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This article was recently totally overhauled by a user (editing both anonymously and logged in) who has made POV edits at another article. It should probably be reviewed for accuracy and neutrality by other editors. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 02:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Deleted unreferenced section "The Zodiac in Jewish Theology", which belongs in Hebrew astronomy, if anywhere |
---|
The heavens are made up of spheres. There are nine spheres. The closest to us is that of the Moon. Above it, the second sphere contains the planet Mercury. Above this, the third sphere contains the planet Venus. The fourth sphere contains the Sun. The fifth contains the planet Mars. The sixth sphere contains the planet Jupiter. The seventh contains the planet Saturn. The eighth sphere contains all the stars we see in the sky. The ninth sphere revolves from east to west every day. It surrounds and encompasses everything. The planets and stars all "appear" to be in a single sphere even though one is higher than another. This is because the spheres themselves are pure and refined like glass or sapphire. This is why the stars in the eighth sphere may appear lower than the first sphere. Each of the eight main spheres containing the planets and stars is itself divided into many individual spheres, one above the other like the layers of an onion. Some of these spheres revolve from west to the east, others from east to west. There is no empty space between any of them. None of the spheres are light or heavy. They are neither red, black nor any other color. Although we see them as blue, this is only our perception because of the height of the atmosphere. Similarly they have neither taste nor smell, because those qualities are present only in lower forms of matter. All these nine spheres surrounding the world are spherical like a ball, and the Earth is suspended in the middle. From knowing the daily movements of the stars and planets, their positions north or south in the sky and their distance from or closeness to Earth, it is possible to know the total number of spheres and the way they revolve. This is the science of astronomy. Many books about these subjects were written by the writers of ancient Greece. Although, the earliest recorded history of humans mapping the stars, were found on clay tablets in the Euphrates River Valley 6,000 years ago. The ninth sphere of the ecliptic, which encompasses all the others, was divided by the Jewish Sages of the early generations into twelve sections. They gave each of these sections a name based on the shapes that appeared to be formed by the stars in the corresponding section of the eighth sphere just below it. These are the mazalot (lit. sources of influence): the Ram ( Aries), the Ox ( Taurus), the Twins ( Gemini), the Crab ( Cancer), the Lion ( Leo), the Virgin ( Virgo), the Scales ( Libra), the Scorpion ( Scorpio), the Bow ( Sagittarius), the Goat ( Capricorn), the Bucket ( Aquarius) and the Fish ( Pisces). The ninth sphere itself has no divisions and does not possess any of these shapes or stars. Rather, the larger stars in the constellations of the eighth sphere are seen in the shape of these forms or in a form resembling them. These twelve forms corresponded to these divisions only at the time of The Flood, which Jewish theology teaches is when they were given these names. However, at present they have already moved slightly, because all the stars in the eighth sphere move just like the sun and the moon; it is just that these stars move more slowly. |
Deleted unreferenced section "Abraham Ibn Ezra", which belongs in Abraham Ibn Ezra, if anywhere |
According to the Jewish commentator Abraham Ibn Ezra (1089-1164), all the stars and spheres possess a soul, knowledge and intellect. They are alive and stand in recognition of the One who spoke and brought the world into being, Hashem. Furthermore, he taught that according to their size and level, they all praise and glorify their Creator, not unlike angels. And just as they are aware of their Creator, they are also conscious of themselves and of the angelic beings above them. He writes that the level of consciousness of the stars and spheres is less than that of the angels, but greater than of humans. Especially influential is Abraham Ibn Ezra’s astrological treatise called Sefer HaOlam ( The Book of the World). Its main message is to warn users against wrongful applications of astrology. Of course, like most Jewish scholars until modern times, he was an ardent believer in astrology, but only when it is practised correctly. In particular, he warned that all the astronomical tables predicting the times of planetary conjunctions are erroneous, because they assume uniform motion of the planets. He also strongly supported the accumulation of errors, and for the need to account for experimental errors, and how unreasonable it is to extrapolate from ancient data. Hence, he only relied on astronomical observations made by contemporary 'sages of experiments'. |
Whether 'mazzaroth' refers to the constellations of the zodiac and whether these constellations have a Biblical meaning cannot be proved. However, it can be demonstrated that a significant minority view is that the stars do have a Biblical meaning. The number of books published on this topic indicate it is a significant minority view: E. W. Bullinger ("The Witness of the Stars"), Joseph Seiss ("The Gospel in the Stars"), D. James Kennedy ("The Real Meaning of the Zodiac"), Chuck Missler ("Signs in the Heavens"), Marilyn Hickey ("Signs in the Heaven"), Henry M. Morris ("Many Infallible Proofs") and William M. Branham ("The Future Home") present this view, along with books by Kenneth C. Fleming ("God's Voice in the Stars"), Tim Warner ("Mystery of the Mazzaroth"), William D. Banks ("The Heavens Declare"), Timothy J. Adams ("Pattern of the Heavens") and E. Raymond Capt ("The Glory of the Stars").
