the following changes were made and are posted here for discussion:
changed to:
main reasoning: The Israeli movement was created within' Israel and not inside "palestinian territories", let alone that until 1967, there were only Egyptian, Jordanian and Israeli territories and no Palestinian ones. Jaakobou 17:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, they have stopped being active at least 20 years ago. The last publication of the Matzpen journal dates from 1983, and whether a couple of people meet for picnics every couple of years is hardly relevant to the issue of absence of any structures or organised activities Rangreen 17:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
It's actually much more complicated than that, Abu Ali. Hafarperet ("Mole") was a youth group associated with the Revolutionary Communist League, a descendant of Matzpen which was the section in Israel of the reunified Fourth International. Hala HaKibush ("Down with the Occupation") was based in Haifa and Tel-Aviv around former members of various Matzpen splits, but it was never -- particularly in Haifa -- a Matzpen "front". In Jerusalem, with a different balance of political forces, former Matzpen members were active in the Hadash-led Dai la Kibush ("Enough of the Occupation").
Meanwhile, the former Matzpen members, and others, who were actibve in the Socialist Workers League (your archive link doesn't appear to work, by the way) are still organised, as the section in Israel of the International Marxist Tendency. They have a website, in the name of the League for the Defence of Marxism, which appears very similar to the sites of other affiliates of the IMT; regular articles by their comrades appear on the main IMT website.
Other former Matzpen members operate as the Organisation for Democratic Action/Da'am, which is also linked to the Workers Advice Center (Ma'an) and to Challenge magazine.
Yet other former Matzpen members organise as the Committee for One Secular, Democratic Republic in All Palestine, and are involved in the production of Dialogue, "A Political Review of Discussion Between Arab and Jewish Activists of Palestine".
This is only part of the complex and scattered nature of the various descendants of the original Matzpen.
And, despite what Rangreen writes above, I believe that a group calling itself "Matzpen -- the Israeli Socialist Organisation" still exists, and occasionally organises. By the way, the statement I mention is from 2005, not 1995. And although it is indeed an endorsement of a Palestinian statement, the text states that Matzpen "has decided to endorse the call". If a group has a PO Box, and can decide to make decisions and issue them in its name, then as far as I can see the group exists. RolandR 10:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
changed to:
+++
changed to:
main reasoning: (1) the combination "1967 occupation" follows a strictly pro-arab/anti-israeli narrative and neglects the aggressive manouvers done by egypt and other in that period of time - i.e. POV presentation. (2) there are different designations to teritories and the current wiki-agreed designation is "disputed territories" and not "occupied" which is POV.
ابو علي (Abu Ali), please adress the issue of phrasing in the case of "occupation" on wikipedia, (not in a narrative "you will know from direct experience" lingo). Jaakobou 09:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
. This is a perfectly NPOV description of Matzpen's aims. Adding in qualifications such as "so called" and "what they considered to be" is plain editorializing. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Its aim was to create a broad front of people opposed to the occupation and in favour of a de-Zionized Israel, which will form part of a socialist federation of the entire Middle East.
That the West Bank and the Gaza Strip were militarily occupied by Israel in 1967 is not at all in dispute. This is the case according to both international and Israeli law. What is in dispute, is the justification for the occupation and the political future of the territories in question, but that's a separate issue. Rangreen 19:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Image:Israca.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 22:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
What about to add this website to the external links http://www.akiorrbooks.org/ with books were written by Matzpen members?
07:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Rangreen hi, I'd like to receive some explanation from you about the reasons you had erasing the facts about "Matzpen's Case" and not theoretical only side of it's activity. As I think we are at Wikipedia, not at Matzpen's propaganda site. Or you have another opinion?
My one is obvious, so I have to return the article to it's '23:37, 23 July 2009' version till your explanation.
-
Igorp lj (
talk)
21:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I have removed your vandalism. Israeli domestic spy agencies are (1) not a source of political analysis, and (2) they never referred to Matzpen in the source you cite —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rangreen ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC) The section that was removed on "Matzpen's case" is a distortion: neither Matzpen nor any of its members were on trial; the Israeli spy agency did not refer to them on its web site, and its version - in any event - reflects a political agenda rather than 'facts'. Rami Livneh and Meli Lerman were nor part of any espionage network, they were never charged with espionage or with having anything to do with Syria, and they had nothing to do with the Adiv-Turki organization. That they are lumped together in this text, and conflated with Matzpen, is an attempt at smearing all of them rather than offering any facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rangreen ( talk • contribs) 13:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC) By the way, I doubt that a Wikipedia item on Alexander Solzhenitsyn would use a KGB official characterization of him as a traitor and lunatic as a valid source of information about him, or that an item on Nelson Mandela would use the apartheid secret police's definition of him as a communist terrorist as a valid source about his politics or even merely a legitimate opinion... Rangreen ( talk) 13:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
That's the pity to see here at Wikipedia so clear Marxists' love & technique to blame anybody in what itself is responsible for. The best example of real vandalism is your "editing" of 16:02, 26 July 2009 as well as your current one – without any evidence – only
wp:Original Research with so known Marxist’s jargon.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn & KGB?!
