![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I cut the phrase from the description of stelae saying they listed "tribute payments due from various conquered regions". I'm unfamiliar with any Maya stelae which include tribute lists, but I certainly don't pretend I've kept up with all the advances in decyphering the texts in recent years, If someone can give a source/example, I'll be happy to put that phrase back in. -- Infrogmation 23:34 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)
Just to note: I've moved this back here from Maya civilization in repsonse to a request to do so - it shouldn't be taken as a sign that I think this is a more correct name than "Maya..." -- Camembert
I wasn't a party to the move and move back, but I'd prefer the article be at Maya civilization. Any objection to my putting it back there? -- Infrogmation 16:23, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Page moved from "Mayan civilization" to "Maya civilization". I've been directing some links to Maya people, now a redirect, because I plan to make that a seperate article in the future. -- Infrogmation 05:19, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I finally got around to making a rough start at the Maya people article. -- Infrogmation 16:17, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Sorry if I'm not doing this properly. Anyway, I was wondering if there is a list of pre-Colombian native languages which had some form of a writing system. Thanks. JM
I cut this text concerning the invention of zero:
since I think this is wrong. Searching the web, I find this claim:
whereas Babylonians had been using a symbol for zero from perhaps the 3rd century BC. Of course the Mayans or their predecessors were certainly using their notation for some before the earliest extant inscription, so they may have got there before the Babylonians but I think it would be better encyclopedic practice just to give the known facts. Gdr 13:14, 2004 May 14 (UTC)
Hm. I know zero was in common use by at least the early 1st century, probably earlier. The earliest Maya or Olmec long count inscription can be taken to show that zero was being used since it's inherent in that calendar's place value numeral system. Zero at least seems to have been in common use by the Mesoamerican civilizations before it was in common use in Europe, Egypt, or apparently even India. So what ever happened to the Babylonian zero? Did it not catch on for some reason? -- Infrogmation 21:45, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
Hey! I just noticed a rather serious, in my opinion, problem with this page. The picture of the statues from Mexico City that are supposedly of the Maya is actually a memorial to the foundation of Tenochtitlán by the Aztecs. I have removed the image. Micah 14 May, 2004
I just came back from a visit to the Caribbean, where we visited the ancient Mayan sites of Dzibanché and Kohunlich. They're not listed among the significant Mayan sites; was that an accidental omission or a deliberate one? If the former, may I add them? If the latter, what was the reason for omitting them? -- Jay (Histrion) 20:05, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that infrogmation didn't like my note about use of the word "pyramid" to describe the Mayan temple structures. I just returned from a trip to that region and heard from a local that the Mayan take issue with "pyramid." Is that not true? Perhaps a better word is "ziggurat?"
Hey! I think it would be awesome if someone was able to add more about the current mayan culture such as marriages and dating or things like that, which would show how the still-present myans live.
thanks! Alex.
I reverted the moving of Joya de Cerén to the "Most important sites" heading. Joya de Cerén (which we still need an article on) is important archeologically since it was unusually well preserved by volcanic eruption, but it was a small farming town of no particular note in its day. All the other sites on that part of the list are also unusually great both in size and of political importance in pre-Columbian history. -- Infrogmation 17:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I know that the people are referred to, even in the plural, as the Maya. But, from looking at this article (and some of the others on related topics) I'm unclear on what the adjective form is supposed to be. I had thought it was Mayan, but it seems to mostly be Maya on these pages. The language page is still Mayan languages though. Beyond just wanting to know for myself, I think there needs to be a quick discussion of the appropriate forms somewhere either on Wikipedia or maybe Wiktionary (with a prominent link from relevant Wikipedia articles). What do the local Mayanists think? -- Tox 08:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The explanations provided here are lucid and concise. I would just like to add, in reference to "why" such a distinction exists, there is actually a simple and logical reason. No, there is no imminent linguistic "showdown" between the disciplines, and the jargon used by linguists is not necessarily at odds with the jargon used by other researchers.
The use of the term "Mayan" in linguistics stems from the fact that it is a proper noun, not an adjective. The fields of history, archeology, and sociology, chose to retain the subject form "Maya" for simultaneous use as an adjective. Either form, Maya or Mayan, serves this purpose equally well, and they are equally grammatical. But, for practical reasons, the disciplines have all settled on one standard form, and Maya has been selected over the other one for consistency.
In the field of linguistics, however, scholars had to come up with a proper name for the language spoken by the Maya. Following the common academic formula for the adjective form, we could refer to it as the "Maya Language," however, this would not constitute a proper name, merely an adjective phrase describing "language," and telling what kind of language it is. We cannot call the language itself "Maya" because, quite simply, it isn't Maya, it is a language; Maya (the proper noun not the adjective) is the name of a civilization, or it can denote a member of that civilization.
