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This is not true that Holy Blood, Holy Grail invented the idea that Jesus sired a child who was, or was an ancestor of, Merowig. It merely exposed it to a larger audience. For that reason, I deleted the bit about it being a concoction of the authors, which was written in biased manner, anyway. confirmation that the idea wasn't original to HB,HG is on that page, as it refers to earlier sources with the same thesis.
I agree with whoever you are, entirely. Someone should go and read (or re-read, again) the book. However, your change has been erased and the original text reinserted. This wholly reflects on the bias of the one who wrote the article in the first place. Maybe they found it too academically disconcerting for their liking. It doesn't reflect mainstream thought, therefore cannot be correct in its' assumptions. "No evidence" etc, etc, etc. Just because it isn't "mainstream" doesn't mean it never happened, or existed, or isn't actually the fact/truth of the matter. History, and its' recording thereof, is an extremely subjective exercise of an subjective matter.
The only sure way of finding out what really happened or is fact, is to invent a time machine and go back to take a look. We'll be waiting some time (no pun intended) for that to happen. Ozmeister66 ( talk) 04:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I object to Way77's insertion that "According to all the existing historical data, Merowig never lived.". Clovis must have had a (paternal) grandfather, and it is very unlikely that he didn't know what his name was; whether it was Merowig or whatever we cannot know. Also since both Clodio (his supposed predecessor) and Childeric (his supposed successor) assumed royal status, this man is likely to have been king and has gotten a place in later genealogies and traditions. The fact that there are no contemporary records means nothing: absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. Otherwise Jesus never existed either. Tom Peters 13:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyone? Could anyone explain why we use a German name? For Merowig is just a modern German name. As far as I know it has no origin in primary sources. The guy we are talking about is a Salian Frank. This means his ancestors came originally from the Netherlands. His native language Low Franconian is presented as "proto-Dutch" by modern scholars as Robinson from Stanford University. In his own language he is called Merovech. There are Latin alternatives, maybe even English alternatives, but why oh why do we use a German name on a Dutch guy? Does Wikipedia favores Germans above the Dutch? johanthon 14:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
It looks like there was some attempt to merge the articles Merowig and Merovech, with the result that some information was lost, and the edit histories of the two pages are pretty tangled. If anyone is digging into the history here, please be sure to check the histories of both names. It looks like some sourced information was also removed. I'll attempt to untangle, and if anyone else sees lost information, please feel free to add it back in. -- El on ka 16:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Did the "vech" part of his name stem from "wig" (cf archaic Dutch wijg "battle") or from "vech" (cf Dutch vecht, English fight)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morgengave ( talk • contribs) 22:05, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Why not mention the one speculation from Holy blood, holy grail that is actually significant about the Merovingians, which they base upon seemingly Hebrew etymology of a number of Merovingian names and holds that they were really diaspora Jews who somehow managed to gain chiefdom over the Franks and led them to conquer half of Western Europe? According to Lincoln and Leigh, the Merovingians didn't "marry" into the bloodline of Christ, they really were the royal family from the house of David, and their legendary maritime origin would refer to how the Merovingians, coming from the Middle East, originally reached Gaul by ship. According to the authors, it also explains their ominious origins clouded in legend as they were trying to hide their Jewish descent from the Franks.
Which all plays into how Lincoln and Leigh also hold the Merovingians to be identical to King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, by pointing to facts that are also mentioned by many legitimate Arthurian scholars they cite: Many places in Arthurian legend are actually in Gaul without Arthur and his Knights crossing the channel, and many of Arthur's knights have names that are obviously not of Celtic nor Latin origin. Most Arthurian scholars just say they don't know what etymology the names might derive from, while Lincoln and Leigh present Hebrew etymologies for their names.
So you see, there's a lot more to Lincoln and Leigh's hypothesis than just saying that the Merovingians somehow "married into the bloodline of Jesus". -- 79.242.222.168 ( talk) 00:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Does this contemporary reference of Priscus confirm that Merovech was Chlodio's son?
Ennio Fabbro ( talk) 14:53, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Its just a LEGEND, look the word up and read the definition — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.135.79.127 ( talk) 03:17, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
The claims that Merovech is "semi-legendary" seem to refer mostly to all the stories and legends surrounding him and the founding of the eponymous dynasty, not to his existence as a real person. There are descriptions of him, his life and his rule (including his participation in the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains and the civil war to secure the Frankish throne. He was an ancestor to the later Frankish Kings and to nearly all of the European royal and high-noble houses, who have highly researched genealogies, tracing back thousands of years not just to Merovech himself, but also to Merovech's ancestors up to 200 years before he lived.
If Merovech isn't real from whom do all these people descend from? Why would these long genealogies have a faulty link precisely on the person of Merovech himself? He is subject to several legends and myths, augmented by his royal descendants, but to question his existence as a real person is nearly ridiculous. User:CaptainKaptain 01:27, 06 March 2021 (UTC)
Frankish Human on this article and
Childeric I you have removed the French versions of their name with the remark that Merovech and Childeric were Frankish, not French. I am not really sure what difference you are insisting upon in this particular period of history. They are widely seen as relevant to the origins of France, which of course was, in its earliest phases, Frankish. Presumably your edits have something to do the idea that you believe they spoke a Germanic dialect as their first language instead of a Romance one. This may be true (we have very little information) but they were living in a multilingual environment and they are important to the histories of several countries, especially France. Your edit summary on both articles also makes no sense to me: This isnt a reason to give him a french translation, with your logic, a Mongol of the Mongol empire who was born somewhere else than modern mongolia would need that modern day regions translation now, your reasoning doesnt fruit
Actually, yes, for a Mongol who lived in Persia and was important in Persian history, we would probably give the Persian version of their name. It fruits. On the other hand the comparison is very imperfect. There were native Franks living in their homeland where Germanic and Romance languages were being spoken (and still are). They were not alien conquerors who had come from a far away country where a completely foreign language was spoken.
Andrew Lancaster (
talk) 22:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is not true that Holy Blood, Holy Grail invented the idea that Jesus sired a child who was, or was an ancestor of, Merowig. It merely exposed it to a larger audience. For that reason, I deleted the bit about it being a concoction of the authors, which was written in biased manner, anyway. confirmation that the idea wasn't original to HB,HG is on that page, as it refers to earlier sources with the same thesis.
I agree with whoever you are, entirely. Someone should go and read (or re-read, again) the book. However, your change has been erased and the original text reinserted. This wholly reflects on the bias of the one who wrote the article in the first place. Maybe they found it too academically disconcerting for their liking. It doesn't reflect mainstream thought, therefore cannot be correct in its' assumptions. "No evidence" etc, etc, etc. Just because it isn't "mainstream" doesn't mean it never happened, or existed, or isn't actually the fact/truth of the matter. History, and its' recording thereof, is an extremely subjective exercise of an subjective matter.
The only sure way of finding out what really happened or is fact, is to invent a time machine and go back to take a look. We'll be waiting some time (no pun intended) for that to happen. Ozmeister66 ( talk) 04:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I object to Way77's insertion that "According to all the existing historical data, Merowig never lived.". Clovis must have had a (paternal) grandfather, and it is very unlikely that he didn't know what his name was; whether it was Merowig or whatever we cannot know. Also since both Clodio (his supposed predecessor) and Childeric (his supposed successor) assumed royal status, this man is likely to have been king and has gotten a place in later genealogies and traditions. The fact that there are no contemporary records means nothing: absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. Otherwise Jesus never existed either. Tom Peters 13:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyone? Could anyone explain why we use a German name? For Merowig is just a modern German name. As far as I know it has no origin in primary sources. The guy we are talking about is a Salian Frank. This means his ancestors came originally from the Netherlands. His native language Low Franconian is presented as "proto-Dutch" by modern scholars as Robinson from Stanford University. In his own language he is called Merovech. There are Latin alternatives, maybe even English alternatives, but why oh why do we use a German name on a Dutch guy? Does Wikipedia favores Germans above the Dutch? johanthon 14:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
It looks like there was some attempt to merge the articles Merowig and Merovech, with the result that some information was lost, and the edit histories of the two pages are pretty tangled. If anyone is digging into the history here, please be sure to check the histories of both names. It looks like some sourced information was also removed. I'll attempt to untangle, and if anyone else sees lost information, please feel free to add it back in. -- El on ka 16:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Did the "vech" part of his name stem from "wig" (cf archaic Dutch wijg "battle") or from "vech" (cf Dutch vecht, English fight)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morgengave ( talk • contribs) 22:05, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Why not mention the one speculation from Holy blood, holy grail that is actually significant about the Merovingians, which they base upon seemingly Hebrew etymology of a number of Merovingian names and holds that they were really diaspora Jews who somehow managed to gain chiefdom over the Franks and led them to conquer half of Western Europe? According to Lincoln and Leigh, the Merovingians didn't "marry" into the bloodline of Christ, they really were the royal family from the house of David, and their legendary maritime origin would refer to how the Merovingians, coming from the Middle East, originally reached Gaul by ship. According to the authors, it also explains their ominious origins clouded in legend as they were trying to hide their Jewish descent from the Franks.
Which all plays into how Lincoln and Leigh also hold the Merovingians to be identical to King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, by pointing to facts that are also mentioned by many legitimate Arthurian scholars they cite: Many places in Arthurian legend are actually in Gaul without Arthur and his Knights crossing the channel, and many of Arthur's knights have names that are obviously not of Celtic nor Latin origin. Most Arthurian scholars just say they don't know what etymology the names might derive from, while Lincoln and Leigh present Hebrew etymologies for their names.
So you see, there's a lot more to Lincoln and Leigh's hypothesis than just saying that the Merovingians somehow "married into the bloodline of Jesus". -- 79.242.222.168 ( talk) 00:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Does this contemporary reference of Priscus confirm that Merovech was Chlodio's son?
Ennio Fabbro ( talk) 14:53, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
Its just a LEGEND, look the word up and read the definition — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.135.79.127 ( talk) 03:17, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
The claims that Merovech is "semi-legendary" seem to refer mostly to all the stories and legends surrounding him and the founding of the eponymous dynasty, not to his existence as a real person. There are descriptions of him, his life and his rule (including his participation in the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains and the civil war to secure the Frankish throne. He was an ancestor to the later Frankish Kings and to nearly all of the European royal and high-noble houses, who have highly researched genealogies, tracing back thousands of years not just to Merovech himself, but also to Merovech's ancestors up to 200 years before he lived.
If Merovech isn't real from whom do all these people descend from? Why would these long genealogies have a faulty link precisely on the person of Merovech himself? He is subject to several legends and myths, augmented by his royal descendants, but to question his existence as a real person is nearly ridiculous. User:CaptainKaptain 01:27, 06 March 2021 (UTC)
Frankish Human on this article and
Childeric I you have removed the French versions of their name with the remark that Merovech and Childeric were Frankish, not French. I am not really sure what difference you are insisting upon in this particular period of history. They are widely seen as relevant to the origins of France, which of course was, in its earliest phases, Frankish. Presumably your edits have something to do the idea that you believe they spoke a Germanic dialect as their first language instead of a Romance one. This may be true (we have very little information) but they were living in a multilingual environment and they are important to the histories of several countries, especially France. Your edit summary on both articles also makes no sense to me: This isnt a reason to give him a french translation, with your logic, a Mongol of the Mongol empire who was born somewhere else than modern mongolia would need that modern day regions translation now, your reasoning doesnt fruit
Actually, yes, for a Mongol who lived in Persia and was important in Persian history, we would probably give the Persian version of their name. It fruits. On the other hand the comparison is very imperfect. There were native Franks living in their homeland where Germanic and Romance languages were being spoken (and still are). They were not alien conquerors who had come from a far away country where a completely foreign language was spoken.
Andrew Lancaster (
talk) 22:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)