I have to remind you that just Marxist's government and its KGB victimizes A. Solzhenitsyn. I may not understand those peoples who either not living in the former USSR or does not read even if a couple of words about what really is the practice of Communist’s power makes such comparisons with Israel. May be you can say me what would be a fate of your “heroes” from Matzpen if they were not in democratic Israel but under Communist’s KGB? It'll be interesting to know your version.
Returning to the subject: before you really bring some references to prove what you wrote – I have to undo your
wp:Original Research. Sorry.
-
Igorp lj (
talk)
20:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
There was no "Matzpen Case", Matzpen was never on trial, nor were any of its members at that time. The sentence about how it was defined by Israeli state security is simply a lie and therefore was removed.
Rangreen (
talk) 05:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
As for the KGB/Shabak/FBI/Boss (bureau of state security in apartheid South Africa), they are all security police forces whose task is to eliminate political dissidents- I wouldn't trust a word they are saying with regard to political opponents, and definietly not use any of them as a historical source: they are paid to lie in the service of the state
Rangreen (
talk)
06:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if Igorp is lying deliberately or simply misunderstands the text. Either way his version distorts the facts. The Shabak report he relies on is not about Matzpen: it does not target the organization, it does not characterize it in any negative way, but refers to it as "an anti-capitalist and anti-Zionist organization", it does not accuse Matzpen of anything, and does not apply terms such as terror, espionage or treason to it (this can be ascertained easily by going to the report itself). None of the people mentioned in the report were members of Matzpen at the time they were arrested, or at the time they supposedly committed offences against state security. The report does refer to some of them as FORMER members of Matzpen, in the past tense. The report is full of inaccuracies and unsupported statements, but that's a different story. To present it as evidence of "the Matzpen case" is simply a fabrication (whether out of malice or ignorance is not really important).
Rangreen (
talk)
10:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
“I don't know if Igorp is lying deliberately or simply misunderstands the text”. - how it’s boring with you.
That’s the pity but I’ve already had to write above, that methods of Rangreen are so similar to such ones of the KGB he mentioned there.
So I can just repeat his sentence but with true name and some addition: “I don't know if Rangreen is lying deliberately or simply misunderstands the text”. Or simply attempts to whitewash the dirt deals of Matzpenists and to use Wikipedia as propaganda site.
And it’s so interesting to see how he tries to come unscrewed, changing his versions
By the way, it’ll be useful to place it here
[1] (not only in Article) to let compare just here between Rangreen’s tricks to resolve Matzpen (ISO), Red Front and Revolutionary Communist Alliance, and what really is written NOT only by Shabak:
yet from Rangreen:
versus
In 1970 the organisation started going through a process of ideological and organisational fragmentation, with some members leaving to form new groups, such as …Ma'avak (Revolutionary Communist Alliance), with a Maoist orientation, led by Ilan Albert and Rami Livneh. A further split within the latter organisation saw the formation of the Revolutionary Communist Alliance - Red Front, led by Udi Adiv and Dan Vered…
In March 1973, Turki, Adiv, Vered, Subhi and Kar‘awi were convicted of treason. Turki and Adiv were sentenced to seventeen years imprisonment, Subhi and Kar‘awi were sentenced to fifteen, and Vered was sentenced to ten years. Yehezkel was sentenced to seven years imprisonment and Cooper was sentenced to five. Other members were also sentenced to various periods of imprisonment. Only one of the accused was acquitted due to insufficient proof.
Rami Livne and Mali Lerman were convicted and after appealing, their sentences were eased: Livne was imprisoned for four years and Lerman for two. The publication of the affair in the media on December 8, 1972, caused great shock amongst the public, due to the unprecedented fact of Jewish participation in an Arab network of espionage and terror. The media called the network “the Jewish-Arab espionage and terror network”, although the Jews were only one small cell in a broad Arab network. The effect of this shock was even greater because of its timing: the network was exposed a short time after the Lod Airport Massacre (May 1972), which was carried out by individuals sent by terror organizations, and the murder of the Israeli athletes in the Munich Olympics (September 1972).
