004
Yes, objections. A four bar phrase of 3/4 is 4*3=12 beats. A 4 bar phrase of 6/4 is 6*4=24 beats.
To be pedantically accurate, the baroque had more common use of a variety of meters which became less common in the period immediately after Haydn and Mozart, and then came back again.
Empirically counting up the examples in the symphonic rep shows that these longer measures (3/2 etc) become more common starting in the 1890's. There aren't any examples in Brahms for example in his string chamber music, and I can't recall any in his symphonies or concerti off of hand - though I could be wrong, I'm not a big student of Brahms. Whereas Mahler's 3rd first movement has a 3/2 section, Strauss Don Q variation 8 is in 8/4, Sibelius' Swan of Tuonela is in 9/4, in addition to the examples sited. There are numerous others.
The precise way of putting would be to say that starting in the late 18th century 4/4, 3/4, 2/2 and 6/8 took over the world and only later did other signatures make a comeback. Stirling Newberry
The following tables may be a bit much for the article, but should help someone:
Duple: | Triple: | |
Simple: | beats divided in two, two beats per measure | beats divided in three, two beats per measure |
Compound: | beats divided in two, three beats per measure | beats divided in three, three beats per measure |
Beats divided in two: | Beats divided in three: | |
Two beats per measure: | simple duple | simple triple |
Three beats per measure: | compound duple | compound triple |
Hyacinth 23:16, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hi all,
Here is a question on terminology. One may find a simultaneous appearance of, say, 24/16 time and common (C) time in very "classical" music, e.g. in J.S.Bach's and other baroque composers' organ chorales. That is - the chorale melody in the bass (pedal) is notated in common time (C) while the upper voices (manuals) are notated in 24/16. In fact, of course it is not a polymeter in a very strict sence of the word, this is a kind of convenient notation (traced back, actually, to Middle Ages mensural divisions) assuming that each bar of 24/16 corresponds to four beats of C by four groups of 6 sixteenths (24 = 4*6). Using more "modern" notation, one could notate the time signature C in all voices and use four sextuplets instead of 24/16 (that may be inconvenient if the rythms of upper voices are more or less reach), or write 24/16 in all voices, notating the chorale melody by dotted quarters instead of normal. I hope I was clear :).
The question is - may this combination be called, nevertheless, "polymetrical" (or, "graphically polymetrical", "pseudo-polimetrical", "formally polymetrical"), since formally it contains a simultaneous use of differently notated metres (in sence of "time signatures"). If not, is it possible to invent a term for such a situation? Anyway, I guess this such a situation is treated as a "polymetre" from viewpoint of computer score-editors, like Sibelius :).
I removed the above paragraph from the introduction because it doesn't mention metre. Hyacinth 07:01, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, there are several definitions of the term "compound". The one used in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries is very important, but not well known. According to this theoruy (and practice), a compound measure is composed of two simple measures, i.e. two 2/4 become one 4/4, or two 3/8 become one 6/8. Thus, one compound measure contains the musical material of two simple measures, and two downbeats comparable in strength. A four-mm. phrase will appear in the score as a two-mm. phrase, and cadences will occur in the second half of m. 2. (Instead of at the beginning of m. 4.) Theories of phrase rhythm (e.g. Koch, Versuch einer Anleitung zur Composition or Riepel, Anfangsgründe der Tonsetzkunst) therefore recommend counting every notated measure as two mm. when comparing phrase-lengths. In compound-meter pieces, Cadences will normally occur in mid-measure, but phrases with an odd number of measures as well as elisions can cause cadences to fall on the first downbeat (whereas phrases will begin in mid-measure). It also frequently happens that a recapitulation, compared with the exposition, appears displaced by half a measure. In those cases, there is no reason to believe that the recap should be accented differently.
The phenomenon described in the main article was known as "mixed meter". The mixed 6/8 (a 2/4 with triple subdivision) is not to be confused with the compound 6/8 (3/8 + 3/8), and the compound 4/4 (2/4 + 2/4) is different from 2/4 and the modern notion of 4/4 (with hierarchical accentuation). The notational practice of compound meter dates back to the invention of the barline in the sixteenth century, and slowly came out of use in the nineteenth century.