No one would refer to a pyramid, a bracelet, or a glyph, by simply calling it a "Maya," in the noun form, although they might call it a Maya tree, or a Maya pyramid, or a Maya bracelet, in the adjective form. So, in order to form an actual proper noun to name the Maya language, linguists have taken, as their root, the proper name for the civilization itself, Maya, and to it added the suffix "-n". The selection of this suffix is purely aesthetic, for it is less phonetically combersome than "Mayaese" or "Mayaish." Linguists simply looked in their repertoire of language-name-denoting suffixes and chose the one that sounded most pleasing to the ear. Also, to simplify usage within the discipline, linguists have adopted another unique convention: the adjective denoting that which has to do with the Mayan language is also "Mayan," as opposed to saying "Maya language," even though both form are correct, in principle.
Confusion arises because the proper noun "Mayan" is identical to the adjective "Mayan," even though they are completely different words, that is to say, they are homonyms, just as "bat," the flying mammal, and "bat," the wooden stick, are homonyms, and are different words with different meanings. In the case of Mayan, the homonyms not only have different definitions, they are also different parts of speech: "Mayan" is a proper noun describing the name of the Maya language, while "Mayan" is an adjective describing either a relationship with Mayan language or a relationship with the Mayan civilization--the first and second are universally accepted forms, while the third is not accepted, but is supplanted in academic usage by the adjective "Maya."
-- 189.156.185.243 23:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
2 things. First, is it heavily debated what brought down the Maya? I've heard a snail was found in lake sediment that demo drought, the worst in 7KY as I recall, was prevalent & proximate cause; true? (I'm by N means expert.
Also, can somebody include pronounciations? The names & words are a bit tongue-twisting. Please, no IPA, it's gibberish to me (& doubtless many others), unless you can add an equivalent (like dictionaries do). OK? Gracias! Trekphiler 20:06, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The new passages on Maya polities, recently added by anon 24.61.41.158 ( talk · contribs) are helpful and informative, but would be more so if the underlying reference source(s) are explicitly identified. Mayanists are not all in agreement as to the formation and character of Classic political entities, it would be useful therefore to identify which sources have been relied upon. Also, I'm not sure that the readings from the Naranjo texts have been so securely interpreted, or at least several of the readings are perhaps more tentative than indicated here. Again, it would help to know from which source these readings were obtained. In anticipation, -- cjllw | TALK 06:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason blood sacrifice isn't mentioned? This at the very least is a part of popular culture about most mesoamerican cultures. If it is considered untrue by the current establishment then it should at least be noted. Nickjost 21:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Another issue is that someone has gotten all New Agey with the worship of circles and obsession with swasticas (which I've never seen and I know Maya--maybe they're talking about poop glyphs?) and bringing back the Carnegie "time and math worship" thing. Anyone else think that this should be deleted?
ok, there seems to be a total lack of consistency here. this article states that some writing about mayan women exists, in the following:
" Most surviving pre-Columbian Maya writing is from stelae and other stone inscriptions from Maya sites, many of which were already abandoned before the Spanish arrived. The inscriptions on the stelae mainly record the dynasties and wars of the sites' rulers. Also of note are the incriptions that reveal information about the lives of ancient Maya women. Much of the remainder of Maya hieroglyphics has been found on funeral pottery, most of which describes the afterlife. "
but the linked article Maya women seems to claim the complete oppoisite:
" Ancient Maya women had an important role in society: beyond just propagating culture through the bearing and raising of children, Maya women involved themselves in economic, governmental and farming activities. Yet the lives of women in ancient Mesoamerica were not well-documented: “of the three elite founding area tombs discovered to date within the Copan Acropolis," writes one scholar, "two contain the remains of women, and yet there is not a single reference to a woman in either known contemporary texts or later retrospective accounts of Early Classis events and personages at Copan.” "
maybe i have just completely misunderstood what is being stated, but it seems a contradiction to me. 204.95.67.67 05:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC) edited comment 204.95.67.67 05:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The discrepency is only apparent, but I can see where the perception has arisen. Historical female figures are indeed named in Maya inscriptions at a few different sites, generally as the mother or consort of a particular ruler, but also on a few occasions as rulers in their own right. The quote you mention from the Maya women article however is referring to inscriptions from only a single site, Copán. So, while explicit mention or naming of female personages at Copán may be lacking, they are present at some other sites. -- cjllw | TALK 12:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I see the history does not seem to go beyonf the 1800's, can I mention the Zapatistas? -- 69.248.43.27 06:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
While this article contains much useful and valid information (as well as some areas in need of attention), it still needs to be marked-up with citations and references. Before going too far down that road however, we should determine up-front which of the various citation styles are best suited for the task. The contenders would be:
My stated preference at the moment would be for the cite.php system, but each method has its benefits and annoyances. I'd be interested to hear of any others' opinions.-- cjllw | TALK 04:42, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The original template is at Template:Pre-Columbian. The "new and improved" version is at Template:Pre-Columbian/Test.
Once we have a usable version of Template:Pre-Columbian/Test, we plan to move it into Template:Pre-Columbian and then insert it at the bottom of the Aztec, Maya civilization and Inca empire articles.
Discussion is at Template talk:Pre-Columbian. Please share any feedback and suggestions that you may have.