The focus of public attention was, of course, focused on the Jewish members of the group, especially Adiv, a former kibbutz member and Vered, a high school teacher and counselor.The comparison between Adiv, who betrayed the country and the late Uri Ilan, an IDF soldier who committed suicide in the Syrian prison in the early 50’s, both from Kibbutz Gan Shemuel, was inevitable. The message that Ilan wrote before committing suicide, “I did not betray,” became a national legend in Israel.
Yet references - NOT from Shabak, but mainly with the same names and facts what Rangreen so tries to hide or to explain from one side only.
In February 1973 Israel was rocked by the political trial of Daud Turki, Udi Adiv and Dan Vered, together with their comrades in the Red Front. The trial marked a milestone in the history of the democratic and anti-Zionist opposition in Israel. It transpired that the Red Front, a splinter offshoot of the Socialist Organization in Israel (Matzpen in the early 1970s) aimed to form a common anti-Zionist military resistance underground for Arabs and Jews inside Israel and link forces with the PLO resistance to Zionism and the Israeli occupation. Some thirty people, Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel, were brought to trial. In the course of the trial it became known that Udi Adiv traveled clandestinely to Damascus via Athens to meet PLO resistance leaders. The case - dubbed by the Hebrew press as the "Syrian spy ring trial" - was to become the most sensational political trial in Israel to date. Udi Adiv and Daud Turki were sentenced to seventeen years imprisonment each. Dan Vered received ten years. Israel and Syria were on the war path and later in the same year, the third Israeli-Arab war to rock the region, the October 1973 war, was launched as a successful joint Egyptian-Syrian attack against Israeli forces in the occupied Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights.
First, Adiv became a member of the Israel Socialist Union, generally called Matzpen (Compass) after its publication. The group is revolutionary socialist and condemns Jewish colonialists for seizing all of Palestine from the Arabs. Two years ago, Adiv formed the Revolutionary Communist Alliance-Red Front, which has world revolution as an ill-defined goal, and enrolled a dozen members. Among them were Dan Vered, 28, a fellow Sabra and a high school math teacher in the small town of Kfar Saba east of Tel Aviv; David Kupfer, 26, a sometime petty thief and burglar as well as a dedicated Communist; and Yeheskel Cohen, 30, an Iraqi-born hotel clerk who speaks six languages.
Last week all four faced life sentences for espionage. Under questioning, Adiv and Vered admitted visiting Damascus, flying there by way of Athens and Cairo on Israeli passports and special papers provided by an Arab contact. Adiv, according to police, told his Syrian hosts as much as he knew about Israeli military bases and weapons and about anti-fedayeen protective devices installed along the borders. He was taken to watch Palestinian guerrilla training and be instructed in sabotage himself. "I taught them much more than they could teach me," he told interrogators haughtily.
Adiv returned home with instructions to pass on further information on Israeli military operations. But Israel's intelligence agency—commonly called Shin Bet from its Hebrew initials—has infiltrated radical groups. And when Shin Bet learned that Adiv's organization was planning a move of some sort, it smashed the ring.
M. Bar-On, head of the youth department of the Jewish Agency and former chief educational officer of the Israeli Army, declared in the March 31, 1970, issue of Yediot Aharonot:
“Matzpen is nothing more than a gang of traitors ... Matzpen is the same as Fatah ... They are the real initiators and planners of the poisonous Fatah propaganda against Israel ... [that is] distributed in Britain and Europe ... Matzpen doesn’t want peace ... they are traitors and self-haters and their only wish is to destroy Israel and its people and to erase their name from under the sun.”
On June 4, 1970, the parliamentary caucus of the ruling Labor Party discussed a motion to that effect presented by Knesset member Matilda Gez. Prime Minister Golda Meir opposed the step, not from any consideration of democratic principle, but because, as she put it, “Matzpen would be more dangerous underground than it is now.” [5]
Under the headline Action Against Israelis Who Slander the State Abroad Will Be Considered, the July 15, 1970, Ma’ariv reported: “The Foreign and Justice Ministers were invited to a meeting of the coalition leadership to make a final decision on the action to be taken. There was general agreement that this phenomenon must be stopped.” The report continued, “Mr. Y. Klinghoffer [member of the Knesset] said that he will press for a law permitting revocation of the citizenship of Israelis who slander the state abroad.”
An especially lamentable aspect of the witch-hunt campaign against dissenters has been the haste with which many “doves,” ‘liberals” and “radicals” have rushed to disassociate themselves from the ISO in order not to further antagonize the Zionist establishment. Indeed, Moshe Sneh, until his death in 1972, leader of the Zionist faction of the Israeli Communist Party, and Uri Avnery, leader of the New Force Party and publisher of Ha’olam Hazeh, led the attack on the ISO...
