![]() | A fact from Matthias Goethe appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 16 June 2019 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm recording some details here that are not suitable for the article. It is interesting to see the speed with which Goethe moved despite the time required for travel. This relates to Goethe's move from Melbourne.
In October 1868, Harriet Goethe and the three youngest surviving children joined Matthias in Sacramento. Apparently they continued living there, with Heinrich, after Matthias travelled to Mexico City, and after his death. Johnuniq ( talk) 05:06, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Re the "clarification needed" tag on "After training to become a Catholic priest, Goethe joined the Protestant Church and went to England." the sources say:
It looks like "joined the Protestant Church" cannot be clarified and indeed the particular variety of Protestantism was probably not a significant issue to Goethe although he was apparently influenced by Panchaud's teachings. Johnuniq ( talk) 11:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
It would be good to have a photo of Goethe. There is a likely candidate in this German Australia blog. Unfortuantely, no source is specified − can we be confident that this is a photo of Matthias Goethe? Also, the blog gives his name as Göthe. We should continue to prefer the Goethe spelling in the ADB, but we might give Göthe as an alternative spelling, particularly if any more reliable sources have this spelling. Verbcatcher ( talk) 13:15, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Goethe's name has been written in several ways. The Mees reference describes the issue on pages 42 and 44. Goethe's parents could not sign their names. Goethe's father's father spelled his name as Güth while Goethe's father used Göth and Göthe (the ref does not explain how that is compatible with the statement that he could not sign his name). Goethe signed his name in different ways at different times. A record of Goethe's birth (page 43 of ref) shows Goethe (and that the birth was illegitimate, with an update when the parents married on 1 February 1838). The ref states that Goethe used Göthe or Goethe at the time of his marriage in 1849, but later in Melbourne, often signed certificates he issued as Goëthe. The record of Goethe's marriage (page 46 of ref) shows Goethe. Ignoring the history of the grandfather's Güth and the father's Göth, the ref says that Goethe used Goethe and Göthe and Goëthe. As usual, the guideline gives little guidance for what I should write but I will have a stab. Please fix according to taste. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:43, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Verbcatcher: While checking the references after discovering I made a couple of page-number errors, I came to:
That ref does not mention Rhine Province or Prussia. Checking shows I started with Mees p. 42 as the reference, and it verifies everything in the original sentence. Problem: there is new text saying "the son of Heinrich Goethe, a public servant" which is different from what Mees says. I think the situation defies a simple summary for this article and I plan to replace ADB with Mees and omit the father's occupation. Here is what page 42 of Mees says:
Mees goes on to say that the cemetry has many Göth and Güth names, but Göthe or Goethe are not known as those of local families. I'm writing all this to let you know my reasoning, but the detail is a record for my benefit in case I need to think about this in the future. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:52, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Matthias Goethe was born on 29 March 1827 at Neuendorf (now part of Koblenz, Germany), Rhine Province, Prussia, the eldest child of Johann Heinrich Göth and Anna Katharina Günther, who also had two daughters. Matthias' father was a labourer and a raftsman.[Ref Mees] Goethe was baptised as a Roman Catholic.[Ref Mees] After training to become a Catholic priest, he became a Protestant and went to England.[Ref Hebart] Goethe married Harriet Alice Wells on 9 June 1849 in England after meeting her in Brussels.[Ref Mees]. |
who also had two daughters. Matthias' father was a labourer and a raftsman." with other consequent rewording. I suppose mentioning the daughters is ok although it does not add much to knowledge about Matthias. There is a minor problem about "a labourer and a raftsman" namely that it suggests he was never anything else. How about "
Matthias's father was a labourer in 1827."?
@ Verbcatcher: I tried your edit, with modifications. Per the notice at the top, I have nominated the article at DYK and that requires a reference on each sentence containing a fact in the hook. Therefore I tried to stuff everything into one sentence to avoid unduly repeating the reference. I couldn't make it work when also mentioning the two sisters. You might have an idea on that. Johnuniq ( talk) 10:17, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
Matthias Goethe#Mexico City has a reference for "was its first pastor." Yesterday I noticed that I used the wrong reference for that due to confusion in my notes. I haven't had time to investigate and fix the issue so am just noting that I will fix it in the next day or two. Johnuniq ( talk) 08:06, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
The claim founded Lutheran congregations in three continents does not stand up because Sacramento and Mexico City are both in North America, see the Mexico article. I think the DYK tagline will have to be changed − ...in three countries would be accurate, but less punchy. Verbcatcher ( talk) 02:35, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
@
SarahSV: Do you have time to look at a problem here? The top of this talk currently shows the DYK nomination with a hook that includes "founded Lutheran congregations in three continents
". That is based on the source "His subsequent founding of three Lutheran congregations on three continents suggests..." (Mees p. 45). As pointed out by Verbcatcher, "continents" is incorrect and cannot be used for the hook. Would it be acceptable to change continents to countries while keeping the source above? Is that original research or is it a sky-is-blue correction? Here are some sources that might be used for rewordings of the hook (ADB = Australian Dictionary of Biography, cited as Tarnay in the article):
Ideas needed! Perhaps I'm overthinking it because I'm looking for one source which covers everything. I guess the hook of "three countries" or "Melbourne, Sacramento and Mexico City" could be justified by adding needed references from above in the appropriate section? The hook might say established rather than founded? Johnuniq ( talk) 07:24, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from Matthias Goethe appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 16 June 2019 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I'm recording some details here that are not suitable for the article. It is interesting to see the speed with which Goethe moved despite the time required for travel. This relates to Goethe's move from Melbourne.
In October 1868, Harriet Goethe and the three youngest surviving children joined Matthias in Sacramento. Apparently they continued living there, with Heinrich, after Matthias travelled to Mexico City, and after his death. Johnuniq ( talk) 05:06, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Re the "clarification needed" tag on "After training to become a Catholic priest, Goethe joined the Protestant Church and went to England." the sources say:
It looks like "joined the Protestant Church" cannot be clarified and indeed the particular variety of Protestantism was probably not a significant issue to Goethe although he was apparently influenced by Panchaud's teachings. Johnuniq ( talk) 11:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
It would be good to have a photo of Goethe. There is a likely candidate in this German Australia blog. Unfortuantely, no source is specified − can we be confident that this is a photo of Matthias Goethe? Also, the blog gives his name as Göthe. We should continue to prefer the Goethe spelling in the ADB, but we might give Göthe as an alternative spelling, particularly if any more reliable sources have this spelling. Verbcatcher ( talk) 13:15, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Goethe's name has been written in several ways. The Mees reference describes the issue on pages 42 and 44. Goethe's parents could not sign their names. Goethe's father's father spelled his name as Güth while Goethe's father used Göth and Göthe (the ref does not explain how that is compatible with the statement that he could not sign his name). Goethe signed his name in different ways at different times. A record of Goethe's birth (page 43 of ref) shows Goethe (and that the birth was illegitimate, with an update when the parents married on 1 February 1838). The ref states that Goethe used Göthe or Goethe at the time of his marriage in 1849, but later in Melbourne, often signed certificates he issued as Goëthe. The record of Goethe's marriage (page 46 of ref) shows Goethe. Ignoring the history of the grandfather's Güth and the father's Göth, the ref says that Goethe used Goethe and Göthe and Goëthe. As usual, the guideline gives little guidance for what I should write but I will have a stab. Please fix according to taste. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:43, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
@ Verbcatcher: While checking the references after discovering I made a couple of page-number errors, I came to:
That ref does not mention Rhine Province or Prussia. Checking shows I started with Mees p. 42 as the reference, and it verifies everything in the original sentence. Problem: there is new text saying "the son of Heinrich Goethe, a public servant" which is different from what Mees says. I think the situation defies a simple summary for this article and I plan to replace ADB with Mees and omit the father's occupation. Here is what page 42 of Mees says:
Mees goes on to say that the cemetry has many Göth and Güth names, but Göthe or Goethe are not known as those of local families. I'm writing all this to let you know my reasoning, but the detail is a record for my benefit in case I need to think about this in the future. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:52, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Matthias Goethe was born on 29 March 1827 at Neuendorf (now part of Koblenz, Germany), Rhine Province, Prussia, the eldest child of Johann Heinrich Göth and Anna Katharina Günther, who also had two daughters. Matthias' father was a labourer and a raftsman.[Ref Mees] Goethe was baptised as a Roman Catholic.[Ref Mees] After training to become a Catholic priest, he became a Protestant and went to England.[Ref Hebart] Goethe married Harriet Alice Wells on 9 June 1849 in England after meeting her in Brussels.[Ref Mees]. |
who also had two daughters. Matthias' father was a labourer and a raftsman." with other consequent rewording. I suppose mentioning the daughters is ok although it does not add much to knowledge about Matthias. There is a minor problem about "a labourer and a raftsman" namely that it suggests he was never anything else. How about "
Matthias's father was a labourer in 1827."?
@ Verbcatcher: I tried your edit, with modifications. Per the notice at the top, I have nominated the article at DYK and that requires a reference on each sentence containing a fact in the hook. Therefore I tried to stuff everything into one sentence to avoid unduly repeating the reference. I couldn't make it work when also mentioning the two sisters. You might have an idea on that. Johnuniq ( talk) 10:17, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
Matthias Goethe#Mexico City has a reference for "was its first pastor." Yesterday I noticed that I used the wrong reference for that due to confusion in my notes. I haven't had time to investigate and fix the issue so am just noting that I will fix it in the next day or two. Johnuniq ( talk) 08:06, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
The claim founded Lutheran congregations in three continents does not stand up because Sacramento and Mexico City are both in North America, see the Mexico article. I think the DYK tagline will have to be changed − ...in three countries would be accurate, but less punchy. Verbcatcher ( talk) 02:35, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
@
SarahSV: Do you have time to look at a problem here? The top of this talk currently shows the DYK nomination with a hook that includes "founded Lutheran congregations in three continents
". That is based on the source "His subsequent founding of three Lutheran congregations on three continents suggests..." (Mees p. 45). As pointed out by Verbcatcher, "continents" is incorrect and cannot be used for the hook. Would it be acceptable to change continents to countries while keeping the source above? Is that original research or is it a sky-is-blue correction? Here are some sources that might be used for rewordings of the hook (ADB = Australian Dictionary of Biography, cited as Tarnay in the article):
Ideas needed! Perhaps I'm overthinking it because I'm looking for one source which covers everything. I guess the hook of "three countries" or "Melbourne, Sacramento and Mexico City" could be justified by adding needed references from above in the appropriate section? The hook might say established rather than founded? Johnuniq ( talk) 07:24, 14 May 2019 (UTC)