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The section should be kept, anyone wanting to know about mecha should also know of the debate mecha fans have for their practical application, as a replacement for, or companion to, tanks, infantry, and other modern combat systems. Vechs 02:39, 28 June 2006
Unfortunately, as I pointed out above, its factuality is subject to debate. I could write a whole 'nother post on the current problems with the section. Its been edited since I pointed out its problems, but it keeps the same conclusions. I don't know how much more conclusively I can shoot those full of holes.
If there's going to be a debate about this, let's do it here and not on the article. As things stand I have half a mind to edit the article to a more balanced POV. Kensai Max 19:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Specifically...
Mobility section: Center of gravity is essentially unimportant as long as it's somewhere in the mid-chest to hips section, as in humans, even when they're carrying a heavy backpack. I remind you that hikers and mountaineers rarely have any problem negotiating steep slopes. Any deployable mecha wouldn't be prone to tripping and could compensate for any sane center of gravity. Weight distribution is an easy engineering problem, not a valid "counter-argument".
Soldiers often have to fight in very broken terrain in the real world. Afghanistan, for instance. The whole world ain't an Iraqi desert. A mecha could easily carry tank-level weaponry into any situation infantry could be sent into except the most torturous close urban combat. Added to the high -real- top speed and flat-ground agility of humanistic mecha and you have an incredibly effective package.
Agility: The criticisms leveled here aren't valid. Any effective mecha design would be agile and easily controllable to the full range of its agility - it's simply a reality that would have to be fulfilled before the system could be considered effective. A mecha could be built out of heavy materials and simply use a powerful tank engine (or two) to provide sufficient mobility, bringing along heavy armor protection.
At a two-kilometer range (quite usual in most tank-fighting doctrine), a mecha pilot would have a full second to make a basic evasive maneuver to avoid an incoming 120mm antitank sabot round, one of the fastest projectiles in use. A second is a long time, and any minor dodge would force a miss. Simple unpredictable running patterns would make scoring a hit incredibly difficult until the mecha had gotten within about a kilometer - disastrously close range. A laser-warning receiver (detecting the gun's rangefinder) will give a sufficient heads-up for effective evasive action.
Area-effect blasts would be ineffective against an armored mecha as they would be against a tank - moreso given that a mecha can't be flipped.
Height: The supposed higher target profile of a mecha has been made too big a deal of. In most situations it wouldn't be a problem, given a mecha's other advantages. In a hull-down defensive situation a mecha can adopt a couching or lying posture. The points I raised earlier still haven't been adressed. As well, a mecha's vertical posture gives it complete immunity against top-attack weapons - like most new antitank missiles! Given the likelihood of a mecha having an armored helmet and shoulders, they'd be hitting thick armor if they hit at all.
Method of motion: Invalid complaints. Humans can sprint quite well in full armor - it's simply a question of muscle and stamina. Mecha, being machines, will have both in spades. We're not talking about making a sprinter here, simply a machine that can run in a workmanlike fashion. A quick leg cycle time isn't an issue if a mecha has near-humanlike agility - scaling a fairly slow human jog up to a 10-meter scale gives you 35 miles per hour! With that in mind, leg armor isn't a problem.
The mechanical complexity involved in mecha isn't an issue. People will deal like they always have, and the advantages with the system are so massive that they'll be happy to. It's also a largely assumed problem given that no working mecha yet exists, and nobody has yet attempted to engineer the systems involved into a repair-friendly state.
Toppling? Gimme a break. Ever heard of a roll cage? Putting out an arm to stop a fall? Staps and a crash helmet? If it's strong enough to run it can take a fall.
Weapon systems: Most heavy guns have less recoil than is commonly believed. People aren't knocked over firing elephant guns - they barely move! They may drop the gun or at worst dislocate their shoulder from poor technique, but weapons with relatively heavy recoil aren't a problem for mecha. For a mecha in the low end of the tank range of weight (as an armored 10m mecha would be - around 30 or so tons), mounting a heavy tank gun is well within the range of possibility, as are rotary antiarmor cannons like the GAU-8 or very heavy autocannons in the 60 or 70mm range - more than enough to wreck a tank at the ranges mecha could close to. This isn't even getting into missiles or 200mm grenade launchers. Kensai Max 05:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
You refute yourself on weapons recoil. A constant backwards acceleration of 1.6 m/s^2 is puny compared to just the force required to keep the mecha standing upright, let alone running. Significantly larger guns would have a large initial recoil spike, but it could be easily damped and spread out over time to around the same figure. In short, it's a non-issue with a bit of intelligent engineering, and the point should be considered invalid.
Like I have pointed out earlier, large speeds that are often touted for MBTs are largely hypothetical sprint speeds. An M1 may be able to get up to 45, but they never do outside of testing, and for good reason - the risk of throwing a track at those speeds is dire and I imagine gun accuracy is abysmal with any kind of bumpiness in the terrain due to suspension issues at those speeds. All the footage I've ever seen of tanks in combat has them moving relatively slowly and with minimal maneuvering, not dashing about as they are often claimed to be able to do. This is in direct contrast to mecha, which could easily maintain a -sustained- attack speed at the level of a tank's theoretical top speed and sprint well above it (70 is a scaled 14 mph sprint - that's a ~4:00 mile pace, which some humans can keep up for that long), across broken, swampy or obstructed terrain that would slow tanks to a crawl. The structural strength required to run precludes falling being a problem. "Soft" systems can be easily hardened against a few bumps.
Attacking mecha on technological grounds of shock resistance required is also a nonstarter. Mecha development would entail solving those problems to create a reliable machine - if they are truly issues in the first place. Again, engineering problem, not fundamental flaw in concept.
I imagine weapons and ammo would be gravy on top of the hypothetical 30 ton machine, not part of the figure, as is customary in highly modular systems like aircraft. Given that a mecha would be carrying a large amount more ammunition for its Avenger than an A-10 and would probably use a lower rate of fire, a four-ton weapons system (mostly ammo) would be able to provide around two minutes of sustained antiarmor fire. More than adequate for an assault mission, I'd say. An additional four tons could be dedicated to other weapons systems - missiles, grenade launchers, smaller guns, etc, giving the machine a war-load of ~38 tons. This same weight could be maintained with an L44 cannon, autoloader, ammo, etc. by simply cutting out most of the auxiliaries or sacrificing a certain amount of mobility - close-range maneuverability isn't as much of a problem with a full-up tank gun on the platform.
I'm afraid you have a point on armor weight, but it's not particularly important. Next-generation tank guns are so large and powerful that they will be impossible to defeat with even the weight of armor a heavy tracked vehicle can carry, so settling for a lesser, more distributed amount of armor coverage (still more than adequate to stop anything besides tank sabot rounts) coupled to a mecha's incredibly-strong and resilient internal structure, small crew area and extreme maneuverability will provide for both increased survivability on the open battlefield and against infantry in congested environments. Best of all worlds there, and the machine will have the horsepower (two turbines, one to be brought online for combat for reasons of fuel economy) for heavy applique armor if necessary. The disadvantage of light armor is more than compensated for by the advantage of being almost impossible to hit.
