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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
Proposals to merge part of the now-deleted Gynocracy article into the Matriarchy article are under discussion, in the Gynocracy deletion review. The Gynocracy article was about women governing women and men, as described from the past or aspired to for the future. Some parts of the article discussed matriarchy, although none of the historical and aspirational descriptions were limited to mothers as the women governing, all being open to women generally. There are prominent feminist advocates and several secondary sources. Viewing might be possible through a temporary undeletion or by getting a copy from an admin. Thoughts on a merger? Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 19:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
"Gynocracy" is indeed just a synonym of "Matriarchy", apparently coined by people who don't know Greek and thought gyno- was the compositional stem of gyne "woman". The correct term is, of course, gynecocracy, which has been redirecting here since 2007.
In view of your interest in this topic, please comment at Gynocracy DRV if you haven't already. Thanks. -- Uzma Gamal ( talk) 17:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I want to point out that this topic is about feminism, specifically second-wave feminism beginning to end. Apart from early stuff like Bachofen, this is about feminist ideas including feminist archaeology, feminist anthropology and feminist theology. The new section adds the angle of radical feminism as a political ideology aiming for the transformation of modern society into a matriarchy. Also, Nick Levinson, from your contribution I must conclude that you are really incapable of writing coherent encyclopedic prose. All your edits end up as chopped-up and fragmented collections of soundbites littered with footnotes, and so full of quote marks that it is impossible to judge which are scare quotes and which are just intended as citation-quotes.
It is clear that you are interested in this topic and have good references to work with, but we really need to do something about presentation here. -- dab (𒁳) 14:07, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I also suggest that only material that is directly related to matriarchy is inserted here. Your generic "feminist supremacy" stuff may find a home in a section at radical feminism. -- dab (𒁳) 15:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Saying your edits are misguided or problematic doesn't violate "AGF", so I am not sure what you mean. I just don't see why we need three dozen footnotes and "direct" citations in "quotation marks" in order to establish the simple fact that some radical feminists since the 1970s have advocated matriarchy. If your contributions make any statement beyond this, it hasn't become clear so far. If you think prose of the kind of this,
is normal for an encyclopedia I must assume that you yourself were socialized during the most dadaistic phase of 1970s postmodernism. I congratulate you on your ""'just'"". See what I just did? I put quotes around the quotes you put around the quotes set by Chesler. Hilarious, isn't it.
Quoting stuff like Mary Daly's hag-ocracy, "the place we ["[w]omen traveling into feminist time/space"] govern",[58] and of reversing phallocratic rule[59] as part of a serious article is simply funny. Look, we don't write the James Joyce article in prose imitating his style, do we? So why should we make fun of the feminists by writing the matriarchy article in the worst kind of prose hardcore feminism has to offer? -- dab (𒁳) 14:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's work on a mutually acceptable wording, dab, unless you have a source from a separatist or a matriarchalist saying the two phenomena are the same thing or almost the same thing. I have no such source.
The difference between feminist separatism and matriarchy in who gets governed is about half the population and not a single source as presented in my work is separatist. (Some may be elsewhere, at least one is, but not in what I quoted or cited.) Whether, by your edit summary, separatists have to be radicals is irrelevant, because matriarchists are not separatists, unless they happen to be both if, say, they believe an organization within a matriarchal society should also be exclusionary in its membership and thus be separatist. That combined view likely exists but I haven't seen even that in a source.
The See template is shorter but misleading by implying too-close a relationship, and that needs clarifying. If the Distinguish2 template language should not be restored, please propose a clearer distinction.
Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 22:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
sure, feminist separatism is a different idea, I never disputed that, I just linked it as a closely related topic. -- dab (𒁳) 14:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
In response to the section title edit, matriarchy is not always feminist, and so the whole article is not about feminism, although some feminist content appears elsewhere in it.
A requirement that a ruler be a mother denies women reproductive choice, a denial against feminism. Matriarchy as defining who heads a family when not extended into national rule means men are left as national rules (someone has to do it except in anarchy) is relatively not feminist (one could argue that women could be entirely powerless and therefore being allowed to run a family is somewhat feminist but that's a problematic argument).
