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"They didn't criticize my performances, they didn't criticize the team's performances, they just criticized my Turkish ancestry and respect for my upbringing. This crosses a personal line that should never be crossed, as newspapers try to turn the nation of Germany against me."
"Does my Turkish heritage make me a more worthy target?
"Whilst I grew up in Germany, my family background has its roots firmly based in Turkey. I have two hearts, one German and one Turkish."
UEFA Europa League top assist provider:2009-10
UEFA Champions League top assist provider:2010–11
La liga top assist provider:2010-11,2011-12,2012-13
Psrpen00 ( talk) 13:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi @ Instantwatym:. I can accept that you take issue with specific citations but these outright removals of the tattoo controversy are not okay. If you perform one web search for "mesut özil graue wölfe tattoo" you'll find that this was covered by all kinds of very reliable media. I have restored the section with more reliable sourcing. We now have four citations: from Tagesspiegel, ZDF, Deutschlandfunk and Tagesschau. Kind regards, Robby.is.on ( talk) 16:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
The only argument presented is a claim by a left wing MP (with a political agenda of his own) that Ozil is allegedly a member based on the resemblance of a tattoo.That is not true. Only the Berliner Zeitung article, which we no longer use, referred to Hakan Tas. Please have a look at the four citations we have now. Robby.is.on ( talk) 18:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
Based on my opinion (and it is just an opinion), these articles barely have anything of merit.You're entitled to your opinion. But I don't think it's reasonable to discount all of German media because of
xenophobia and racism this player has been subjected to in Germany. Robby.is.on ( talk) 10:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
three crescent moons (which are actually not present on the Grey Wolves symbol)They are, however, part of the MHP's logo and the MHP is affiliated with the Grey Wolves.
This is why I questioned the quality of the sources and their bias/agenda. If the information is to be included than saying that a tattoo IS a symbol of the Grey Wolves is not appropriate.The sources I used are of very high quality. (If you're doubtful about that, feel free to ask for them to be checked at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard.) And our job as editors is to reflect the reporting of reliable sources. If the reliable sources which reported on the tattoos indeed got things wrong in this instance as you claim, that's a problem we have to live with. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. Robby.is.on ( talk) 23:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
all of them falsely claimed that the 3 crescent exists in an official logo of the Grey Wolves despite not being so.None of them did, actually. They claim that the three crescents and the howling wolf are symbols for the Grey Wolves. And as the Grey Wolves and the MHP belong together, that claim is plausible.
it should be a fairly easy to classify them as unreliable.Nope. They don't suddenly become unreliable because one editor on Wikipedia makes that claim. Robby.is.on ( talk) 17:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Violation of WP:NOR. Not up to Wikipedia editors to fill in gaps and make original arguments about plausability.Most of your arguments in this discussion are original research. 🤷
If someone (me or anyone else) wants to make a case about them being unreliable, they are welcome to do so for other editors to discuss.I already pointed to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard above. Let me know when you start a discussion about the sources there. Robby.is.on ( talk) 20:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
niche opinions from unreliable sourceshas no basis in reality. The sources are generally reliable and anything but "niche". Again, if you think the sources are unsuitable, take it to the reliable source noticeboard. Robby.is.on ( talk) 09:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Three crescents are NOT symbols of the Grey Wolves. It is FALSE. Any source that publishes false claims can be assumed unreliable and it is undue weight.Your personal opinion does not trump half a dozen reliable sources. If you continue to remove reliably sourced content from the page, I will request admin intervention. Robby.is.on ( talk) 19:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
The language/text you are insiting on including in this article explicity states that the 3 crescents are symbols of the Grey Wolves which is false.You have yet to provide any kind of source supporting that claim. With many German newspapers reporting on this, you'd think someone would have publicly called out the error if the German newspapers had got it completely wrong? By the way, Grey Wolves (organization) has "In 2022, Grey Wolves vandalized an Armenian genocide memorial in Brussels with three crescents, similar to the MHP logo." With the Grey Wolves being the MHP's paramilitary young wing, calling the three crescents a symbol for the Grey Wolves could been seen, if anything, as slightly imprecise, but certainly not outright false as you persistently claim. Robby.is.on ( talk) 20:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mesut Özil article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 100 days
![]() |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 2 times. The weeks in which this happened: |
"They didn't criticize my performances, they didn't criticize the team's performances, they just criticized my Turkish ancestry and respect for my upbringing. This crosses a personal line that should never be crossed, as newspapers try to turn the nation of Germany against me."
"Does my Turkish heritage make me a more worthy target?
"Whilst I grew up in Germany, my family background has its roots firmly based in Turkey. I have two hearts, one German and one Turkish."
UEFA Europa League top assist provider:2009-10
UEFA Champions League top assist provider:2010–11
La liga top assist provider:2010-11,2011-12,2012-13
Psrpen00 ( talk) 13:19, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Hi @ Instantwatym:. I can accept that you take issue with specific citations but these outright removals of the tattoo controversy are not okay. If you perform one web search for "mesut özil graue wölfe tattoo" you'll find that this was covered by all kinds of very reliable media. I have restored the section with more reliable sourcing. We now have four citations: from Tagesspiegel, ZDF, Deutschlandfunk and Tagesschau. Kind regards, Robby.is.on ( talk) 16:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
The only argument presented is a claim by a left wing MP (with a political agenda of his own) that Ozil is allegedly a member based on the resemblance of a tattoo.That is not true. Only the Berliner Zeitung article, which we no longer use, referred to Hakan Tas. Please have a look at the four citations we have now. Robby.is.on ( talk) 18:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
Based on my opinion (and it is just an opinion), these articles barely have anything of merit.You're entitled to your opinion. But I don't think it's reasonable to discount all of German media because of
xenophobia and racism this player has been subjected to in Germany. Robby.is.on ( talk) 10:20, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
three crescent moons (which are actually not present on the Grey Wolves symbol)They are, however, part of the MHP's logo and the MHP is affiliated with the Grey Wolves.
This is why I questioned the quality of the sources and their bias/agenda. If the information is to be included than saying that a tattoo IS a symbol of the Grey Wolves is not appropriate.The sources I used are of very high quality. (If you're doubtful about that, feel free to ask for them to be checked at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard.) And our job as editors is to reflect the reporting of reliable sources. If the reliable sources which reported on the tattoos indeed got things wrong in this instance as you claim, that's a problem we have to live with. See Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. Robby.is.on ( talk) 23:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
all of them falsely claimed that the 3 crescent exists in an official logo of the Grey Wolves despite not being so.None of them did, actually. They claim that the three crescents and the howling wolf are symbols for the Grey Wolves. And as the Grey Wolves and the MHP belong together, that claim is plausible.
it should be a fairly easy to classify them as unreliable.Nope. They don't suddenly become unreliable because one editor on Wikipedia makes that claim. Robby.is.on ( talk) 17:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Violation of WP:NOR. Not up to Wikipedia editors to fill in gaps and make original arguments about plausability.Most of your arguments in this discussion are original research. 🤷
If someone (me or anyone else) wants to make a case about them being unreliable, they are welcome to do so for other editors to discuss.I already pointed to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard above. Let me know when you start a discussion about the sources there. Robby.is.on ( talk) 20:23, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
niche opinions from unreliable sourceshas no basis in reality. The sources are generally reliable and anything but "niche". Again, if you think the sources are unsuitable, take it to the reliable source noticeboard. Robby.is.on ( talk) 09:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
Three crescents are NOT symbols of the Grey Wolves. It is FALSE. Any source that publishes false claims can be assumed unreliable and it is undue weight.Your personal opinion does not trump half a dozen reliable sources. If you continue to remove reliably sourced content from the page, I will request admin intervention. Robby.is.on ( talk) 19:04, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
The language/text you are insiting on including in this article explicity states that the 3 crescents are symbols of the Grey Wolves which is false.You have yet to provide any kind of source supporting that claim. With many German newspapers reporting on this, you'd think someone would have publicly called out the error if the German newspapers had got it completely wrong? By the way, Grey Wolves (organization) has "In 2022, Grey Wolves vandalized an Armenian genocide memorial in Brussels with three crescents, similar to the MHP logo." With the Grey Wolves being the MHP's paramilitary young wing, calling the three crescents a symbol for the Grey Wolves could been seen, if anything, as slightly imprecise, but certainly not outright false as you persistently claim. Robby.is.on ( talk) 20:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)