An armored head and shoulders are necessary in any sane scheme of armor protection to protect the sensors and critical shoulder joint area. A mecha will present a far smaller area to a top attack than a tank, thus existing top-attack weapons will likely miss altogether - and if they don't they'll hit heavy armor at a large slope. Fuel storage isn't a problem - armored tanks on the back/back hip area or storage in any open space in the torso should provide sufficient volume. Again, engineering, not fatal problem.
You forget that it's necessary to lead a target, and predict where it is, especially so when you're firing a single-shot weapon like a tank gun and have to wait for a reload. A mecha, starting its terminal attack sprint against a tank at one kilometer, will be moving at something like 35 meters per second, and will only have a useful lateral target profile of three or four meters. At a 30-degree angle, it'll be necessary to lead it by two or three times its own width, and given its agility it can swerve around and sidestep at will. Even if the pilot doesn't have time to react properly, simple evasive footwork will make it practically untargetable.
This doesn't even take into account the fact that an Avenger isn't even a particularly ideal weapon for this mission. An extremely heavy machine-gun of 75mm or so caliber will have a much longer useful range, and will be able to tear apart any tank under sustained fire.
Given current trends in tank design towards the infamous Ogre of SJ Games fame (larger and larger guns, heavier and heavier armor - regardless of what the army claims it's trying to do, that's the way the wind is blowing), fast and maneuverable mecha will provide a highly viable alternative to simply going bigger with tracks. In short, even if flat-ground kill ratios are 1:1 or even worse for mecha, their other advantages will conspire to make tanks obsolete. 24.59.66.226 02:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The entire military mecha argument is built upon an unsupportable pyramid of assumptions and thus I have come to the conclusion that the section should be removed altogether.
These are...
1. Can a mecha be built?
2. Can mecha be made reliable?
3. Can mecha be made usable in very rugged terrain?
4. Can mecha drive systems be pushed to high speeds and erratic maneuvering over rugged terrain, or at all?
5. Can mecha in any form be milspec'd?
6. Can military-grade mecha be grown and strengthened to the point that they can dominate any other armored vehiclee in combat?
This article is about #6. We have a right to be talking about #2. As such it's like the Wright brothers talking about SEAD while they're trying to figure out how to get the Flyer in the air. It's incredibly unencyclopedic and does not deserve to be on Wiki. Any further edits of the section should be to curtail it severely.
As for your points...
Actually, it is an engineering problem, and I doubt that it's that hard of one. Plenty of systems do, in fact, sustain multiton shocks every second and are none the worse for wear from it... like the suspension on main battle tanks, for instance. Given the actual mechanics of ambulatory motion and how everything works together to minimize loads and provide a smooth ride, it's really more of a question of knee-joint strength than anything else. Given that mecha can be overbuilt in a way that evolution doesn't allow for, not to mention the strength of the materials involved in their construction... I quite fail to see any kind of problem.
Mecha tripping will not destroy themselves - repeating an assertion pedantically does not make it correct. It would be an easy matter to build enough structural reinforcements (not to mention strong arms to stop a fall) into the design to make falling a minor concern. Considering that this is a combat machine, the strength of the frame will be of utmost importance, and modern materials and engineering techniques can easily make this moot. Bringing up large animals that may endanger themselves running (giraffes from breaking a leg, by the way, not falling, and tyrannosaurs are extremely debatable) is simply nonsensical in the context of a mecha with a high-strength steel skeleton and numerous mechanical shock absorbers and cushioning throughout. Tripping will not be a routine problem with any working mecha system - screw Murphy, this is a fact of being deployable.
Actually, modern tanks do have accuracy problems when moving at speed. You shouldn't take claimed abilities based on a pancake desert or plain and apply them to everything - it's quite simply a matter of how well the suspension and gun stabilization can hold up to a bumpy ride. Over a certain level, the gun isn't going to be pointing at the target any more, and you miss. It's just not as much of an issue as it used to be. Modern tankers very much prefer to be stopped or moving slowly when firing. Meanwhile, a walking movement is a bumpier ride, but it's not affected by the actual ground quality as much, so it's really down to an egg on a spoon analogy.
Guided missiles aren't an issue. There are numerous active and passive defense systems available to deal with them, and mecha agility and speed will be extremely useful in dodging them outright - not many missiles designed to hit a lumbering tank can keep up with a machine that can make a 90-degree turn on the drop of a hat. Given that any decent missile system bypasses a tank's strong armor altogether, whereas top-attack missiles would hit a mecha's strong helmet and shoulders, mecha would have a significant advantage over tanks in that regard.
According to some very rough calculations I ran, enough armor to deal with anything but tank guns wouldn't be an issue - simply armoring overall to the level of a tank's sides, or slightly more, would deal with everything else. The surface area involved in a mecha is actually less than that of a tank when you take overall armoring requirements into account. It's not like the baseline machine I've been talking about wouldn't have enough horsepower to carry as much armor as was necessary, so armor complaints are moot except with regard to deployability issues surrounding heavy armored vehicles. With that in mind, mecha could easily grow to 70-ton armored gorillas and retain many of the benefits of ambulatory motion with tank-like armoring, but it's not desirable from a deployability standpoint. Hence, keeping the weight down and relying on agility as much as possible is ideal.
Also, another side benefit of mecha is that they could lay down their own AA fire quite nicely, or easily shoot into the top floors of buildings or whatever sewer grate the insurgents are popping out of with RPGs in urban combat. Grozny begone!
Perhaps the biggest problem with the entire mecha concept I'm talking about circles around to the first part of this post, which is as you yourself pointed out, war-mecha are a development that's a long way off. Hence, their usefulness will be judged in the standards of 2040, not that of 2006, and I'd bet that those will be significantly different. Thus the point is moot, though it does serve to illustrate how pointless a section on mecha in warfare in an encyclopedia is when every single piece of it can be disputed to the opposite end of the scale, and neither of us are "right". Until the Army puts one through its paces it's going to be someone's jackass opinion.
It seems like a bit of this article needs a heavy edit job. Agreed? Kensai Max 06:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
As you pointed out yourself, a lot of it is just hand-waving. But of course there's no denying that the development of mecha has a lot of serious engineering challanges to be overcome, and there is an issue of how practical the entire thing is.
Never say never they say, there was a time nobody saw a use for the airplane, but at the same time it's good to keep your head screwed on the right way.
I am surprised nobody mentioned ground pressure though, 40 tons of machine weight concentrated on a rather small foot area per step makes we wonder how much mobility bipedia mecha actually have. Barring ridiculus looking feet designs mecha are going to have extremely high ground pressures especially when they are running. Prehaps the MBT will probably fare better against general mud then the bipedia mecha. Quad or more legged mecha are probably more feasible, thou less glamorous for us Gundam wannabes out there.
Lets look into powered armour first, now that's something that might bear fruit some time in the somewhat near future.
Rexregum ( talk) 18:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Any comments? I removed the old section and all its quality-check and factual accuracy tags and put up my own rewrite. Sorry for taking so long. Kensai Max 05:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The original article was unacceptably bad, for extensive reasons outlined above. I'm reverting. Any revision to the old article (which was nothing less than unbridled speculation) is simply ridiculous, unless you can give me some DAMN good reasons.