The ISO is today in the very early stages of the development of such a party. In it are gathering the initial cadres of this party. They are being educated both theoretically and practically, and they are being tested in the experience of actual social struggles as they exist today. They are gaining the experience and the numbers that will make it possible for them to lead the great mass struggles of the future, struggles that will bring about the break with Zionism, the development of mass revolutionary socialist consciousness and the eventual achievement of state power through the victory of socialist revolution in Israel.
The most funny thing is that under these facts though he has to change its “fairy tale” about Matzpen to more real one.
One may compare for example his versions of ‘16:02, 26 July 2009’ and the current one of ‘14:33, 28 July 2009’.
It’s was so hard for him, but now he already “knows to write” even though such semi-truth as :
So I hope we may find compromise concentrating my references and his info under NEW paragraph titled something as “Matzpen & "Syrian spy ring trial" (as it was in Israeli mass-media) :).
To be continued in the Article according to my opponent's willing for cooperation. -
Igorp lj (
talk)
23:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The facts in this case are as follows:
The Red front was created in 1971, as a split from the Revolutionary Communist Alliance - Ma'avak, which itself had left Matzpen in 1970. Many of the Red Front members were arrested in December 1972 (in other words, 2.5 years AFTER they had left Matzpen). Others who were arrested and charged at the same time had never been Matzpen members.
Matzpen as an organization, and its members at the time, were NOT targeted by the Shabak. None of them were arrested, and the Shabak report does not make any reference to them as having been involved in 'espionage' and 'terrorism', as individuals or as a group.
Matzpen and other organizations that split off from it (two factions of Matzpen, Avangard, Ma'avak) were not involved in any of the activities attributed to those arrested at that time, and disagreed with the tactics adopted by them. However, they expressed their solidarity with the detainees, condemned their persecution and prosecution, campaigned against their torture, and denounced the whole affair as a 'show trial'.
Turki, Adiv and their colleagues admitted they went to Damascus but denied working for Syrian military intelligence. Their goal was to establish links with revolutionary Palestinian organizations. Their vision of armed struggle as part of an overall revolutionary campaign was not shared by other Matzpen factions and split-offs. It was based on the notion of joint Jewish-Arab uprising against Zionism, imperialism and Arab reaction, rather than on collaboration with the existing Arab regimes (which they denounced).
Livneh and Lerman were NOT part of the 'network': they were charged with something completely different, having met a Palestinian activist in Jerusalem, and not reporting to the security police about their meeting. They were never charged with espionage, terrorism and the like
I have included a separate section on the trial in the current version, because it is important indeed (though already covered in other wikipedia items). Rangreen ( talk) 06:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
The article refers to " the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's occupation". User:Breein1007 has repeatedly removed a link from this to the article Israeli-occupied territories, claiming that the article and sources refer only to the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, while the linked article refers also to the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. However, the sources do not make this distinction, and Matzpen consistently opposed all Israeli occupation, including that of Sinai prior to 1979. It is both distorting the sources, and deceiving the readers, to argue that Matzpen opposed only the occupation of the areas currently part under control of the Palestinian Authority, and to suppress this link. RolandR ( talk) 21:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
<- I don't understand this edit war. This Matzpen page states 'Immediately after the war, Matzpen called for Israeli withdrawal from the newly occupied territories and against an attempt to impose a political settlement. This statement was published in the first issue of Matzpen published after the war, in July 1967.' (my bold). That seems to be completely unambiguous, no ? Also, does anyone know where exactly the image used in this article came from ? I can't find it and I'd like to see what else they have as the artwork is superb. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:17, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
This is a most bizarre exchange: there is not a single reference or even a hint that Matzpen failed to oppose the occupation of the Golan Heights. From June 1967 onwards, its position (and the position of all its factions) called for withdrawal from ALL the occupied territories without ANY exceptions, ever. Look at any of the publications contained in The Israeli Left Archive (the first item in the External Links section) and you will remain without doubt as to the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.0.242 ( talk) 18:59, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I added the POV-check tag because I belive there are several statementrs that are not neutral. Especially in the Red Front trial section. Bob ( talk) 20:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
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At the bottom of the page under the heading External Links the hyperlink to the documentary "Matzpen" is broken.
I believe that the documentary is now hosted on YouTube @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfcFno2pqJg
92.40.31.85 ( talk) 18:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
In the Origin section, there is a reference which may no longer be accurate:
[... the book] Peace, peace and there is no peace - an English translation was completed in 2009, and the authors are looking for a publisher.