Matriarchy is feminist in some contexts, but not in all. I was considering the possibility of moving some of the feminist content in other non-lede sections into this section, although I hadn't yet read the article from that organizational perspective, so I don't know if it was feasible yet.
Based on your comment, I'll likely edit the title shortly to emphasize the future, since that's a valid angle not clear simply from "project".
Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 23:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC) (Clarified by editing "in" to "against": 23:11, 16 January 2011 (UTC))
This responds to an opening talk statement that "this topic is about feminism, specifically second-wave feminism beginning to end....".
Topicality as second-wave feminism is being understood backwards. Second-wave feminism partly embraced matriarchy. But, as you acknowledged, at least the articulated concept of matriarchy existed long before second-wave feminism began. Matriarchy is not limited to second-wave feminism or to feminism generally.
Which raises the question about why the feminism sidebar was deleted. If your view is that it is about feminism, and I agree that feminism is strongly relevant, the sidebar belongs. I propose restoring it, so please suggest why it wouldn't belong. (I must have double-clicked and thus missed seeing that you had moved the template two minutes later. Sorry.)
Nick Levinson ( talk) 23:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC) (Struck out erroneous content, retitled topic/section, and explained: 02:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC))
No, but the only people today who believe in "matriarchy" as a historical or future form of human society are second-wave feminists. It may have been a scholarly hypothesis in the 19th century, but it's just a political ideology today. -- dab (𒁳) 14:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
I haven't gotten to editing the radical feminism article. Much may not belong there.
Some of the advocacies came from radical feminists and some from lesbians, but I don't know that they all did, and those are not my criteria in researching the subject outside of Wikipedia and have not been. The subject has been discussed in the context of radical feminism, but no source that I know of defines all such advocacies as radical. Not everything unusual, unrealized, believed in by a minority, or that someone feels threatened by is radical. It has to do with how radical is defined in politics.
Not everyone necessarily wanted to transform the society they were living in into a woman-ruled society. Some advocacies are about creating such societies without giving their addresses, so they could be new or elsewhere and yet just as genuine as advocacy.
If you know of a source from within feminism that collects all of these advocacies as radical feminist, please cite it. An antifeminist claiming that it's radical is not likely reliable, since in general in politics anyone someone disagrees with is deemed extreme or crazy, unless the disagreed-with party happens to be liked for some other reason. However, the talk leading up to the AfD and the AfD itself stated arguments that a single tying-together source did not exist. I did not find such a source either. I want one. And, if it had been found, it might have precluded the AfD in the first place. If you have found one, please post it.
Nick Levinson ( talk) 23:27, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Seriously, are you saying you are a feminist? And actually advocating any of this? Then you should read WP:TIGERS. Your radical feminist literature is primary for this topic. What we should cite is not "anti-feminist" literature, what we should cite is encyclopedic literature that is as unbiased as possible. Also I don't see how you can seriously suggest we should discuss whether feminism advocating "matriarchy" can be anything other than radical. Generally, feminism is about equal rights for women. I would suggest that anything that goes towards the direction of exterminating or subjugating the male sex can safely be considered "radical". I do not wish to waste time over debating the obvious which is why I ask you again to read WP:TIGERS. -- dab (𒁳) 14:29, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether Heide Göttner-Abendroth self-identifies, or is reliably identified, as a radical feminist? Unless she was, I propose to rephrase this article to indicate that feminist advocacy for matriarchies was mainly from radicals (the other key sources named qualify) but not all of it. While Heide is a feminist, I don't know if she's radical. In addition, a woman quoted by reporter Margot Adler is not identified as a radical, although she's likely a feminist. I recall that Catharine MacKinnon, a feminist often described as radical against porn and who worked closely on that issue with radical feminist Andrea Dworkin, in one of her books eschewed the term radical for herself, preferring clear, so describing a feminist as radical because of belief in a particular politics may not be accurate. Thus, my question is about Heide, if anyone knows. Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 04:55, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Why did this return to the feminism section after deletion? I couldn't find a source for it and the one given in the passage has been dead for a couple of months and is not available on archive.org. From what I can find, the organizing of the festivals may be out of date; as such, it may be historically interesting and relevant, but this is weaker than much content that was criticized for being too weakly sourced. This needs a secondary source and it reads like only a passive anticipation if she didn't call for matriarchy. If she called for it, that should be quoted or stated. Also, the academy's name shouldn't need quote marks. Please, let's not have one standard if I edit and delete my content for purportedly not meeting it but other people can edit by a lower standard in the same article and it stays. Here's what needs review, editing, or deletion:
Heide Göttner-Abendroth's "International Academy for Modern Matriarchal Studies and Matriarchal Spirituality" (HAGIA, founded in 1986) organizes "Matriarchal Mystery Festivals" as a "symbolic anticipation of a potential future matriarchal society".<ref>"These festivals present an artistic expression and a symbolic anticipation of a potential future matriarchal society. This is not merely an intellectual process but a holistic one: an authentic new creation of a part of matriarchal culture in this present day, and Heide Göttner-Abendroth regards this spiritual part of her work as complementary to and on par with the scientific part." {{cite web| url=http://www.1000peacewomen.org/typo/index.php?id=14&L=1&WomenID=388| title=Heide Göttner-Abendroth| publisher=1000peacewomen.org| accessdate=2008-11-19}} {{Dead link|date=October 2010|bot=H3llBot}}</ref>
Please discuss. Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 05:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC) (Clarified that "it" referred to "the organizing of the festivals": 05:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC))
Nick, I am glad that after much ado you could find yourself to contributing to this article instead of starting your own. But, I don't know, are you somehow trying an adherent or advocate of this school of thought? And seeing the level of material you keep adding, I find it rather ironic that you should question the relevance of Göttner-Abendroth's HAGIA. Unlike most of your material, Göttner-Abendroth is at least directly relevant to this topic because she is advocating "matriarchy" explicitly. -- dab (𒁳) 14:25, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, a single citation from Cambridge would force the two first paragraphs to be deleted! If Elam was at all times (not only of one of the most developed societies) a matriarchy accordind to Cambridge, so there was someday a woman-goddess-matriarchal society. You again trying to hide this citation and put under some 19th century subtitle --as you can see the first paragrapgh comes exclusevely from a 20th century sources!! So, why aren´t them under 20th century subtitle according to the new attempt to blow up any and all matriarchal footsteps. 187.21.132.250 ( talk) 09:50, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Where six consecutive paragraphs state criticisms, why shouldn't they be given a subsubsection heading as Criticisms? I ask since the last heading to that effect was deleted and it would be useful to know why, or it should be restored. I assume being applicable to one subsection and not necessarily the whole article is not a reason for removing the heading, since its presence would only clarify navigation. Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 04:37, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I was wondering anyone else thought it might be helpful to rearrange those two sections, so that the present 20th century sub-section becomes "first half of 20th century", and most or all of the current "feminism" section comes into "history of the concept" under the sub-head "in second wave feminism". Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:27, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Possibly, one definition of each of these terms is by a way of governing generally associated with the respective gender but nonetheless regardless of who has which sex. The hypothesis of the semantic development would likely be that the characteristic governing style being gender-defined rather than sex-defined and gender being socially constructed whereas sex is biologically determined the governing style and not necessarily sex or gender should be the defining difference between matriarchy and patriarchy. This would not replace genderal definitions but be additional to them. Does anyone have a source to supplement or replace this one? This definitional pair, if valid, is relevant to feminism, perhaps to thealogy, although with secular implications:
"A NEW POLITICAL CONCEPTION: A NEW POLITICS
"Matriarchal spirituality is not an institution in the patriarchal sense but a movement possessing a political essence based on a different conception of politics: it is a politics that oversteps the system. The system that is overstepped is the mechanistic, one-sided, hierarchical system of thought and action of patriarchy. Matriarchal spirituality esteems diversity, change, vitality, and a dynamism that admits of no strictures or incrustation. Matriarchal spirituality respects and promotes the union of the psychic interior—which patriarchal politics obscures—and the physical exterior, one's well-being in the natural environment, which patriarchal religions and spiritualism have always obliterated. Matriarchal spirituality negates and neutralizes all types of dualism used by patriarchal politics throughout the millennia to secure domination. It is irrelevant whether it is a dualism that places the intellectual and spiritual above all else and despises the body—particularly the woman's—and controls women through forcible childbearing and unpaid work (as in all conservative patriarchal systems); or a dualism that seeks salvation in materialism or economic determinism and dismisses as superfluous all spiritual expression—a false parallel to the character of patriarchal religions; or the oppressive 'opiate of the masses' (as in all patriarchal systems influenced by Marxism). All forms of dualism serve the principle 'divide and conquer' and are the antithesis of the radical antiestablishment politics of matriarchal spirituality.7
"7. Cf. ["Charlene"] Spretnak, ed., Politics of Women's Spirituality[": Essays on the Rise of Spiritual Power within the Feminist Movement (Garden City, N.Y.: Anchor Books, 1982)"]."
