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This is a pretty glowing review of Mr. Baucus. Too bad the other Senator from Montana, Conrad Burns, is not treated with the same respect.
Does anyone know where I can find a copy online of the Mike Taylor "gay hairdresser" commercial?
Why did he change his name? -- AW ( talk) 07:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
It is common for a boy to take his stepfather's name: Gerald Ford, Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton are a few examples.
Catherinejarvis (
talk) 14:22, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
If Baucus votes against the party on fundamental party issues such as environment, taxes and gun control (and now by inference from his actions he will on health care too - a public health insurance option was in his party´s presidential candidate election promises) then he cannot by definition be a moderate member of his party. He therefore probably has leanings towards the Republican party. That must make him center right of his party at least and not a moderate as was reported previously.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 15:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
My amendment to center right was deleted for not having a reference but actually there were no references for Baucus being moderate either. I have seen several web sites recently that call for Baucus to be stripped of posts gained from his position in the party given that he often votes against the party line and in line with Republic policies. I cannot give the references immediately but I am sure I can find them if needs be. If anyone adds back moderate, at least provide a reference for that. His record is clearly that he does not follow the party line therefore he has to be at one extreme or other. Center right seems rather generous to him in view of what I have read recently.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 15:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Your "multiple references" come from Googling the terms "Max Baucus Moderate" - which comes back with 41,800 references. Try replacing "Moderate " with "Right" and you get many more hits. Well thats because itis of course a meaningless way to measure these things. I don't really care what his official biography says 'cos he probably wrote it himself. Actions speak louder than words and are more meaningful. Try looking at his voting record.. http://thatsmycongress.com/senate/ which lists members of congress by their record of voting record to see how progressive or regressive they are. His ranking on progressiveness is just 41 out of 60 democrats. I agree that "moderate" "right" and "left" are somewhat arbitrary terms (at least as to where you join the line) but "somewhat right" is probably a fairer description of where he stands based on his record than just "moderate". Would you be happier if I justify the description "somewhat to the right" with reference to his voting record to show that I am not expressing POV? It seems over the top to me. The description is not intended to mark him up or down in any way because every party will have people that are left of center as well as right of center (compared to the moderates in the middle). I think it is just useful for Wikipedia readers to know where in the spectrum he sits.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 19:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I've restructured the entire article into what I believe is better organization. I welcome any comments on further improvements. CriticalChris 18:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and chopped out the offending material. Look, I can't stand Baucus, and living in a country with more-or-less universal healthcare makes me think his stance is ridiculous. This said, BLP doesn't just apply to people you like. Rebecca ( talk) 02:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Twice it seems in recent edits that references to Baucus being a large taker of funding from the health care industry have been deleted from the article, on one occasion that this is is due wo WP:BLP. Given the contextual relevance of this face and the fact that Baucus has been criticised for this because he holds chairmanship of a key sentate committee wrking on health care reform and has spoken against Single Payer Health Care which many believe would enable the government to stand up to powerful industry groups that currently gain from the present funding arrangements.
Baucus is a politician and politicians actions, which affect everyone affected by his decision making, is surely fair game for criticism. I would argue that WP:BLP cannot be applied to the political decisions and political actions of a politician.
I propose that the article should have this material back in place ... and pronto!-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 16:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article—even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out.
So it is quite ok to reveal the allegation if it is true. This is whar Ed Schults, an NSNBC anchor says
And it should be noted tonight that Senator Max Baucus has taken more money from pharmaceutical companies and health insurance industry folks than any other Democrat in the congress. Sebator Baucus got 183 000 dollars from health insurance companies and 229 000 dollars from drug companies
The numbers are displayed and there is a reference at the bottom of the screen though it is too small for me to read. I would say that this is enough to warrant a mention in the article, but I agree it would be good to access the same source that MSNBC were referencing.
Unless you can come up with a better explanation for excluding this MSNBC statement then I would hold that the text and the reference should go back in because it is highly relevant.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 23:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
If the allegations are verifiable, then I have no issue mentioning them in the article. What I do have a problem with is mentioning them in the lead. It's one of the worst cases of undue weight I've ever come across from experienced editors. As I said above, I couldn't agree more with you ideologically about the issue, but you're established editors, and you should know better.