I thought we'd had this argument already. Among other things, it was blatantly unencyclopedic. Kensai Max 15:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that the previous section is non-factual, unencyclopedic, and longer than the rest of the article combined. Read the above, long commentary on that issue. I'm not going to allow it in this article.
If you want a longer commentary or have an idea for condensing and fact-checking the older version, let's discuss changes here instead of having a revert war. I'm not very happy with the current state of the article myself, but it is impossible to make concrete claims about military mecha no matter how many times it has been kicked around on bulletin boards. Unless you or some other party can prove that to the contrary, the kind of definitive, negative commentary as was included in the old article must be avoided. Kensai Max 16:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The commentary was biased against military mecha, as I explained at length, and moreoever violated Original Research. Also, some of the other applications which it went into were little more than unbridled and impractical speculation, such as mecha as space combat machines.
My current rewrite is flawed and needs revision, but revision does not mean "go back to the old article". It means writing a neutral and -factual- section that sticks to what we know or can realistically extrapolate, which may very well mean leaving out the Gundams entirely and talking about mecha only in the near-term as exemplified by Mechanized Propulsion Systems and other IRL mecha-building types. 24.59.66.226 00:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The main article on practical mecha is now located at Practical mecha, with a small blurb and a redirect to that page located at this page. Malamockq 16:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Should a picture of a real-life functional mecha of some sort be included anywhere in the article, such as in the Mecha as Practical War Machines section? CeeWhy 10:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
After... 4 years I have done so! -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 05:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Many Americans grew up with Transformers, Voltron, and Robotech but no other access to mecha or anime. These three shows were my first introduction to anime and the the concept of mecha. Can Transformers not also be considered mecha, despite possessing artificial intelligence? I think of Transformers as being inextricably linked to mecha, but I am not as knowledgeable of mecha as many people are. I would like to hear arguments for and against including Transformers as a type of mecha. Your thoughts? alca911
If I recall, powered armour made an appearance in the 1986 Transformers movie. It was worn by Spike Witwicky and his son Daniel. Also, although most Transformers are not mecha, because they think for themselves and are not piloted, the picture is slightly more confused for the Headmasters. Looking at the Headmasters article, initially, the Transformer bodies were completely controlled by Nebulons, or Humans, who had been "binary bonded" into a small transforming metal suit. This means that they would pretty much be mecha. This changed later to the body (transformer) and the head (Nebulon or Human) having 2 separate minds, where the latter was dominant in terms of control. -- 80.47.210.255 19:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe Optimus Prime answered our question when he said that they were Autonomous Robotic Organisms from the planet Cybertron, but you can call them Autobots for short. Nope, no mention of mecha there. Rexregum ( talk) 18:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Mecha can be robots, not all robots are mecha. Some transformers can be piloted (Well all the ones with human sized alt modes, the Headmasters are more like Jeeg, but they aren't mecha, as mecha usually have the human doing most of the work. -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 19:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I would love to find a site that shows the different models of mechs, tanks, suits, and robots from Battletech/ Robotech/ Voltron/ Evangelion/ Gundam/ Bubblegum Crisis/ Transformers, etc. all together on the same site. Is there a website out there somewhere that shows images of mecha/armor suits/transforming giant robots from multiple universes? alca911
Ironically, there is no section that has a list of mentions of Mecha in pop culture, although it covers the entire article (IOW, there's no organized section that is dedicated to all the uses of Mecha in pop culture).
I understand that would be a sizeable list though, then again, there has been larger I'm sure. Colonel Marksman 19:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
In the "Defenses" section the article discusses tanks flipping over due to a detonating landmine. The prospect of a 138,891 lbs (62,300 kg) vehicle flipping over due to a landmine seems far fetched to me. Anyone have actual information on the subject?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.174.189 ( talk • contribs)
There was a case in Iraq when an Abrams was flipped by a massive IED and two of the crew died when the tank rolled over. But normal AT mines are not designed to flip tanks, the military usually tries to kill things in the most efficent way as possible. And flipping tanks, while cool in a movie, is probably not the best use of your explosives. But yeah, the excessive and massive use of explosives in IEDs always make me wonder if the insurgents put any serious thought into the best way to crack their targets, or simply have too much spare explosives lying around. Rexregum ( talk) 18:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Below is a text I removed from the article.
But perhaps the most effective use, and the reason mechas attract so many fans, is the overal fear it inspires. In the time of psychological warfare, a mecha might not even have to be effecient or destructive in use; as long as it can look the part.
Need I comment? -- Chodorkovskiy (talk) 15:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to add more on the practicality of mecha, but here it is:
Mecha would posess several advantages over tanks in close urban combat with infantry, something which is becomeing more and more common. Firstly, their greater hight would mean that a second, not first, floor window would be needed to fire down onto their vulnerable top armour. And, in a similarly, they would be able to fire into first floor, surprising infantry attempting to attack the top of tanks. The ability to duck behind or fire over small buildings or walls could be extremely useful in order to combat infantry fighting from behind cover. Mecha would be able to step over smaller vehicles without distroying them, giving less collateral damage and the ability to be used with infantry or light armour. Mecha would also not be as vulnerable to hand attacks from infantry as many vehicles, since the greater height would take important systems out of reach of prying hands.
It is commonly considered that mecha would be vulnerable to attacks on the legs, and indeed a fall would probably put a mecha out of action, like it would a large animal. However, the legs would present a small target that would be difficult to lead in the normal way. Tripping might not be as much of a problem as has been thought, as the opperator would probably see any obstacles that could trip the mecha. -- SHCGRA Max 16:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
My take? Power Armour is more practical, and maybe something on the scale of the battlesuit in District 9, but I don't think military planners will see much utility in tallish heavy mecha any time soon 218.186.13.235 ( talk) 18:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Quite frankly, I'm uncomfortable with the cartoon character greeting people in the introduction. It doesn't do the article justice. Can it be replaced with the land walker one? Where to move the cartoon? Well, if you ask me, then a mech carrying a shield belongs in the trash, but I suppose we could cram it into The robot/mecha genre of anime. Thoughts? -- Chodorkovskiy (talk) 06:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Lewis: I have neither the time nor the will, but someone should add a link to the Space marines, and Tau Battlesuits of games workshop's warhammer 40k series which has a large compliment of mech and power armour units. I love wiki and think this is a great aid, however I do agree it needs cleaning up.
The entire Mecha-in-real-combat section seems to me to be original research. Not a citation, not a source cited in the links, nothing but a lot of baseless conjecture based on wildly biased arguments presented on message boards. As such, it violates Wiki policy and should be removed unless someone can prove that it has some kind of grounding in reality.
