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In regard to this edit I already addressed the issues with it in the section right above. Since I was reverted, allow me to elaborate:
Volunteer Marek ( talk) 22:42, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 23:36, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
According to the first few sentences, the purpose of the article is simply to discredit the Ukrainian resistance movement rather than familiarize the reader with subject of the article. There were no court cases that prove the fact of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army conducting the ethnic cleansing, yet the wikipedia has the nerve to do so. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 23:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The book Polskie Siły Zbrojne w drugiej wojnie światowej: Armia Krajowa, t. III, "Instytut Historyczny im. Gen. Sikorskiego". Londyn, 1950 says that the end goal of Operation Tempest was the recognition by the Soviet government the Polish exiled government in London and without any concessions on the issue of the Polish eastern borders. Ilyushyn, Ihor. Polish underground on the territory of the Western Ukraine during the World War II. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 00:02, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
To be honest, I've started delving into the references here and am finding sources that should, at the very least, be discussed at the RS/N. Approaching the article's subject from an "from what I understand" stance could be problematic if the sources been using are far from neutral (i.e.,
Tadeusz Piotrowski (sociologist) per
WP:BIASED and
Wikipedia's list of controversial issues, although I've not checked into other sources as yet). While VM may possibly have a point about "massacres" issue, the content, in general, is representative of a pattern of narrative being represented in English Wikipedia: new articles, such as
Yaroslav Hrytsak; misuse of article talk pages such as
Talk:Ukrainian Insurgent Army (recently featuring Yaroslav Hrytsak and Tadeusz Piotrowski as if they weren't controversial); unsourced characterisation of
Rzeczpospolita (newspaper) as "Rzeczpospolita's political profile is moderately conservative and arguably comparable to that of
The Times in Britain. It should be noted, however, that the contemporary Rzeczpospolita reveals a moderately national taste, especially when defending the Polish raison d'etat during historical debates about Polish-German and Polish-Russian relations."
; etc.
I'm beginning to wonder whether a neutral editor should be called in, or whether its an AN/I issue. At the moment, it's being regulated by interest groups... which doesn't really tally with the spirit of Wikipedia. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Apologies Marek (plus Lvivske and Aleksandr). I've actually gone OFFTOPIC by posting this section on this article page. They're concerns of a far broader nature so, if no one has any objections, I think I should move this section to my own talk page. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 03:41, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't fully understand the contention that "history has not POV", as we all know, history is very much point of view; replete with competing narratives. Yes, massacres happened and I don't think anyone is denying that. However, when we start censoring half of the story to push an objective, that becomes a major issue. Also, as I've pointed out, the title, which is blatant original research. -- LeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ) 04:51, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
It is often presented falsely as an account of UPA murder. But instead this is a police picture of children hanged by mentally ill gypsy woman in central Poland in 1923. There is article on Polish wiki, that needs a translation. pl:Marianna Dolińska, I don't know but maybe other pictures from these years are falsely attributed, there was a war then and people were killed in many unusual circumstances, without witnesses, sometimes on personal vendetta, even people who did the pictures, were physically on the place, had interest in falsely attributing the perpetrators to shape the historical memory and direct sentiments to particular nation pwjb ( talk) 09:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
I see from archive that the picture has been in the article and then was removed but, I think it should be inserted here again but with an explanation about the error. Problem is that there are many books that will be with us forever that have the picture with false information and people will use it for the rest of the history to illustrate the subject. pwjb ( talk) 10:01, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 08:31, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Burds writes about Galicia, what is the connection between Galicia and Volhynia? Xx236 ( talk) 13:46, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Marples is quoted here as an author of an article. He has however published a book: http://www.ceupress.com/books/html/HeroesandVillains.htm I don't know the book but if we accept Marples we should quote his final description, too. Xx236 ( talk) 13:29, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Was there a Czech-Ukrainian civil war too? Xx236 ( talk) 08:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
First, I'm not sure if this really should be in the lede. It's about the wider conflict not these specific massacres. These specific massacres began a conflict whose later stages (Operation Vistula, fighting in Lublin region) could possibly be described as civil war.
