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This article mentions "In current times have become popular in Japan as "night flowers". There is no citation for this, and I can't find a single Japanese source backing it up. Most of the English sources seem to cite information that I wouldn't call "current", one such site claiming that they sell more during bridal months, when the average age of first marriage in Japan is 27 for women. Another source claims Komachi Hair Company makes them, but their Japanese site has no mention of them at all. Shouldn't this be either backed up or removed? Or at least re-phrased to not say "popular" which is misleading at best? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.182.170.180 ( talk) 18:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
There was recently a reference to "merkin" on ESPN College Football Gameday (9/16/06) from the USC campus. A sign in the crowd referenced "finding Corby's merkin". Is this a reference to Lee Corso?
I have added the reference to the relevant Wikipedia article. However, I don't assume that this is the same term. Most of the occasions I hear it, it involves a parody of the American (cowboy?) accent. It is often pronounced more like murrk'n, and that is quite different from how merkin would be pronounced locally. In the same way that President Bush accent is parodied as if he is demanding a 'War on tourism'. It is merely an exaggeration of how the American accent deals with vowels, particularly dropping those that follow the letter 'r'. There are, of course, some people that do connect it with the word for pubic wig. But I would not assume that all do.
Bobblewik
(talk) 15:47, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Using Google, I've found a few references to "Merkin" as a slang term for an American:
"Then "merkin" was coined afresh to mean "an American", because it
sounds a bit like the half-swallowed pronunciation of "American" by some Americans, particularly President Lyndon Johnson; and the fact that it had a "naughty" meaning didn't hurt. Punning use of the
word dates back to at least the early 1960s." [1]
References in popular culture include the name of the American President in Dr. Strangelove.
Some more links:
The term seems to have experienced the most popularity on Usenet, which would explain why some modern Internet users have never heard of it. Can I put it back in the article now? - Aranel ("Sarah") 22:01, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
The OED entry on "Merkin" states that it is U.S. Slang for an American or American English. As etymology, it gives "alteration of American, (prob. after U.S. pronunciation), perh. punningly after MERKIN n.". It then lists several uses of the word from 1990 to 1999, including usenet articles and a number of U.S. newspaper articles. I can send the whole article to anyone who provides me with their email address. AxelBoldt 19:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
In Europe, "Merkin" has also been used as a colloquial term for an American since the 1960s. The OED reports that the term has become common internet slang for Americans or American English.
Does not jibe with the cites. Please rewrite it before putting it back in. ---- evrik ( talk) 14:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I came upon this article via the reliable sources noticeboard. I can confirm that the Oxford English Dictionary has an entry on Merkin as a reference to Americans, with the earliest recorded use in 1926. However, as it was stated there, and also at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trivia sections, there should not be trivia sections in articles. The entries in the section in the article are not in the scope of the article. If the subjects discussed have articles of their own, then they should be listed on the disambiguation page, not here. Because of this, I have removed the section, the contents of which are replicated below:
- The popular saltwater fly fishing lure, used primarily in targeting bonefish and permit, Del Brown's Merkin, [2] is also named after the artificial hairpiece. The Merkin fly pattern represents a crab, referencing the merkin's historical use for pubic lice (also colloquially known as crabs). Further, Del's Merkin is tied with a disc of fuzzy yarn, imitating the crab's shell, but also reminiscent of the fly's namesake. [3]
- In Stanley Kubrick's 1964 anti-war black comedy Dr. Strangelove, the President of the United States, played by Peter Sellers, is named Merkin Muffley. [4]
-- Joshua Issac ( talk) 17:28, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Richard-of-Earth ( talk) 18:02, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
References
I've never seen one. Can anyone supply a photo? 202.142.214.49 20:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
How do they fasten merkins? Do they use some kind of glue that is kind to the skin or what?
2015-01-04 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
I've removed this line "others have claimed that merkins were worn for nude stage appearances." If someone wants to readd this, please cite it. -- mako ( talk• contribs) 16:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
"Claimed"? It's still practiced to this day. Just saw the Le Femme show at the MGM Grand in Vegas tonight and all of the dancers were wearing merkins. Very strange considering some of the costumes didn't cover the merkins. Sort of odd in an era of extreme waxing.