-- Richard 19:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the recent changes which cut out large topical sections of text to be placed into sub-articles, leaving behind only a "see main" pointer. Apart from noting that substantial changes such as those would be better placed if proposed, considered and discussed before they are made, I've some other concerns with that action at this point in time:
I reiterate that I think the goal (tidying up the article and expanding coverage in general) is worthwhile, but IMO we need to establish some sort of consensus and 'overall plan' first.-- cjllw | TALK 02:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
So I see, but discussion on a template's talk page is easily missed. Still, no matter, and as per above I'm supportive of a sensible reorganisation for the article (and others in this vein as well); I appreciate the efforts being made in this direction, just so long as the remaining texts continue to make sense and cover all that they would be expected to cover.
I recognise the difficulties in trying to flesh out some consistency in a group of thematically-related articles, which would be challenging to achieve over a range of talk pages and the like. One method of coordinating such efforts between interested editors is to set up a WikiProject devoted to the task- this way, a common forum is provided away from article name- and talkspace where some strategy and action plan can be mapped out. > TALK 07:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to remark that writing a short section at the appropriate place would have been more constructive than simply reverting the changes. The article as it is now is too long and unstructured, so the changes I initiated are still necessary. My apologies for not proposing it at the talk page, that was wrong. Piet 08:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
To this end (and since there is not another with the same scope), I've now created a bare-bones draft of just such a WikiProject : WikiProject Mesoamerica. I'm proposing a scope of Mesoamerica for now, mainly because it makes sense to treat the various Mesoamerican civilizations together since they share many common features and an intertwined history of several thousand years' standing; Mesoamerican studies is also a cohesive field in various academic disciplines. "Pre-Columbian" is omitted from the title partly because it is mostly implied anyway when the term Mesoamerica is used, and partly because the story of Mesoamerican peoples and their achievements does not stop in 1492. A project to encompass all pre-Columbian societies/civilizations could perhaps also be set up as a parent to this one, but might need some more rigorous definition if it is not actually to embrace all history and prehistory of the Americas.
You and any other interested party would be most welcome to transfer and continue any thoughts and scope/planning discussions you have to this WikiProject, as well as to work on building up other aspects of the project page, direction, definition, resources, etc. Cheers,-- cjllw | TALK 07:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, my thoughts on proposed scope for WP:MESO would be for it to cover the full range of Mesoamerican peoples and their achievements and histories, including those who as yet have little representation in wikipedia, and those not necessarily described as 'civilisations'. I'd also see room in the scope to address some other areas beyond just pre-Columbian history and archaeology, and to get the fuller picture also consider aspects such as geography, environment, linguistics, sociology, and the field and history of Mesoamerican research itself. Something rather like in fact the scope mapped out by the volumes of the classic Handbook of Middle American Indians publications. It could also usefully extend to documenting the experiences and effects subsequent to European colonisation up to the present-day situation. So, while there are clearly synergies between the proposals, there may as you say be different perspectives and priorities. There's no reason not to have them both in some sort of complementary fashion; WP:pre-Columbian can parent WP:MESO as suggested even if there are some differences of scope.
I gather the intended scope for Pre-Columbian is to focus more on selected civilisations (however defined), than a general review of indigenous American societies pre-conquest? There is another project Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America which also has some of the same concepts (but more for contemporary than historical peoples), but none AFAIK looking at South American historical cultures.-- cjllw | TALK 13:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
That sounds like a sensible approach, and WP:Pre-Columbian can serve as a broader strategy forum which can tie together WP:MESO and any other regional sub-projects which might like to be defined. WP:MESO and other potential subprojects would be the actual workspaces to hold the details of plans for article improvement in their particular field/region, while WP:Pre-Columbian would allow space for discussions, themes and guidelines which are inter-regional and provide any necessary coordination and consistency between regions.-- cjllw | TALK 00:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Another issue is that someone has gotten all New Agey with the worship of circles and obsession with swastikas (which I've never seen and I know Maya--maybe they're talking about poop glyphs?) and bringing back the Carnegie "time and math worship" thing. Anyone else think that this should be deleted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.211.225.78 ( talk • contribs) 7 May 2006.