Is this still the case? Worth fixing, if not. Otherwise, it should be "...an English translation was completed in 2009, unpublished, as of August 2016". Volker Siegel ( talk) 13:12, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
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the following changes were made and are posted here for discussion:
changed to:
main reasoning: The Israeli movement was created within' Israel and not inside "palestinian territories", let alone that until 1967, there were only Egyptian, Jordanian and Israeli territories and no Palestinian ones. Jaakobou 17:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, they have stopped being active at least 20 years ago. The last publication of the Matzpen journal dates from 1983, and whether a couple of people meet for picnics every couple of years is hardly relevant to the issue of absence of any structures or organised activities Rangreen 17:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
It's actually much more complicated than that, Abu Ali. Hafarperet ("Mole") was a youth group associated with the Revolutionary Communist League, a descendant of Matzpen which was the section in Israel of the reunified Fourth International. Hala HaKibush ("Down with the Occupation") was based in Haifa and Tel-Aviv around former members of various Matzpen splits, but it was never -- particularly in Haifa -- a Matzpen "front". In Jerusalem, with a different balance of political forces, former Matzpen members were active in the Hadash-led Dai la Kibush ("Enough of the Occupation").
Meanwhile, the former Matzpen members, and others, who were actibve in the Socialist Workers League (your archive link doesn't appear to work, by the way) are still organised, as the section in Israel of the International Marxist Tendency. They have a website, in the name of the League for the Defence of Marxism, which appears very similar to the sites of other affiliates of the IMT; regular articles by their comrades appear on the main IMT website.
Other former Matzpen members operate as the Organisation for Democratic Action/Da'am, which is also linked to the Workers Advice Center (Ma'an) and to Challenge magazine.
Yet other former Matzpen members organise as the Committee for One Secular, Democratic Republic in All Palestine, and are involved in the production of Dialogue, "A Political Review of Discussion Between Arab and Jewish Activists of Palestine".
This is only part of the complex and scattered nature of the various descendants of the original Matzpen.
And, despite what Rangreen writes above, I believe that a group calling itself "Matzpen -- the Israeli Socialist Organisation" still exists, and occasionally organises. By the way, the statement I mention is from 2005, not 1995. And although it is indeed an endorsement of a Palestinian statement, the text states that Matzpen "has decided to endorse the call". If a group has a PO Box, and can decide to make decisions and issue them in its name, then as far as I can see the group exists. RolandR 10:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
changed to:
+++
changed to:
main reasoning: (1) the combination "1967 occupation" follows a strictly pro-arab/anti-israeli narrative and neglects the aggressive manouvers done by egypt and other in that period of time - i.e. POV presentation. (2) there are different designations to teritories and the current wiki-agreed designation is "disputed territories" and not "occupied" which is POV.
ابو علي (Abu Ali), please adress the issue of phrasing in the case of "occupation" on wikipedia, (not in a narrative "you will know from direct experience" lingo). Jaakobou 09:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
. This is a perfectly NPOV description of Matzpen's aims. Adding in qualifications such as "so called" and "what they considered to be" is plain editorializing. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Its aim was to create a broad front of people opposed to the occupation and in favour of a de-Zionized Israel, which will form part of a socialist federation of the entire Middle East.
That the West Bank and the Gaza Strip were militarily occupied by Israel in 1967 is not at all in dispute. This is the case according to both international and Israeli law. What is in dispute, is the justification for the occupation and the political future of the territories in question, but that's a separate issue. Rangreen 19:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Image:Israca.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 22:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
What about to add this website to the external links http://www.akiorrbooks.org/ with books were written by Matzpen members?
07:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Rangreen hi, I'd like to receive some explanation from you about the reasons you had erasing the facts about "Matzpen's Case" and not theoretical only side of it's activity. As I think we are at Wikipedia, not at Matzpen's propaganda site. Or you have another opinion?
My one is obvious, so I have to return the article to it's '23:37, 23 July 2009' version till your explanation.
-
Igorp lj (
talk)
21:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I have removed your vandalism. Israeli domestic spy agencies are (1) not a source of political analysis, and (2) they never referred to Matzpen in the source you cite —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rangreen ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC) The section that was removed on "Matzpen's case" is a distortion: neither Matzpen nor any of its members were on trial; the Israeli spy agency did not refer to them on its web site, and its version - in any event - reflects a political agenda rather than 'facts'. Rami Livneh and Meli Lerman were nor part of any espionage network, they were never charged with espionage or with having anything to do with Syria, and they had nothing to do with the Adiv-Turki organization. That they are lumped together in this text, and conflated with Matzpen, is an attempt at smearing all of them rather than offering any facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rangreen ( talk • contribs) 13:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC) By the way, I doubt that a Wikipedia item on Alexander Solzhenitsyn would use a KGB official characterization of him as a traitor and lunatic as a valid source of information about him, or that an item on Nelson Mandela would use the apartheid secret police's definition of him as a communist terrorist as a valid source about his politics or even merely a legitimate opinion... Rangreen ( talk) 13:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
That's the pity to see here at Wikipedia so clear Marxists' love & technique to blame anybody in what itself is responsible for. The best example of real vandalism is your "editing" of 16:02, 26 July 2009 as well as your current one – without any evidence – only
wp:Original Research with so known Marxist’s jargon.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn & KGB?!
