![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The text in the lead para from "Situated in present-day Eritrea..." to "became a Republic appearing on European maps as 'The Republic of Hamasien'" is almost word-for-word from the text at [1], which had been tagged by CorenBot but the tag was removed by the article creator without removing the copyvio text. The final sentence in the lead para is also a direct lift from the same source.-- CharlieDelta ( talk) 22:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from:
Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
@Resourcer1, dont add unrelated polities. Tigray region which was part of the
Ethiopian Empire, did not encompass modern day Eritrea or Medri Bahri as it use to be called. You also removed the source explaining Medri being a vassal state. Please familiar yourself with censorship. The James Bruce citation also makes no mention of Medri being apart of Tigray province. Its not supported by the citation.
Duqsene (
talk)
16:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
There have been edits to this article leading to the POV that Medri Bahri is solely succeeded by a less than 10 year highly contested Occupation of "Medri Bahri" territory. Some edits show that the false logic of "Medri Bahri" = "Bahr Negash", 1. Medri Bahr = Land of the Sea 2. Bahr Negash = King of the Sea, the falsity in this logic is that without a Bahr Negash, then Medri Bahr does not exist. Does a Country cease to exist, a Country being the Population, Culture, Land, and Villages, towns because the King is no longer the king? Users like LeGabrie are using this logic to steer the article to a "Ethiopian-owned" narrative which is highly contested by Eritreans of today and Eritreans of the times of Medri Bahr. The POV tag will stay in place until this article is a neutral state. Currently, LeGabrie's edits have slanted this article to a Ethiopian-Biased Narrative!
Authorityofwiki (
talk)
18:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
![]() |
Background: Edit war between
User:Authorityofwiki and
User:LeGabrie leading to a discussion on
User talk:Uknowofwiki and an
ANI discussion, where it was suggested to ask for a
WP:3O.
First, a remark on conduct: I would've preferred if this discussion took place on this talk page, rather than on edit summaries, user talk pages and noticeboards (this discussion should certainly have not taken place on a noticeboard - you should've come there with an unresolved discussion, not with no discussion at all). I would also have preferred if the WP:3O request [2] had followed the accepted format for such requests - a simple, concise one-liner - as specified on that page. Please take note for future occasions. As for the question of how long did the kingdom last: Among the pages this discussion has spread on I've seen no compelling arguments either way, thus my provisional opinion is as follows: A kingdom, by definition, is a legal entity, not a national entity: It suggests first and foremost a form of government, with few related cultural aspects. Based solely on this semantic fact, one can conclude the kingdom in question did indeed cease to exist the moment it was conquered and the monarch expelled. If the kingdom was re-established after the Ethiopian occupation we could've suggested that it had continued to exist in some transitional form, pending relevant sources on the state of the state throughout the occupation (eg. the state's bureaucracy and legal system), but it didn't, and so there's no reason to claim otherwise. However, it is not up to us to determine such things by semantics alone; rather, we're to rely on more qualified sources to provide that analysis... I would therefore ask for each of you to attach their relevant sources below, so we can see which has the support of subject matter experts. |
1) "Bahre Negashi (Lord of the Sea). Title of the governor of the central Eritrean area from the coast around Massawa and Zula to the Mareb River, being the district often refered to as Mareb Mellash. The title appears first in the late 1440's (...) The last Bahre Negashi was Ras Wolde-Mikael Solomun, who died in exile in Ethiopia." -p. 111-2
2) "In August 1879, Emperor Yohannes appointed Ras Alula military governor of Mareb Mellash, which he ruled for a decade with a garrison of Tigrayan troops. His first act was to appease and then arrest Ras Wolde-Mika'el, after which he consolidated his administrative control over the highlands from his base at Ade Tekle, Hamasien. In 1884, Ras Alula moved his capital to the village of Asmara. (...) In 1889, he took most of his soldiers to fight with Yohannes at Metemma, and the Italians took advantage of his absence to occupy the highlands. -p. 66
Furthermore, here quotes from Belula Tecle-Misghina's "Asmara - an urban history":
3) "One of these (remark: smaller nations) was Medri Bahri (land of the sea) that, following the arrival of the Turks (remark: 1557), was reduced to a much smaller region, situated in the interior and landlocked: Mareb Mellash, beyond the Mareb, the river". -p. 14
4) "The year 1875 marked the beginning of a conflict that ended only in 1879, signalling the end of the region of Medri Bahri. The area of Asmara was thus subjugated to Ethiopia under the rule of Ras Alula (...) The domain of Ras Alula ended in 1889 with the Italian occupation of Asmara." -p. 29
Conclusion: Woldemichael Solomon was the last Bahr Negash of what was left of Medri Bahri. He was immprisoned in 1879, and Ras Alula, a governor of the
Ethiopian Empire, seized control until he had to give up the Eritrean highlands in 1889, which were subsequently annexed by Italy and declared as part of their
Italian Eritrea colony. Thus the lifespan of the Medri Bahri kingdom, i.e. the domain of the Bahr Negash, should be given from the 15th century to 1879. The direct successors of the polity were the
Ottomans, who seized the coastal regions in 1557 and the Ethiopian Empire, that occupied the Eritrean highlands until 1889. Italian Eritrea should be removed from the Infobox as "successor", since its foundation postdates the disempowerment of the last Bahr Negash by 10/11 years.