What sections do people feel should have sub-articles? Do we need a "History of" or, given that this is already a historic civilization, should the main article be the History of? "Art of" or move "Architecture" to "Art and architecture"? Finally, with sub-articles created how long should the sections be here? The architecture section has been copied and pasted, and we should probably now reduce it, for example. Marskell 13:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
A few of the above themes and sub-areas are covered and/or have their own articles now, but coverage of others is presently lacking. This outline needs a little more thought (comments invited) re the overall structure and coverage.-- cjllw | TALK 07:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This interesting amendment to the "Maya Civilization" article merits discussion and ultimately inclusioin in the article:
The White Maya have since time immemorial been an influential minority within the Quiché-Maya populations of southern Mexico and Central America. Cultural anthropologists and archaeologists note that there is no evidence to suggest that the White Maya necessarily enjoyed any special privileges as a result of their geographically unusual phenotype (i.e. their light skin tone, aquiline noses, blue eye color, creased eyelids, prominent chin, brown or blond hair color, and thick beards), although there is both historical and contemporary evidence to suggest that White Maya may have been over-represented in the Quiché shamanic class, and therefore may have, on average, demonstrated higher than normal mathematical and analytical abilities vis-a-vis the rest of the Maya population. Genetic studies and family histories suggest that the White Maya preferred (or where required?) to marry those of their own phenotype. Mayan artifacts recovered from pre-Columbian tomb sites, pyramids and astrological observatories frequently and clearly depict the presence of White Maya in both pre-Columbian Quiché society and mythology. For example, Itzamna, the son of Hunab Ku (one of the most ancient of Mayan gods) is represented in many surviving codices as "an old man with a large jaw, sunken cheeks, an aquiline nose and a beard." Some physical anthropologists have suggested that the White Maya may share a common, though quite ancient, descent with the modern Basque people, as both groups have uniquely high levels of Rh-negative blood factor. An old legend tells of Bishop Diego de Landa, a Basque "by blood and birthright", fluently conversing with the Maya in his own native Euskera (believed to be the oldest language in Europe). There is also anecdotal evidence that during the Spanish conquest the White Maya were among the first and most fervent converts to Christianity, that many White Maya shamans went on to become Christian missionaries themselves, and that, in later centuries, White Maya were often chosen by their communities to serve as teachers of the Catechism. Many European and American visitors to the Yucatan and Central America have in recent times reported visiting isolated Mayan communities and encountering white bearded men with aquiline or even "scimitar-like" noses, men who could not speak a word of Spanish and appeared to be fully acculturated to traditional Quiché-Maya life. And yet, of all the Maya, it appears as though the White Maya have been the least able (or willing?) to retain their ancient identity in the face of the identicidal threats of modern mestizo society. This is surely because, as Bishop Diego de Landa's symbolic interpellation proved, the White Maya have always been both too old and too young for their time.
(subarticle references: José Miguel Covarrubias 1956; William C. Boyd 1958; F. Harris III 1992; M. Wells Jakeman 1947; Kirk Magleby 1979; John L. Sorenson 1988; Andrzej Wiercinski 1998)
The article was not "joinked." The existence of the White Maya is common knowledge, at least in Mayan communities (i.e. parts of Mexico and Central America). The White Maya are also referred to, somewhat archaically, as Nephites in some older sources. "Nephite" appears in google scholar. Will augment article and provide full source documentation. I'm beginning to suspect there's an element of anti-White Maya bias in your skepticism. White Maya author anon 3 July 2006
This article states that the Maya had no single leader, unlike the Inca of Peru. However, that is an oversimplification of the conquest of Peru. When Pizzaro landed in Peru, both Huáscar and Atahualpa claimed to be the Sapa Inca. Indeed, the Spanish made a game out of recognizing and using all sorts of people as the Sapa Inca in order to advance their own cause. -- Descendall 18:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I have removed two references from the "See Also" section of the article, as the relationship between Maya Civilization and the Japanese manga Monkey D. Luffy and Naruto seems nil. Filksinger 17:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The recently-added snippet of information re the Maya supposed observations of the Orion Nebula [2] has me a little puzzled, although I don't doubt that the cited book mentions something along these lines. Firstly, it's unclear to me whether the attribution is referring to the pre-Columbian Maya of this article (which seems unlikely, given the nebula's prominence only detected from the 17th C.) or the conquest/colonial era Maya peoples (mention of "folk tales" would seem to favour this interpretation). It also seems implausible, or at least a stretch, to say that "folk tales" demonstrate or prove anything, let alone an interpretation which I am sure is not documented in any inscription; it may be that this particular author has interpreted the iconography this way, but it is not something otherwise attested to in the archaeological literature AFAIK. And which "hearths", exactly- colonial-era, or even modern, Maya ones?
Perhaps if the specific passage from the cited work could be posted here, its intent and the scope of the statement may become clearer, as it stands it seems highly doubtful.-- cjllw | TALK 05:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks William for posting the passage. On reading, the basis for the claim is not that much clearer, at least to me - I struggle to picture just what O'Dell is describing, or see how it conclusively shows this celestial object was perceived as being diffuse. I gather O'Dell's speciality is not Mesoamerican history, I wonder what sources he draws on for the association with the Orion Nebula? In any case, it seems to rely upon some element of Maya folklore, which by necessity could only be documented from post-conquest times, and so this may not be relevant to the pre-Columbian Maya. I'll see if I can find any other corroborating references which might be able to make this claim clearer.