The article cannot claim that any of these interpretations are correct but it should include comments that give the reader an understanding that the subject has been discussed by Christian authors. Sources that dispute whether the constellations have a Biblical meaning could be included. Rev107 ( talk) 06:16, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Let's review:
1.
“ | According to Genesis, in the beginning God said that the sun, moon and stars are for "signs": And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, (or appointed times) and for days and years (Genesis 1:14, ESV)Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the
help page).
|
” |
We've gone off-topic right there. This isn't about the word "Mazzaroth" anymore, indeed, the only use of the word is in the name of a book referenced. Simply talking about the zodiac in a religious context is not enough to justify inclusion. The work cited might be suitable to reference, but this isn't, even before you get to WP:NOTABILITY issues
3.
“ | Joseph Seiss, a Lutheran pastor, authored a book called "The Gospel of the Stars" in which he explains how the stars demonstrate the truth of God's "one plan and purpose of redemption for fallen man." [1] | ” |
Again, no indication that he connects any of this with the term "Mazzaroth", so likely off-topic, even before we get to notability issues.
4.
“ | Ken Fleming, a teacher at the Iowa Emmaus Bible College, has proposed that God created the stars and named the constellations long before demonic forces corrupted the meanings of the stars and enslaved people with superstitious horoscope addiction. He presents the story of human redemption through Christ as pictured in the heavens. [2] | ” |
Again, no connection is made to the word Mazzaroth.
WP:COATRACK issues apply to all of these, even before we get to the notability issues - there isn't the slightest indication any of these people's opinions have caught on in the least, or that they're believed by anyone but a tiny minority of, say, Biblical scholars. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 12:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Pratt's primary views are hardly original - they are based on at least three previous published sources (Rolleston, Seiss & Bullinger) acknowledged in his notes. He is only one of the "increasing number of Christian ministers, authors, and apologists" recognized by Strohmer (above). However, as Pratt has only been published in the LDS magazine "Meridian" (2005) - as far as I know - other sources may be preferable for the article. Rev107 ( talk) 03:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I was asked to comment on the dispute, but I am a bit confused as to what is actually being argued. The article seems to be about a word, yet the dispute seems to be about whether certain viewpoints on astrology should be included. Multiple interpretations of the word would potentially be worth including, but it doesn't seem to me that that is what is being argued about. Please clarify. -- ThaddeusB ( talk) 15:30, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
References
The Douay–Rheims Bible is listed, but content related to it or its context is lacking.
could someone clarify that please? Alohakai ( talk) 05:31, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
This article was recently totally overhauled by a user (editing both anonymously and logged in) who has made POV edits at another article. It should probably be reviewed for accuracy and neutrality by other editors. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 02:44, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Deleted unreferenced section "The Zodiac in Jewish Theology", which belongs in Hebrew astronomy, if anywhere |
---|
The heavens are made up of spheres. There are nine spheres. The closest to us is that of the Moon. Above it, the second sphere contains the planet Mercury. Above this, the third sphere contains the planet Venus. The fourth sphere contains the Sun. The fifth contains the planet Mars. The sixth sphere contains the planet Jupiter. The seventh contains the planet Saturn. The eighth sphere contains all the stars we see in the sky. The ninth sphere revolves from east to west every day. It surrounds and encompasses everything. The planets and stars all "appear" to be in a single sphere even though one is higher than another. This is because the spheres themselves are pure and refined like glass or sapphire. This is why the stars in the eighth sphere may appear lower than the first sphere. Each of the eight main spheres containing the planets and stars is itself divided into many individual spheres, one above the other like the layers of an onion. Some of these spheres revolve from west to the east, others from east to west. There is no empty space between any of them. None of the spheres are light or heavy. They are neither red, black nor any other color. Although we see them as blue, this is only our perception because of the height of the atmosphere. Similarly they have neither taste nor smell, because those qualities are present only in lower forms of matter. All these nine spheres surrounding the world are spherical like a ball, and the Earth is suspended in the middle. From knowing the daily movements of the stars and planets, their positions north or south in the sky and their distance from or closeness to Earth, it is possible to know the total number of spheres and the way they revolve. This is the science of astronomy. Many books about these subjects were written by the writers of ancient Greece. Although, the earliest recorded history of humans mapping the stars, were found on clay tablets in the Euphrates River Valley 6,000 years ago. The ninth sphere of the ecliptic, which encompasses all the others, was divided by the Jewish Sages of the early generations into twelve sections. They gave each of these sections a name based on the shapes that appeared to be formed by the stars in the corresponding section of the eighth sphere just below it. These are the mazalot (lit. sources of influence): the Ram ( Aries), the Ox ( Taurus), the Twins ( Gemini), the Crab ( Cancer), the Lion ( Leo), the Virgin ( Virgo), the Scales ( Libra), the Scorpion ( Scorpio), the Bow ( Sagittarius), the Goat ( Capricorn), the Bucket ( Aquarius) and the Fish ( Pisces). The ninth sphere itself has no divisions and does not possess any of these shapes or stars. Rather, the larger stars in the constellations of the eighth sphere are seen in the shape of these forms or in a form resembling them. These twelve forms corresponded to these divisions only at the time of The Flood, which Jewish theology teaches is when they were given these names. However, at present they have already moved slightly, because all the stars in the eighth sphere move just like the sun and the moon; it is just that these stars move more slowly. |
