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I think this list is worth having, if added to! But what order should it be in?
Much more imporantly, what's it's geographic and cultural scope? Do you mean Medieval European philosophy, or Early Christian philosophy, or Medieval Christian philosophy, or what? BTW no philosophers coudl be non-Christians in this era in Europe or they would have been burned at the stake. ;-0)
Then please do explain Maimonides (Jewish) and Averroes (Muslim).
It is too Europe-centric to claim ownership of an entire era - there was much interaction between people like Aquinas and the important Muslims like the Mutazilite - but also the Asharite and the disciplines of isnah and fiqh. For this history see Early Muslim philosophy (historical and political perspective) and Islamic philosophy (the actual arguments mostly re: Aristotle, discussing the chain of influences from ancient Greek and Rome via Islam to medieval Islam and Europe). Having two such treatments for Early Christian philosophy and Christian theology <-- what Christians did was not 'philosophy' by The Renaissance - philosophy itself had to be revived by inputs from Islam, mostly methodological. Then of course as Christianity woke up and got scientific, Islam went to sleep and forgot that it invented science... Is it really correct to talk about these strains geographically or within faiths? Or is it just that all "Western" Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought is one thing? In which case the Islamics must be in the 'medieval' list too.
Yes, of course. I have no bias against Islamic influences but European medieval philosophy is a reasonably defied area. I am happy to move the list down a level and link it from this page, allowing futre links to Islamic and other areas.
My only reservation is that "medieval" makes sense in a European context and, to some extent, Islamic. But makes little sense in Indian or Chinese contexts.
---
I don't think that Garsonides should be in this list, which is of chritian philosophers. He should be start of another list of Jewish philosophers. UNless a strong case is made to merge these two categoroes, I should like to remove him.
---
You don't seem to have read the opening disclaimer above the list. I know that there are important names outside the scholastic tradition and would be only too happy to see them listed. Would you be satisfied if I push this whole page down a level and leave a niche for someone to deal with other medieval philosophies? BevRowe
I, for one, disagree. Citing only Christian philosophers is misleading and exclusionary. How can we discuss the philosophy of the time without mentioning Avicenna, Averroes, and Maimondides? Yet, they were Muslims and Jews. Danny
The opening disclaimer means little. If you want an exclusive list for Christian medieval philosophy it is very easy.make a page. User:Two16
In agreement with Two16 and Danny, I note that many U.S. College courses on medieval philosophy mention both Islamic and Jewish philosophers, as well as Christian ones. Consider this book: "Readings in Medieval Philosophy" Edited by Andrew B. Schoedinger. "The most comprehensive collection of its kind, this unique anthology presents fifty-four readings--many of them not widely available--by the most important and influential Christian, Jewish, and Muslim philosophers of the Middle Ages." RK Readings in Medieval Philosophy
I'd say that the scope of medieval extends only to Christian-ruled Europe, and so thinkers like Maimonides are not Medieval thinkers, but it is impossible to understand medieval philosophy without the impact of thinkers within Muslim-ruled areas. I suggest that we have a section Influences from outside Christian Europe, and include a list of the key contemporary figures; I guess I would have:
Thoughts? While I'm on the subject, I know of Al-Ghazali's influence on medieval thought, but almost nothing of what it consists of. Who read him? --- Charles Stewart 18:35, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems that there has already been some attempt to bridge the gap in Medieval philosophy (Christian-Jewish-Muslim/Arabic philosphy) on Wikipedia. I think what we need is a Medieval philosophy template. This, or something similar, can be added to the template: Christian philosophy, early Muslim philosophy, Jewish philosophy, Scholastic philosophy Someone put those links at the bottom of the "list of philosophers", which IMHO should be turned into "notable philosophers" and perhaps divided into "Christian scholastics", "Jewish philosophers", and "Arabic/Muslim philosophers" just for that short list that appears on the "Medival philsophy" main page ("complete" lists like List of scholastic philosophers can be added for the latter two at a later date). Sorry for the vagueness and lack of clarity in writing - it is late and I somehow got myself into Medieval Philosophy on a Friday night... And now that I think of it, there is always the inevitable Western/Eastern philosophy contract. Since Wikipedia is supposed to be a compendium of everything worldwide, Eastern philosophy during the Middle Ages should at least be linked to from this page. FranksValli 06:31, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
This article needs some love! The tone just seems off, the section on trends and concepts seems only tangentally related to trends and concepts, and there's almost no detail on what, aside from a focus on theology, distinguished medieval philosophy. Mostly, I think, it just needs content, but the content that is here needs to be cleaned up a little, too. - Seth Mahoney 21:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm still pondering the wisdom of having a medieval philosophy page distinct from a scholastic philosophy page.
A technique of arguing, a style of writing, and a world view (Catholic and Aristotelian), and lots of Latin.
Is there any medieval philosophy which is not also scholastic?
Early and middle periods of scholasticism are of course medieval. The late or "second Scholasticism" of the 16C, which still awaits an article, is not. There is also "Baroque Scholasticism" which was German. There are also the Paduan and Iberian scholasticism. Then there is neo-scholasticism and neo-Thomism. Dean.
There is also the question of whether scholastic logic is any different from scholastic philosophy. I'll pass on that one. Dbuckner 17:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Is this article specifically about European philosophy? deeptrivia ( talk) 04:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't Francisco Suárez (1548–1617) be added to the list? Admittedly if he's considered Medieval at all, he's one of the last of the Medievals. However, he's not a Modernist... he predates Descartes (or rather, overlaps Descartes), however I think he can be very much considered a Medieval, especially since his writings are in the scholastic method. But if he's not a Medievalist, where does he fit in our History of Western philosophy? Surely he's not to be considered a part of Renaissance philosophy, even though he's writing in the same time period? I think this is somewhat important - Suarez should at least be mentioned in History of Western philosophy or some sub-page like this one ( Medieval philosophy). I think he's underrated but important. For instance, before reading Descartes, it's useful to read Suarez to understand the Medieval view of types of distinctions, likes modes. Descartes's "I think, therefore I am" relies on this understanding of modes (see Instantiation principle)... FranksValli 08:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Many medieval thinkers such as Spinoza, Leibniz...
That's not many, that is a lot !
( Lunarian 11:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC))
Bull's-eye ! :-D !
What to put in this section? Assume it ends before Anselm, who is the first scholastic. Then that gives about the same as the length of the Islamic section to develop all of the period 400 – 1050.
Augustine over Boethius, probably, but perhaps space for both, given there aren't that many philosophers in between. Then
edward (buckner) 15:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Also wise to engage with some of the other articles that verge on this topic, e.g. Christian theology, History of Christianity esp. Church of the Early Middle Ages (476 – 800) section, and Carolingian Renaissance.
Already realised I've been using 'High Middle Ages' wrongly. It refers to the period beginning 800 AD, whereas it is the High Scholastic period of the 13th and 14th century I was thinking of.
Except the High Middle Ages article itself says it begins in 1000, which is what I thought. Contains the splendidly 1066 sentence "The High Middle Ages were preceded by the Early Middle Ages and followed by the Late Middle Ages".
OK a check on a few more reputable sites confirms that the high middle ages were 1000 to 1300. So History of Christianity has got it dead wrong. The trouble is now that if you Google anything these days, up pops Wiki like a bad penny. edward (buckner) 16:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Medieval is not a correct attribute for the middle east. As Henry Corbin describes in his book, History of Islamic Philosophy, philosophy in the Muslim worlds including Middle East, Central Asia, Indian sub-continent, North Africa and Andulusia have different stages. He says Needless to say, the epochs in the history of Islamic philosophy cannot, save by a verbal artifice, be subjected to our usual system of dividing the history of philosophy—and history in general—into three periods which we call Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and modern times. It would be equally inappropriate to say that the Middle Ages have continued down to our day, for the very notion of the Middle Ages presupposes a vision of history thematized according to a particular perspective... And we in our turn cannot impose upon them a chronological schema imported from a foreign world. Thus I suggest changing the lead and substituting Islamic philosophy in the Middle Ages with Early Islamic philosophy. Some part of the article does not fit to Mulim world at that age. For example it's written Medieval philosophy is characteristically theological: with the possible exceptions of Avicenna and Averroes, medieval thinkers did not consider themselves philosophers at all. While Corbin says The clear-cut distinction which exists in the West between 'philosophy' and 'theology' goes back to medieval scholasticism, and it presupposes a process of 'secularization' the idea of which could not exist in Islam, primarily because Islam has never experienced the phenomenon of the Church, with all its implications and consequences. There were several renowned philosophers at that time among Muslims and later philosophy overcome theology in the eastern part of Muslim world and both of them are affected by Sufism.-- Seyyed( t- c) 11:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not an expert but I find the sentence "Yet this period of nearly a thousand years was the longest period of philosophical development in Europe, and possibly the richest." in the lead part of the article to be utterly unbelievable. Much of it wasn't development it was regress and apart from the final part the only contributions were in theology not philosophy.