-- cjllw | TALK 00:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks William for the legwork in tracking down these additional references, which clarify the situation- most interesting. I know of Krupp, Kent Reilly & co, and have no issues regards reliable sources. From the preceding, it seems the attribution should be to colonial/contemporary Maya traditions, with perhaps some tie-in to pre-Columbian iconography as suggested by Schele, although reconstructions of asterisms identified in pre-Columbian times are generally tentative. I think it only now needs a little tidying up distinguish the historical periods the identification of a nebulous appearance applies to. Thanks again, and regards -- cjllw | TALK 04:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Aztek 0 19:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC) I agree totally to the use of BCE and CE to mark dates instead if BC and AD, even though they might be equivalent. What I noted in the article is that this convention was not used throughout it. BCE and CE were used consistently up to "Political Structure", where it changed to BC and AD. Thank you for a very good effort.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I cut the phrase from the description of stelae saying they listed "tribute payments due from various conquered regions". I'm unfamiliar with any Maya stelae which include tribute lists, but I certainly don't pretend I've kept up with all the advances in decyphering the texts in recent years, If someone can give a source/example, I'll be happy to put that phrase back in. -- Infrogmation 23:34 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)
Just to note: I've moved this back here from Maya civilization in repsonse to a request to do so - it shouldn't be taken as a sign that I think this is a more correct name than "Maya..." -- Camembert
I wasn't a party to the move and move back, but I'd prefer the article be at Maya civilization. Any objection to my putting it back there? -- Infrogmation 16:23, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Page moved from "Mayan civilization" to "Maya civilization". I've been directing some links to Maya people, now a redirect, because I plan to make that a seperate article in the future. -- Infrogmation 05:19, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I finally got around to making a rough start at the Maya people article. -- Infrogmation 16:17, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Sorry if I'm not doing this properly. Anyway, I was wondering if there is a list of pre-Colombian native languages which had some form of a writing system. Thanks. JM
I cut this text concerning the invention of zero:
since I think this is wrong. Searching the web, I find this claim:
whereas Babylonians had been using a symbol for zero from perhaps the 3rd century BC. Of course the Mayans or their predecessors were certainly using their notation for some before the earliest extant inscription, so they may have got there before the Babylonians but I think it would be better encyclopedic practice just to give the known facts. Gdr 13:14, 2004 May 14 (UTC)
Hm. I know zero was in common use by at least the early 1st century, probably earlier. The earliest Maya or Olmec long count inscription can be taken to show that zero was being used since it's inherent in that calendar's place value numeral system. Zero at least seems to have been in common use by the Mesoamerican civilizations before it was in common use in Europe, Egypt, or apparently even India. So what ever happened to the Babylonian zero? Did it not catch on for some reason? -- Infrogmation 21:45, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
Hey! I just noticed a rather serious, in my opinion, problem with this page. The picture of the statues from Mexico City that are supposedly of the Maya is actually a memorial to the foundation of Tenochtitlán by the Aztecs. I have removed the image. Micah 14 May, 2004
I just came back from a visit to the Caribbean, where we visited the ancient Mayan sites of Dzibanché and Kohunlich. They're not listed among the significant Mayan sites; was that an accidental omission or a deliberate one? If the former, may I add them? If the latter, what was the reason for omitting them? -- Jay (Histrion) 20:05, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that infrogmation didn't like my note about use of the word "pyramid" to describe the Mayan temple structures. I just returned from a trip to that region and heard from a local that the Mayan take issue with "pyramid." Is that not true? Perhaps a better word is "ziggurat?"
Hey! I think it would be awesome if someone was able to add more about the current mayan culture such as marriages and dating or things like that, which would show how the still-present myans live.
thanks! Alex.
I reverted the moving of Joya de Cerén to the "Most important sites" heading. Joya de Cerén (which we still need an article on) is important archeologically since it was unusually well preserved by volcanic eruption, but it was a small farming town of no particular note in its day. All the other sites on that part of the list are also unusually great both in size and of political importance in pre-Columbian history. -- Infrogmation 17:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I know that the people are referred to, even in the plural, as the Maya. But, from looking at this article (and some of the others on related topics) I'm unclear on what the adjective form is supposed to be. I had thought it was Mayan, but it seems to mostly be Maya on these pages. The language page is still Mayan languages though. Beyond just wanting to know for myself, I think there needs to be a quick discussion of the appropriate forms somewhere either on Wikipedia or maybe Wiktionary (with a prominent link from relevant Wikipedia articles). What do the local Mayanists think? -- Tox 08:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The explanations provided here are lucid and concise. I would just like to add, in reference to "why" such a distinction exists, there is actually a simple and logical reason. No, there is no imminent linguistic "showdown" between the disciplines, and the jargon used by linguists is not necessarily at odds with the jargon used by other researchers.
The use of the term "Mayan" in linguistics stems from the fact that it is a proper noun, not an adjective. The fields of history, archeology, and sociology, chose to retain the subject form "Maya" for simultaneous use as an adjective. Either form, Maya or Mayan, serves this purpose equally well, and they are equally grammatical. But, for practical reasons, the disciplines have all settled on one standard form, and Maya has been selected over the other one for consistency.
In the field of linguistics, however, scholars had to come up with a proper name for the language spoken by the Maya. Following the common academic formula for the adjective form, we could refer to it as the "Maya Language," however, this would not constitute a proper name, merely an adjective phrase describing "language," and telling what kind of language it is. We cannot call the language itself "Maya" because, quite simply, it isn't Maya, it is a language; Maya (the proper noun not the adjective) is the name of a civilization, or it can denote a member of that civilization.