This would also improve the article, which is something like a rat (useful information on mecha and their portrayal in fiction) with a tumor twice its size growing off of it (the stupendously large mecha-in-warfare section). Kensai Max 15:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Aight. Unless someone cares to come out and give me a damn good reason why it should remain, I'm taking it down in a couple days. And it will not come up again. Kensai Max 15:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a minor problem with the Games section classifying some examples as mecha-like. Primarily, the Mammoth Mark II from The Command & Conquer series. If this vehicle is to be considered mecha-like, then it would only be proper to label the 'walker' vehicles from Star Wars as mecha-like. However, there is nothing I would consider as 'mecha-like' about these vehicles aside fromt he fact that they are 'walker'-type vehicles. Perhaps a clearer definition of 'mecha' need be made. Personally, when I think of mecha, I think of an agile mechanical vehicle, usually with a small crew (a crew of one in most cases, such as with BattleMechs/Gundams; but sometimes in upwards of four or more, such as with the Moriboto II from Jinki:Extend, the Nirvash from Eureka 7 (both with a crew of 2), or [thinking of another example, but names escape me. may add later]). I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think of mecha as fast and agile, while I think of 'walkers' as slow and lumbering. Something to consider. Everchanging02 10:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Something of which I was hoping to find was some information of whether or not the term, "Mech" is a trademark by some entity. From what research I have done, I cannot find any entity that owns that term, yet I see numerous news articles and statements that mention that "Mech" cannot be used since it is copyrighted. But there is no reference of where the person got this information, or knows for certain. And additionally is in error since a single word cannot be copyrighted (but trade-mark is possible).
No listing in the US Trademark Database (electronic) reveals an owner, other than the US Navy for aircraft parts. And 'Mech or BattleMech or Battle'Mech is not the same as Mech.
I am under the impression that "Mech" is not owned or a trademark of any entity, but reading of people's statements saying that it is and that practically all mech type games do not call their warmachines, mechs; makes me second guess myself.
Can this topic be resolved and posted on the page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hamilton-WDS ( talk • contribs) 15:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
First I remember the whole Mecha as Practical War Machines section was once removed for being overly original research. And I fail to see how its current return fix that issue, shall it be remove once again?
Second External links section, is there any reason to keep Real Life Comics compares western and eastern mecha link there? I just check it and...disappoint. It dosn't offer any thing to this topic (GEARS and MAHQ offer info on various mecha anime series and Brickshelf Lego show mecha-inspired hobby). For instance, the artist use EVA to depict Eastern mecha. Despite being very popular, EVA isn't traditional/average/generic mecha at all. And the comic only focus on the issue for few pages. The link should be worth keeping around if the comic use a mecha that define genre ( Mazinger Z, Getter Robo or Gundam) or at least more tradition one. And actually compare them (even in humorous way ex. mocking various cliche) instead of a short joke. L-Zwei 04:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I need to watch this article more closely. That practical war machine section is simply unacceptable and I can't believe someone tried putting it back up. 24.59.64.119 18:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The section should definatly be removed anytime it is readded until such time as proper sources are found for it. There's bound to be some real research somewhere, but without the citations, it's pointless having the section; it's only a magnet for "and this one time, on tribewars I was facing this guy who..." comments.-- Scorpion451 rant 01:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that mecha, as of now, don't exist in a working format. While I'd love for the article to be about real things, any discussion of mecha IRL is going to be original research until someone -builds- a half-decent ambulatory machine IRL. The section at hand is as presumptuous as talking about strategic bombing in 1890. Kensai Max 01:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
19:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)does at-st and other at count as mech. i think so Xelas211
no mention of the ed209 from robocop? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clone627 ( talk • contribs) 20:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
These two have a large amount of redundant information, I think Japanese Mecha could be removed entirely without any loss. Someone fix it. Not me though 206.180.38.20 ( talk) 16:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Would the HERCs in Empire Earth II be notably enough to inclide in the "Games" section? 72.137.187.109 ( talk) 23:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've never ever heard of it called that and I'm a big fan of the genre, why is that there? 69.207.32.133 ( talk) 04:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I am removing Robossaurus reference for several reasons:
Since the {{ essay-like}} tag I added has been contested, I thought it might help to detail some of the issues with this article. It's actually fairly well-written prose-wise, and clearly a lot of work and care has gone into it, but unfortunately at the moment it doesn't meet some of our core content policies and guidelines.
Although the article is improved over previous incarnations, I think there's still some way to go. The most important step is to find some reliable sources that actually deal with "Mecha" as a subject. This would get away from the impression that the article is a personal essay, and guide its further development. I hope this helps to explain the tag. All the best, EyeSerene talk 07:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Are Powered exoskeletons in fiction the same thing as Mecha? I propose merging the articles, as the two seem to be synonymous. I don't know what the primary term is. Fences& Windows 01:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
To the fun guy who keeps changing names, I'm going to get this page locked if you keep changing mecha to mech or whatever spelling. -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 20:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
173.21.34.90 ( talk) 04:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I believe that this item is most commonly referred to as a "mech," not mecha. I have no citations for this request to change the page name. Also, I think a picture of a generic mech should be presented at the top of the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.233.170.27 ( talk • contribs) 10:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I just checked this page and the one about Walkers. From what I see both pages are about the same thing (walking vehicles). The only difference I can find is the name of the page. I propose we merge the info from that page into the mecha article.-- 76.186.195.184 ( talk) 23:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Anyone going to object before I do this?-- 70.242.113.168 ( talk) 20:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
I have combined them, they are now one SUPER ARTICLE -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 05:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Under the current term, Mecha are are walking vehicles controlled by a pilot... I don't believe this definition (or even description) is accurate of mecha, and indeed is misleading. By needing a pilot, it makes several (identical) robots be listed as not-mecha. For example, mobile dolls of Gundam wing, which are expressly unpiloted (and lack a cockpit). Yet they can be housed in the frame of mobile suites such as Toros, which can be piloted. Likewise, Several of the robots from GaoGaiGar possess AI, and can be interchangeably piloted. Furthering this, machines like tanks can combine to form robots, and this transformation can be piloted and unpiloted. More examples, such as the dummy plug from evangelion and the Ultimate X zoids from Zoids new century are able to bend the current term of mecha, by swapping between AI and pilot controls. Not only that, but the claim that mecha must be piloted is also uncited. Sylvanelite ( talk) 01:25, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
usually controlled by a pilot
someone fixed it for you bro, but it is usually implied that mechs are piloted, but that way we can have mobile dolls -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 01:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I think Mecha anime covers the same topics that this article-- Alexcalamaro ( talk) 15:24, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I read it and can't help to cursing. It look like contributors of mecha anime article simply copy info here and paste there. The Mecha anime#Games section is especially poorly written and out of place. Why would american's title like Mech Warrior is mention there is beyond my comprehend and Metal Gear isn't even close to Anime-inspire title. L-Zwei ( talk) 02:52, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the games section from the Mecha anime article. It was a cut and paste from an old version of this article. If anyone thinks it can be useful here's the link: [5].– Cattus talk 11:17, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I think we should modify this article some, currently Mechas are being referred to as Fiction, and Sci-Fi. Mechas are reality, but are not commonly used in the general public. Mechas just like what is seen in "Ghost in the Shell" are being produced and developed. In my professional opinion, we should cancel the merger with Mecha Anime, and rewrite certain parts to refer to Non-fiction respectively. Mechas like the Tachikomas from Ghost in the shell are no longer Sci-Fi/fiction/anime, they are real.