Two quotes from the article:
"The first use of the word by an established author was in Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita (1955)." "In William Shakespeare's A Winter's Tale, Merkins are often mentioned."
I'm reasonably sure that Shakespeare pre-deates the 1950's. Can anyone confirm the Winters Tale reference, and then modify as appropriate?
Perhaps this would more appropriately be British (at least stereotypically) understatement, to exclude, say, the Italians, who are not noted for such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crab ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 20 February 2007
A vertical aerodynamic fin called the Merkin first saw its use in Formula One on the Williams FW22A (2000) (as named by Chief Aerodynamicist Geoff Willis), although this name was changed to the more common name of " Forward Guide Vane" after higher authorities found out its true meaning.
{2007-03-18 Automated pywikipediabot message }
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 17:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure Rock Hudson's not a woman. 64.222.172.241 ( talk) 01:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
A lesbian's version of a Beard (companion). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.123.84.116 ( talk) 19:27, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
k, thanx, looks like chemo types use merkins. Like I've heard said, a 60 year old doesn't look good bald down there. Ask D.N.A.- Peter Napkin ( talk) 01:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
NPR Interview -- Datapharmer ( talk) 20:48, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
When editing the popular culture section, someone entered (paraphrased here) that "Wikipedia does not need an exhaustive list of every mention of the merkin in popular culture!" I find this to be a contradiction, as many many articles have just such lists - for things that are far more commonly mentioned on television and in books than something as obscure as the merkin. Do others agree with this assessment, and that it is in fact okay for such a list of mentions in popular culture to be compiled? Or do others agree that such a list does not fit with the guidelines of wikipedia? Thanks. Spiral5800 ( talk) 23:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
This is a difficult clothing item to imagine without actually seeing an image. And the design of a saltwater fishing fly which resembles it would appear to be entirely impossible without a photograph. So I'm tagging the talk page as needing images. Trilobitealive ( talk) 02:14, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Should also mention McCabe's wearing of a merkin in this movie, since her contract forbade any "nude" scenes. (She played a naked woman being frozen to death, as one reviewer put it, "the most thankless role in any horror film", a "brave actress".) 69.120.202.82 ( talk) 08:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)captcrisis
What is the problem with the definition a wig for the pudendum? This is the definition in every dictionary I have ever used. I even use this word as a test of a good dictionary. Good dictionaries always have merkin and pudendum. 69.250.5.178 ( talk) 05:50, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
At least now we're talking. Edit warring is not allowed. While BRD is not binding, it is widely accepted by the community and is the only way to determine who has started an edit war. Admins routinely use it to determine whether to block and who to block. I used a 3RR warning tag to provide the warning, thus letting the IP know they were approaching the bright line (although one can be blocked for less than three reverts), and how to move forward, which is to follow BRD. Regardless of one's opinion about BRD, edit warring is still a blockable offense, especially when warned in the edit summary and user talk page.
If it didn't primarily refer to the female vulva (as your dictionary indicates) and entrance to the female sexual organs themselves, I would have no problem with the word
pudendum (which correctly redirects to the female
vulva because males don't have a vulva
). Pubic and pudenda are not exact synonyms.
Pubic wig is gender neutral and applies to both men and women, and they are used by both male and female actors, and pudendum would not work for a male. In English pubic wig, which is far more widely used (including Kate Winslet's quote), just sounds better to me. A merkin essentially substitutes for " pubic hair" (2,440,000 results), not " pudendal hair" (1,300 results), an expression one rarely hears. In fact, pubic hair surrounds the pudenda. The frequency of common usage is so overwhelming that pubic hair wins hands down, and sometimes we do use Google search results to make such decisions.
Another more banal reason why this attempt was initially rejected is that it violates WP:LEAD. The lead should not contain any information not already contained in the body of the article, and it should summarize the article, which exclusively uses the words pubic wig.