No one would refer to a pyramid, a bracelet, or a glyph, by simply calling it a "Maya," in the noun form, although they might call it a Maya tree, or a Maya pyramid, or a Maya bracelet, in the adjective form. So, in order to form an actual proper noun to name the Maya language, linguists have taken, as their root, the proper name for the civilization itself, Maya, and to it added the suffix "-n". The selection of this suffix is purely aesthetic, for it is less phonetically combersome than "Mayaese" or "Mayaish." Linguists simply looked in their repertoire of language-name-denoting suffixes and chose the one that sounded most pleasing to the ear. Also, to simplify usage within the discipline, linguists have adopted another unique convention: the adjective denoting that which has to do with the Mayan language is also "Mayan," as opposed to saying "Maya language," even though both form are correct, in principle.
Confusion arises because the proper noun "Mayan" is identical to the adjective "Mayan," even though they are completely different words, that is to say, they are homonyms, just as "bat," the flying mammal, and "bat," the wooden stick, are homonyms, and are different words with different meanings. In the case of Mayan, the homonyms not only have different definitions, they are also different parts of speech: "Mayan" is a proper noun describing the name of the Maya language, while "Mayan" is an adjective describing either a relationship with Mayan language or a relationship with the Mayan civilization--the first and second are universally accepted forms, while the third is not accepted, but is supplanted in academic usage by the adjective "Maya."
-- 189.156.185.243 23:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
2 things. First, is it heavily debated what brought down the Maya? I've heard a snail was found in lake sediment that demo drought, the worst in 7KY as I recall, was prevalent & proximate cause; true? (I'm by N means expert.
Also, can somebody include pronounciations? The names & words are a bit tongue-twisting. Please, no IPA, it's gibberish to me (& doubtless many others), unless you can add an equivalent (like dictionaries do). OK? Gracias! Trekphiler 20:06, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
The new passages on Maya polities, recently added by anon 24.61.41.158 ( talk · contribs) are helpful and informative, but would be more so if the underlying reference source(s) are explicitly identified. Mayanists are not all in agreement as to the formation and character of Classic political entities, it would be useful therefore to identify which sources have been relied upon. Also, I'm not sure that the readings from the Naranjo texts have been so securely interpreted, or at least several of the readings are perhaps more tentative than indicated here. Again, it would help to know from which source these readings were obtained. In anticipation, -- cjllw | TALK 06:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason blood sacrifice isn't mentioned? This at the very least is a part of popular culture about most mesoamerican cultures. If it is considered untrue by the current establishment then it should at least be noted. Nickjost 21:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Another issue is that someone has gotten all New Agey with the worship of circles and obsession with swasticas (which I've never seen and I know Maya--maybe they're talking about poop glyphs?) and bringing back the Carnegie "time and math worship" thing. Anyone else think that this should be deleted?
ok, there seems to be a total lack of consistency here. this article states that some writing about mayan women exists, in the following:
" Most surviving pre-Columbian Maya writing is from stelae and other stone inscriptions from Maya sites, many of which were already abandoned before the Spanish arrived. The inscriptions on the stelae mainly record the dynasties and wars of the sites' rulers. Also of note are the incriptions that reveal information about the lives of ancient Maya women. Much of the remainder of Maya hieroglyphics has been found on funeral pottery, most of which describes the afterlife. "
but the linked article Maya women seems to claim the complete oppoisite:
" Ancient Maya women had an important role in society: beyond just propagating culture through the bearing and raising of children, Maya women involved themselves in economic, governmental and farming activities. Yet the lives of women in ancient Mesoamerica were not well-documented: “of the three elite founding area tombs discovered to date within the Copan Acropolis," writes one scholar, "two contain the remains of women, and yet there is not a single reference to a woman in either known contemporary texts or later retrospective accounts of Early Classis events and personages at Copan.” "
maybe i have just completely misunderstood what is being stated, but it seems a contradiction to me. 204.95.67.67 05:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC) edited comment 204.95.67.67 05:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
The discrepency is only apparent, but I can see where the perception has arisen. Historical female figures are indeed named in Maya inscriptions at a few different sites, generally as the mother or consort of a particular ruler, but also on a few occasions as rulers in their own right. The quote you mention from the Maya women article however is referring to inscriptions from only a single site, Copán. So, while explicit mention or naming of female personages at Copán may be lacking, they are present at some other sites. -- cjllw | TALK 12:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I see the history does not seem to go beyonf the 1800's, can I mention the Zapatistas? -- 69.248.43.27 06:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
While this article contains much useful and valid information (as well as some areas in need of attention), it still needs to be marked-up with citations and references. Before going too far down that road however, we should determine up-front which of the various citation styles are best suited for the task. The contenders would be:
My stated preference at the moment would be for the cite.php system, but each method has its benefits and annoyances. I'd be interested to hear of any others' opinions.-- cjllw | TALK 04:42, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The original template is at Template:Pre-Columbian. The "new and improved" version is at Template:Pre-Columbian/Test.
Once we have a usable version of Template:Pre-Columbian/Test, we plan to move it into Template:Pre-Columbian and then insert it at the bottom of the Aztec, Maya civilization and Inca empire articles.
Discussion is at Template talk:Pre-Columbian. Please share any feedback and suggestions that you may have.