166.165.79.5 ( talk) 05:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Wyattwic
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 18:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Mecha → Mecha (genre) — Short reason: consistency, Mech (disambiguation) & Yuri (genre). 96.240.34.47 ( talk) 17:50, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The section should be kept, anyone wanting to know about mecha should also know of the debate mecha fans have for their practical application, as a replacement for, or companion to, tanks, infantry, and other modern combat systems. Vechs 02:39, 28 June 2006
Unfortunately, as I pointed out above, its factuality is subject to debate. I could write a whole 'nother post on the current problems with the section. Its been edited since I pointed out its problems, but it keeps the same conclusions. I don't know how much more conclusively I can shoot those full of holes.
If there's going to be a debate about this, let's do it here and not on the article. As things stand I have half a mind to edit the article to a more balanced POV. Kensai Max 19:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Specifically...
Mobility section: Center of gravity is essentially unimportant as long as it's somewhere in the mid-chest to hips section, as in humans, even when they're carrying a heavy backpack. I remind you that hikers and mountaineers rarely have any problem negotiating steep slopes. Any deployable mecha wouldn't be prone to tripping and could compensate for any sane center of gravity. Weight distribution is an easy engineering problem, not a valid "counter-argument".
Soldiers often have to fight in very broken terrain in the real world. Afghanistan, for instance. The whole world ain't an Iraqi desert. A mecha could easily carry tank-level weaponry into any situation infantry could be sent into except the most torturous close urban combat. Added to the high -real- top speed and flat-ground agility of humanistic mecha and you have an incredibly effective package.
Agility: The criticisms leveled here aren't valid. Any effective mecha design would be agile and easily controllable to the full range of its agility - it's simply a reality that would have to be fulfilled before the system could be considered effective. A mecha could be built out of heavy materials and simply use a powerful tank engine (or two) to provide sufficient mobility, bringing along heavy armor protection.
At a two-kilometer range (quite usual in most tank-fighting doctrine), a mecha pilot would have a full second to make a basic evasive maneuver to avoid an incoming 120mm antitank sabot round, one of the fastest projectiles in use. A second is a long time, and any minor dodge would force a miss. Simple unpredictable running patterns would make scoring a hit incredibly difficult until the mecha had gotten within about a kilometer - disastrously close range. A laser-warning receiver (detecting the gun's rangefinder) will give a sufficient heads-up for effective evasive action.
Area-effect blasts would be ineffective against an armored mecha as they would be against a tank - moreso given that a mecha can't be flipped.
Height: The supposed higher target profile of a mecha has been made too big a deal of. In most situations it wouldn't be a problem, given a mecha's other advantages. In a hull-down defensive situation a mecha can adopt a couching or lying posture. The points I raised earlier still haven't been adressed. As well, a mecha's vertical posture gives it complete immunity against top-attack weapons - like most new antitank missiles! Given the likelihood of a mecha having an armored helmet and shoulders, they'd be hitting thick armor if they hit at all.
Method of motion: Invalid complaints. Humans can sprint quite well in full armor - it's simply a question of muscle and stamina. Mecha, being machines, will have both in spades. We're not talking about making a sprinter here, simply a machine that can run in a workmanlike fashion. A quick leg cycle time isn't an issue if a mecha has near-humanlike agility - scaling a fairly slow human jog up to a 10-meter scale gives you 35 miles per hour! With that in mind, leg armor isn't a problem.
The mechanical complexity involved in mecha isn't an issue. People will deal like they always have, and the advantages with the system are so massive that they'll be happy to. It's also a largely assumed problem given that no working mecha yet exists, and nobody has yet attempted to engineer the systems involved into a repair-friendly state.
Toppling? Gimme a break. Ever heard of a roll cage? Putting out an arm to stop a fall? Staps and a crash helmet? If it's strong enough to run it can take a fall.
Weapon systems: Most heavy guns have less recoil than is commonly believed. People aren't knocked over firing elephant guns - they barely move! They may drop the gun or at worst dislocate their shoulder from poor technique, but weapons with relatively heavy recoil aren't a problem for mecha. For a mecha in the low end of the tank range of weight (as an armored 10m mecha would be - around 30 or so tons), mounting a heavy tank gun is well within the range of possibility, as are rotary antiarmor cannons like the GAU-8 or very heavy autocannons in the 60 or 70mm range - more than enough to wreck a tank at the ranges mecha could close to. This isn't even getting into missiles or 200mm grenade launchers. Kensai Max 05:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
You refute yourself on weapons recoil. A constant backwards acceleration of 1.6 m/s^2 is puny compared to just the force required to keep the mecha standing upright, let alone running. Significantly larger guns would have a large initial recoil spike, but it could be easily damped and spread out over time to around the same figure. In short, it's a non-issue with a bit of intelligent engineering, and the point should be considered invalid.
Like I have pointed out earlier, large speeds that are often touted for MBTs are largely hypothetical sprint speeds. An M1 may be able to get up to 45, but they never do outside of testing, and for good reason - the risk of throwing a track at those speeds is dire and I imagine gun accuracy is abysmal with any kind of bumpiness in the terrain due to suspension issues at those speeds. All the footage I've ever seen of tanks in combat has them moving relatively slowly and with minimal maneuvering, not dashing about as they are often claimed to be able to do. This is in direct contrast to mecha, which could easily maintain a -sustained- attack speed at the level of a tank's theoretical top speed and sprint well above it (70 is a scaled 14 mph sprint - that's a ~4:00 mile pace, which some humans can keep up for that long), across broken, swampy or obstructed terrain that would slow tanks to a crawl. The structural strength required to run precludes falling being a problem. "Soft" systems can be easily hardened against a few bumps.
Attacking mecha on technological grounds of shock resistance required is also a nonstarter. Mecha development would entail solving those problems to create a reliable machine - if they are truly issues in the first place. Again, engineering problem, not fundamental flaw in concept.
I imagine weapons and ammo would be gravy on top of the hypothetical 30 ton machine, not part of the figure, as is customary in highly modular systems like aircraft. Given that a mecha would be carrying a large amount more ammunition for its Avenger than an A-10 and would probably use a lower rate of fire, a four-ton weapons system (mostly ammo) would be able to provide around two minutes of sustained antiarmor fire. More than adequate for an assault mission, I'd say. An additional four tons could be dedicated to other weapons systems - missiles, grenade launchers, smaller guns, etc, giving the machine a war-load of ~38 tons. This same weight could be maintained with an L44 cannon, autoloader, ammo, etc. by simply cutting out most of the auxiliaries or sacrificing a certain amount of mobility - close-range maneuverability isn't as much of a problem with a full-up tank gun on the platform.
I'm afraid you have a point on armor weight, but it's not particularly important. Next-generation tank guns are so large and powerful that they will be impossible to defeat with even the weight of armor a heavy tracked vehicle can carry, so settling for a lesser, more distributed amount of armor coverage (still more than adequate to stop anything besides tank sabot rounts) coupled to a mecha's incredibly-strong and resilient internal structure, small crew area and extreme maneuverability will provide for both increased survivability on the open battlefield and against infantry in congested environments. Best of all worlds there, and the machine will have the horsepower (two turbines, one to be brought online for combat for reasons of fuel economy) for heavy applique armor if necessary. The disadvantage of light armor is more than compensated for by the advantage of being almost impossible to hit.
An armored head and shoulders are necessary in any sane scheme of armor protection to protect the sensors and critical shoulder joint area. A mecha will present a far smaller area to a top attack than a tank, thus existing top-attack weapons will likely miss altogether - and if they don't they'll hit heavy armor at a large slope. Fuel storage isn't a problem - armored tanks on the back/back hip area or storage in any open space in the torso should provide sufficient volume. Again, engineering, not fatal problem.
You forget that it's necessary to lead a target, and predict where it is, especially so when you're firing a single-shot weapon like a tank gun and have to wait for a reload. A mecha, starting its terminal attack sprint against a tank at one kilometer, will be moving at something like 35 meters per second, and will only have a useful lateral target profile of three or four meters. At a 30-degree angle, it'll be necessary to lead it by two or three times its own width, and given its agility it can swerve around and sidestep at will. Even if the pilot doesn't have time to react properly, simple evasive footwork will make it practically untargetable.
This doesn't even take into account the fact that an Avenger isn't even a particularly ideal weapon for this mission. An extremely heavy machine-gun of 75mm or so caliber will have a much longer useful range, and will be able to tear apart any tank under sustained fire.
Given current trends in tank design towards the infamous Ogre of SJ Games fame (larger and larger guns, heavier and heavier armor - regardless of what the army claims it's trying to do, that's the way the wind is blowing), fast and maneuverable mecha will provide a highly viable alternative to simply going bigger with tracks. In short, even if flat-ground kill ratios are 1:1 or even worse for mecha, their other advantages will conspire to make tanks obsolete. 24.59.66.226 02:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The entire military mecha argument is built upon an unsupportable pyramid of assumptions and thus I have come to the conclusion that the section should be removed altogether.
These are...
1. Can a mecha be built?
2. Can mecha be made reliable?
3. Can mecha be made usable in very rugged terrain?
4. Can mecha drive systems be pushed to high speeds and erratic maneuvering over rugged terrain, or at all?
5. Can mecha in any form be milspec'd?
6. Can military-grade mecha be grown and strengthened to the point that they can dominate any other armored vehiclee in combat?
This article is about #6. We have a right to be talking about #2. As such it's like the Wright brothers talking about SEAD while they're trying to figure out how to get the Flyer in the air. It's incredibly unencyclopedic and does not deserve to be on Wiki. Any further edits of the section should be to curtail it severely.
As for your points...
Actually, it is an engineering problem, and I doubt that it's that hard of one. Plenty of systems do, in fact, sustain multiton shocks every second and are none the worse for wear from it... like the suspension on main battle tanks, for instance. Given the actual mechanics of ambulatory motion and how everything works together to minimize loads and provide a smooth ride, it's really more of a question of knee-joint strength than anything else. Given that mecha can be overbuilt in a way that evolution doesn't allow for, not to mention the strength of the materials involved in their construction... I quite fail to see any kind of problem.
Mecha tripping will not destroy themselves - repeating an assertion pedantically does not make it correct. It would be an easy matter to build enough structural reinforcements (not to mention strong arms to stop a fall) into the design to make falling a minor concern. Considering that this is a combat machine, the strength of the frame will be of utmost importance, and modern materials and engineering techniques can easily make this moot. Bringing up large animals that may endanger themselves running (giraffes from breaking a leg, by the way, not falling, and tyrannosaurs are extremely debatable) is simply nonsensical in the context of a mecha with a high-strength steel skeleton and numerous mechanical shock absorbers and cushioning throughout. Tripping will not be a routine problem with any working mecha system - screw Murphy, this is a fact of being deployable.
Actually, modern tanks do have accuracy problems when moving at speed. You shouldn't take claimed abilities based on a pancake desert or plain and apply them to everything - it's quite simply a matter of how well the suspension and gun stabilization can hold up to a bumpy ride. Over a certain level, the gun isn't going to be pointing at the target any more, and you miss. It's just not as much of an issue as it used to be. Modern tankers very much prefer to be stopped or moving slowly when firing. Meanwhile, a walking movement is a bumpier ride, but it's not affected by the actual ground quality as much, so it's really down to an egg on a spoon analogy.
Guided missiles aren't an issue. There are numerous active and passive defense systems available to deal with them, and mecha agility and speed will be extremely useful in dodging them outright - not many missiles designed to hit a lumbering tank can keep up with a machine that can make a 90-degree turn on the drop of a hat. Given that any decent missile system bypasses a tank's strong armor altogether, whereas top-attack missiles would hit a mecha's strong helmet and shoulders, mecha would have a significant advantage over tanks in that regard.
According to some very rough calculations I ran, enough armor to deal with anything but tank guns wouldn't be an issue - simply armoring overall to the level of a tank's sides, or slightly more, would deal with everything else. The surface area involved in a mecha is actually less than that of a tank when you take overall armoring requirements into account. It's not like the baseline machine I've been talking about wouldn't have enough horsepower to carry as much armor as was necessary, so armor complaints are moot except with regard to deployability issues surrounding heavy armored vehicles. With that in mind, mecha could easily grow to 70-ton armored gorillas and retain many of the benefits of ambulatory motion with tank-like armoring, but it's not desirable from a deployability standpoint. Hence, keeping the weight down and relying on agility as much as possible is ideal.
Also, another side benefit of mecha is that they could lay down their own AA fire quite nicely, or easily shoot into the top floors of buildings or whatever sewer grate the insurgents are popping out of with RPGs in urban combat. Grozny begone!
Perhaps the biggest problem with the entire mecha concept I'm talking about circles around to the first part of this post, which is as you yourself pointed out, war-mecha are a development that's a long way off. Hence, their usefulness will be judged in the standards of 2040, not that of 2006, and I'd bet that those will be significantly different. Thus the point is moot, though it does serve to illustrate how pointless a section on mecha in warfare in an encyclopedia is when every single piece of it can be disputed to the opposite end of the scale, and neither of us are "right". Until the Army puts one through its paces it's going to be someone's jackass opinion.
It seems like a bit of this article needs a heavy edit job. Agreed? Kensai Max 06:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
As you pointed out yourself, a lot of it is just hand-waving. But of course there's no denying that the development of mecha has a lot of serious engineering challanges to be overcome, and there is an issue of how practical the entire thing is.
Never say never they say, there was a time nobody saw a use for the airplane, but at the same time it's good to keep your head screwed on the right way.
I am surprised nobody mentioned ground pressure though, 40 tons of machine weight concentrated on a rather small foot area per step makes we wonder how much mobility bipedia mecha actually have. Barring ridiculus looking feet designs mecha are going to have extremely high ground pressures especially when they are running. Prehaps the MBT will probably fare better against general mud then the bipedia mecha. Quad or more legged mecha are probably more feasible, thou less glamorous for us Gundam wannabes out there.
Lets look into powered armour first, now that's something that might bear fruit some time in the somewhat near future.
Rexregum ( talk) 18:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Any comments? I removed the old section and all its quality-check and factual accuracy tags and put up my own rewrite. Sorry for taking so long. Kensai Max 05:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The original article was unacceptably bad, for extensive reasons outlined above. I'm reverting. Any revision to the old article (which was nothing less than unbridled speculation) is simply ridiculous, unless you can give me some DAMN good reasons.
I thought we'd had this argument already. Among other things, it was blatantly unencyclopedic. Kensai Max 15:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that the previous section is non-factual, unencyclopedic, and longer than the rest of the article combined. Read the above, long commentary on that issue. I'm not going to allow it in this article.
If you want a longer commentary or have an idea for condensing and fact-checking the older version, let's discuss changes here instead of having a revert war. I'm not very happy with the current state of the article myself, but it is impossible to make concrete claims about military mecha no matter how many times it has been kicked around on bulletin boards. Unless you or some other party can prove that to the contrary, the kind of definitive, negative commentary as was included in the old article must be avoided. Kensai Max 16:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The commentary was biased against military mecha, as I explained at length, and moreoever violated Original Research. Also, some of the other applications which it went into were little more than unbridled and impractical speculation, such as mecha as space combat machines.
My current rewrite is flawed and needs revision, but revision does not mean "go back to the old article". It means writing a neutral and -factual- section that sticks to what we know or can realistically extrapolate, which may very well mean leaving out the Gundams entirely and talking about mecha only in the near-term as exemplified by Mechanized Propulsion Systems and other IRL mecha-building types. 24.59.66.226 00:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The main article on practical mecha is now located at Practical mecha, with a small blurb and a redirect to that page located at this page. Malamockq 16:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Should a picture of a real-life functional mecha of some sort be included anywhere in the article, such as in the Mecha as Practical War Machines section? CeeWhy 10:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
After... 4 years I have done so! -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 05:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Many Americans grew up with Transformers, Voltron, and Robotech but no other access to mecha or anime. These three shows were my first introduction to anime and the the concept of mecha. Can Transformers not also be considered mecha, despite possessing artificial intelligence? I think of Transformers as being inextricably linked to mecha, but I am not as knowledgeable of mecha as many people are. I would like to hear arguments for and against including Transformers as a type of mecha. Your thoughts? alca911
If I recall, powered armour made an appearance in the 1986 Transformers movie. It was worn by Spike Witwicky and his son Daniel. Also, although most Transformers are not mecha, because they think for themselves and are not piloted, the picture is slightly more confused for the Headmasters. Looking at the Headmasters article, initially, the Transformer bodies were completely controlled by Nebulons, or Humans, who had been "binary bonded" into a small transforming metal suit. This means that they would pretty much be mecha. This changed later to the body (transformer) and the head (Nebulon or Human) having 2 separate minds, where the latter was dominant in terms of control. -- 80.47.210.255 19:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe Optimus Prime answered our question when he said that they were Autonomous Robotic Organisms from the planet Cybertron, but you can call them Autobots for short. Nope, no mention of mecha there. Rexregum ( talk) 18:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Mecha can be robots, not all robots are mecha. Some transformers can be piloted (Well all the ones with human sized alt modes, the Headmasters are more like Jeeg, but they aren't mecha, as mecha usually have the human doing most of the work. -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 19:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
I would love to find a site that shows the different models of mechs, tanks, suits, and robots from Battletech/ Robotech/ Voltron/ Evangelion/ Gundam/ Bubblegum Crisis/ Transformers, etc. all together on the same site. Is there a website out there somewhere that shows images of mecha/armor suits/transforming giant robots from multiple universes? alca911
Ironically, there is no section that has a list of mentions of Mecha in pop culture, although it covers the entire article (IOW, there's no organized section that is dedicated to all the uses of Mecha in pop culture).
I understand that would be a sizeable list though, then again, there has been larger I'm sure. Colonel Marksman 19:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
In the "Defenses" section the article discusses tanks flipping over due to a detonating landmine. The prospect of a 138,891 lbs (62,300 kg) vehicle flipping over due to a landmine seems far fetched to me. Anyone have actual information on the subject?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.174.189 ( talk • contribs)
There was a case in Iraq when an Abrams was flipped by a massive IED and two of the crew died when the tank rolled over. But normal AT mines are not designed to flip tanks, the military usually tries to kill things in the most efficent way as possible. And flipping tanks, while cool in a movie, is probably not the best use of your explosives. But yeah, the excessive and massive use of explosives in IEDs always make me wonder if the insurgents put any serious thought into the best way to crack their targets, or simply have too much spare explosives lying around. Rexregum ( talk) 18:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Below is a text I removed from the article.
But perhaps the most effective use, and the reason mechas attract so many fans, is the overal fear it inspires. In the time of psychological warfare, a mecha might not even have to be effecient or destructive in use; as long as it can look the part.
Need I comment? -- Chodorkovskiy (talk) 15:24, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to add more on the practicality of mecha, but here it is:
Mecha would posess several advantages over tanks in close urban combat with infantry, something which is becomeing more and more common. Firstly, their greater hight would mean that a second, not first, floor window would be needed to fire down onto their vulnerable top armour. And, in a similarly, they would be able to fire into first floor, surprising infantry attempting to attack the top of tanks. The ability to duck behind or fire over small buildings or walls could be extremely useful in order to combat infantry fighting from behind cover. Mecha would be able to step over smaller vehicles without distroying them, giving less collateral damage and the ability to be used with infantry or light armour. Mecha would also not be as vulnerable to hand attacks from infantry as many vehicles, since the greater height would take important systems out of reach of prying hands.
It is commonly considered that mecha would be vulnerable to attacks on the legs, and indeed a fall would probably put a mecha out of action, like it would a large animal. However, the legs would present a small target that would be difficult to lead in the normal way. Tripping might not be as much of a problem as has been thought, as the opperator would probably see any obstacles that could trip the mecha. -- SHCGRA Max 16:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
My take? Power Armour is more practical, and maybe something on the scale of the battlesuit in District 9, but I don't think military planners will see much utility in tallish heavy mecha any time soon 218.186.13.235 ( talk) 18:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Quite frankly, I'm uncomfortable with the cartoon character greeting people in the introduction. It doesn't do the article justice. Can it be replaced with the land walker one? Where to move the cartoon? Well, if you ask me, then a mech carrying a shield belongs in the trash, but I suppose we could cram it into The robot/mecha genre of anime. Thoughts? -- Chodorkovskiy (talk) 06:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Lewis: I have neither the time nor the will, but someone should add a link to the Space marines, and Tau Battlesuits of games workshop's warhammer 40k series which has a large compliment of mech and power armour units. I love wiki and think this is a great aid, however I do agree it needs cleaning up.
The entire Mecha-in-real-combat section seems to me to be original research. Not a citation, not a source cited in the links, nothing but a lot of baseless conjecture based on wildly biased arguments presented on message boards. As such, it violates Wiki policy and should be removed unless someone can prove that it has some kind of grounding in reality.