User:Uknowofwiki must now provide a source that confirms the survival of the Medri Bahri kingdom and the title Bahr Negash beyond the imprisonment of Woldemichael.
LeGabrie (
talk)
17:57, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
QUESTION Why is the premise based on LeGabrie's logic therefore making this exercise preloaded with a question and intent to claim there will be a third opinion? The Third Opinion User Francouis Robere has already agreed with LeGabrie. Because to say with one statement that the Ottomans are successors yet were pushed back by Eritreans(MedriBahrian people) and then give undue Weight to Ras Alula's less than 10 years occupation (which was resisted by the MedriBahrians), however on the flip side completely Disregard the
Italian Eritrea as a successor? The Standards used are Not the Same for the Ottomans, for the Abyssinians(Ras alula), and the
Italian Eritrea. This is completely Biased and Incorrectly presented premise by the TH\hird Opinion. You Third Opinion have already Rigged (Fixed) the Argument by Making the "Standards" in a way to solely agree with LeGabrie's illogical conclusion of: "Ottomans and Abyssinians" as successors yet "Italian Eritrea" as Not, solely one year, if 1557 makes the Ottomans the successors, then Medri Bahri ended in 1557 and using the Bahrnagash as sole identifor of Medri Bahri which ws originally prior to Abyssinian Emperor, was called Maikele Bahre "In Between the Sea and the Land". The Office of the "Bahrnagash" was externally given title yet Ras Woldemichael Defeated the Abyssinian imposed Bahrnagash in war. The inconstitencies and changing the standards and definitions is the problem with Abyssinian-Ethiopian agenda driven Arguments here.
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
05:28, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
[4] Page 429, states "from early 1300s to 1889, the kingdom of Medri Bahri incorporated much of Eritrea", then proceeds to say "From 1889 to 1941 Italian colonial forces occupied Eritrea." Treaty of Wuchale is an official document.
Italian Eritrea is the successor of the Medri Bahri.
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
17:21, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Nor did Ras Alula have complete control of Medri Bahri since apparently there was open rebellion against him. I provided a source and your unwillingness to read the sources does not take away from the two sources I provided.
Italian Eritrea is the official Successor to Medri Bahri. Again what was Ras Alula's "domain" over "Medri Bahri" called? Right, it was still Medri Bahri, the name of the COUNTRY! Show a map that gives a name for Ras Alula's "domain" of "Medri Bahri", was it called "Ras Alula's domain?" Was there an official document that you have as a source? I can attack your sources too, apparently you refuse to read my sources and actually comment, Flip the page to the page after 68 like I stated, 68 and on, you will read about the different rebels against Ras Alula...including
Bahta Hagos in addition to Ras Woldemikael's rebellion against Alula.
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
19:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I've went through the sources, and what they seem to suggest is this: The kingdom of Medri Bahri was at the center of several wars and attempts of conquest, and for much of its history was subject to one of its more powerful neighbours or to Euro/Asian invading powers. After one such conquest it was limited to the geographic region of Mareb Mellash, which was eventually invaded by Ethiopian forces. All of the sources agree that after this invasion the rule of the Bahre Negashi ceased to exist. The governor on behalf of the invading forces, Ras Alula, established a permanent base within the conquered territory; there is nothing to suggest the territory maintained any sort of autonomous rule beyond that of the Ethiopian-installed governor. It seems to have had no "successor" - it simply ceased to exist. However, insofar as we must state who succeeded the administrative responsibilities of the kingdom after its fall, the answer is clear: the governorate headed by Ras Alula, as part of the Ethiopian empire.
Several claims have been raised that I wish to address:
To summarise: The immediate successor of the Kingdom of Medri Bahri was not an Italian, but an Ethiopian governorate; several sources refer to it as the governorate of Mareb Mellash, one of Hamasen (or rather, they refer to Alula as "the governor of..."). I suggest using the first.
Best regards,
François Robere ( talk) 23:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I will be unprotecting the article tomorrow to give time to François Robere to respond if they wish to. I do not expect edit warring to occur after protection is lifted. Uknowofwiki, I'm looking specifically at you. You can pursue further dispute resolution options but do so without edit warring and civilly. More comments like the "kangaroo court" one may convince the community that you are not interested in achieving consensus, but rather only in seeing your preferred version of the article put in place no matter what. -- NeilN talk to me 13:24, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't believe the Ottoman empire should be listed as a successor to Medri Bahri - the supposed succession in this case was an exchange of land and resulting substitution of power at a local level, wherein "succession" suggests a complete replacement by, or evolution of one political entity into another. If the article was about the local government of the area in question then we could list the local Ottoman administration as succeeding the local Medri Bahri one, but as the article is about the kingdom at large I don't think it's applicable. François Robere ( talk) 15:51, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
[7] Pages 140-144, 150, 173, 432 Just searched for "Walda-mikael" = "Woldemichael", I find that the story is more than just he(walda-mikael) was "arrested by Ras alula and thats the end of Medri Bahri". There were many Medri Bahri (MarabMellash)-excuse the spelling there are many variations of its spelling but it basically is referring to "Medri Bahri", Notable individuals and groups fighting to control Medri Bahri. To present in this article as if Ras Alula was the sole power in Medri Bahri is an oversimplification based on a simplified source written by Dan Connell. In fact, the title of Bahrnegash meant nothing at this point in Medri Bahri's history. Read the source provided. Emperor Yohannes appointed Ras Alula as governor but that governorship was contested violently by the Local chieftains(notables) and that Walda-mikael and his family continued their influence in Medri Bahri even during his arrest. Again, equating "Medri Bahri" as strictly a kingdom is incorrect as a Kingdom does not really describe "Medri Bahri", in some other sources(including this one), parts of Medri Bahri were more like federal republic and had shimagle (council of elders) and not a "king". Also logically speaking, if the title of Bahrnagash is giving by an "Ethiopian emperor" yet that title was no longer in use or even relevant after
Bahr negus Yeshaq, then tying the title of Bahrnagash with the existence or nonexistence of "Medri Bahri" is incorrect. Apparently from the source, "governor of Hamasien" is limited to a district of Medri Bahri and not the entirety. If ras alula was not fully in control of the entire Medri Bahri, then it reasons that Medri Bahri as a entity did not end with the arrest of Woldemichale(walda-mikael).
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
20:12, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
My Recommendation Read the
[8] "The Loss of Marab-Mellash" section from the this Book title "Between the Jaws of Hyenas: A Diplomatic History of Ethiopia (1876-1896)" it really gives more details on the districts that made up "Medri Bahri"(in Tigrinya language it means "Land of the Sea") while its Ethiopian version of 'Marab Mellash' (in Amharic language it means "Beyond the Marab river"). This region was named as such by both sides to define the region. The Title of "Bahrnagash" did not give nor necessarily take away from the entity which existed in the region of "Medri Bahri". I just dont understand why there are so many Double standards when it comes to Eritrean history and Ethiopian History gets so many Copouts! There is clearly a DOUBLE Standard on Wikipedia when it comes to Eritrean history. This is a continous behavior of Wikipedia editors who want to slant every Eritrean article with some form of "ethiopian dominance", yes I will use the term "dominance"...as in trying to dominate an Article with the bias of it's oppressor. Is Wikipedia editors choosing a side and deciding that the Ethiopian narrative dominates Eritrea even after all the FACTS provided?
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
01:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Disclosure: I'm not sure what the issue is about, but
Uknowofwiki tried to explain it to me and asked me to comment
[9]. Uknowofwiki,
LeGabrie and
François Robere, could you each explain what you believe the kingdom's boundaries are, when it was established, and when it was deestablished?
Soupforone (
talk)
06:01, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Seems like some disruptive editing might be going on here despite protection. Here I came across an edit removing referenced material as "not referenced". 151.177.58.208 ( talk) 14:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
User:ZemenfesKidus, you're the one that is changing content hence its you who needs to explain your changes, thats how BRD works. See WP:CYCLE. We dont remove content, we dont agree with if its sourced. Magherbin ( talk) 21:38, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The text in the lead para from "Situated in present-day Eritrea..." to "became a Republic appearing on European maps as 'The Republic of Hamasien'" is almost word-for-word from the text at [1], which had been tagged by CorenBot but the tag was removed by the article creator without removing the copyvio text. The final sentence in the lead para is also a direct lift from the same source.-- CharlieDelta ( talk) 22:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from:
Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
@Resourcer1, dont add unrelated polities. Tigray region which was part of the
Ethiopian Empire, did not encompass modern day Eritrea or Medri Bahri as it use to be called. You also removed the source explaining Medri being a vassal state. Please familiar yourself with censorship. The James Bruce citation also makes no mention of Medri being apart of Tigray province. Its not supported by the citation.
Duqsene (
talk)
16:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
There have been edits to this article leading to the POV that Medri Bahri is solely succeeded by a less than 10 year highly contested Occupation of "Medri Bahri" territory. Some edits show that the false logic of "Medri Bahri" = "Bahr Negash", 1. Medri Bahr = Land of the Sea 2. Bahr Negash = King of the Sea, the falsity in this logic is that without a Bahr Negash, then Medri Bahr does not exist. Does a Country cease to exist, a Country being the Population, Culture, Land, and Villages, towns because the King is no longer the king? Users like LeGabrie are using this logic to steer the article to a "Ethiopian-owned" narrative which is highly contested by Eritreans of today and Eritreans of the times of Medri Bahr. The POV tag will stay in place until this article is a neutral state. Currently, LeGabrie's edits have slanted this article to a Ethiopian-Biased Narrative!
Authorityofwiki (
talk)
18:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
![]() |
Background: Edit war between
User:Authorityofwiki and
User:LeGabrie leading to a discussion on
User talk:Uknowofwiki and an
ANI discussion, where it was suggested to ask for a
WP:3O.
First, a remark on conduct: I would've preferred if this discussion took place on this talk page, rather than on edit summaries, user talk pages and noticeboards (this discussion should certainly have not taken place on a noticeboard - you should've come there with an unresolved discussion, not with no discussion at all). I would also have preferred if the WP:3O request [2] had followed the accepted format for such requests - a simple, concise one-liner - as specified on that page. Please take note for future occasions. As for the question of how long did the kingdom last: Among the pages this discussion has spread on I've seen no compelling arguments either way, thus my provisional opinion is as follows: A kingdom, by definition, is a legal entity, not a national entity: It suggests first and foremost a form of government, with few related cultural aspects. Based solely on this semantic fact, one can conclude the kingdom in question did indeed cease to exist the moment it was conquered and the monarch expelled. If the kingdom was re-established after the Ethiopian occupation we could've suggested that it had continued to exist in some transitional form, pending relevant sources on the state of the state throughout the occupation (eg. the state's bureaucracy and legal system), but it didn't, and so there's no reason to claim otherwise. However, it is not up to us to determine such things by semantics alone; rather, we're to rely on more qualified sources to provide that analysis... I would therefore ask for each of you to attach their relevant sources below, so we can see which has the support of subject matter experts. |
1) "Bahre Negashi (Lord of the Sea). Title of the governor of the central Eritrean area from the coast around Massawa and Zula to the Mareb River, being the district often refered to as Mareb Mellash. The title appears first in the late 1440's (...) The last Bahre Negashi was Ras Wolde-Mikael Solomun, who died in exile in Ethiopia." -p. 111-2
2) "In August 1879, Emperor Yohannes appointed Ras Alula military governor of Mareb Mellash, which he ruled for a decade with a garrison of Tigrayan troops. His first act was to appease and then arrest Ras Wolde-Mika'el, after which he consolidated his administrative control over the highlands from his base at Ade Tekle, Hamasien. In 1884, Ras Alula moved his capital to the village of Asmara. (...) In 1889, he took most of his soldiers to fight with Yohannes at Metemma, and the Italians took advantage of his absence to occupy the highlands. -p. 66
Furthermore, here quotes from Belula Tecle-Misghina's "Asmara - an urban history":
3) "One of these (remark: smaller nations) was Medri Bahri (land of the sea) that, following the arrival of the Turks (remark: 1557), was reduced to a much smaller region, situated in the interior and landlocked: Mareb Mellash, beyond the Mareb, the river". -p. 14
4) "The year 1875 marked the beginning of a conflict that ended only in 1879, signalling the end of the region of Medri Bahri. The area of Asmara was thus subjugated to Ethiopia under the rule of Ras Alula (...) The domain of Ras Alula ended in 1889 with the Italian occupation of Asmara." -p. 29
Conclusion: Woldemichael Solomon was the last Bahr Negash of what was left of Medri Bahri. He was immprisoned in 1879, and Ras Alula, a governor of the
Ethiopian Empire, seized control until he had to give up the Eritrean highlands in 1889, which were subsequently annexed by Italy and declared as part of their
Italian Eritrea colony. Thus the lifespan of the Medri Bahri kingdom, i.e. the domain of the Bahr Negash, should be given from the 15th century to 1879. The direct successors of the polity were the
Ottomans, who seized the coastal regions in 1557 and the Ethiopian Empire, that occupied the Eritrean highlands until 1889. Italian Eritrea should be removed from the Infobox as "successor", since its foundation postdates the disempowerment of the last Bahr Negash by 10/11 years.
User:Uknowofwiki must now provide a source that confirms the survival of the Medri Bahri kingdom and the title Bahr Negash beyond the imprisonment of Woldemichael.
LeGabrie (
talk)
17:57, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
QUESTION Why is the premise based on LeGabrie's logic therefore making this exercise preloaded with a question and intent to claim there will be a third opinion? The Third Opinion User Francouis Robere has already agreed with LeGabrie. Because to say with one statement that the Ottomans are successors yet were pushed back by Eritreans(MedriBahrian people) and then give undue Weight to Ras Alula's less than 10 years occupation (which was resisted by the MedriBahrians), however on the flip side completely Disregard the
Italian Eritrea as a successor? The Standards used are Not the Same for the Ottomans, for the Abyssinians(Ras alula), and the
Italian Eritrea. This is completely Biased and Incorrectly presented premise by the TH\hird Opinion. You Third Opinion have already Rigged (Fixed) the Argument by Making the "Standards" in a way to solely agree with LeGabrie's illogical conclusion of: "Ottomans and Abyssinians" as successors yet "Italian Eritrea" as Not, solely one year, if 1557 makes the Ottomans the successors, then Medri Bahri ended in 1557 and using the Bahrnagash as sole identifor of Medri Bahri which ws originally prior to Abyssinian Emperor, was called Maikele Bahre "In Between the Sea and the Land". The Office of the "Bahrnagash" was externally given title yet Ras Woldemichael Defeated the Abyssinian imposed Bahrnagash in war. The inconstitencies and changing the standards and definitions is the problem with Abyssinian-Ethiopian agenda driven Arguments here.
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
05:28, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
[4] Page 429, states "from early 1300s to 1889, the kingdom of Medri Bahri incorporated much of Eritrea", then proceeds to say "From 1889 to 1941 Italian colonial forces occupied Eritrea." Treaty of Wuchale is an official document.
Italian Eritrea is the successor of the Medri Bahri.
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
17:21, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Nor did Ras Alula have complete control of Medri Bahri since apparently there was open rebellion against him. I provided a source and your unwillingness to read the sources does not take away from the two sources I provided.
Italian Eritrea is the official Successor to Medri Bahri. Again what was Ras Alula's "domain" over "Medri Bahri" called? Right, it was still Medri Bahri, the name of the COUNTRY! Show a map that gives a name for Ras Alula's "domain" of "Medri Bahri", was it called "Ras Alula's domain?" Was there an official document that you have as a source? I can attack your sources too, apparently you refuse to read my sources and actually comment, Flip the page to the page after 68 like I stated, 68 and on, you will read about the different rebels against Ras Alula...including
Bahta Hagos in addition to Ras Woldemikael's rebellion against Alula.
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
19:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I've went through the sources, and what they seem to suggest is this: The kingdom of Medri Bahri was at the center of several wars and attempts of conquest, and for much of its history was subject to one of its more powerful neighbours or to Euro/Asian invading powers. After one such conquest it was limited to the geographic region of Mareb Mellash, which was eventually invaded by Ethiopian forces. All of the sources agree that after this invasion the rule of the Bahre Negashi ceased to exist. The governor on behalf of the invading forces, Ras Alula, established a permanent base within the conquered territory; there is nothing to suggest the territory maintained any sort of autonomous rule beyond that of the Ethiopian-installed governor. It seems to have had no "successor" - it simply ceased to exist. However, insofar as we must state who succeeded the administrative responsibilities of the kingdom after its fall, the answer is clear: the governorate headed by Ras Alula, as part of the Ethiopian empire.
Several claims have been raised that I wish to address:
To summarise: The immediate successor of the Kingdom of Medri Bahri was not an Italian, but an Ethiopian governorate; several sources refer to it as the governorate of Mareb Mellash, one of Hamasen (or rather, they refer to Alula as "the governor of..."). I suggest using the first.
Best regards,
François Robere ( talk) 23:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I will be unprotecting the article tomorrow to give time to François Robere to respond if they wish to. I do not expect edit warring to occur after protection is lifted. Uknowofwiki, I'm looking specifically at you. You can pursue further dispute resolution options but do so without edit warring and civilly. More comments like the "kangaroo court" one may convince the community that you are not interested in achieving consensus, but rather only in seeing your preferred version of the article put in place no matter what. -- NeilN talk to me 13:24, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't believe the Ottoman empire should be listed as a successor to Medri Bahri - the supposed succession in this case was an exchange of land and resulting substitution of power at a local level, wherein "succession" suggests a complete replacement by, or evolution of one political entity into another. If the article was about the local government of the area in question then we could list the local Ottoman administration as succeeding the local Medri Bahri one, but as the article is about the kingdom at large I don't think it's applicable. François Robere ( talk) 15:51, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
[7] Pages 140-144, 150, 173, 432 Just searched for "Walda-mikael" = "Woldemichael", I find that the story is more than just he(walda-mikael) was "arrested by Ras alula and thats the end of Medri Bahri". There were many Medri Bahri (MarabMellash)-excuse the spelling there are many variations of its spelling but it basically is referring to "Medri Bahri", Notable individuals and groups fighting to control Medri Bahri. To present in this article as if Ras Alula was the sole power in Medri Bahri is an oversimplification based on a simplified source written by Dan Connell. In fact, the title of Bahrnegash meant nothing at this point in Medri Bahri's history. Read the source provided. Emperor Yohannes appointed Ras Alula as governor but that governorship was contested violently by the Local chieftains(notables) and that Walda-mikael and his family continued their influence in Medri Bahri even during his arrest. Again, equating "Medri Bahri" as strictly a kingdom is incorrect as a Kingdom does not really describe "Medri Bahri", in some other sources(including this one), parts of Medri Bahri were more like federal republic and had shimagle (council of elders) and not a "king". Also logically speaking, if the title of Bahrnagash is giving by an "Ethiopian emperor" yet that title was no longer in use or even relevant after
Bahr negus Yeshaq, then tying the title of Bahrnagash with the existence or nonexistence of "Medri Bahri" is incorrect. Apparently from the source, "governor of Hamasien" is limited to a district of Medri Bahri and not the entirety. If ras alula was not fully in control of the entire Medri Bahri, then it reasons that Medri Bahri as a entity did not end with the arrest of Woldemichale(walda-mikael).
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
20:12, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
My Recommendation Read the
[8] "The Loss of Marab-Mellash" section from the this Book title "Between the Jaws of Hyenas: A Diplomatic History of Ethiopia (1876-1896)" it really gives more details on the districts that made up "Medri Bahri"(in Tigrinya language it means "Land of the Sea") while its Ethiopian version of 'Marab Mellash' (in Amharic language it means "Beyond the Marab river"). This region was named as such by both sides to define the region. The Title of "Bahrnagash" did not give nor necessarily take away from the entity which existed in the region of "Medri Bahri". I just dont understand why there are so many Double standards when it comes to Eritrean history and Ethiopian History gets so many Copouts! There is clearly a DOUBLE Standard on Wikipedia when it comes to Eritrean history. This is a continous behavior of Wikipedia editors who want to slant every Eritrean article with some form of "ethiopian dominance", yes I will use the term "dominance"...as in trying to dominate an Article with the bias of it's oppressor. Is Wikipedia editors choosing a side and deciding that the Ethiopian narrative dominates Eritrea even after all the FACTS provided?
Uknowofwiki (
talk)
01:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Disclosure: I'm not sure what the issue is about, but
Uknowofwiki tried to explain it to me and asked me to comment
[9]. Uknowofwiki,
LeGabrie and
François Robere, could you each explain what you believe the kingdom's boundaries are, when it was established, and when it was deestablished?
Soupforone (
talk)
06:01, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Seems like some disruptive editing might be going on here despite protection. Here I came across an edit removing referenced material as "not referenced". 151.177.58.208 ( talk) 14:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
User:ZemenfesKidus, you're the one that is changing content hence its you who needs to explain your changes, thats how BRD works. See WP:CYCLE. We dont remove content, we dont agree with if its sourced. Magherbin ( talk) 21:38, 7 March 2022 (UTC)