I have to remind you that just Marxist's government and its KGB victimizes A. Solzhenitsyn. I may not understand those peoples who either not living in the former USSR or does not read even if a couple of words about what really is the practice of Communist’s power makes such comparisons with Israel. May be you can say me what would be a fate of your “heroes” from Matzpen if they were not in democratic Israel but under Communist’s KGB? It'll be interesting to know your version.
Returning to the subject: before you really bring some references to prove what you wrote – I have to undo your
wp:Original Research. Sorry.
-
Igorp lj (
talk)
20:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
There was no "Matzpen Case", Matzpen was never on trial, nor were any of its members at that time. The sentence about how it was defined by Israeli state security is simply a lie and therefore was removed.
Rangreen (
talk) 05:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
As for the KGB/Shabak/FBI/Boss (bureau of state security in apartheid South Africa), they are all security police forces whose task is to eliminate political dissidents- I wouldn't trust a word they are saying with regard to political opponents, and definietly not use any of them as a historical source: they are paid to lie in the service of the state
Rangreen (
talk)
06:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if Igorp is lying deliberately or simply misunderstands the text. Either way his version distorts the facts. The Shabak report he relies on is not about Matzpen: it does not target the organization, it does not characterize it in any negative way, but refers to it as "an anti-capitalist and anti-Zionist organization", it does not accuse Matzpen of anything, and does not apply terms such as terror, espionage or treason to it (this can be ascertained easily by going to the report itself). None of the people mentioned in the report were members of Matzpen at the time they were arrested, or at the time they supposedly committed offences against state security. The report does refer to some of them as FORMER members of Matzpen, in the past tense. The report is full of inaccuracies and unsupported statements, but that's a different story. To present it as evidence of "the Matzpen case" is simply a fabrication (whether out of malice or ignorance is not really important).
Rangreen (
talk)
10:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
“I don't know if Igorp is lying deliberately or simply misunderstands the text”. - how it’s boring with you.
That’s the pity but I’ve already had to write above, that methods of Rangreen are so similar to such ones of the KGB he mentioned there.
So I can just repeat his sentence but with true name and some addition: “I don't know if Rangreen is lying deliberately or simply misunderstands the text”. Or simply attempts to whitewash the dirt deals of Matzpenists and to use Wikipedia as propaganda site.
And it’s so interesting to see how he tries to come unscrewed, changing his versions
By the way, it’ll be useful to place it here
[1] (not only in Article) to let compare just here between Rangreen’s tricks to resolve Matzpen (ISO), Red Front and Revolutionary Communist Alliance, and what really is written NOT only by Shabak:
yet from Rangreen:
versus
In 1970 the organisation started going through a process of ideological and organisational fragmentation, with some members leaving to form new groups, such as …Ma'avak (Revolutionary Communist Alliance), with a Maoist orientation, led by Ilan Albert and Rami Livneh. A further split within the latter organisation saw the formation of the Revolutionary Communist Alliance - Red Front, led by Udi Adiv and Dan Vered…
In March 1973, Turki, Adiv, Vered, Subhi and Kar‘awi were convicted of treason. Turki and Adiv were sentenced to seventeen years imprisonment, Subhi and Kar‘awi were sentenced to fifteen, and Vered was sentenced to ten years. Yehezkel was sentenced to seven years imprisonment and Cooper was sentenced to five. Other members were also sentenced to various periods of imprisonment. Only one of the accused was acquitted due to insufficient proof.
Rami Livne and Mali Lerman were convicted and after appealing, their sentences were eased: Livne was imprisoned for four years and Lerman for two. The publication of the affair in the media on December 8, 1972, caused great shock amongst the public, due to the unprecedented fact of Jewish participation in an Arab network of espionage and terror. The media called the network “the Jewish-Arab espionage and terror network”, although the Jews were only one small cell in a broad Arab network. The effect of this shock was even greater because of its timing: the network was exposed a short time after the Lod Airport Massacre (May 1972), which was carried out by individuals sent by terror organizations, and the murder of the Israeli athletes in the Munich Olympics (September 1972).