Deleted unreferenced section "Abraham Ibn Ezra", which belongs in Abraham Ibn Ezra, if anywhere |
According to the Jewish commentator Abraham Ibn Ezra (1089-1164), all the stars and spheres possess a soul, knowledge and intellect. They are alive and stand in recognition of the One who spoke and brought the world into being, Hashem. Furthermore, he taught that according to their size and level, they all praise and glorify their Creator, not unlike angels. And just as they are aware of their Creator, they are also conscious of themselves and of the angelic beings above them. He writes that the level of consciousness of the stars and spheres is less than that of the angels, but greater than of humans. Especially influential is Abraham Ibn Ezra’s astrological treatise called Sefer HaOlam ( The Book of the World). Its main message is to warn users against wrongful applications of astrology. Of course, like most Jewish scholars until modern times, he was an ardent believer in astrology, but only when it is practised correctly. In particular, he warned that all the astronomical tables predicting the times of planetary conjunctions are erroneous, because they assume uniform motion of the planets. He also strongly supported the accumulation of errors, and for the need to account for experimental errors, and how unreasonable it is to extrapolate from ancient data. Hence, he only relied on astronomical observations made by contemporary 'sages of experiments'. |
Whether 'mazzaroth' refers to the constellations of the zodiac and whether these constellations have a Biblical meaning cannot be proved. However, it can be demonstrated that a significant minority view is that the stars do have a Biblical meaning. The number of books published on this topic indicate it is a significant minority view: E. W. Bullinger ("The Witness of the Stars"), Joseph Seiss ("The Gospel in the Stars"), D. James Kennedy ("The Real Meaning of the Zodiac"), Chuck Missler ("Signs in the Heavens"), Marilyn Hickey ("Signs in the Heaven"), Henry M. Morris ("Many Infallible Proofs") and William M. Branham ("The Future Home") present this view, along with books by Kenneth C. Fleming ("God's Voice in the Stars"), Tim Warner ("Mystery of the Mazzaroth"), William D. Banks ("The Heavens Declare"), Timothy J. Adams ("Pattern of the Heavens") and E. Raymond Capt ("The Glory of the Stars").
The article cannot claim that any of these interpretations are correct but it should include comments that give the reader an understanding that the subject has been discussed by Christian authors. Sources that dispute whether the constellations have a Biblical meaning could be included. Rev107 ( talk) 06:16, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Let's review:
1.
“ | According to Genesis, in the beginning God said that the sun, moon and stars are for "signs": And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, (or appointed times) and for days and years (Genesis 1:14, ESV)Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the
help page).
|
” |
We've gone off-topic right there. This isn't about the word "Mazzaroth" anymore, indeed, the only use of the word is in the name of a book referenced. Simply talking about the zodiac in a religious context is not enough to justify inclusion. The work cited might be suitable to reference, but this isn't, even before you get to WP:NOTABILITY issues
3.
“ | Joseph Seiss, a Lutheran pastor, authored a book called "The Gospel of the Stars" in which he explains how the stars demonstrate the truth of God's "one plan and purpose of redemption for fallen man." [1] | ” |
Again, no indication that he connects any of this with the term "Mazzaroth", so likely off-topic, even before we get to notability issues.
4.
“ | Ken Fleming, a teacher at the Iowa Emmaus Bible College, has proposed that God created the stars and named the constellations long before demonic forces corrupted the meanings of the stars and enslaved people with superstitious horoscope addiction. He presents the story of human redemption through Christ as pictured in the heavens. [2] | ” |
Again, no connection is made to the word Mazzaroth.
WP:COATRACK issues apply to all of these, even before we get to the notability issues - there isn't the slightest indication any of these people's opinions have caught on in the least, or that they're believed by anyone but a tiny minority of, say, Biblical scholars. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 12:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Pratt's primary views are hardly original - they are based on at least three previous published sources (Rolleston, Seiss & Bullinger) acknowledged in his notes. He is only one of the "increasing number of Christian ministers, authors, and apologists" recognized by Strohmer (above). However, as Pratt has only been published in the LDS magazine "Meridian" (2005) - as far as I know - other sources may be preferable for the article. Rev107 ( talk) 03:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I was asked to comment on the dispute, but I am a bit confused as to what is actually being argued. The article seems to be about a word, yet the dispute seems to be about whether certain viewpoints on astrology should be included. Multiple interpretations of the word would potentially be worth including, but it doesn't seem to me that that is what is being argued about. Please clarify. -- ThaddeusB ( talk) 15:30, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
References
The Douay–Rheims Bible is listed, but content related to it or its context is lacking.
could someone clarify that please? Alohakai ( talk) 05:31, 22 April 2018 (UTC)