Maybe those are reasons why the article only uses that term "pubic wig". If you still don't agree, then follow our dispute resolution process, usually starting with a request for comment. -- Brangifer ( talk) 16:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
What you say ("Websters DOES say is is not exclusive to females,") is not correct. It says "especially the external genitals of a woman." There is a fundamental difference between "not exclusive" (your words, not any dictionary) and "especially". You might think that's a technical difference, and it is in a very strict sense, but the meaning is totally different. We should stick to the meaning. (On that technical basis I'll revise my wording above.)
Here are a few dictionary defs:
Strictly speaking, it can apply to both sexes, but not normally. It would be a relatively rare occurrence to find an example applied to a male, compared to applied to a woman. We should use the typical definition.
Definitions usually note that it applies "especially to females" and to the vulva, not the larger pubic area, which is what a pubic wig covers. -- Brangifer ( talk) 21:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Non-Admin Closure: Clear consensus is for keeping the current wording of pubic wig. -- ТимофейЛее Суда. 02:27, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Should the wording be changed from "pubic wig" to "a wig for the pudendum"?
I obviously, as evidenced in the thread above, favor keeping the long-standing wording of "pubic wig" as the main description for the following reasons: that's what our sources say, it is the most common term, and the problematic fact that dictionaries define pudendum as applying "especially to females." Because merkins are used by both men and women, and the word pudendum is almost never applied to males, we should choose to keep the gender neutral expression "pubic wig".
I am not averse to adding mention that the wording "a wig for the pudendum" exists, pending finding RS to that effect, but, for the reasons expressed above (also in the previous thread), believe "pubic wig" should be the more commonly used term in this article. -- Brangifer ( talk) 08:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Keep threaded discussions here, not above. -- Brangifer ( talk) 08:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
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The article should explain that they're glued on. Poveglia ( talk) 09:42, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Merkin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This page has been
transwikied to
Wiktionary. The article has content that is useful at Wiktionary. Therefore the article can be found at either here or here ( logs 1 logs 2.) Note: This means that the article has been copied to the Wiktionary Transwiki namespace for evaluation and formatting. It does not mean that the article is in the Wiktionary main namespace, or that it has been removed from Wikipedia's. Furthermore, the Wiktionarians might delete the article from Wiktionary if they do not find it to be appropriate for the Wiktionary. Removing this tag will usually trigger CopyToWiktionaryBot to re-transwiki the entry. This article should have been removed from Category:Copy to Wiktionary and should not be re-added there. |
-- CopyToWiktionaryBot 06:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
This article mentions "In current times have become popular in Japan as "night flowers". There is no citation for this, and I can't find a single Japanese source backing it up. Most of the English sources seem to cite information that I wouldn't call "current", one such site claiming that they sell more during bridal months, when the average age of first marriage in Japan is 27 for women. Another source claims Komachi Hair Company makes them, but their Japanese site has no mention of them at all. Shouldn't this be either backed up or removed? Or at least re-phrased to not say "popular" which is misleading at best? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.182.170.180 ( talk) 18:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
There was recently a reference to "merkin" on ESPN College Football Gameday (9/16/06) from the USC campus. A sign in the crowd referenced "finding Corby's merkin". Is this a reference to Lee Corso?
I have added the reference to the relevant Wikipedia article. However, I don't assume that this is the same term. Most of the occasions I hear it, it involves a parody of the American (cowboy?) accent. It is often pronounced more like murrk'n, and that is quite different from how merkin would be pronounced locally. In the same way that President Bush accent is parodied as if he is demanding a 'War on tourism'. It is merely an exaggeration of how the American accent deals with vowels, particularly dropping those that follow the letter 'r'. There are, of course, some people that do connect it with the word for pubic wig. But I would not assume that all do.
Bobblewik
(talk) 15:47, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Using Google, I've found a few references to "Merkin" as a slang term for an American:
"Then "merkin" was coined afresh to mean "an American", because it
sounds a bit like the half-swallowed pronunciation of "American" by some Americans, particularly President Lyndon Johnson; and the fact that it had a "naughty" meaning didn't hurt. Punning use of the
word dates back to at least the early 1960s." [1]
References in popular culture include the name of the American President in Dr. Strangelove.