Baucus has been in the Senate for 31 years, and a leading member of it for a fair few of those years. He has dealt with thousands of political issues and voted on thousands of bills. There is no possible ground on which it could be argued that health care reform is so notable among those that it warrants taking up half the lead section. It might be appropriate to have a sentence on his opposition to health-care reform, considering if it's in the news, and on his practices of accepting donations generally if that can be substantiated strongly enough to warrant being in the lead. Rebecca ( talk) 04:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
To editor "Will Beback" I'm reverting your efforts to censor this reference to Baucus in The Onion humor/culture newspaper. The pop culture reference is well sourced, obviously satire, but that doesn't make it any less notable or worthy of deletion. Now, if one were attempting to place the Onion satire piece into the body of the article where the other serious, legitimate policy analysis and criticisms are found, that would be a different story. In any event, Baucus is clearly a public figure, and has no reasonable expectations of shielding from even the harshest of ridicule and criticism. Remember, WP:NOTCENSORED means something here. Should we open an WP:RFC on this issue? CriticalChris 19:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a certain suspicion about the subsection, "Conflict of interest charges" since it looks like a WP:CRITicism dumping ground. However, I do think the general topic is notable to address, and the title seems relatively neutral as a description of what it describes. However, the section is grossly, grossly WP:UNDUE length. We have nine paragraphs about Baucus' alleged conflict of interest on the health insurance legislation, currently pending. That's more than we have on his policy/action on Iraq, Israel, trade, "economic issues", voting rights, gun rights, gay rights, etc. combined. LotLE× talk 22:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it would be worthwhile to spend a brief paragraph in the introduction stating Baucus' positions on the main issues he has been involved with. The single short sentence (pro-choice and pro-gun rights) is too little, and indeed it tends to overemphasize those issues over others. However, something like three moderately long sentences explaining the half dozen or so issues the Senator has been most involved with is common for politician articles, and would give readers a good overview in the lead. LotLE× talk 20:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
To whoever wonders why I deleted the line about Baucus' fears of a trade war, let me explain that I deleted it because it is more or less original research. No one knows what Baucus fears except Baucus himself, so it is inappropriate to present speculation as to his state of mind as fact. This is a common problem on wikipedia, and I will delete it wherever I find it. Treybien 21:32 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Beware: This article is being referenced with youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Y9X5ggxzA not proven correct/not fake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.103.18 ( talk • contribs) 04:12, 28 December 2009
The Politico link that footnotes the "intoxicated speech" reference does not definitively claim that Baucus was inebriated and that line should be removed from the Personal section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.162.252.10 ( talk) 21:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
shouldnt there be something about the time he showed up apparently drunk on the senate floor for debate? Crd721 ( talk) 01:35, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree... he's obviously drunk. too controversial? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.165.51 ( talk) 06:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Could someone at least look at the section titled "Voting Rights" and attempt to explain why that section appears to be more of of a monologue someone wrote to support their viewpoint on the DC voting rights issue than anything remotely having to due with Baucus? 24.166.190.216 ( talk) 06:39, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
This article starts off well; the lead and background on his early life are both good. However, the majority of the article after that seems to be selective and slanted. The information on Jack Abramoff can stay, but it should not be above his committee assignments or policy stands. It is a rather isolated incident in which there was no wrongdoing, yet it is placed up front. The long section on his girlfriend and a federal judgeship comes next, and is mentioned again in the personal section. The inclusion of this information is fine; the placement above his career achievements seems unwarranted. There are many sections on his votes, yet each one is unconnected to the others and it reads like editors simply put in whatever they thought might be embarrassing or controversial. This is a man who has been in Congress 38 years, so he votes on individual bills are relevant only as they connect to the larger picture. After all, Senator Baucus has voted five or ten thousand times. Picking ten or twenty votes to highlight hints of an agenda. Where he stands on a particular issue or vote is less important than the fact he has served so long and done so much. I invite other editors to consider this and add their thoughts. Catherinejarvis ( talk) 14:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
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This is a pretty glowing review of Mr. Baucus. Too bad the other Senator from Montana, Conrad Burns, is not treated with the same respect.