-- Richard 19:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the recent changes which cut out large topical sections of text to be placed into sub-articles, leaving behind only a "see main" pointer. Apart from noting that substantial changes such as those would be better placed if proposed, considered and discussed before they are made, I've some other concerns with that action at this point in time:
I reiterate that I think the goal (tidying up the article and expanding coverage in general) is worthwhile, but IMO we need to establish some sort of consensus and 'overall plan' first.-- cjllw | TALK 02:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
So I see, but discussion on a template's talk page is easily missed. Still, no matter, and as per above I'm supportive of a sensible reorganisation for the article (and others in this vein as well); I appreciate the efforts being made in this direction, just so long as the remaining texts continue to make sense and cover all that they would be expected to cover.
I recognise the difficulties in trying to flesh out some consistency in a group of thematically-related articles, which would be challenging to achieve over a range of talk pages and the like. One method of coordinating such efforts between interested editors is to set up a WikiProject devoted to the task- this way, a common forum is provided away from article name- and talkspace where some strategy and action plan can be mapped out. > TALK 07:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I would like to remark that writing a short section at the appropriate place would have been more constructive than simply reverting the changes. The article as it is now is too long and unstructured, so the changes I initiated are still necessary. My apologies for not proposing it at the talk page, that was wrong. Piet 08:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
To this end (and since there is not another with the same scope), I've now created a bare-bones draft of just such a WikiProject : WikiProject Mesoamerica. I'm proposing a scope of Mesoamerica for now, mainly because it makes sense to treat the various Mesoamerican civilizations together since they share many common features and an intertwined history of several thousand years' standing; Mesoamerican studies is also a cohesive field in various academic disciplines. "Pre-Columbian" is omitted from the title partly because it is mostly implied anyway when the term Mesoamerica is used, and partly because the story of Mesoamerican peoples and their achievements does not stop in 1492. A project to encompass all pre-Columbian societies/civilizations could perhaps also be set up as a parent to this one, but might need some more rigorous definition if it is not actually to embrace all history and prehistory of the Americas.
You and any other interested party would be most welcome to transfer and continue any thoughts and scope/planning discussions you have to this WikiProject, as well as to work on building up other aspects of the project page, direction, definition, resources, etc. Cheers,-- cjllw | TALK 07:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, my thoughts on proposed scope for WP:MESO would be for it to cover the full range of Mesoamerican peoples and their achievements and histories, including those who as yet have little representation in wikipedia, and those not necessarily described as 'civilisations'. I'd also see room in the scope to address some other areas beyond just pre-Columbian history and archaeology, and to get the fuller picture also consider aspects such as geography, environment, linguistics, sociology, and the field and history of Mesoamerican research itself. Something rather like in fact the scope mapped out by the volumes of the classic Handbook of Middle American Indians publications. It could also usefully extend to documenting the experiences and effects subsequent to European colonisation up to the present-day situation. So, while there are clearly synergies between the proposals, there may as you say be different perspectives and priorities. There's no reason not to have them both in some sort of complementary fashion; WP:pre-Columbian can parent WP:MESO as suggested even if there are some differences of scope.
I gather the intended scope for Pre-Columbian is to focus more on selected civilisations (however defined), than a general review of indigenous American societies pre-conquest? There is another project Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America which also has some of the same concepts (but more for contemporary than historical peoples), but none AFAIK looking at South American historical cultures.-- cjllw | TALK 13:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
That sounds like a sensible approach, and WP:Pre-Columbian can serve as a broader strategy forum which can tie together WP:MESO and any other regional sub-projects which might like to be defined. WP:MESO and other potential subprojects would be the actual workspaces to hold the details of plans for article improvement in their particular field/region, while WP:Pre-Columbian would allow space for discussions, themes and guidelines which are inter-regional and provide any necessary coordination and consistency between regions.-- cjllw | TALK 00:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Another issue is that someone has gotten all New Agey with the worship of circles and obsession with swastikas (which I've never seen and I know Maya--maybe they're talking about poop glyphs?) and bringing back the Carnegie "time and math worship" thing. Anyone else think that this should be deleted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.211.225.78 ( talk • contribs) 7 May 2006.