The focus of public attention was, of course, focused on the Jewish members of the group, especially Adiv, a former kibbutz member and Vered, a high school teacher and counselor.The comparison between Adiv, who betrayed the country and the late Uri Ilan, an IDF soldier who committed suicide in the Syrian prison in the early 50’s, both from Kibbutz Gan Shemuel, was inevitable. The message that Ilan wrote before committing suicide, “I did not betray,” became a national legend in Israel.
Yet references - NOT from Shabak, but mainly with the same names and facts what Rangreen so tries to hide or to explain from one side only.
In February 1973 Israel was rocked by the political trial of Daud Turki, Udi Adiv and Dan Vered, together with their comrades in the Red Front. The trial marked a milestone in the history of the democratic and anti-Zionist opposition in Israel. It transpired that the Red Front, a splinter offshoot of the Socialist Organization in Israel (Matzpen in the early 1970s) aimed to form a common anti-Zionist military resistance underground for Arabs and Jews inside Israel and link forces with the PLO resistance to Zionism and the Israeli occupation. Some thirty people, Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel, were brought to trial. In the course of the trial it became known that Udi Adiv traveled clandestinely to Damascus via Athens to meet PLO resistance leaders. The case - dubbed by the Hebrew press as the "Syrian spy ring trial" - was to become the most sensational political trial in Israel to date. Udi Adiv and Daud Turki were sentenced to seventeen years imprisonment each. Dan Vered received ten years. Israel and Syria were on the war path and later in the same year, the third Israeli-Arab war to rock the region, the October 1973 war, was launched as a successful joint Egyptian-Syrian attack against Israeli forces in the occupied Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights.
First, Adiv became a member of the Israel Socialist Union, generally called Matzpen (Compass) after its publication. The group is revolutionary socialist and condemns Jewish colonialists for seizing all of Palestine from the Arabs. Two years ago, Adiv formed the Revolutionary Communist Alliance-Red Front, which has world revolution as an ill-defined goal, and enrolled a dozen members. Among them were Dan Vered, 28, a fellow Sabra and a high school math teacher in the small town of Kfar Saba east of Tel Aviv; David Kupfer, 26, a sometime petty thief and burglar as well as a dedicated Communist; and Yeheskel Cohen, 30, an Iraqi-born hotel clerk who speaks six languages.
Last week all four faced life sentences for espionage. Under questioning, Adiv and Vered admitted visiting Damascus, flying there by way of Athens and Cairo on Israeli passports and special papers provided by an Arab contact. Adiv, according to police, told his Syrian hosts as much as he knew about Israeli military bases and weapons and about anti-fedayeen protective devices installed along the borders. He was taken to watch Palestinian guerrilla training and be instructed in sabotage himself. "I taught them much more than they could teach me," he told interrogators haughtily.
Adiv returned home with instructions to pass on further information on Israeli military operations. But Israel's intelligence agency—commonly called Shin Bet from its Hebrew initials—has infiltrated radical groups. And when Shin Bet learned that Adiv's organization was planning a move of some sort, it smashed the ring.
M. Bar-On, head of the youth department of the Jewish Agency and former chief educational officer of the Israeli Army, declared in the March 31, 1970, issue of Yediot Aharonot:
“Matzpen is nothing more than a gang of traitors ... Matzpen is the same as Fatah ... They are the real initiators and planners of the poisonous Fatah propaganda against Israel ... [that is] distributed in Britain and Europe ... Matzpen doesn’t want peace ... they are traitors and self-haters and their only wish is to destroy Israel and its people and to erase their name from under the sun.”
On June 4, 1970, the parliamentary caucus of the ruling Labor Party discussed a motion to that effect presented by Knesset member Matilda Gez. Prime Minister Golda Meir opposed the step, not from any consideration of democratic principle, but because, as she put it, “Matzpen would be more dangerous underground than it is now.” [5]
Under the headline Action Against Israelis Who Slander the State Abroad Will Be Considered, the July 15, 1970, Ma’ariv reported: “The Foreign and Justice Ministers were invited to a meeting of the coalition leadership to make a final decision on the action to be taken. There was general agreement that this phenomenon must be stopped.” The report continued, “Mr. Y. Klinghoffer [member of the Knesset] said that he will press for a law permitting revocation of the citizenship of Israelis who slander the state abroad.”
An especially lamentable aspect of the witch-hunt campaign against dissenters has been the haste with which many “doves,” ‘liberals” and “radicals” have rushed to disassociate themselves from the ISO in order not to further antagonize the Zionist establishment. Indeed, Moshe Sneh, until his death in 1972, leader of the Zionist faction of the Israeli Communist Party, and Uri Avnery, leader of the New Force Party and publisher of Ha’olam Hazeh, led the attack on the ISO...
