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Is it just me or is there something fundamentally wrong with the following sentece I have removed from the article:
She described the street-fighting in the context of a fascist anarchotrotskyist putsch ("anarchotrotskyist" is meant to include the POUM, a faction which the Stalinist Communists accused of being Trotskyist but which Trotsky himself repeatedly attacked. POUM itself resented Trotskyism, and never defined itself in relation to him.)
Please return it if it's OK. Thanks. -- Technopat ( talk) 03:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I may be misunderstanding all the anagrams but doesn't Orwell's Homage to Catalonia support the statement that "... under the influence of the Stalinist Communist Party of Spain and its local wing, the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (PSUC)" and should perhaps be cited as such? -- TBWRB ( talk) 08:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
The term Stalinist in slanderous and pejorative. You can say USSR-backed or Sovietphile, but the term Stalinist has been repeatedly rejected by Marxist-Leninists. If you don't change this, I will. Spartacus Marat ( talk)
One of the few resources of this article is the propaganda work "Black Book of Communism". Not a surprise Trotskyist and anti-communists teaming together again. -- Martxel Alexander ( talk) 23:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Also the term 'revolution' is a huge POV. Anarchists and poum thought that they were doing a revolution. But i think this is a fringe anarchist friendly theory.
Major historian's views isn't this. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 07:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
If someone wants to laugh they can compare how the article was before the translated article was fully restored. Even changing the text in Hugh Thomas references, he should be an Anarchist now. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=May_Days&diff=903687988&oldid=886482796&diffmode=source Buen Ciudadano ( talk) 03:51, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm no expert on military history but were Stormtroopers really involved in this? Maybe it's just a term and I'm being stupid... Skunkman3118 ( talk) 16:17, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm uncertain they were involved, but stormtroopers is mostly a german-derived word for assault troopers (being the french-derived term) so it's a possibility given that the setup was still largely WW1 with slightly better kit. 216.252.75.220 ( talk) 13:59, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
The retarded Trotskyists and anti-communists that made this article use that term for the Assault Guard. I'm translating the Spanish article that is more complete than this Church pamphlet. If somebody does not understand something once I end with the translation, please say it here. -- Martxel Alexander ( talk) 03:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
This reads more like a Marxist interpretation of what happened vice neutral historical analysis. If someone has the time and effort it would be useful to delete/revise statements like "wanted to defend bourgeois capital of UK and France" or all the references in general to bourgeois, Trotskyist, Stalinist, etc. unless supported by some form of impartial documentation. As it stands, this would not be accepted by even a high school level history teacher due to the massive amount of unsourced comments and overwhelming amount of unsupported Marxist class analysis in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.208.116.108 ( talk) 02:45, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Yeah exactly. But anarchist POV is everywhere in en:wp. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 07:34, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
For that reasons i have put the tempalte of neutrallity.
Αντικαθεστωτικός (
talk)
11:14, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
The arguments here do not support the claim that there is lack of neutrality. Cinadon 36 18:55, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
The article was already restored. It is not the same than when it was edited by an Anarchist from London (according to his IP). It is exactly the Spanish article in fact, with only the "Popular Culture" part remaining. Buen Ciudadano ( talk) 08:31, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
From Stanley G. Payne publications of Yale:
This is a historian view about the facts from a anti-communist prospective. Not an POV anarchist fringe theory as this article promote. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 09:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Can you please elaborate? What 's the historians view (please cite properly) and what 's "the public history essay". How are these issues are related with {{ POV}} you 've just added? [1] Cinadon 36 10:34, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
plz read here /info/en/?search=Talk:May_Days#Not_historical It's not only my view. 3 users we say the same. Also a 4th user says similar things Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 10:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I really can't comprehend what are you are saying. Is this section a continuation of the above discussion? From your quotation I cant see Payne discussing the May Days. (please link to google books so I can read the paragraph/chapter) Cinadon 36 11:11, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
See the previous paragraph. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 11:19, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
When historians have a different view.
Can we add what happened or for some reason Orwell's memoirs are more accurate than the most prominent historians? I had written the Greek article. Please have a look in my bibliography. Do you think it is better than Orwell's writings or not? Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 16:21, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Is Homage to Catalonia a fictional book or memoirs. (to start with) Cinadon 36 21:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
It comes as a surprise to me. I have never seen it in another article. Primary sources are used to state facts. Also, Graham does not "heavily criticizes Orwell". Maybe not even Preston. He identifies some fallacies, but, as he writes: "Homage to Catalonia belongs in any list of important books on the Spanish civil war. It has informed opinion in the English-speaking world about the war – providing the inspiration, for instance, for Ken Loach’s Land and Freedom" Cinadon 36 23:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
What a joke!!