What sections do people feel should have sub-articles? Do we need a "History of" or, given that this is already a historic civilization, should the main article be the History of? "Art of" or move "Architecture" to "Art and architecture"? Finally, with sub-articles created how long should the sections be here? The architecture section has been copied and pasted, and we should probably now reduce it, for example. Marskell 13:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
A few of the above themes and sub-areas are covered and/or have their own articles now, but coverage of others is presently lacking. This outline needs a little more thought (comments invited) re the overall structure and coverage.-- cjllw | TALK 07:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
This interesting amendment to the "Maya Civilization" article merits discussion and ultimately inclusioin in the article:
The White Maya have since time immemorial been an influential minority within the Quiché-Maya populations of southern Mexico and Central America. Cultural anthropologists and archaeologists note that there is no evidence to suggest that the White Maya necessarily enjoyed any special privileges as a result of their geographically unusual phenotype (i.e. their light skin tone, aquiline noses, blue eye color, creased eyelids, prominent chin, brown or blond hair color, and thick beards), although there is both historical and contemporary evidence to suggest that White Maya may have been over-represented in the Quiché shamanic class, and therefore may have, on average, demonstrated higher than normal mathematical and analytical abilities vis-a-vis the rest of the Maya population. Genetic studies and family histories suggest that the White Maya preferred (or where required?) to marry those of their own phenotype. Mayan artifacts recovered from pre-Columbian tomb sites, pyramids and astrological observatories frequently and clearly depict the presence of White Maya in both pre-Columbian Quiché society and mythology. For example, Itzamna, the son of Hunab Ku (one of the most ancient of Mayan gods) is represented in many surviving codices as "an old man with a large jaw, sunken cheeks, an aquiline nose and a beard." Some physical anthropologists have suggested that the White Maya may share a common, though quite ancient, descent with the modern Basque people, as both groups have uniquely high levels of Rh-negative blood factor. An old legend tells of Bishop Diego de Landa, a Basque "by blood and birthright", fluently conversing with the Maya in his own native Euskera (believed to be the oldest language in Europe). There is also anecdotal evidence that during the Spanish conquest the White Maya were among the first and most fervent converts to Christianity, that many White Maya shamans went on to become Christian missionaries themselves, and that, in later centuries, White Maya were often chosen by their communities to serve as teachers of the Catechism. Many European and American visitors to the Yucatan and Central America have in recent times reported visiting isolated Mayan communities and encountering white bearded men with aquiline or even "scimitar-like" noses, men who could not speak a word of Spanish and appeared to be fully acculturated to traditional Quiché-Maya life. And yet, of all the Maya, it appears as though the White Maya have been the least able (or willing?) to retain their ancient identity in the face of the identicidal threats of modern mestizo society. This is surely because, as Bishop Diego de Landa's symbolic interpellation proved, the White Maya have always been both too old and too young for their time.
(subarticle references: José Miguel Covarrubias 1956; William C. Boyd 1958; F. Harris III 1992; M. Wells Jakeman 1947; Kirk Magleby 1979; John L. Sorenson 1988; Andrzej Wiercinski 1998)
The article was not "joinked." The existence of the White Maya is common knowledge, at least in Mayan communities (i.e. parts of Mexico and Central America). The White Maya are also referred to, somewhat archaically, as Nephites in some older sources. "Nephite" appears in google scholar. Will augment article and provide full source documentation. I'm beginning to suspect there's an element of anti-White Maya bias in your skepticism. White Maya author anon 3 July 2006
This article states that the Maya had no single leader, unlike the Inca of Peru. However, that is an oversimplification of the conquest of Peru. When Pizzaro landed in Peru, both Huáscar and Atahualpa claimed to be the Sapa Inca. Indeed, the Spanish made a game out of recognizing and using all sorts of people as the Sapa Inca in order to advance their own cause. -- Descendall 18:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
I have removed two references from the "See Also" section of the article, as the relationship between Maya Civilization and the Japanese manga Monkey D. Luffy and Naruto seems nil. Filksinger 17:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The recently-added snippet of information re the Maya supposed observations of the Orion Nebula [2] has me a little puzzled, although I don't doubt that the cited book mentions something along these lines. Firstly, it's unclear to me whether the attribution is referring to the pre-Columbian Maya of this article (which seems unlikely, given the nebula's prominence only detected from the 17th C.) or the conquest/colonial era Maya peoples (mention of "folk tales" would seem to favour this interpretation). It also seems implausible, or at least a stretch, to say that "folk tales" demonstrate or prove anything, let alone an interpretation which I am sure is not documented in any inscription; it may be that this particular author has interpreted the iconography this way, but it is not something otherwise attested to in the archaeological literature AFAIK. And which "hearths", exactly- colonial-era, or even modern, Maya ones?
Perhaps if the specific passage from the cited work could be posted here, its intent and the scope of the statement may become clearer, as it stands it seems highly doubtful.-- cjllw | TALK 05:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks William for posting the passage. On reading, the basis for the claim is not that much clearer, at least to me - I struggle to picture just what O'Dell is describing, or see how it conclusively shows this celestial object was perceived as being diffuse. I gather O'Dell's speciality is not Mesoamerican history, I wonder what sources he draws on for the association with the Orion Nebula? In any case, it seems to rely upon some element of Maya folklore, which by necessity could only be documented from post-conquest times, and so this may not be relevant to the pre-Columbian Maya. I'll see if I can find any other corroborating references which might be able to make this claim clearer.-- cjllw | TALK 00:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks William for the legwork in tracking down these additional references, which clarify the situation- most interesting. I know of Krupp, Kent Reilly & co, and have no issues regards reliable sources. From the preceding, it seems the attribution should be to colonial/contemporary Maya traditions, with perhaps some tie-in to pre-Columbian iconography as suggested by Schele, although reconstructions of asterisms identified in pre-Columbian times are generally tentative. I think it only now needs a little tidying up distinguish the historical periods the identification of a nebulous appearance applies to. Thanks again, and regards -- cjllw | TALK 04:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Aztek 0 19:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC) I agree totally to the use of BCE and CE to mark dates instead if BC and AD, even though they might be equivalent. What I noted in the article is that this convention was not used throughout it. BCE and CE were used consistently up to "Political Structure", where it changed to BC and AD. Thank you for a very good effort.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |