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The Classifier page redirects to "Measure word", but I'm not sure if this must be so. A measure word is a specific type of classifier, but are all classifiers used exclusively for counting? I know that that's the case with Japanese and Mandarin, but I'd like to see examples of classifiers that are not measure words, if there are any. -- Pablo D. Flores 11:40, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
2002.05.25: Cleaned up and moved discussion from Talk to count noun article. -- pgdudda
Well, I disagree with the description of the Chinese nouns as count nouns. Even though you can count something ( pieces of furniture ) doesn't mean that it is grammatically a count noun. Because the use of the measure word is mandatory, this is grammatically equivalent to saying that all the nouns are mass nouns. I'll bet linguists have strong opinions ( on both sides) of this one. I don't speak Mandarin, so I didn't change anything even though I was tempted.
Anyway, I reformatted so that the language comparison comes after the introduction and the examples. Contrasting languages may be the reason why we notice these grammatical points, but the contrast isn't necessary to define and explain, and I think ( in the English wikipedia anyway ) that beginning with examples in English is more straightforward. -- Olof
In some respects, grammatical gendering and measure words are similar, but different, and my understanding is that there are few, if any, languages that use both. English is rare in that it uses neither, but most European languages are gendered, and most Asian languages are counted. Does anyone know enough linguistic theory to discuss the implications of this somewhere? Bigpeteb 16:11, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sorry about all the edits on 2004-11-04 (17:51, 18:02, and 18:04). I realized I hadn't logged in after I saved the page, and the precess of attaching myself to the edit got kinda messy. -- Vishahu 22:07, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
i added the merger notice. although measure words are not the same as classifiers, most of the text in this article goes with "classifier". Benwing 04:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
In contrast to the above examples from English, Chinese measure words are obligatory with enumeration of all count nouns; "yī rén" in modern Chinese is grammatically incorrect.
Contrary to what is written, "yī rén" is an acceptable phrase in modern Chinese. eg. 他一人闯进了门. Though I admit this isn't really talking about "a person barged in the door" but "he barged in the door alone". Still, the claim that "yī rén" is grammatically incorrect is false. Maybe for measure words, but not in the whole language. Besides, in classical Chinese it is definitely acceptable, eg. 三人行必有我师.
-- Миборовский
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06:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Is quantifier synonymous to measure word? -- Abdull 14:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is the Russian in here, when it is basically the same as the English pattern? This article should be concerned with languages that are NOT like English, as English is not a true measure-word language. -- SameerKhan 03:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that this is 'almost never heard.' It's used often enough in restaurants or food stands when someone is ordering a bottle or cup of water - "I'd like a water" or "we'll have three waters" for example. (In fact I was going to write "when someone is ordering a water" as my first instinct but realized that might not be clear enough.) -- Dbutler1986 ( talk) 16:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested: the article Chinese classifier is currently up for FAC, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chinese classifier/archive2. Any comments would be welcome. Thanks, rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 16:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
This article is almost entirely about classifiers, not measure words. (For an in-depth but language-specific explanation of the difference, see Chinese classifier#Count-classifiers and mass-classifiers.) I am hoping to rewrite it when I have a chance, but for now just wanted to at least leave a message in case anyone is watching. rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 01:06, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Am I right in thinking that measure words can in fact be used with both mass and count nouns? If pails in "three pails of mud" is a measure word, is it not equally so in "three pails of shells"? W. P. Uzer ( talk) 16:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
On the contrary, in Japanese, both 学生五人 gakusei go-nin (student five-CL) and 五人の学生 go-nin-no gakusei (five-CL-GEN student) are valid noun phrases meaning ‘five students’, the only difference being the emphasis. The genitive particle の no in the latter phrase has literally the same function as the English of for uncountable nouns. I’d expect Korean to be the same, but I don’t know a thing about Chinese. Anybody? Ashpilkin ( talk) 00:54, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
This article has a total of two citations (they appear as four, but it's two, each of which is repeated). Both citations only concern Chinese measure words (which as discussed above might not even be measure words but rather
classifiers because linguists use different terminology from teachers), with no sources for even the definition of the term. There are a number of other specific claims of fact (such as materials for teaching Chinese as a second language generally refer to Chinese classifiers as "measure words"
) that are unverified, and I'm not even sure it would be possible to verify them.