<ref>Göttner-Abendroth, Heide, trans. Maureen T. Krause, ''The Dancing Goddess: Principles of a Matriarchal Aesthetic'' (Boston, Mass.: Beacon Press, 1st English ed. [1st printing? printing of [19]91?] © 1982 (trans. © 1991) (ISBN 0-8070-6753-9)), p. 229 & n. 7 (trans. of ''Die Tanzende Göttin'') (italics so in original; bracketed insertions per ''id.'', p. 224 n. 5 (citations in n. 5 prob. & in n. 7 perh. provided by translator)).</ref>
Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 09:17, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Some content new to this article was previously in an article that was recently deleted, along with its talk page, on which some debates were held. The Talk and the talk history from the deleted article at some date may be made unavailable except probably to admins and higher and to them perhaps only temporarily. The debates may be useful in the future, so the last substantive revision of the discussions and the edit summaries are in an archive subpage. To my knowledge, no copyright or licensing problem exists or was ever asserted. Nick Levinson ( talk) 15:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
For any editor up to date on the anthropology: The article says "'matriarchy' has mostly fallen out of use for the anthropological description of societies". I assume that in anthropology that applies only to existing societies, not to descriptions of societies including hypothetical ones; or do anthropologists now claim that matriarchy is not just unobserved or unlikely but outright impossible? If the former, I propose to add "existing". Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 04:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Could someone with the source please check the following? The passage, in the Mythology subsection Matriarchy#Greece and Rome, starts out by referring to Ronald Hutton, who, according to Wikipedia, is male, then refers to "her", then refers to Hutton. Perhaps the "her" should be "his" or perhaps someone else was the antecedent and subsequent editing of the article lost a connection.
"Historian Ronald Hutton has argued ... [about] female deities ..., noting ... [certain] religions, in which goddesses played important roles. The changes ... are not considered in her analysis, however, and the late classical myths were dominated by male deities. Hutton has also pointed out that ...."
If you know the answer, please edit the article or post here. Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 10:22, 4 February 2011 (UTC) (Corrected the quotation to reflect recent editing and for grammar: 10:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC))
The following, which I cleaned up, is still confusing, because (a) it appears in the Matrifocality subsection and (b) I don't understand how it's a euphemism, i.e., what's being covered up by this word:
"Some consider the term a euphemism ... and as not being parallel to patriarchy, the latter because it is not defined in the same fashion differing only for gender."
Either this belongs with matriarchy (and away from this subsection) or it should be edited to be about matrifocality and patrifocality, but I don't know which. And both might be true. Certainly, matriarchy and patriarchy are not parallel.
Does anyone know what was intended by this passage? If you do, please edit or post. Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 10:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
(I copied the following from my user page and am replying in substance here:)
IP edits (and I'm afraid the rest) deleted, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jackiestud/Archive, IP has been blocked. If anyone wishes to reconstruct their argument, feel free if you use sources. Dougweller ( talk) 13:06, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
Proposals to merge part of the now-deleted Gynocracy article into the Matriarchy article are under discussion, in the Gynocracy deletion review. The Gynocracy article was about women governing women and men, as described from the past or aspired to for the future. Some parts of the article discussed matriarchy, although none of the historical and aspirational descriptions were limited to mothers as the women governing, all being open to women generally. There are prominent feminist advocates and several secondary sources. Viewing might be possible through a temporary undeletion or by getting a copy from an admin. Thoughts on a merger? Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 19:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
"Gynocracy" is indeed just a synonym of "Matriarchy", apparently coined by people who don't know Greek and thought gyno- was the compositional stem of gyne "woman". The correct term is, of course, gynecocracy, which has been redirecting here since 2007.
In view of your interest in this topic, please comment at Gynocracy DRV if you haven't already. Thanks. -- Uzma Gamal ( talk) 17:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I want to point out that this topic is about feminism, specifically second-wave feminism beginning to end. Apart from early stuff like Bachofen, this is about feminist ideas including feminist archaeology, feminist anthropology and feminist theology. The new section adds the angle of radical feminism as a political ideology aiming for the transformation of modern society into a matriarchy. Also, Nick Levinson, from your contribution I must conclude that you are really incapable of writing coherent encyclopedic prose. All your edits end up as chopped-up and fragmented collections of soundbites littered with footnotes, and so full of quote marks that it is impossible to judge which are scare quotes and which are just intended as citation-quotes.
It is clear that you are interested in this topic and have good references to work with, but we really need to do something about presentation here. -- dab (𒁳) 14:07, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
I also suggest that only material that is directly related to matriarchy is inserted here. Your generic "feminist supremacy" stuff may find a home in a section at radical feminism. -- dab (𒁳) 15:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Saying your edits are misguided or problematic doesn't violate "AGF", so I am not sure what you mean. I just don't see why we need three dozen footnotes and "direct" citations in "quotation marks" in order to establish the simple fact that some radical feminists since the 1970s have advocated matriarchy. If your contributions make any statement beyond this, it hasn't become clear so far. If you think prose of the kind of this,
is normal for an encyclopedia I must assume that you yourself were socialized during the most dadaistic phase of 1970s postmodernism. I congratulate you on your ""'just'"". See what I just did? I put quotes around the quotes you put around the quotes set by Chesler. Hilarious, isn't it.
Quoting stuff like Mary Daly's hag-ocracy, "the place we ["[w]omen traveling into feminist time/space"] govern",[58] and of reversing phallocratic rule[59] as part of a serious article is simply funny. Look, we don't write the James Joyce article in prose imitating his style, do we? So why should we make fun of the feminists by writing the matriarchy article in the worst kind of prose hardcore feminism has to offer? -- dab (𒁳) 14:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's work on a mutually acceptable wording, dab, unless you have a source from a separatist or a matriarchalist saying the two phenomena are the same thing or almost the same thing. I have no such source.
The difference between feminist separatism and matriarchy in who gets governed is about half the population and not a single source as presented in my work is separatist. (Some may be elsewhere, at least one is, but not in what I quoted or cited.) Whether, by your edit summary, separatists have to be radicals is irrelevant, because matriarchists are not separatists, unless they happen to be both if, say, they believe an organization within a matriarchal society should also be exclusionary in its membership and thus be separatist. That combined view likely exists but I haven't seen even that in a source.
The See template is shorter but misleading by implying too-close a relationship, and that needs clarifying. If the Distinguish2 template language should not be restored, please propose a clearer distinction.
Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 22:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
sure, feminist separatism is a different idea, I never disputed that, I just linked it as a closely related topic. -- dab (𒁳) 14:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
In response to the section title edit, matriarchy is not always feminist, and so the whole article is not about feminism, although some feminist content appears elsewhere in it.
A requirement that a ruler be a mother denies women reproductive choice, a denial against feminism. Matriarchy as defining who heads a family when not extended into national rule means men are left as national rules (someone has to do it except in anarchy) is relatively not feminist (one could argue that women could be entirely powerless and therefore being allowed to run a family is somewhat feminist but that's a problematic argument).
Matriarchy is feminist in some contexts, but not in all. I was considering the possibility of moving some of the feminist content in other non-lede sections into this section, although I hadn't yet read the article from that organizational perspective, so I don't know if it was feasible yet.
Based on your comment, I'll likely edit the title shortly to emphasize the future, since that's a valid angle not clear simply from "project".
Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 23:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC) (Clarified by editing "in" to "against": 23:11, 16 January 2011 (UTC))
This responds to an opening talk statement that "this topic is about feminism, specifically second-wave feminism beginning to end....".
Topicality as second-wave feminism is being understood backwards. Second-wave feminism partly embraced matriarchy. But, as you acknowledged, at least the articulated concept of matriarchy existed long before second-wave feminism began. Matriarchy is not limited to second-wave feminism or to feminism generally.
Which raises the question about why the feminism sidebar was deleted. If your view is that it is about feminism, and I agree that feminism is strongly relevant, the sidebar belongs. I propose restoring it, so please suggest why it wouldn't belong. (I must have double-clicked and thus missed seeing that you had moved the template two minutes later. Sorry.)
Nick Levinson ( talk) 23:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC) (Struck out erroneous content, retitled topic/section, and explained: 02:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC))
No, but the only people today who believe in "matriarchy" as a historical or future form of human society are second-wave feminists. It may have been a scholarly hypothesis in the 19th century, but it's just a political ideology today. -- dab (𒁳) 14:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
I haven't gotten to editing the radical feminism article. Much may not belong there.
Some of the advocacies came from radical feminists and some from lesbians, but I don't know that they all did, and those are not my criteria in researching the subject outside of Wikipedia and have not been. The subject has been discussed in the context of radical feminism, but no source that I know of defines all such advocacies as radical. Not everything unusual, unrealized, believed in by a minority, or that someone feels threatened by is radical. It has to do with how radical is defined in politics.
Not everyone necessarily wanted to transform the society they were living in into a woman-ruled society. Some advocacies are about creating such societies without giving their addresses, so they could be new or elsewhere and yet just as genuine as advocacy.
If you know of a source from within feminism that collects all of these advocacies as radical feminist, please cite it. An antifeminist claiming that it's radical is not likely reliable, since in general in politics anyone someone disagrees with is deemed extreme or crazy, unless the disagreed-with party happens to be liked for some other reason. However, the talk leading up to the AfD and the AfD itself stated arguments that a single tying-together source did not exist. I did not find such a source either. I want one. And, if it had been found, it might have precluded the AfD in the first place. If you have found one, please post it.
Nick Levinson ( talk) 23:27, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Seriously, are you saying you are a feminist? And actually advocating any of this? Then you should read WP:TIGERS. Your radical feminist literature is primary for this topic. What we should cite is not "anti-feminist" literature, what we should cite is encyclopedic literature that is as unbiased as possible. Also I don't see how you can seriously suggest we should discuss whether feminism advocating "matriarchy" can be anything other than radical. Generally, feminism is about equal rights for women. I would suggest that anything that goes towards the direction of exterminating or subjugating the male sex can safely be considered "radical". I do not wish to waste time over debating the obvious which is why I ask you again to read WP:TIGERS. -- dab (𒁳) 14:29, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether Heide Göttner-Abendroth self-identifies, or is reliably identified, as a radical feminist? Unless she was, I propose to rephrase this article to indicate that feminist advocacy for matriarchies was mainly from radicals (the other key sources named qualify) but not all of it. While Heide is a feminist, I don't know if she's radical. In addition, a woman quoted by reporter Margot Adler is not identified as a radical, although she's likely a feminist. I recall that Catharine MacKinnon, a feminist often described as radical against porn and who worked closely on that issue with radical feminist Andrea Dworkin, in one of her books eschewed the term radical for herself, preferring clear, so describing a feminist as radical because of belief in a particular politics may not be accurate. Thus, my question is about Heide, if anyone knows. Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 04:55, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Why did this return to the feminism section after deletion? I couldn't find a source for it and the one given in the passage has been dead for a couple of months and is not available on archive.org. From what I can find, the organizing of the festivals may be out of date; as such, it may be historically interesting and relevant, but this is weaker than much content that was criticized for being too weakly sourced. This needs a secondary source and it reads like only a passive anticipation if she didn't call for matriarchy. If she called for it, that should be quoted or stated. Also, the academy's name shouldn't need quote marks. Please, let's not have one standard if I edit and delete my content for purportedly not meeting it but other people can edit by a lower standard in the same article and it stays. Here's what needs review, editing, or deletion:
Heide Göttner-Abendroth's "International Academy for Modern Matriarchal Studies and Matriarchal Spirituality" (HAGIA, founded in 1986) organizes "Matriarchal Mystery Festivals" as a "symbolic anticipation of a potential future matriarchal society".<ref>"These festivals present an artistic expression and a symbolic anticipation of a potential future matriarchal society. This is not merely an intellectual process but a holistic one: an authentic new creation of a part of matriarchal culture in this present day, and Heide Göttner-Abendroth regards this spiritual part of her work as complementary to and on par with the scientific part." {{cite web| url=http://www.1000peacewomen.org/typo/index.php?id=14&L=1&WomenID=388| title=Heide Göttner-Abendroth| publisher=1000peacewomen.org| accessdate=2008-11-19}} {{Dead link|date=October 2010|bot=H3llBot}}</ref>
Please discuss. Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 05:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC) (Clarified that "it" referred to "the organizing of the festivals": 05:36, 17 January 2011 (UTC))
Nick, I am glad that after much ado you could find yourself to contributing to this article instead of starting your own. But, I don't know, are you somehow trying an adherent or advocate of this school of thought? And seeing the level of material you keep adding, I find it rather ironic that you should question the relevance of Göttner-Abendroth's HAGIA. Unlike most of your material, Göttner-Abendroth is at least directly relevant to this topic because she is advocating "matriarchy" explicitly. -- dab (𒁳) 14:25, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, a single citation from Cambridge would force the two first paragraphs to be deleted! If Elam was at all times (not only of one of the most developed societies) a matriarchy accordind to Cambridge, so there was someday a woman-goddess-matriarchal society. You again trying to hide this citation and put under some 19th century subtitle --as you can see the first paragrapgh comes exclusevely from a 20th century sources!! So, why aren´t them under 20th century subtitle according to the new attempt to blow up any and all matriarchal footsteps. 187.21.132.250 ( talk) 09:50, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Where six consecutive paragraphs state criticisms, why shouldn't they be given a subsubsection heading as Criticisms? I ask since the last heading to that effect was deleted and it would be useful to know why, or it should be restored. I assume being applicable to one subsection and not necessarily the whole article is not a reason for removing the heading, since its presence would only clarify navigation. Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 04:37, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I was wondering anyone else thought it might be helpful to rearrange those two sections, so that the present 20th century sub-section becomes "first half of 20th century", and most or all of the current "feminism" section comes into "history of the concept" under the sub-head "in second wave feminism". Itsmejudith ( talk) 14:27, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Possibly, one definition of each of these terms is by a way of governing generally associated with the respective gender but nonetheless regardless of who has which sex. The hypothesis of the semantic development would likely be that the characteristic governing style being gender-defined rather than sex-defined and gender being socially constructed whereas sex is biologically determined the governing style and not necessarily sex or gender should be the defining difference between matriarchy and patriarchy. This would not replace genderal definitions but be additional to them. Does anyone have a source to supplement or replace this one? This definitional pair, if valid, is relevant to feminism, perhaps to thealogy, although with secular implications:
"A NEW POLITICAL CONCEPTION: A NEW POLITICS
"Matriarchal spirituality is not an institution in the patriarchal sense but a movement possessing a political essence based on a different conception of politics: it is a politics that oversteps the system. The system that is overstepped is the mechanistic, one-sided, hierarchical system of thought and action of patriarchy. Matriarchal spirituality esteems diversity, change, vitality, and a dynamism that admits of no strictures or incrustation. Matriarchal spirituality respects and promotes the union of the psychic interior—which patriarchal politics obscures—and the physical exterior, one's well-being in the natural environment, which patriarchal religions and spiritualism have always obliterated. Matriarchal spirituality negates and neutralizes all types of dualism used by patriarchal politics throughout the millennia to secure domination. It is irrelevant whether it is a dualism that places the intellectual and spiritual above all else and despises the body—particularly the woman's—and controls women through forcible childbearing and unpaid work (as in all conservative patriarchal systems); or a dualism that seeks salvation in materialism or economic determinism and dismisses as superfluous all spiritual expression—a false parallel to the character of patriarchal religions; or the oppressive 'opiate of the masses' (as in all patriarchal systems influenced by Marxism). All forms of dualism serve the principle 'divide and conquer' and are the antithesis of the radical antiestablishment politics of matriarchal spirituality.7
"7. Cf. ["Charlene"] Spretnak, ed., Politics of Women's Spirituality[": Essays on the Rise of Spiritual Power within the Feminist Movement (Garden City, N.Y.: Anchor Books, 1982)"]."
<ref>Göttner-Abendroth, Heide, trans. Maureen T. Krause, ''The Dancing Goddess: Principles of a Matriarchal Aesthetic'' (Boston, Mass.: Beacon Press, 1st English ed. [1st printing? printing of [19]91?] © 1982 (trans. © 1991) (ISBN 0-8070-6753-9)), p. 229 & n. 7 (trans. of ''Die Tanzende Göttin'') (italics so in original; bracketed insertions per ''id.'', p. 224 n. 5 (citations in n. 5 prob. & in n. 7 perh. provided by translator)).</ref>
Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 09:17, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Some content new to this article was previously in an article that was recently deleted, along with its talk page, on which some debates were held. The Talk and the talk history from the deleted article at some date may be made unavailable except probably to admins and higher and to them perhaps only temporarily. The debates may be useful in the future, so the last substantive revision of the discussions and the edit summaries are in an archive subpage. To my knowledge, no copyright or licensing problem exists or was ever asserted. Nick Levinson ( talk) 15:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
For any editor up to date on the anthropology: The article says "'matriarchy' has mostly fallen out of use for the anthropological description of societies". I assume that in anthropology that applies only to existing societies, not to descriptions of societies including hypothetical ones; or do anthropologists now claim that matriarchy is not just unobserved or unlikely but outright impossible? If the former, I propose to add "existing". Thanks. Nick Levinson ( talk) 04:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Could someone with the source please check the following? The passage, in the Mythology subsection Matriarchy#Greece and Rome, starts out by referring to Ronald Hutton, who, according to Wikipedia, is male, then refers to "her", then refers to Hutton. Perhaps the "her" should be "his" or perhaps someone else was the antecedent and subsequent editing of the article lost a connection.
"Historian Ronald Hutton has argued ... [about] female deities ..., noting ... [certain] religions, in which goddesses played important roles. The changes ... are not considered in her analysis, however, and the late classical myths were dominated by male deities. Hutton has also pointed out that ...."
If you know the answer, please edit the article or post here. Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 10:22, 4 February 2011 (UTC) (Corrected the quotation to reflect recent editing and for grammar: 10:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC))
The following, which I cleaned up, is still confusing, because (a) it appears in the Matrifocality subsection and (b) I don't understand how it's a euphemism, i.e., what's being covered up by this word:
"Some consider the term a euphemism ... and as not being parallel to patriarchy, the latter because it is not defined in the same fashion differing only for gender."
Either this belongs with matriarchy (and away from this subsection) or it should be edited to be about matrifocality and patrifocality, but I don't know which. And both might be true. Certainly, matriarchy and patriarchy are not parallel.
Does anyone know what was intended by this passage? If you do, please edit or post. Thank you. Nick Levinson ( talk) 10:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
(I copied the following from my user page and am replying in substance here:)
IP edits (and I'm afraid the rest) deleted, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jackiestud/Archive, IP has been blocked. If anyone wishes to reconstruct their argument, feel free if you use sources. Dougweller ( talk) 13:06, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
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