Some more links:
The term seems to have experienced the most popularity on Usenet, which would explain why some modern Internet users have never heard of it. Can I put it back in the article now? - Aranel ("Sarah") 22:01, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
The OED entry on "Merkin" states that it is U.S. Slang for an American or American English. As etymology, it gives "alteration of American, (prob. after U.S. pronunciation), perh. punningly after MERKIN n.". It then lists several uses of the word from 1990 to 1999, including usenet articles and a number of U.S. newspaper articles. I can send the whole article to anyone who provides me with their email address. AxelBoldt 19:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
In Europe, "Merkin" has also been used as a colloquial term for an American since the 1960s. The OED reports that the term has become common internet slang for Americans or American English.
Does not jibe with the cites. Please rewrite it before putting it back in. ---- evrik ( talk) 14:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I came upon this article via the reliable sources noticeboard. I can confirm that the Oxford English Dictionary has an entry on Merkin as a reference to Americans, with the earliest recorded use in 1926. However, as it was stated there, and also at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trivia sections, there should not be trivia sections in articles. The entries in the section in the article are not in the scope of the article. If the subjects discussed have articles of their own, then they should be listed on the disambiguation page, not here. Because of this, I have removed the section, the contents of which are replicated below:
- The popular saltwater fly fishing lure, used primarily in targeting bonefish and permit, Del Brown's Merkin, [2] is also named after the artificial hairpiece. The Merkin fly pattern represents a crab, referencing the merkin's historical use for pubic lice (also colloquially known as crabs). Further, Del's Merkin is tied with a disc of fuzzy yarn, imitating the crab's shell, but also reminiscent of the fly's namesake. [3]
- In Stanley Kubrick's 1964 anti-war black comedy Dr. Strangelove, the President of the United States, played by Peter Sellers, is named Merkin Muffley. [4]
-- Joshua Issac ( talk) 17:28, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Richard-of-Earth ( talk) 18:02, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
References
I've never seen one. Can anyone supply a photo? 202.142.214.49 20:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
How do they fasten merkins? Do they use some kind of glue that is kind to the skin or what?
2015-01-04 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.
I've removed this line "others have claimed that merkins were worn for nude stage appearances." If someone wants to readd this, please cite it. -- mako ( talk• contribs) 16:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
"Claimed"? It's still practiced to this day. Just saw the Le Femme show at the MGM Grand in Vegas tonight and all of the dancers were wearing merkins. Very strange considering some of the costumes didn't cover the merkins. Sort of odd in an era of extreme waxing.
Two quotes from the article:
"The first use of the word by an established author was in Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita (1955)." "In William Shakespeare's A Winter's Tale, Merkins are often mentioned."
I'm reasonably sure that Shakespeare pre-deates the 1950's. Can anyone confirm the Winters Tale reference, and then modify as appropriate?
Perhaps this would more appropriately be British (at least stereotypically) understatement, to exclude, say, the Italians, who are not noted for such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crab ( talk • contribs) 16:09, 20 February 2007
A vertical aerodynamic fin called the Merkin first saw its use in Formula One on the Williams FW22A (2000) (as named by Chief Aerodynamicist Geoff Willis), although this name was changed to the more common name of " Forward Guide Vane" after higher authorities found out its true meaning.