System of meters according to Koch:
Simple duple (two beats, duple subdivision)...........2/4, 2/2
Simple duple mixed (two beats, triple subdiv.)........6/8(a), 6/4
Simple triple (three beats, duple subdivision)........3/8, 3/4, 3/2
Simple triple mixed (three beats, triple subdivision).9/8
Compound duple (two 2/4, 2/2 between barlines)........4/4, 4/2
Compound duple mixed (two 6/8)........................12/8
compound triple (two 3/8).............................6/8(b)
compound triple mixed (two 9/8, not in use)...........18/8
(Unfortunately, a table of this would have to be three-dimensional)
Example of a compound 4/4: Haydn, Piana Sonata No. 62 in E flat, Hob. XVI:52
Example of a compound 6/8: Mozart, Piano Sonata in A, K. 331
The definition of "compound" given in the main article is IMHO a corrupt use, although quite pervasive. I have not yet had time to trackdown the history of calling mixed compound.
"Compound meter [...] is a time signature or meter in which each measure is divided into three or more parts, or two uneven parts (as opposed to two even parts, called simple metre)." But then the first example given is "6/8, divided into two equal parts". So is 6/8 compound or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.244.158.242 ( talk) 09:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
In Music Learning Theory, meters are described as usual when the macrobeats (the "main" beat, if you will) are of equal temporal length; unusual meters occur when the macrobeats are of unequal temporal length. Also, meters may be duple, triple, or combined, depending on how the macrobeats divide into microbeats (what is often called "subdividing" by others).
So, for example, a rhythm pattern composed of quarter notes and paired eighth notes and notated in 2/4 or 4/4 would be usual duple meter; a pattern notated in 6/8 using dotted quarters and eighths only would be usual triple meter. Usual combined meter would occur, say, in 4/4 if you had two quarter notes followed by a 3-quarter-note triplet. Unusual meters might be notated in 5/8 or 7/8, for example. In these meters, one of the macrobeats ("big beats") is longer (temporally) than the others in each measure.
All of this terminology makes complete sense (to me) if one thinks in terms of conducting. A 5/8 (or 6/8) at even a reasonably moderate tempo will likely be conducted "in 2". Many pieces notated in 3/4 are conducted "in 1". The conductor's beat = the macrobeat in most instances. Each macrobeat can contain either two or three (only!) microbeats.
I think including some of this information / alternate terminology in the article would be helpful, but I didn't want to make such a drastic addition without discussing it here first. If it helps, here's one source: http://giml.org/mlt_lsa_rhythmcontent.php Better sources would include Gordon's books. Thoughts?? OscarTheCat3 ( talk) 21:11, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
As opposed to the quantitative aspects formed by rhythm (long-short), metre focusses on speechlike qualitative aspects (stressed-unstressed), very often corresponding with the actually inaudible 'bar-lines' (see Hugo Riemann). Metre is what becomes audible through stressing and can use as a guidance (like day-night), very often regular but not necessarily, in the perception of time and therefore organize rhythmical perception. The coinciding of metrical accentuation with barlines and timesignature increased until the classical period (e.g. in Bachs h-moll messe in the opening fugue, half of the music reoccurs shifted by half a bar provoking no auditive changes whatsoever). (Filip C.L.R.)
This section was added as subsection 1.3 for people to be able to listen to various metre sounds. Logictheo 12:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I know that in my "the Celebration Hymnal" that I have, and most other hymnals, at the end of each hymn, there's a decimal metre. For example, "Away in a Manger" has "11.11.11.11." metre, and All the Way My Savior Leads Me" has "8.7.8.7.D.". Does anybody know any information about this way of displaying metre? thanks! -- Amp e rsand2006 ( & ) 15:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The Polymetre section says that in the song Kashmir, the drums are in 4/4 while the melodic instruments are in 3/4. Is this description counting each closed high-hat hit as an eighth note? If so, why is it in 4/4? The drums basically repeat every 2 quarter notes and they match up (phrase wise) with the other instruments every 6. Granted it has a "4/4 feel", but wouldn't 6/4 or 2/4 make more sense? Also, at this tempo wouldn't the melodic part be in 3/8 or 6/8?
On the other hand, if every closed high-hat hit is to be a quarter note (in which case the time signatures in the article do make sense), doesn't that seem like an abnormally fast way of notating what feels like a mid-tempo song?
Not terribly important, but I'm curious.-- Lf1033 11:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I just added the following to the Examples section:
"Touch And Go", a hit single by The Cars, has polymetric verses, with the drums and bass playing in 5/4, while the guitar, synthesizer, and vocals are in 4/4 (the choruses are entirely in 4/4.)
First of all, I feel that's badly written -- anyone want to clean it up? I'm still confused between "polyrhythm" and "polymeter". And I didn't know how to express another aspect of the song's tricky verses, which is that the synth and guitar, while in 4/4, play on the "off" eighths, the "and"s, rather than the one-two-three-fours. I don't know how to say that properly.