Does anyone know where I can find a copy online of the Mike Taylor "gay hairdresser" commercial?
Why did he change his name? -- AW ( talk) 07:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
It is common for a boy to take his stepfather's name: Gerald Ford, Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton are a few examples.
Catherinejarvis (
talk) 14:22, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
If Baucus votes against the party on fundamental party issues such as environment, taxes and gun control (and now by inference from his actions he will on health care too - a public health insurance option was in his party´s presidential candidate election promises) then he cannot by definition be a moderate member of his party. He therefore probably has leanings towards the Republican party. That must make him center right of his party at least and not a moderate as was reported previously.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 15:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
My amendment to center right was deleted for not having a reference but actually there were no references for Baucus being moderate either. I have seen several web sites recently that call for Baucus to be stripped of posts gained from his position in the party given that he often votes against the party line and in line with Republic policies. I cannot give the references immediately but I am sure I can find them if needs be. If anyone adds back moderate, at least provide a reference for that. His record is clearly that he does not follow the party line therefore he has to be at one extreme or other. Center right seems rather generous to him in view of what I have read recently.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 15:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Your "multiple references" come from Googling the terms "Max Baucus Moderate" - which comes back with 41,800 references. Try replacing "Moderate " with "Right" and you get many more hits. Well thats because itis of course a meaningless way to measure these things. I don't really care what his official biography says 'cos he probably wrote it himself. Actions speak louder than words and are more meaningful. Try looking at his voting record.. http://thatsmycongress.com/senate/ which lists members of congress by their record of voting record to see how progressive or regressive they are. His ranking on progressiveness is just 41 out of 60 democrats. I agree that "moderate" "right" and "left" are somewhat arbitrary terms (at least as to where you join the line) but "somewhat right" is probably a fairer description of where he stands based on his record than just "moderate". Would you be happier if I justify the description "somewhat to the right" with reference to his voting record to show that I am not expressing POV? It seems over the top to me. The description is not intended to mark him up or down in any way because every party will have people that are left of center as well as right of center (compared to the moderates in the middle). I think it is just useful for Wikipedia readers to know where in the spectrum he sits.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 19:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I've restructured the entire article into what I believe is better organization. I welcome any comments on further improvements. CriticalChris 18:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and chopped out the offending material. Look, I can't stand Baucus, and living in a country with more-or-less universal healthcare makes me think his stance is ridiculous. This said, BLP doesn't just apply to people you like. Rebecca ( talk) 02:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Twice it seems in recent edits that references to Baucus being a large taker of funding from the health care industry have been deleted from the article, on one occasion that this is is due wo WP:BLP. Given the contextual relevance of this face and the fact that Baucus has been criticised for this because he holds chairmanship of a key sentate committee wrking on health care reform and has spoken against Single Payer Health Care which many believe would enable the government to stand up to powerful industry groups that currently gain from the present funding arrangements.
Baucus is a politician and politicians actions, which affect everyone affected by his decision making, is surely fair game for criticism. I would argue that WP:BLP cannot be applied to the political decisions and political actions of a politician.
I propose that the article should have this material back in place ... and pronto!-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 16:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article—even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out.
So it is quite ok to reveal the allegation if it is true. This is whar Ed Schults, an NSNBC anchor says
And it should be noted tonight that Senator Max Baucus has taken more money from pharmaceutical companies and health insurance industry folks than any other Democrat in the congress. Sebator Baucus got 183 000 dollars from health insurance companies and 229 000 dollars from drug companies
The numbers are displayed and there is a reference at the bottom of the screen though it is too small for me to read. I would say that this is enough to warrant a mention in the article, but I agree it would be good to access the same source that MSNBC were referencing.
Unless you can come up with a better explanation for excluding this MSNBC statement then I would hold that the text and the reference should go back in because it is highly relevant.-- Hauskalainen ( talk) 23:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
If the allegations are verifiable, then I have no issue mentioning them in the article. What I do have a problem with is mentioning them in the lead. It's one of the worst cases of undue weight I've ever come across from experienced editors. As I said above, I couldn't agree more with you ideologically about the issue, but you're established editors, and you should know better.