The ISO is today in the very early stages of the development of such a party. In it are gathering the initial cadres of this party. They are being educated both theoretically and practically, and they are being tested in the experience of actual social struggles as they exist today. They are gaining the experience and the numbers that will make it possible for them to lead the great mass struggles of the future, struggles that will bring about the break with Zionism, the development of mass revolutionary socialist consciousness and the eventual achievement of state power through the victory of socialist revolution in Israel.
The most funny thing is that under these facts though he has to change its “fairy tale” about Matzpen to more real one.
One may compare for example his versions of ‘16:02, 26 July 2009’ and the current one of ‘14:33, 28 July 2009’.
It’s was so hard for him, but now he already “knows to write” even though such semi-truth as :
So I hope we may find compromise concentrating my references and his info under NEW paragraph titled something as “Matzpen & "Syrian spy ring trial" (as it was in Israeli mass-media) :).
To be continued in the Article according to my opponent's willing for cooperation. -
Igorp lj (
talk)
23:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The facts in this case are as follows:
The Red front was created in 1971, as a split from the Revolutionary Communist Alliance - Ma'avak, which itself had left Matzpen in 1970. Many of the Red Front members were arrested in December 1972 (in other words, 2.5 years AFTER they had left Matzpen). Others who were arrested and charged at the same time had never been Matzpen members.
Matzpen as an organization, and its members at the time, were NOT targeted by the Shabak. None of them were arrested, and the Shabak report does not make any reference to them as having been involved in 'espionage' and 'terrorism', as individuals or as a group.
Matzpen and other organizations that split off from it (two factions of Matzpen, Avangard, Ma'avak) were not involved in any of the activities attributed to those arrested at that time, and disagreed with the tactics adopted by them. However, they expressed their solidarity with the detainees, condemned their persecution and prosecution, campaigned against their torture, and denounced the whole affair as a 'show trial'.
Turki, Adiv and their colleagues admitted they went to Damascus but denied working for Syrian military intelligence. Their goal was to establish links with revolutionary Palestinian organizations. Their vision of armed struggle as part of an overall revolutionary campaign was not shared by other Matzpen factions and split-offs. It was based on the notion of joint Jewish-Arab uprising against Zionism, imperialism and Arab reaction, rather than on collaboration with the existing Arab regimes (which they denounced).
Livneh and Lerman were NOT part of the 'network': they were charged with something completely different, having met a Palestinian activist in Jerusalem, and not reporting to the security police about their meeting. They were never charged with espionage, terrorism and the like
I have included a separate section on the trial in the current version, because it is important indeed (though already covered in other wikipedia items). Rangreen ( talk) 06:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
The article refers to " the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's occupation". User:Breein1007 has repeatedly removed a link from this to the article Israeli-occupied territories, claiming that the article and sources refer only to the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, while the linked article refers also to the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. However, the sources do not make this distinction, and Matzpen consistently opposed all Israeli occupation, including that of Sinai prior to 1979. It is both distorting the sources, and deceiving the readers, to argue that Matzpen opposed only the occupation of the areas currently part under control of the Palestinian Authority, and to suppress this link. RolandR ( talk) 21:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
<- I don't understand this edit war. This Matzpen page states 'Immediately after the war, Matzpen called for Israeli withdrawal from the newly occupied territories and against an attempt to impose a political settlement. This statement was published in the first issue of Matzpen published after the war, in July 1967.' (my bold). That seems to be completely unambiguous, no ? Also, does anyone know where exactly the image used in this article came from ? I can't find it and I'd like to see what else they have as the artwork is superb. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:17, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
This is a most bizarre exchange: there is not a single reference or even a hint that Matzpen failed to oppose the occupation of the Golan Heights. From June 1967 onwards, its position (and the position of all its factions) called for withdrawal from ALL the occupied territories without ANY exceptions, ever. Look at any of the publications contained in The Israeli Left Archive (the first item in the External Links section) and you will remain without doubt as to the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.0.242 ( talk) 18:59, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I added the POV-check tag because I belive there are several statementrs that are not neutral. Especially in the Red Front trial section. Bob ( talk) 20:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
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At the bottom of the page under the heading External Links the hyperlink to the documentary "Matzpen" is broken.
I believe that the documentary is now hosted on YouTube @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfcFno2pqJg
92.40.31.85 ( talk) 18:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
In the Origin section, there is a reference which may no longer be accurate:
[... the book] Peace, peace and there is no peace - an English translation was completed in 2009, and the authors are looking for a publisher.
Is this still the case? Worth fixing, if not. Otherwise, it should be "...an English translation was completed in 2009, unpublished, as of August 2016". Volker Siegel ( talk) 13:12, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
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