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/may/06/george-orwell-homage-to-catalonia-account-spanish-civil-war-wrong
George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia is included in most lists of important books on the Spanish Civil War, despite being simply a vivid eye-witness account of just two fragments of the war. It demonstrates little understanding of Spanish or Catalan politics and does not present a reliable analysis of the broader politics of the war and particularly of its international determinants. Its underlying notion that the crushing of revolution in Barcelona would contribute to the eventual Republican defeat makes it too easy to forget the contributions to that defeat made by Franco, Hitler, Mussolini, and the pusillanimous self-interest of the British, French and American governments. Based on the partisan views of anarchist and POUM comrades, and misled by ignorance of the wider context, Orwell's analysis and prediction are misleading. This article aims to raise awareness that the views expressed in his book, based on insufficient information and prior prejudice, are often mistaken. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14753820.2018.1388550
Many more reasons, indeed, than met the eye of the events’ most famous chronicler, George Orwell, who, it should be borne in mind, read neither Spanish nor Catalan. In Homage to Catalonia, he rightly identified the fighting as having to do with conflicting models of how to organize Republican society and politics. But he exaggerates the role played by both Catalan and Spanish communists. Untenable too is his conspiracy theory – that the May Days were somehow deliberately provoked. In fact, social and political tensions had been building up in the city since the beginning of 1937. The Catalan government, of which the communists were a part, but only a part, had gradually been restoring to itself the executive powers it had lost to workers and trade union committees in the aftermath of the military coup. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 23:42, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
It is common for authors to point to fallacies and strong points of previous authors. That does not constitute of "heavy criticism". Graham says he believed that May Days were a consp. theory. Ok, that is criticism to an opinion of him. She also says that he is the "most famous chronicler". Also "he rightly identified the fighting as having to do with conflicting models of how to organize Republican society and politics" The same token goes on Preston as well, but I am (and I was ok with the phases "heavily criticizes Orwell") Oh! and you didnt address my first concern. Lastly, pls use brackets properly. Cinadon 36 00:03, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
The aim the same: CENSHORSHIP. So you reverted me 3 times. You went to ANI and now you are (and was!!!!!!!!) with that. This is a bad joke.
Αντικαθεστωτικός (
talk)
00:36, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia article:
Historian:
But Wikipedia voice is based on anonymous users!!!!!
I was reverted cause i just add
citation needed
Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 09:18, 30 December 1984 (UTC)
First of all, you were not reverted for adding a template. Second, mostly anonymous users contribute to WP (like you and me who do not disclose our names). Third, when you add the opinion of a historian, you have to give full citation to his work. Forth, it seems that historian opinion is taken out of context. He/She talks about the climax of confrontation. Anyway, pls provide proper citation and we will take it from there. Cinadon 36 09:36, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
1.So why don't put it back if u are honest?
2. I am an anonymous user too who writes based on historians and I provide full citations not writing essays without citation from my mind.
3.4. You ask for a full citation but you have already concluded that "that historian opinion is taken out of context." How can you do this?? Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 09:53, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
1. Pls refrain from questioning my integrity, 2. You didnt do it this time 3.4. I wrote "it seems" coz you only provided a small sentence. Cinadon 36 11:08, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
@ Αντικαθεστωτικός: [2] Can you pls provide the quotation from the Guardian article making that claim? Thanks. Cinadon 36 09:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
The May events were about removing revolutionary obstacles to the war’s efficient conduct. He acknowledged this in his 1942 essay Looking Back on the Spanish War: “The Trotskyist thesis that the war could have been won if the revolution had not been sabotaged was probably false. To nationalise factories, demolish churches, and issue revolutionary manifestos would not have made the armies more efficient. The fascists won because they were the stronger; they had modern arms and the others hadn’t.”
Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 09:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
There is a distance among what you inserted at the article, which is quite vague by itself, and what is stated at the Guardian's article. Pls revert and I will help you rephrase. Cinadon 36 11:30, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Also, i feels that the sentence added is about Orwell, not May Days per se. Cinadon 36 13:12, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
what's now your argument? It is very clear what the historian had written "'The May events were about removing revolutionary obstacles to the war’s efficient conduct. He acknowledged this ".
Αντικαθεστωτικός (
talk)
13:35, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is it just me or is there something fundamentally wrong with the following sentece I have removed from the article:
She described the street-fighting in the context of a fascist anarchotrotskyist putsch ("anarchotrotskyist" is meant to include the POUM, a faction which the Stalinist Communists accused of being Trotskyist but which Trotsky himself repeatedly attacked. POUM itself resented Trotskyism, and never defined itself in relation to him.)
Please return it if it's OK. Thanks. -- Technopat ( talk) 03:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
I may be misunderstanding all the anagrams but doesn't Orwell's Homage to Catalonia support the statement that "... under the influence of the Stalinist Communist Party of Spain and its local wing, the Unified Socialist Party of Catalonia (PSUC)" and should perhaps be cited as such? -- TBWRB ( talk) 08:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
The term Stalinist in slanderous and pejorative. You can say USSR-backed or Sovietphile, but the term Stalinist has been repeatedly rejected by Marxist-Leninists. If you don't change this, I will. Spartacus Marat ( talk)
One of the few resources of this article is the propaganda work "Black Book of Communism". Not a surprise Trotskyist and anti-communists teaming together again. -- Martxel Alexander ( talk) 23:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Also the term 'revolution' is a huge POV. Anarchists and poum thought that they were doing a revolution. But i think this is a fringe anarchist friendly theory.
Major historian's views isn't this. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 07:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
If someone wants to laugh they can compare how the article was before the translated article was fully restored. Even changing the text in Hugh Thomas references, he should be an Anarchist now. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=May_Days&diff=903687988&oldid=886482796&diffmode=source Buen Ciudadano ( talk) 03:51, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm no expert on military history but were Stormtroopers really involved in this? Maybe it's just a term and I'm being stupid... Skunkman3118 ( talk) 16:17, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm uncertain they were involved, but stormtroopers is mostly a german-derived word for assault troopers (being the french-derived term) so it's a possibility given that the setup was still largely WW1 with slightly better kit. 216.252.75.220 ( talk) 13:59, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
The retarded Trotskyists and anti-communists that made this article use that term for the Assault Guard. I'm translating the Spanish article that is more complete than this Church pamphlet. If somebody does not understand something once I end with the translation, please say it here. -- Martxel Alexander ( talk) 03:28, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
This reads more like a Marxist interpretation of what happened vice neutral historical analysis. If someone has the time and effort it would be useful to delete/revise statements like "wanted to defend bourgeois capital of UK and France" or all the references in general to bourgeois, Trotskyist, Stalinist, etc. unless supported by some form of impartial documentation. As it stands, this would not be accepted by even a high school level history teacher due to the massive amount of unsourced comments and overwhelming amount of unsupported Marxist class analysis in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.208.116.108 ( talk) 02:45, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Yeah exactly. But anarchist POV is everywhere in en:wp. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 07:34, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
For that reasons i have put the tempalte of neutrallity.
Αντικαθεστωτικός (
talk)
11:14, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
The arguments here do not support the claim that there is lack of neutrality. Cinadon 36 18:55, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
The article was already restored. It is not the same than when it was edited by an Anarchist from London (according to his IP). It is exactly the Spanish article in fact, with only the "Popular Culture" part remaining. Buen Ciudadano ( talk) 08:31, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
From Stanley G. Payne publications of Yale:
This is a historian view about the facts from a anti-communist prospective. Not an POV anarchist fringe theory as this article promote. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 09:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Can you please elaborate? What 's the historians view (please cite properly) and what 's "the public history essay". How are these issues are related with {{ POV}} you 've just added? [1] Cinadon 36 10:34, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
plz read here /info/en/?search=Talk:May_Days#Not_historical It's not only my view. 3 users we say the same. Also a 4th user says similar things Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 10:36, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
I really can't comprehend what are you are saying. Is this section a continuation of the above discussion? From your quotation I cant see Payne discussing the May Days. (please link to google books so I can read the paragraph/chapter) Cinadon 36 11:11, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
See the previous paragraph. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 11:19, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
When historians have a different view.
Can we add what happened or for some reason Orwell's memoirs are more accurate than the most prominent historians? I had written the Greek article. Please have a look in my bibliography. Do you think it is better than Orwell's writings or not? Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 16:21, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Is Homage to Catalonia a fictional book or memoirs. (to start with) Cinadon 36 21:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
It comes as a surprise to me. I have never seen it in another article. Primary sources are used to state facts. Also, Graham does not "heavily criticizes Orwell". Maybe not even Preston. He identifies some fallacies, but, as he writes: "Homage to Catalonia belongs in any list of important books on the Spanish civil war. It has informed opinion in the English-speaking world about the war – providing the inspiration, for instance, for Ken Loach’s Land and Freedom" Cinadon 36 23:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
What a joke!!