Baucus has been in the Senate for 31 years, and a leading member of it for a fair few of those years. He has dealt with thousands of political issues and voted on thousands of bills. There is no possible ground on which it could be argued that health care reform is so notable among those that it warrants taking up half the lead section. It might be appropriate to have a sentence on his opposition to health-care reform, considering if it's in the news, and on his practices of accepting donations generally if that can be substantiated strongly enough to warrant being in the lead. Rebecca ( talk) 04:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
To editor "Will Beback" I'm reverting your efforts to censor this reference to Baucus in The Onion humor/culture newspaper. The pop culture reference is well sourced, obviously satire, but that doesn't make it any less notable or worthy of deletion. Now, if one were attempting to place the Onion satire piece into the body of the article where the other serious, legitimate policy analysis and criticisms are found, that would be a different story. In any event, Baucus is clearly a public figure, and has no reasonable expectations of shielding from even the harshest of ridicule and criticism. Remember, WP:NOTCENSORED means something here. Should we open an WP:RFC on this issue? CriticalChris 19:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a certain suspicion about the subsection, "Conflict of interest charges" since it looks like a WP:CRITicism dumping ground. However, I do think the general topic is notable to address, and the title seems relatively neutral as a description of what it describes. However, the section is grossly, grossly WP:UNDUE length. We have nine paragraphs about Baucus' alleged conflict of interest on the health insurance legislation, currently pending. That's more than we have on his policy/action on Iraq, Israel, trade, "economic issues", voting rights, gun rights, gay rights, etc. combined. LotLE× talk 22:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I think it would be worthwhile to spend a brief paragraph in the introduction stating Baucus' positions on the main issues he has been involved with. The single short sentence (pro-choice and pro-gun rights) is too little, and indeed it tends to overemphasize those issues over others. However, something like three moderately long sentences explaining the half dozen or so issues the Senator has been most involved with is common for politician articles, and would give readers a good overview in the lead. LotLE× talk 20:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
To whoever wonders why I deleted the line about Baucus' fears of a trade war, let me explain that I deleted it because it is more or less original research. No one knows what Baucus fears except Baucus himself, so it is inappropriate to present speculation as to his state of mind as fact. This is a common problem on wikipedia, and I will delete it wherever I find it. Treybien 21:32 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Beware: This article is being referenced with youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Y9X5ggxzA not proven correct/not fake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.103.18 ( talk • contribs) 04:12, 28 December 2009
The Politico link that footnotes the "intoxicated speech" reference does not definitively claim that Baucus was inebriated and that line should be removed from the Personal section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.162.252.10 ( talk) 21:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
shouldnt there be something about the time he showed up apparently drunk on the senate floor for debate? Crd721 ( talk) 01:35, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree... he's obviously drunk. too controversial? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.165.51 ( talk) 06:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Could someone at least look at the section titled "Voting Rights" and attempt to explain why that section appears to be more of of a monologue someone wrote to support their viewpoint on the DC voting rights issue than anything remotely having to due with Baucus? 24.166.190.216 ( talk) 06:39, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
This article starts off well; the lead and background on his early life are both good. However, the majority of the article after that seems to be selective and slanted. The information on Jack Abramoff can stay, but it should not be above his committee assignments or policy stands. It is a rather isolated incident in which there was no wrongdoing, yet it is placed up front. The long section on his girlfriend and a federal judgeship comes next, and is mentioned again in the personal section. The inclusion of this information is fine; the placement above his career achievements seems unwarranted. There are many sections on his votes, yet each one is unconnected to the others and it reads like editors simply put in whatever they thought might be embarrassing or controversial. This is a man who has been in Congress 38 years, so he votes on individual bills are relevant only as they connect to the larger picture. After all, Senator Baucus has voted five or ten thousand times. Picking ten or twenty votes to highlight hints of an agenda. Where he stands on a particular issue or vote is less important than the fact he has served so long and done so much. I invite other editors to consider this and add their thoughts. Catherinejarvis ( talk) 14:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:22, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Max Baucus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:21, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Max Baucus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
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tag to
http://www.equities.com/news/headline-story?dt=2012-08-25&val=415136&cat=energyWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:51, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Max Baucus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:25, 22 January 2018 (UTC)