NETronnes, who is doing this for a class (
talk)
03:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. |
The Classifier page redirects to "Measure word", but I'm not sure if this must be so. A measure word is a specific type of classifier, but are all classifiers used exclusively for counting? I know that that's the case with Japanese and Mandarin, but I'd like to see examples of classifiers that are not measure words, if there are any. -- Pablo D. Flores 11:40, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
2002.05.25: Cleaned up and moved discussion from Talk to count noun article. -- pgdudda
Well, I disagree with the description of the Chinese nouns as count nouns. Even though you can count something ( pieces of furniture ) doesn't mean that it is grammatically a count noun. Because the use of the measure word is mandatory, this is grammatically equivalent to saying that all the nouns are mass nouns. I'll bet linguists have strong opinions ( on both sides) of this one. I don't speak Mandarin, so I didn't change anything even though I was tempted.
Anyway, I reformatted so that the language comparison comes after the introduction and the examples. Contrasting languages may be the reason why we notice these grammatical points, but the contrast isn't necessary to define and explain, and I think ( in the English wikipedia anyway ) that beginning with examples in English is more straightforward. -- Olof
In some respects, grammatical gendering and measure words are similar, but different, and my understanding is that there are few, if any, languages that use both. English is rare in that it uses neither, but most European languages are gendered, and most Asian languages are counted. Does anyone know enough linguistic theory to discuss the implications of this somewhere? Bigpeteb 16:11, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sorry about all the edits on 2004-11-04 (17:51, 18:02, and 18:04). I realized I hadn't logged in after I saved the page, and the precess of attaching myself to the edit got kinda messy. -- Vishahu 22:07, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
i added the merger notice. although measure words are not the same as classifiers, most of the text in this article goes with "classifier". Benwing 04:03, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
In contrast to the above examples from English, Chinese measure words are obligatory with enumeration of all count nouns; "yī rén" in modern Chinese is grammatically incorrect.
Contrary to what is written, "yī rén" is an acceptable phrase in modern Chinese. eg. 他一人闯进了门. Though I admit this isn't really talking about "a person barged in the door" but "he barged in the door alone". Still, the claim that "yī rén" is grammatically incorrect is false. Maybe for measure words, but not in the whole language. Besides, in classical Chinese it is definitely acceptable, eg. 三人行必有我师.
-- Миборовский
U|
T|
C|
E
06:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Is quantifier synonymous to measure word? -- Abdull 14:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is the Russian in here, when it is basically the same as the English pattern? This article should be concerned with languages that are NOT like English, as English is not a true measure-word language. -- SameerKhan 03:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that this is 'almost never heard.' It's used often enough in restaurants or food stands when someone is ordering a bottle or cup of water - "I'd like a water" or "we'll have three waters" for example. (In fact I was going to write "when someone is ordering a water" as my first instinct but realized that might not be clear enough.) -- Dbutler1986 ( talk) 16:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested: the article Chinese classifier is currently up for FAC, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chinese classifier/archive2. Any comments would be welcome. Thanks, rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 16:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
This article is almost entirely about classifiers, not measure words. (For an in-depth but language-specific explanation of the difference, see Chinese classifier#Count-classifiers and mass-classifiers.) I am hoping to rewrite it when I have a chance, but for now just wanted to at least leave a message in case anyone is watching. rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 01:06, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Am I right in thinking that measure words can in fact be used with both mass and count nouns? If pails in "three pails of mud" is a measure word, is it not equally so in "three pails of shells"? W. P. Uzer ( talk) 16:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
On the contrary, in Japanese, both 学生五人 gakusei go-nin (student five-CL) and 五人の学生 go-nin-no gakusei (five-CL-GEN student) are valid noun phrases meaning ‘five students’, the only difference being the emphasis. The genitive particle の no in the latter phrase has literally the same function as the English of for uncountable nouns. I’d expect Korean to be the same, but I don’t know a thing about Chinese. Anybody? Ashpilkin ( talk) 00:54, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
This article has a total of two citations (they appear as four, but it's two, each of which is repeated). Both citations only concern Chinese measure words (which as discussed above might not even be measure words but rather
classifiers because linguists use different terminology from teachers), with no sources for even the definition of the term. There are a number of other specific claims of fact (such as materials for teaching Chinese as a second language generally refer to Chinese classifiers as "measure words"
) that are unverified, and I'm not even sure it would be possible to verify them.
NETronnes, who is doing this for a class (
talk)
03:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)