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/may/06/george-orwell-homage-to-catalonia-account-spanish-civil-war-wrong
George Orwell's Homage to Catalonia is included in most lists of important books on the Spanish Civil War, despite being simply a vivid eye-witness account of just two fragments of the war. It demonstrates little understanding of Spanish or Catalan politics and does not present a reliable analysis of the broader politics of the war and particularly of its international determinants. Its underlying notion that the crushing of revolution in Barcelona would contribute to the eventual Republican defeat makes it too easy to forget the contributions to that defeat made by Franco, Hitler, Mussolini, and the pusillanimous self-interest of the British, French and American governments. Based on the partisan views of anarchist and POUM comrades, and misled by ignorance of the wider context, Orwell's analysis and prediction are misleading. This article aims to raise awareness that the views expressed in his book, based on insufficient information and prior prejudice, are often mistaken. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14753820.2018.1388550
Many more reasons, indeed, than met the eye of the events’ most famous chronicler, George Orwell, who, it should be borne in mind, read neither Spanish nor Catalan. In Homage to Catalonia, he rightly identified the fighting as having to do with conflicting models of how to organize Republican society and politics. But he exaggerates the role played by both Catalan and Spanish communists. Untenable too is his conspiracy theory – that the May Days were somehow deliberately provoked. In fact, social and political tensions had been building up in the city since the beginning of 1937. The Catalan government, of which the communists were a part, but only a part, had gradually been restoring to itself the executive powers it had lost to workers and trade union committees in the aftermath of the military coup. Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 23:42, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
It is common for authors to point to fallacies and strong points of previous authors. That does not constitute of "heavy criticism". Graham says he believed that May Days were a consp. theory. Ok, that is criticism to an opinion of him. She also says that he is the "most famous chronicler". Also "he rightly identified the fighting as having to do with conflicting models of how to organize Republican society and politics" The same token goes on Preston as well, but I am (and I was ok with the phases "heavily criticizes Orwell") Oh! and you didnt address my first concern. Lastly, pls use brackets properly. Cinadon 36 00:03, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
The aim the same: CENSHORSHIP. So you reverted me 3 times. You went to ANI and now you are (and was!!!!!!!!) with that. This is a bad joke.
Αντικαθεστωτικός (
talk)
00:36, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia article:
Historian:
But Wikipedia voice is based on anonymous users!!!!!
I was reverted cause i just add
citation needed
Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 09:18, 30 December 1984 (UTC)
First of all, you were not reverted for adding a template. Second, mostly anonymous users contribute to WP (like you and me who do not disclose our names). Third, when you add the opinion of a historian, you have to give full citation to his work. Forth, it seems that historian opinion is taken out of context. He/She talks about the climax of confrontation. Anyway, pls provide proper citation and we will take it from there. Cinadon 36 09:36, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
1.So why don't put it back if u are honest?
2. I am an anonymous user too who writes based on historians and I provide full citations not writing essays without citation from my mind.
3.4. You ask for a full citation but you have already concluded that "that historian opinion is taken out of context." How can you do this?? Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 09:53, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
1. Pls refrain from questioning my integrity, 2. You didnt do it this time 3.4. I wrote "it seems" coz you only provided a small sentence. Cinadon 36 11:08, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
@ Αντικαθεστωτικός: [2] Can you pls provide the quotation from the Guardian article making that claim? Thanks. Cinadon 36 09:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
The May events were about removing revolutionary obstacles to the war’s efficient conduct. He acknowledged this in his 1942 essay Looking Back on the Spanish War: “The Trotskyist thesis that the war could have been won if the revolution had not been sabotaged was probably false. To nationalise factories, demolish churches, and issue revolutionary manifestos would not have made the armies more efficient. The fascists won because they were the stronger; they had modern arms and the others hadn’t.”
Αντικαθεστωτικός ( talk) 09:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
There is a distance among what you inserted at the article, which is quite vague by itself, and what is stated at the Guardian's article. Pls revert and I will help you rephrase. Cinadon 36 11:30, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Also, i feels that the sentence added is about Orwell, not May Days per se. Cinadon 36 13:12, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
what's now your argument? It is very clear what the historian had written "'The May events were about removing revolutionary obstacles to the war’s efficient conduct. He acknowledged this ".
Αντικαθεστωτικός (
talk)
13:35, 30 December 2019 (UTC)