{2007-03-18 Automated pywikipediabot message }
[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 17:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure Rock Hudson's not a woman. 64.222.172.241 ( talk) 01:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
A lesbian's version of a Beard (companion). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.123.84.116 ( talk) 19:27, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
k, thanx, looks like chemo types use merkins. Like I've heard said, a 60 year old doesn't look good bald down there. Ask D.N.A.- Peter Napkin ( talk) 01:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
NPR Interview -- Datapharmer ( talk) 20:48, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
When editing the popular culture section, someone entered (paraphrased here) that "Wikipedia does not need an exhaustive list of every mention of the merkin in popular culture!" I find this to be a contradiction, as many many articles have just such lists - for things that are far more commonly mentioned on television and in books than something as obscure as the merkin. Do others agree with this assessment, and that it is in fact okay for such a list of mentions in popular culture to be compiled? Or do others agree that such a list does not fit with the guidelines of wikipedia? Thanks. Spiral5800 ( talk) 23:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
This is a difficult clothing item to imagine without actually seeing an image. And the design of a saltwater fishing fly which resembles it would appear to be entirely impossible without a photograph. So I'm tagging the talk page as needing images. Trilobitealive ( talk) 02:14, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Should also mention McCabe's wearing of a merkin in this movie, since her contract forbade any "nude" scenes. (She played a naked woman being frozen to death, as one reviewer put it, "the most thankless role in any horror film", a "brave actress".) 69.120.202.82 ( talk) 08:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)captcrisis
What is the problem with the definition a wig for the pudendum? This is the definition in every dictionary I have ever used. I even use this word as a test of a good dictionary. Good dictionaries always have merkin and pudendum. 69.250.5.178 ( talk) 05:50, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
At least now we're talking. Edit warring is not allowed. While BRD is not binding, it is widely accepted by the community and is the only way to determine who has started an edit war. Admins routinely use it to determine whether to block and who to block. I used a 3RR warning tag to provide the warning, thus letting the IP know they were approaching the bright line (although one can be blocked for less than three reverts), and how to move forward, which is to follow BRD. Regardless of one's opinion about BRD, edit warring is still a blockable offense, especially when warned in the edit summary and user talk page.
If it didn't primarily refer to the female vulva (as your dictionary indicates) and entrance to the female sexual organs themselves, I would have no problem with the word
pudendum (which correctly redirects to the female
vulva because males don't have a vulva
). Pubic and pudenda are not exact synonyms.
Pubic wig is gender neutral and applies to both men and women, and they are used by both male and female actors, and pudendum would not work for a male. In English pubic wig, which is far more widely used (including Kate Winslet's quote), just sounds better to me. A merkin essentially substitutes for " pubic hair" (2,440,000 results), not " pudendal hair" (1,300 results), an expression one rarely hears. In fact, pubic hair surrounds the pudenda. The frequency of common usage is so overwhelming that pubic hair wins hands down, and sometimes we do use Google search results to make such decisions.
Another more banal reason why this attempt was initially rejected is that it violates WP:LEAD. The lead should not contain any information not already contained in the body of the article, and it should summarize the article, which exclusively uses the words pubic wig.
Maybe those are reasons why the article only uses that term "pubic wig". If you still don't agree, then follow our dispute resolution process, usually starting with a request for comment. -- Brangifer ( talk) 16:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
What you say ("Websters DOES say is is not exclusive to females,") is not correct. It says "especially the external genitals of a woman." There is a fundamental difference between "not exclusive" (your words, not any dictionary) and "especially". You might think that's a technical difference, and it is in a very strict sense, but the meaning is totally different. We should stick to the meaning. (On that technical basis I'll revise my wording above.)
Here are a few dictionary defs:
Strictly speaking, it can apply to both sexes, but not normally. It would be a relatively rare occurrence to find an example applied to a male, compared to applied to a woman. We should use the typical definition.
Definitions usually note that it applies "especially to females" and to the vulva, not the larger pubic area, which is what a pubic wig covers. -- Brangifer ( talk) 21:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Non-Admin Closure: Clear consensus is for keeping the current wording of pubic wig. -- ТимофейЛее Суда. 02:27, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Should the wording be changed from "pubic wig" to "a wig for the pudendum"?
I obviously, as evidenced in the thread above, favor keeping the long-standing wording of "pubic wig" as the main description for the following reasons: that's what our sources say, it is the most common term, and the problematic fact that dictionaries define pudendum as applying "especially to females." Because merkins are used by both men and women, and the word pudendum is almost never applied to males, we should choose to keep the gender neutral expression "pubic wig".
I am not averse to adding mention that the wording "a wig for the pudendum" exists, pending finding RS to that effect, but, for the reasons expressed above (also in the previous thread), believe "pubic wig" should be the more commonly used term in this article. -- Brangifer ( talk) 08:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Keep threaded discussions here, not above. -- Brangifer ( talk) 08:16, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Merkin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The article should explain that they're glued on. Poveglia ( talk) 09:42, 12 September 2019 (UTC)