This would also improve the article, which is something like a rat (useful information on mecha and their portrayal in fiction) with a tumor twice its size growing off of it (the stupendously large mecha-in-warfare section). Kensai Max 15:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Aight. Unless someone cares to come out and give me a damn good reason why it should remain, I'm taking it down in a couple days. And it will not come up again. Kensai Max 15:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a minor problem with the Games section classifying some examples as mecha-like. Primarily, the Mammoth Mark II from The Command & Conquer series. If this vehicle is to be considered mecha-like, then it would only be proper to label the 'walker' vehicles from Star Wars as mecha-like. However, there is nothing I would consider as 'mecha-like' about these vehicles aside fromt he fact that they are 'walker'-type vehicles. Perhaps a clearer definition of 'mecha' need be made. Personally, when I think of mecha, I think of an agile mechanical vehicle, usually with a small crew (a crew of one in most cases, such as with BattleMechs/Gundams; but sometimes in upwards of four or more, such as with the Moriboto II from Jinki:Extend, the Nirvash from Eureka 7 (both with a crew of 2), or [thinking of another example, but names escape me. may add later]). I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think of mecha as fast and agile, while I think of 'walkers' as slow and lumbering. Something to consider. Everchanging02 10:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Something of which I was hoping to find was some information of whether or not the term, "Mech" is a trademark by some entity. From what research I have done, I cannot find any entity that owns that term, yet I see numerous news articles and statements that mention that "Mech" cannot be used since it is copyrighted. But there is no reference of where the person got this information, or knows for certain. And additionally is in error since a single word cannot be copyrighted (but trade-mark is possible).
No listing in the US Trademark Database (electronic) reveals an owner, other than the US Navy for aircraft parts. And 'Mech or BattleMech or Battle'Mech is not the same as Mech.
I am under the impression that "Mech" is not owned or a trademark of any entity, but reading of people's statements saying that it is and that practically all mech type games do not call their warmachines, mechs; makes me second guess myself.
Can this topic be resolved and posted on the page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hamilton-WDS ( talk • contribs) 15:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
First I remember the whole Mecha as Practical War Machines section was once removed for being overly original research. And I fail to see how its current return fix that issue, shall it be remove once again?
Second External links section, is there any reason to keep Real Life Comics compares western and eastern mecha link there? I just check it and...disappoint. It dosn't offer any thing to this topic (GEARS and MAHQ offer info on various mecha anime series and Brickshelf Lego show mecha-inspired hobby). For instance, the artist use EVA to depict Eastern mecha. Despite being very popular, EVA isn't traditional/average/generic mecha at all. And the comic only focus on the issue for few pages. The link should be worth keeping around if the comic use a mecha that define genre ( Mazinger Z, Getter Robo or Gundam) or at least more tradition one. And actually compare them (even in humorous way ex. mocking various cliche) instead of a short joke. L-Zwei 04:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
I need to watch this article more closely. That practical war machine section is simply unacceptable and I can't believe someone tried putting it back up. 24.59.64.119 18:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The section should definatly be removed anytime it is readded until such time as proper sources are found for it. There's bound to be some real research somewhere, but without the citations, it's pointless having the section; it's only a magnet for "and this one time, on tribewars I was facing this guy who..." comments.-- Scorpion451 rant 01:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that mecha, as of now, don't exist in a working format. While I'd love for the article to be about real things, any discussion of mecha IRL is going to be original research until someone -builds- a half-decent ambulatory machine IRL. The section at hand is as presumptuous as talking about strategic bombing in 1890. Kensai Max 01:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
19:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)does at-st and other at count as mech. i think so Xelas211
no mention of the ed209 from robocop? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clone627 ( talk • contribs) 20:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
These two have a large amount of redundant information, I think Japanese Mecha could be removed entirely without any loss. Someone fix it. Not me though 206.180.38.20 ( talk) 16:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Would the HERCs in Empire Earth II be notably enough to inclide in the "Games" section? 72.137.187.109 ( talk) 23:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I've never ever heard of it called that and I'm a big fan of the genre, why is that there? 69.207.32.133 ( talk) 04:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I am removing Robossaurus reference for several reasons:
Since the {{ essay-like}} tag I added has been contested, I thought it might help to detail some of the issues with this article. It's actually fairly well-written prose-wise, and clearly a lot of work and care has gone into it, but unfortunately at the moment it doesn't meet some of our core content policies and guidelines.
Although the article is improved over previous incarnations, I think there's still some way to go. The most important step is to find some reliable sources that actually deal with "Mecha" as a subject. This would get away from the impression that the article is a personal essay, and guide its further development. I hope this helps to explain the tag. All the best, EyeSerene talk 07:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Are Powered exoskeletons in fiction the same thing as Mecha? I propose merging the articles, as the two seem to be synonymous. I don't know what the primary term is. Fences& Windows 01:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
To the fun guy who keeps changing names, I'm going to get this page locked if you keep changing mecha to mech or whatever spelling. -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 20:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
173.21.34.90 ( talk) 04:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I believe that this item is most commonly referred to as a "mech," not mecha. I have no citations for this request to change the page name. Also, I think a picture of a generic mech should be presented at the top of the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.233.170.27 ( talk • contribs) 10:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I just checked this page and the one about Walkers. From what I see both pages are about the same thing (walking vehicles). The only difference I can find is the name of the page. I propose we merge the info from that page into the mecha article.-- 76.186.195.184 ( talk) 23:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Anyone going to object before I do this?-- 70.242.113.168 ( talk) 20:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
I have combined them, they are now one SUPER ARTICLE -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 05:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Under the current term, Mecha are are walking vehicles controlled by a pilot... I don't believe this definition (or even description) is accurate of mecha, and indeed is misleading. By needing a pilot, it makes several (identical) robots be listed as not-mecha. For example, mobile dolls of Gundam wing, which are expressly unpiloted (and lack a cockpit). Yet they can be housed in the frame of mobile suites such as Toros, which can be piloted. Likewise, Several of the robots from GaoGaiGar possess AI, and can be interchangeably piloted. Furthering this, machines like tanks can combine to form robots, and this transformation can be piloted and unpiloted. More examples, such as the dummy plug from evangelion and the Ultimate X zoids from Zoids new century are able to bend the current term of mecha, by swapping between AI and pilot controls. Not only that, but the claim that mecha must be piloted is also uncited. Sylvanelite ( talk) 01:25, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
usually controlled by a pilot
someone fixed it for you bro, but it is usually implied that mechs are piloted, but that way we can have mobile dolls -- Cleave and Smite, Delete and Tear! ( talk) 01:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I think Mecha anime covers the same topics that this article-- Alexcalamaro ( talk) 15:24, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
I read it and can't help to cursing. It look like contributors of mecha anime article simply copy info here and paste there. The Mecha anime#Games section is especially poorly written and out of place. Why would american's title like Mech Warrior is mention there is beyond my comprehend and Metal Gear isn't even close to Anime-inspire title. L-Zwei ( talk) 02:52, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the games section from the Mecha anime article. It was a cut and paste from an old version of this article. If anyone thinks it can be useful here's the link: [5].– Cattus talk 11:17, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I think we should modify this article some, currently Mechas are being referred to as Fiction, and Sci-Fi. Mechas are reality, but are not commonly used in the general public. Mechas just like what is seen in "Ghost in the Shell" are being produced and developed. In my professional opinion, we should cancel the merger with Mecha Anime, and rewrite certain parts to refer to Non-fiction respectively. Mechas like the Tachikomas from Ghost in the shell are no longer Sci-Fi/fiction/anime, they are real.
166.165.79.5 ( talk) 05:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Wyattwic
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 18:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Mecha → Mecha (genre) — Short reason: consistency, Mech (disambiguation) & Yuri (genre). 96.240.34.47 ( talk) 17:50, 2 July 2010 (UTC)