Secondly, this song hit #37 on the US Top Forty . . . and I'm wondering if that makes it the first (or only) polyrhythmic hit single?!? That'd be a bit of trivia worth inclusion in this article, and the band's article as well . . . a notable achievement for a band not known for tricky progressive arrangements. -- 63.25.113.207 17:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The user who added the Audio Samples of different beats should clear that bit up. It looks terribly unprofessional. This is an encyclopaedia, remember, and it sounds a bit personalised. (Please do that, I would do it myself, but I haven't the heart to delete another user's changes) Watto the jazzman 06:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I added King Crimson as a notable example of polymeter in modern music. They were - after all - among the first in Rock/"alternative" music to use highly complex arrangements, harmonies, meters, melodies and rhythms. And - if I may say so - their usage of polymeter is far more complex than that of Meshuggah. Don't get me wrong, I love Meshuggah - but it's (as stated) essentially an unusual, "high-number", uneven meter (like 23/32) - and a 4/4 over it... the 4/4 is really almost always the same. So, I thought that informing the reader of another, earlier and more complex usage of polymeter in "rock"-music (or rather its derivates and descendants) would be a valuable addition.
Thanks for changing modern to postmodern in my addition. Didn't think of that . -MikeB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.65.148.250 ( talk) 21:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
What in the article may be original research and needs to be verified or cited? Hyacinth ( talk) 02:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
As of the current revision, the section, "Rhythmic meter" says that that traditional western music has "four different time signatures in common use." None of those common time signatures appear to allow for 4/4. They list the top number as being either 2, 3, 6, or 9. But isn't 4/4 the most common meter in Western music, especially during the period specified? Now, I don't honestly know whether it could fall into one of the categories listed---as described, it certainly would not appear to. But I could be wrong. I don't know. I came to this article to learn about meter, not to edit about it. But I can see only one of three possibilities here: I'm stark wrong about 4/4 being one of the most important meters in Western music, or the article assumes I know enough about music to calculate 4/4 out of one of the examples listed (despite explicitly stating the upper number much be such and such), or someone who knows the subject should probably put that in there. 24.24.81.53 ( talk) 07:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello JK! The above says; "Metre is that which concerneth the proportions of the foot in measure (that is, musical mensuration results from the short and long of the poetic foot - Red). Musical metre consists of (thesis and arsis), that is, in the raising and lowering of syllabic quantity." The last few words I do not quite get - "so as to correct and produce them"? This is late, Italianate Latin, sorry. Redheylin ( talk) 04:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Please see [here| http://www.enotes.com/music-encyclopedia/polymeter] the view that regularly alternating rhythms are "changing" metres, not polymetres. I am therefore removing the bit about Bernstein's Courante. Redheylin ( talk) 18:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph below has also been excised since it creates unrefd distinctions which cannot therefore be used in the article's structure
Redheylin ( talk) 00:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
It looks to me like Meter (hymn) doesn't contain anything which would more easily fit in this article. Therefore, I am proposing that they be merged. John Carter ( talk) 20:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
I also agree that Meter (hymn) and Meter (music) should *not* be merged. In music it refers much more to the rhythm and beat of a piece, while in hymnody it references the poetic setting of the hymn text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.147.110.212 ( talk) 04:25, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Even though the word is the same its meaning in the two contexts is quite different. Merging the two articles would probably complicate things and possibly confuse the reader. I'm removing the merger template since it looks like the template has been up for the a while and most of the people who left comments agree that it should not be merged.-- dbolton ( talk) 02:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The referencing on this article seems to have been done in a traditional literature format: "(Scholes 1977)" as opposed to the standard Wikipedia format (see Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners). To me this interupts the reader's flow and makes the article less accessible (I also note discussions above - under the heading "4/4" - regarding the perceived inaccessiblity of the article). I propose reformatting the references as per the Wikipedia guidelines.-- Perry Comb-over ( talk) 22:37, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I have just reverted edits made by User:Redheylin, an editor whose integrity I respect, on two grounds. First, and most important, the changes were from American norms (-ize endings) to one British norm (-ise endings), on grounds of "British spelling priority" for this article. The article's very title and lead sentence, however, both give the American variant of the subject: "meter", instead of the British "metre". About two years ago (see further up on this discussion page) this matter was discussed, with no consensus having been reached. When the article was created, the spelling indeed was "metre", and this title was subsequently altered to the American variant. Shall we now re-open discussion of whether this ought to be reverted to the original (UK) spelling?
Second, it is incorrect to claim that -ise endings for words such as "colonise", "centralise", and "theorise" are the UK standard, though practice has been drifting in that direction for more than half a century now. Conservative British usage (as represented by the Oxford University Press and The Times) prefers the -ize form in the great majority of cases, while allowing that -ise is a variant for many such words ("analyse" is the major exception, on the etymological principle that it entered English via French, and not directly from the original Greek); the more up-to-date Guardian style guide, on the contrary, accepts only the -ise form, except in words like "prize" and "size", where it is not a question of a suffix, in any case.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 23:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I think you have, indeed, missed something. I did not mention the issue of "practice" vs. "practise" in UK vs. US usage, which is wholly outside of this discussion. (In fact, there is only a single occurrence in the entire article of either word and, since it is a noun in the phrase "common practice period", there is no question of UK vs. American usage. My statement, "practice has been drifting in that direction …", might have been differently rendered as "UK usage has been drifting in that direction …".) The spelling changes Redheylin made were from "organization" to "organisation" and "organizing" to "organising", claiming "brit engl priority" in the edit summary. I am merely asking whether Redheylin (or anyone else) wishes to re-open the debate over reverting the spelling of the article's title to "Metre (music)". It was changed now quite a long time ago without any reason being given, subsequently debated but not resolved, and I took Redheylin's claim of "brit engl priority" to be a subtle way of suggesting that this title ought to be reverted. Perhaps I am reading too much into it.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 22:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
24.16.215.169 ( talk) 03:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
In what way are the inline citations in this article "not properly formatted"?— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 00:15, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
I just read over the arguments for merging the compound meter article into this one. However, I believe that the subject can be expanded upon (especially regarding the recent addition of citation needed warnings). This article is lengthy as it is and it's inappropriate to lengthen the compound meter part more than it is already. So with that, I say we should reinstate Compound meter (music) and shorten the actual length of the blurb in this article. -- Devin.chaloux ( talk) 05:35, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
I have initiated a formal RM action to move Musical scale to Scale (music). Contributions and comments would be very welcome; decisions of this kind could affect the choice of title for many music theory articles.
Noetica Tea? 00:12, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Is it the cymbals or the drum the denotes the time in "Simple triple drum pattern: divides each of three beats into two"? Is there a single(same) note example? 117.207.238.60 ( talk) 17:19, 18 September 2014 (UTC)class=c
The opening sentence contains at least four problems.
"Hypermeter is large-scale meter (as opposed to surface-level meter) created by hypermeasures which consist of hyperbeats ( Stein 2005, 329 )."
I'll add a reference to the brief discussion of Berstein's America—it comes from London (1995).
I'm compromised here. I believe the field is a bit confused about the subject, which therefore needs cautious treatment in a WP article (somewhat distanced from and inclusive of the various mind-sets). In the future, an offspring article on hypermetre will be needed—although it might be good to let the subject develop over the next year or two. :-) Tony (talk) 03:27, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
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An IP just had a little spree of changing "measure" to "bar" which I reverted according to various principles including my personal perception that it was a bit rude. However, I do note that alongside "measure" we do also say "metre". Is this article actually in a specific dialect? Canadian??? (Apologies if this was much-discussed six years ago and I missed the memo.) Best wishes to all DBaK ( talk) 09:18, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
In
Hypermetre, in the "Hard Day's Night" example, shouldn't the word hard be 2
4 since it is a half note?
Squandermania (
talk) 16:06, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
"Hypermetre is large-scale metre (as opposed to surface-level metre) created by hypermeasures, which consist of hyperbeats (Stein 2005, 329). "Hypermeter is meter, with all its inherent characteristics, at the level where bars act as beats" (Neal 2000, 115). For example, the four-bar hyperbar is the prototypical structure for country music, in and against which country songs work (Neal 2000, 115). In some styles, two- and four-bar hypermetres are common."
Neal gets a good going over as a ref. But why?
Neal, Jocelyn (2000). "Songwriter's Signature, Artist's Imprint: The Metric Structure of a Country Song". In Wolfe, Charles K.; Akenson, James E. Country Music Annual 2000. Lexington, KY: University Press of Kentucky. ISBN 0-8131-0989-2.
It's very narrowly scoped. London 2004/2012, Temperley, and many others are more balanced. Rothstein isn't even mentioned in the whole article. Tony (talk) 06:06, 22 October 2018 (UTC)