It might have had some relevance a year ago when the article included a reasonable section on Islamic philosophy, which was about the only place where thinking was going on, but that's been removed. Could someone rephrase please. Chris55 ( talk) 19:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
It took me a moment to realise that the bar chart under "See also" refers to lines of Jewish philosophy. Can someone perhaps move it to go under that bullet, or at least give it a caption? (I don't have the formatting skill.) Herbgold ( talk) 09:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
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Thought of the Middle ages has a reputation. The term "dark ages" is already mentioned, but there is more to it than that. The word Gothic is used commonly to refer to dark things such as the poetry and stories of Edgar Allen Poe.
The only good example I can think of is from Robert Crumb, who introduced Zap Comix No. 1 (1967, Apex Novelties) by ridiculously claiming to be "one of the world's last great Medieval thinkers" along with "From the bedroom closet, I operate a huge network of radios, sending out incantations, curses voodoo hoodoo." There must be other examples that could be listed. That might even make this article a bit more comprehensible to a wider audience. David R. Ingham 02:02, 28 February 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Ransford Ingham ( talk • contribs) (Edited 3/14/20)
A, perhaps even better, example is the false but common statement that a subject of medieval philosophy was "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" David R. Ingham 04:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Ransford Ingham ( talk • contribs)
I'm marking this down from "B" to "C" due to the lack of coverage of Medieval philosophers in Islamic philosophy, Jewish philosophy, Byzantine philosophy etc. It looks like this has been mentioned on this talk page above, but the tradition is fairly continuous here between Avicenna, Averroes, Maimonides, etc. and Latin philosophers like Aquinas so it makes sense to cover them all on the same page. - car chasm ( talk) 18:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
I reassessed the Vital Articles assessment to C-class. The article fails the B-class criteria. Also, I am going to chop all but three of the "External links". A discussion may change this around but I am just picking all after the first three. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.
Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
Minimize the number of links. -- Otr500 ( talk) 07:05, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
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I think this list is worth having, if added to! But what order should it be in?
Much more imporantly, what's it's geographic and cultural scope? Do you mean Medieval European philosophy, or Early Christian philosophy, or Medieval Christian philosophy, or what? BTW no philosophers coudl be non-Christians in this era in Europe or they would have been burned at the stake. ;-0)
Then please do explain Maimonides (Jewish) and Averroes (Muslim).
It is too Europe-centric to claim ownership of an entire era - there was much interaction between people like Aquinas and the important Muslims like the Mutazilite - but also the Asharite and the disciplines of isnah and fiqh. For this history see Early Muslim philosophy (historical and political perspective) and Islamic philosophy (the actual arguments mostly re: Aristotle, discussing the chain of influences from ancient Greek and Rome via Islam to medieval Islam and Europe). Having two such treatments for Early Christian philosophy and Christian theology <-- what Christians did was not 'philosophy' by The Renaissance - philosophy itself had to be revived by inputs from Islam, mostly methodological. Then of course as Christianity woke up and got scientific, Islam went to sleep and forgot that it invented science... Is it really correct to talk about these strains geographically or within faiths? Or is it just that all "Western" Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought is one thing? In which case the Islamics must be in the 'medieval' list too.
Yes, of course. I have no bias against Islamic influences but European medieval philosophy is a reasonably defied area. I am happy to move the list down a level and link it from this page, allowing futre links to Islamic and other areas.
My only reservation is that "medieval" makes sense in a European context and, to some extent, Islamic. But makes little sense in Indian or Chinese contexts.
---
I don't think that Garsonides should be in this list, which is of chritian philosophers. He should be start of another list of Jewish philosophers. UNless a strong case is made to merge these two categoroes, I should like to remove him.
---
You don't seem to have read the opening disclaimer above the list. I know that there are important names outside the scholastic tradition and would be only too happy to see them listed. Would you be satisfied if I push this whole page down a level and leave a niche for someone to deal with other medieval philosophies? BevRowe
I, for one, disagree. Citing only Christian philosophers is misleading and exclusionary. How can we discuss the philosophy of the time without mentioning Avicenna, Averroes, and Maimondides? Yet, they were Muslims and Jews. Danny
The opening disclaimer means little. If you want an exclusive list for Christian medieval philosophy it is very easy.make a page. User:Two16
In agreement with Two16 and Danny, I note that many U.S. College courses on medieval philosophy mention both Islamic and Jewish philosophers, as well as Christian ones. Consider this book: "Readings in Medieval Philosophy" Edited by Andrew B. Schoedinger. "The most comprehensive collection of its kind, this unique anthology presents fifty-four readings--many of them not widely available--by the most important and influential Christian, Jewish, and Muslim philosophers of the Middle Ages." RK Readings in Medieval Philosophy
I'd say that the scope of medieval extends only to Christian-ruled Europe, and so thinkers like Maimonides are not Medieval thinkers, but it is impossible to understand medieval philosophy without the impact of thinkers within Muslim-ruled areas. I suggest that we have a section Influences from outside Christian Europe, and include a list of the key contemporary figures; I guess I would have:
Thoughts? While I'm on the subject, I know of Al-Ghazali's influence on medieval thought, but almost nothing of what it consists of. Who read him? --- Charles Stewart 18:35, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems that there has already been some attempt to bridge the gap in Medieval philosophy (Christian-Jewish-Muslim/Arabic philosphy) on Wikipedia. I think what we need is a Medieval philosophy template. This, or something similar, can be added to the template: Christian philosophy, early Muslim philosophy, Jewish philosophy, Scholastic philosophy Someone put those links at the bottom of the "list of philosophers", which IMHO should be turned into "notable philosophers" and perhaps divided into "Christian scholastics", "Jewish philosophers", and "Arabic/Muslim philosophers" just for that short list that appears on the "Medival philsophy" main page ("complete" lists like List of scholastic philosophers can be added for the latter two at a later date). Sorry for the vagueness and lack of clarity in writing - it is late and I somehow got myself into Medieval Philosophy on a Friday night... And now that I think of it, there is always the inevitable Western/Eastern philosophy contract. Since Wikipedia is supposed to be a compendium of everything worldwide, Eastern philosophy during the Middle Ages should at least be linked to from this page. FranksValli 06:31, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
This article needs some love! The tone just seems off, the section on trends and concepts seems only tangentally related to trends and concepts, and there's almost no detail on what, aside from a focus on theology, distinguished medieval philosophy. Mostly, I think, it just needs content, but the content that is here needs to be cleaned up a little, too. - Seth Mahoney 21:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm still pondering the wisdom of having a medieval philosophy page distinct from a scholastic philosophy page.
A technique of arguing, a style of writing, and a world view (Catholic and Aristotelian), and lots of Latin.
Is there any medieval philosophy which is not also scholastic?
Early and middle periods of scholasticism are of course medieval. The late or "second Scholasticism" of the 16C, which still awaits an article, is not. There is also "Baroque Scholasticism" which was German. There are also the Paduan and Iberian scholasticism. Then there is neo-scholasticism and neo-Thomism. Dean.
There is also the question of whether scholastic logic is any different from scholastic philosophy. I'll pass on that one. Dbuckner 17:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Is this article specifically about European philosophy? deeptrivia ( talk) 04:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't Francisco Suárez (1548–1617) be added to the list? Admittedly if he's considered Medieval at all, he's one of the last of the Medievals. However, he's not a Modernist... he predates Descartes (or rather, overlaps Descartes), however I think he can be very much considered a Medieval, especially since his writings are in the scholastic method. But if he's not a Medievalist, where does he fit in our History of Western philosophy? Surely he's not to be considered a part of Renaissance philosophy, even though he's writing in the same time period? I think this is somewhat important - Suarez should at least be mentioned in History of Western philosophy or some sub-page like this one ( Medieval philosophy). I think he's underrated but important. For instance, before reading Descartes, it's useful to read Suarez to understand the Medieval view of types of distinctions, likes modes. Descartes's "I think, therefore I am" relies on this understanding of modes (see Instantiation principle)... FranksValli 08:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Many medieval thinkers such as Spinoza, Leibniz...
That's not many, that is a lot !
( Lunarian 11:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC))
Bull's-eye ! :-D !
What to put in this section? Assume it ends before Anselm, who is the first scholastic. Then that gives about the same as the length of the Islamic section to develop all of the period 400 – 1050.
Augustine over Boethius, probably, but perhaps space for both, given there aren't that many philosophers in between. Then
edward (buckner) 15:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Also wise to engage with some of the other articles that verge on this topic, e.g. Christian theology, History of Christianity esp. Church of the Early Middle Ages (476 – 800) section, and Carolingian Renaissance.
Already realised I've been using 'High Middle Ages' wrongly. It refers to the period beginning 800 AD, whereas it is the High Scholastic period of the 13th and 14th century I was thinking of.
Except the High Middle Ages article itself says it begins in 1000, which is what I thought. Contains the splendidly 1066 sentence "The High Middle Ages were preceded by the Early Middle Ages and followed by the Late Middle Ages".
OK a check on a few more reputable sites confirms that the high middle ages were 1000 to 1300. So History of Christianity has got it dead wrong. The trouble is now that if you Google anything these days, up pops Wiki like a bad penny. edward (buckner) 16:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Medieval is not a correct attribute for the middle east. As Henry Corbin describes in his book, History of Islamic Philosophy, philosophy in the Muslim worlds including Middle East, Central Asia, Indian sub-continent, North Africa and Andulusia have different stages. He says Needless to say, the epochs in the history of Islamic philosophy cannot, save by a verbal artifice, be subjected to our usual system of dividing the history of philosophy—and history in general—into three periods which we call Antiquity, the Middle Ages, and modern times. It would be equally inappropriate to say that the Middle Ages have continued down to our day, for the very notion of the Middle Ages presupposes a vision of history thematized according to a particular perspective... And we in our turn cannot impose upon them a chronological schema imported from a foreign world. Thus I suggest changing the lead and substituting Islamic philosophy in the Middle Ages with Early Islamic philosophy. Some part of the article does not fit to Mulim world at that age. For example it's written Medieval philosophy is characteristically theological: with the possible exceptions of Avicenna and Averroes, medieval thinkers did not consider themselves philosophers at all. While Corbin says The clear-cut distinction which exists in the West between 'philosophy' and 'theology' goes back to medieval scholasticism, and it presupposes a process of 'secularization' the idea of which could not exist in Islam, primarily because Islam has never experienced the phenomenon of the Church, with all its implications and consequences. There were several renowned philosophers at that time among Muslims and later philosophy overcome theology in the eastern part of Muslim world and both of them are affected by Sufism.-- Seyyed( t- c) 11:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not an expert but I find the sentence "Yet this period of nearly a thousand years was the longest period of philosophical development in Europe, and possibly the richest." in the lead part of the article to be utterly unbelievable. Much of it wasn't development it was regress and apart from the final part the only contributions were in theology not philosophy.
It might have had some relevance a year ago when the article included a reasonable section on Islamic philosophy, which was about the only place where thinking was going on, but that's been removed. Could someone rephrase please. Chris55 ( talk) 19:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
It took me a moment to realise that the bar chart under "See also" refers to lines of Jewish philosophy. Can someone perhaps move it to go under that bullet, or at least give it a caption? (I don't have the formatting skill.) Herbgold ( talk) 09:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
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Thought of the Middle ages has a reputation. The term "dark ages" is already mentioned, but there is more to it than that. The word Gothic is used commonly to refer to dark things such as the poetry and stories of Edgar Allen Poe.
The only good example I can think of is from Robert Crumb, who introduced Zap Comix No. 1 (1967, Apex Novelties) by ridiculously claiming to be "one of the world's last great Medieval thinkers" along with "From the bedroom closet, I operate a huge network of radios, sending out incantations, curses voodoo hoodoo." There must be other examples that could be listed. That might even make this article a bit more comprehensible to a wider audience. David R. Ingham 02:02, 28 February 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Ransford Ingham ( talk • contribs) (Edited 3/14/20)
A, perhaps even better, example is the false but common statement that a subject of medieval philosophy was "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" David R. Ingham 04:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by David Ransford Ingham ( talk • contribs)
I'm marking this down from "B" to "C" due to the lack of coverage of Medieval philosophers in Islamic philosophy, Jewish philosophy, Byzantine philosophy etc. It looks like this has been mentioned on this talk page above, but the tradition is fairly continuous here between Avicenna, Averroes, Maimonides, etc. and Latin philosophers like Aquinas so it makes sense to cover them all on the same page. - car chasm ( talk) 18:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
I reassessed the Vital Articles assessment to C-class. The article fails the B-class criteria. Also, I am going to chop all but three of the "External links". A discussion may change this around but I am just picking all after the first three. Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.
Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
Minimize the number of links. -- Otr500 ( talk) 07:05, 14 February 2023 (UTC)