Second, Burds does not say that these massacres were part of a civil war. That'd be sort of silly, since prior to Klym Savur's initiation of attacks in February of 1943 there was no fighting of any appreciable magnitude going on between Poles and Ukrainians (there was some assassinations and settling of local matters but these were the kinds of things that went on between various underground groups all the time), certainly not in Volhynia where the Polish underground had no presence, having been eliminated by the Soviets and Gestapo.
What Burds say, in referring to it as a civil war, is that it might be a good idea to "avoid putting too much emphasis on isolated events (like the Volhynia terror of 1943 and the Polish terror of 1947)". Putting aside the huge difference in magnitude of casualties that occurred in 1943 and 1947 (Volhynia 1943-1944; between 60k and 120k, Op Vistula 1947; 8k at most), it's pretty clear that one preceded the other. There's nothing in the source which says that a civil war was ongoing when the massacres started. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 21:14, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Years: 1990-1994 Battle deaths: 2,772 [1] Onesided violence: 517,946 [2] Faustian ( talk) 21:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
E-960, would you please desist from disruptively pushing content, particularly content which is WP:UNDUE for the lead. You're no longer a newcomer by anyone's standards, therefore it should not be unreasonable to expect some form of collaborative engagement with other editors. Thank you for your consideration. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 03:54, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Another source by Timothy Snyder describing these events as part of a civil War between Ukrainians and Poles: [5]. "Throughout 1943 Volhynia was the battlefield of a multisided civil war, with Soviet Ukrainian partisans, nationalist Ukrainian partisans, Polish self-defense outposts, and the German police all engaged." From The Shoah in Ukraine: History, Testimony, Memorialization edited by Ray Brandon, Wendy Lower. Published by Indiana University Press. VM: clearly Snyder is referring to Volhynia not what happened afterward. Faustian ( talk) 04:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
And yet more sources: [6]. [7]. "destructive civil war between Poles and Ukrainians in the years 1943 and 1947." A dissertation (thus peer-reviewed) for a Ph.D. in histroy at the University of Michigan. From Oxford University Press: [8] (this one states a war between Ukrainians and Poles, doesn't use the words "civil war."). Faustian ( talk) 04:31, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I have to agree with Volunteer Marek, there is no such thing as a Polish-Ukrainan Civil War. If there is — where's the Wiki page on it or Encyclopedia entries (Britannica has no entry with that name)? -- E-960 ( talk) 17:36, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy, a similar approach is used on the Armenian Genocide page, where the lead section describes the different positions of countries on the issue. Also, Wikipedia recommends that in case of controversial subject matter, it's ok to highlight the varying points of view as long as the source/side is named, and the statement is not worded in such a way as to give universal credence. You are welcome to include a lead statement on how the Ukrainian side views the events of 1943. -- E-960 ( talk) 17:36, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Cambridge University Press, Jul 6, 2006.
Ah, Faustian, you keep providing sources that describe the conflict as a "civil war" of some-kind, all in short passing statements (there is such a things a misquoting sources). Yet, you are not able to provide an encyclopedic entry that lists the Polish-Ukrainian Civil War. Looking over the sources you provided; the authors liken the conflict as a civil-war. After all, what state was that civil war in — Greater Germany? Then perhaps it was a German civil war? — just plain goofy, hehe — not lead material. We should perhaps initiate a RFC on this one. -- E-960 ( talk) 05:10, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch clearly notes that "some" is a weasel word. -- E-960 ( talk) 16:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Here is an interesting fact how the western world sees the sufferings of the Polish nation:
Why? Because the victims of Volhynia were Polish? 195.69.81.75 ( talk) 14:58, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
I just wanted to indicate some historical facts, not view my opinions. My intention is to show that Wikipedia should label the Volhynian & Galician massacre as a genocide, not only an ethnic cleansing, don't make a taboo of it, talk about it, discuss. Use common sense, and be objective, please. 195.69.81.75 ( talk) 09:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
The common way of referring to it, for whatever it's worth, is "ethnic cleansing with elements of genocide". One can disagree with that characterization and compare it to Srebrenica, but unless there's reliable sources on the table, discussion is pointless. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 21:24, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
[11] he joined the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which was engaged in a struggle to drive both German and Soviet occupants from Ukrainian soil - UPA murdered rather Polish civilians. Xx236 ( talk) 07:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Lesser Poland isn't about Eastern Lesser Poland. Xx236 ( talk) 07:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
The number of Polish children, women and unarmed men, that were murered by the Ukrainian UPA army during the Volhynian Genocide was around 120.000. Many historians estimate that the number of Polish victims was not lower than 80.000 and could reach 140.000 people. 192.162.150.105 ( talk) 12:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
made Ukrainian Insurgent Army and the Polish Army with Polish battalions Schutzmannschaft (107, 202) [1], and Soviet partisans Myroslav Chekh. Як Москва відкрила браму до пекла на Волині. І українці, і поляки були пішаками у грі великих держав // «iPress.ua» from: Mirosław Czech. Jak Moskwa rozpętała piekło na Wołyniu // Gazeta Wyborcza, 08.03.2013 21:14 in 1943 during the Second World War in Volyn.-- Бучач-Львів ( talk) 10:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
In traditional Polish historiography biased perceived as ethnic cleansing exclusively Polish population; in Ukrainian - like "action in response to" the atrocities of the Poles on Ukrainian civilians. This topic is much more studied by Polish historians who deal with this problem by the end of the Second World War. In the works of Polish historians tends to exaggerate the Polish victims by impairing Ukrainian victims counted dead Ukrainian at the hands of the Poles as Poles were killed by Ukrainian and included among the Polish victims of other people in part even of Polish nationality who died in very different circumstances and who had no relation to Volyn Massacre. Ukrainian historians began to investigate primarily the subject after restore of Ukraine's independence in 1991.-- Бучач-Львів ( talk) 07:16, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
The 1931 Polish Census recorded significant numbers of ethnic Ruthenians who declared themselves as such. Graphics making reference to that Census need to accurately reflect the data reported, and not distort it. Historical accounts from the region note that the Ukrainian nationalists used violence, or threats of violence, against the Ruthenians who had rejected the Ukrainian nationalist agenda. 2601:44:8901:4240:19C6:8177:A623:25B6 ( talk) 23:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
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According to Hrytsak http://wyborcza.pl/magazyn/1,147225,18418145,kresy-dla-nas-pieklo-dla-was-raj-rozmowa-z-jaroslawem.html Ukrainians aren't able to discuss the massacres of Poles, beacsue they fight the war. They didn't fight however any war till 2013 and Ukrainian historians abroad generally don't participate in the war. Polish emigrants during the cold war ( Kultura) cooperated with other emigrants and prepared liberal solutions. Unfortunately Ukrainian drawers are still empty 75 years later. Xx236 ( talk) 11:19, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
It was a starting hypothesis. Does Siemaszko confirm the number is his books? If not - the numer should be removed or explained - Some Poles believed that the number of Polish victims was 300,000 but the research didn't confirm this. Xx236 ( talk) 07:16, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
According to Scott:
In August 1937, in response to an influx of Polish colonists, peasants refused to bring their crops to town. Industrial workers joined the strike in solidarity. The government took the opportunity to assert its power and quickly suppressed the strikes, killing at least forty-two strikers in the process.149
149 Ibid., 169. The number 42 is from government reports. The reports do not discuss wounded individuals. The likelihood that more people were killed and many more wounded is high.
Ibid. is: Seton-Watson, Hugh. Eastern Europe Between the Wars, 1918-1941. Boulder, Colorado: Westview Press, 1986. First published by Cambridge University Press in 1945.
In second edition of his book (1946) Seton-Watson makes quite a different claim (p. 169):
In August 1937 the Polish peasants organised a strike. They refused to bring their products to the towns, in a desperate attempt to obtain the attention of the Government to their needs. In some of the big towns the workers declared strikes of solidarity. The Government sent the police into the villages and suppressed the strike by force. There were a number of armed conflicts, and the dead were certainly more than the forty-two admitted by the Government. The strike made a deep impression at home and abroad. It showed that the masses in town and country were hostile to the Government, and it was even believed in more than one neighboring capital that Poland was on the verge of civil war.
The wiki version based on Scott's thesis goes even further in assigning nationality:
In response to an influx of Polish colonists to Volhynia in 1937, Ukrainian peasants refused to bring food to the towns and Ukrainian workers went on strike in solidarity with the peasants. The Polish government crushed the strike, killing at least 42 Ukrainian strikers
I find it highly unlikely that the 1986 edition would give different account of events, because the strike in August 1937 was indeed a mass protest by Polish peasants, organized by People's Party and brutally pacified by the police. The official sources talk about 44 victims, the names of 42 were published at the People's Party congress in Kraków in February 1938. Were they all Ukrainians? I doubt it. 9 peasants, for example, were killed in Kasinka Mała which is quite far from Western Ukraine and certainly far from Volhynia.
Another source describing the strike of August 1937:
...in August 1937, peasant strike virtually cut off food supplies to the cities. The peasants called for a moratorium on debt repayments and for economic aid to help with high levels of indebtedness caused by payments for land obtained under the land reform acts. The decision to attack the government was the result of a split within the ZSL leadership. Witos called for an all-out attack on the ruling military coterie. Maciej Rataj, the chairman of the ZSL, had doubts about the effectiveness of strikes and was anxious about the likely consequences of relation. In the end, the decision was made to call for a peasant strike, which led to Rataj resigning. The Government' response was to send in troops. In battles which followed, 44 peasants were killed and thousands arrested.
Anita Prazmowska, Poland: A Modern History, I.B.Tauris, 2010, p. 126.
Hedviberit ( talk) 17:27, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
The same estimates (2000-3000, 10000-15000) are listed twice, the phrases should be integrated. Xx236 ( talk) 08:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
A line on the motivations was removed from the introduction for being of an unsupported point of view. It's from Timothy Snyder, who is widely respected as a neutral voice in this area of history. On page 173 he quotes a UPA report which reads "the population was liquidated for cooperation with the Gestapo and the German authorities." and another "“In the Werbski region the Polish colony Nowa Nowica (40 farms) was burned for cooperation with the German authorities. The population was liquidated.” He also states personally that "revenge by Poles in German uniforms was a solid reason for Ukrainians in Volhynia to believe UPA propaganda about the Polish enemy." He says that there were 1,200 local Poles who collaborated as policemen, and that the Germans called in a battalion of Polish police to assist.
But I've got sidetracked here, the quote I originally referenced was this: "By summer 1943, Polish collaboration was used as a general ra- tionale for the cleansing action begun that spring. As an OUN-Bandera leader summarized the situation in August 1943, German security “uses Polaks in its destructive actions. In response we destroy them unmercifully.”64 I dont think this seems to be of a biased point of view, or should be left out. The reasons behind the killing and how the UPA justified them are kinda important here. --BLACK FUTURE ( tlk2meh) 15:24, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
As my edit summary indicated, the problem is that 1) it doesn't belong in the lede, and 2) the claim was made in Wikipedia voice. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
If this is "Eastern" Galicia, so where exactly is "Western" Galicia ... in
Silesia? Please look at page 215 in
Historical Dictionary of Ukraine. Scarecrow Press. 2013.
ISBN
081087847X. {{
cite book}}
: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors=
(
help) The title of this article not only contradicts historical facts but also its own background introduction. Your feedback is appreciated,
Poeticbent
talk
00:48, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
The article points out the OUN-Bandera organization as one of the major participants in the Volhynia massacre. But I think it should be mentioned that Bandera himself was in a german prison during this whole period, and didn't participated in the massacres. I think this issue needs to be clarified, since it can mislead the reader about the role of Bandera himself in the events. 94.139.128.98 ( talk) 07:53, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Bandera was not entirely cut off from politics and the activities of the OUN-UPA. The OUN-B knew that Bandera's wife visited him, and they used her to forward letters in both directions. Contact with Bandera could not have been difficult, because in 1943 the OUN-B in Ukraine bought cloth of the best quality, to be conveyed to Bandera by his wife, for a suit. According to the testimony of OUN-B member Mykhailo Polevoi, other people also had access to the Providnyk.
— Rossolinski, page 286
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
In regard to this edit I already addressed the issues with it in the section right above. Since I was reverted, allow me to elaborate:
Volunteer Marek ( talk) 22:42, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 23:36, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
According to the first few sentences, the purpose of the article is simply to discredit the Ukrainian resistance movement rather than familiarize the reader with subject of the article. There were no court cases that prove the fact of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army conducting the ethnic cleansing, yet the wikipedia has the nerve to do so. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 23:40, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The book Polskie Siły Zbrojne w drugiej wojnie światowej: Armia Krajowa, t. III, "Instytut Historyczny im. Gen. Sikorskiego". Londyn, 1950 says that the end goal of Operation Tempest was the recognition by the Soviet government the Polish exiled government in London and without any concessions on the issue of the Polish eastern borders. Ilyushyn, Ihor. Polish underground on the territory of the Western Ukraine during the World War II. Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 00:02, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
To be honest, I've started delving into the references here and am finding sources that should, at the very least, be discussed at the RS/N. Approaching the article's subject from an "from what I understand" stance could be problematic if the sources been using are far from neutral (i.e.,
Tadeusz Piotrowski (sociologist) per
WP:BIASED and
Wikipedia's list of controversial issues, although I've not checked into other sources as yet). While VM may possibly have a point about "massacres" issue, the content, in general, is representative of a pattern of narrative being represented in English Wikipedia: new articles, such as
Yaroslav Hrytsak; misuse of article talk pages such as
Talk:Ukrainian Insurgent Army (recently featuring Yaroslav Hrytsak and Tadeusz Piotrowski as if they weren't controversial); unsourced characterisation of
Rzeczpospolita (newspaper) as "Rzeczpospolita's political profile is moderately conservative and arguably comparable to that of
The Times in Britain. It should be noted, however, that the contemporary Rzeczpospolita reveals a moderately national taste, especially when defending the Polish raison d'etat during historical debates about Polish-German and Polish-Russian relations."
; etc.
I'm beginning to wonder whether a neutral editor should be called in, or whether its an AN/I issue. At the moment, it's being regulated by interest groups... which doesn't really tally with the spirit of Wikipedia. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 00:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Apologies Marek (plus Lvivske and Aleksandr). I've actually gone OFFTOPIC by posting this section on this article page. They're concerns of a far broader nature so, if no one has any objections, I think I should move this section to my own talk page. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 03:41, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't fully understand the contention that "history has not POV", as we all know, history is very much point of view; replete with competing narratives. Yes, massacres happened and I don't think anyone is denying that. However, when we start censoring half of the story to push an objective, that becomes a major issue. Also, as I've pointed out, the title, which is blatant original research. -- LeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ) 04:51, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
It is often presented falsely as an account of UPA murder. But instead this is a police picture of children hanged by mentally ill gypsy woman in central Poland in 1923. There is article on Polish wiki, that needs a translation. pl:Marianna Dolińska, I don't know but maybe other pictures from these years are falsely attributed, there was a war then and people were killed in many unusual circumstances, without witnesses, sometimes on personal vendetta, even people who did the pictures, were physically on the place, had interest in falsely attributing the perpetrators to shape the historical memory and direct sentiments to particular nation pwjb ( talk) 09:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
I see from archive that the picture has been in the article and then was removed but, I think it should be inserted here again but with an explanation about the error. Problem is that there are many books that will be with us forever that have the picture with false information and people will use it for the rest of the history to illustrate the subject. pwjb ( talk) 10:01, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 08:31, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Burds writes about Galicia, what is the connection between Galicia and Volhynia? Xx236 ( talk) 13:46, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Marples is quoted here as an author of an article. He has however published a book: http://www.ceupress.com/books/html/HeroesandVillains.htm I don't know the book but if we accept Marples we should quote his final description, too. Xx236 ( talk) 13:29, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Was there a Czech-Ukrainian civil war too? Xx236 ( talk) 08:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
First, I'm not sure if this really should be in the lede. It's about the wider conflict not these specific massacres. These specific massacres began a conflict whose later stages (Operation Vistula, fighting in Lublin region) could possibly be described as civil war.
Second, Burds does not say that these massacres were part of a civil war. That'd be sort of silly, since prior to Klym Savur's initiation of attacks in February of 1943 there was no fighting of any appreciable magnitude going on between Poles and Ukrainians (there was some assassinations and settling of local matters but these were the kinds of things that went on between various underground groups all the time), certainly not in Volhynia where the Polish underground had no presence, having been eliminated by the Soviets and Gestapo.
What Burds say, in referring to it as a civil war, is that it might be a good idea to "avoid putting too much emphasis on isolated events (like the Volhynia terror of 1943 and the Polish terror of 1947)". Putting aside the huge difference in magnitude of casualties that occurred in 1943 and 1947 (Volhynia 1943-1944; between 60k and 120k, Op Vistula 1947; 8k at most), it's pretty clear that one preceded the other. There's nothing in the source which says that a civil war was ongoing when the massacres started. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 21:14, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Years: 1990-1994 Battle deaths: 2,772 [1] Onesided violence: 517,946 [2] Faustian ( talk) 21:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
E-960, would you please desist from disruptively pushing content, particularly content which is WP:UNDUE for the lead. You're no longer a newcomer by anyone's standards, therefore it should not be unreasonable to expect some form of collaborative engagement with other editors. Thank you for your consideration. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 03:54, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Another source by Timothy Snyder describing these events as part of a civil War between Ukrainians and Poles: [5]. "Throughout 1943 Volhynia was the battlefield of a multisided civil war, with Soviet Ukrainian partisans, nationalist Ukrainian partisans, Polish self-defense outposts, and the German police all engaged." From The Shoah in Ukraine: History, Testimony, Memorialization edited by Ray Brandon, Wendy Lower. Published by Indiana University Press. VM: clearly Snyder is referring to Volhynia not what happened afterward. Faustian ( talk) 04:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
And yet more sources: [6]. [7]. "destructive civil war between Poles and Ukrainians in the years 1943 and 1947." A dissertation (thus peer-reviewed) for a Ph.D. in histroy at the University of Michigan. From Oxford University Press: [8] (this one states a war between Ukrainians and Poles, doesn't use the words "civil war."). Faustian ( talk) 04:31, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I have to agree with Volunteer Marek, there is no such thing as a Polish-Ukrainan Civil War. If there is — where's the Wiki page on it or Encyclopedia entries (Britannica has no entry with that name)? -- E-960 ( talk) 17:36, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Iryna Harpy, a similar approach is used on the Armenian Genocide page, where the lead section describes the different positions of countries on the issue. Also, Wikipedia recommends that in case of controversial subject matter, it's ok to highlight the varying points of view as long as the source/side is named, and the statement is not worded in such a way as to give universal credence. You are welcome to include a lead statement on how the Ukrainian side views the events of 1943. -- E-960 ( talk) 17:36, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Cambridge University Press, Jul 6, 2006.
Ah, Faustian, you keep providing sources that describe the conflict as a "civil war" of some-kind, all in short passing statements (there is such a things a misquoting sources). Yet, you are not able to provide an encyclopedic entry that lists the Polish-Ukrainian Civil War. Looking over the sources you provided; the authors liken the conflict as a civil-war. After all, what state was that civil war in — Greater Germany? Then perhaps it was a German civil war? — just plain goofy, hehe — not lead material. We should perhaps initiate a RFC on this one. -- E-960 ( talk) 05:10, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch clearly notes that "some" is a weasel word. -- E-960 ( talk) 16:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Here is an interesting fact how the western world sees the sufferings of the Polish nation:
Why? Because the victims of Volhynia were Polish? 195.69.81.75 ( talk) 14:58, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
I just wanted to indicate some historical facts, not view my opinions. My intention is to show that Wikipedia should label the Volhynian & Galician massacre as a genocide, not only an ethnic cleansing, don't make a taboo of it, talk about it, discuss. Use common sense, and be objective, please. 195.69.81.75 ( talk) 09:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
The common way of referring to it, for whatever it's worth, is "ethnic cleansing with elements of genocide". One can disagree with that characterization and compare it to Srebrenica, but unless there's reliable sources on the table, discussion is pointless. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 21:24, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
[11] he joined the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which was engaged in a struggle to drive both German and Soviet occupants from Ukrainian soil - UPA murdered rather Polish civilians. Xx236 ( talk) 07:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Lesser Poland isn't about Eastern Lesser Poland. Xx236 ( talk) 07:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
The number of Polish children, women and unarmed men, that were murered by the Ukrainian UPA army during the Volhynian Genocide was around 120.000. Many historians estimate that the number of Polish victims was not lower than 80.000 and could reach 140.000 people. 192.162.150.105 ( talk) 12:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
made Ukrainian Insurgent Army and the Polish Army with Polish battalions Schutzmannschaft (107, 202) [1], and Soviet partisans Myroslav Chekh. Як Москва відкрила браму до пекла на Волині. І українці, і поляки були пішаками у грі великих держав // «iPress.ua» from: Mirosław Czech. Jak Moskwa rozpętała piekło na Wołyniu // Gazeta Wyborcza, 08.03.2013 21:14 in 1943 during the Second World War in Volyn.-- Бучач-Львів ( talk) 10:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
In traditional Polish historiography biased perceived as ethnic cleansing exclusively Polish population; in Ukrainian - like "action in response to" the atrocities of the Poles on Ukrainian civilians. This topic is much more studied by Polish historians who deal with this problem by the end of the Second World War. In the works of Polish historians tends to exaggerate the Polish victims by impairing Ukrainian victims counted dead Ukrainian at the hands of the Poles as Poles were killed by Ukrainian and included among the Polish victims of other people in part even of Polish nationality who died in very different circumstances and who had no relation to Volyn Massacre. Ukrainian historians began to investigate primarily the subject after restore of Ukraine's independence in 1991.-- Бучач-Львів ( talk) 07:16, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
The 1931 Polish Census recorded significant numbers of ethnic Ruthenians who declared themselves as such. Graphics making reference to that Census need to accurately reflect the data reported, and not distort it. Historical accounts from the region note that the Ukrainian nationalists used violence, or threats of violence, against the Ruthenians who had rejected the Ukrainian nationalist agenda. 2601:44:8901:4240:19C6:8177:A623:25B6 ( talk) 23:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
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According to Hrytsak http://wyborcza.pl/magazyn/1,147225,18418145,kresy-dla-nas-pieklo-dla-was-raj-rozmowa-z-jaroslawem.html Ukrainians aren't able to discuss the massacres of Poles, beacsue they fight the war. They didn't fight however any war till 2013 and Ukrainian historians abroad generally don't participate in the war. Polish emigrants during the cold war ( Kultura) cooperated with other emigrants and prepared liberal solutions. Unfortunately Ukrainian drawers are still empty 75 years later. Xx236 ( talk) 11:19, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
It was a starting hypothesis. Does Siemaszko confirm the number is his books? If not - the numer should be removed or explained - Some Poles believed that the number of Polish victims was 300,000 but the research didn't confirm this. Xx236 ( talk) 07:16, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
According to Scott:
In August 1937, in response to an influx of Polish colonists, peasants refused to bring their crops to town. Industrial workers joined the strike in solidarity. The government took the opportunity to assert its power and quickly suppressed the strikes, killing at least forty-two strikers in the process.149
149 Ibid., 169. The number 42 is from government reports. The reports do not discuss wounded individuals. The likelihood that more people were killed and many more wounded is high.
Ibid. is: Seton-Watson, Hugh. Eastern Europe Between the Wars, 1918-1941. Boulder, Colorado: Westview Press, 1986. First published by Cambridge University Press in 1945.
In second edition of his book (1946) Seton-Watson makes quite a different claim (p. 169):
In August 1937 the Polish peasants organised a strike. They refused to bring their products to the towns, in a desperate attempt to obtain the attention of the Government to their needs. In some of the big towns the workers declared strikes of solidarity. The Government sent the police into the villages and suppressed the strike by force. There were a number of armed conflicts, and the dead were certainly more than the forty-two admitted by the Government. The strike made a deep impression at home and abroad. It showed that the masses in town and country were hostile to the Government, and it was even believed in more than one neighboring capital that Poland was on the verge of civil war.
The wiki version based on Scott's thesis goes even further in assigning nationality:
In response to an influx of Polish colonists to Volhynia in 1937, Ukrainian peasants refused to bring food to the towns and Ukrainian workers went on strike in solidarity with the peasants. The Polish government crushed the strike, killing at least 42 Ukrainian strikers
I find it highly unlikely that the 1986 edition would give different account of events, because the strike in August 1937 was indeed a mass protest by Polish peasants, organized by People's Party and brutally pacified by the police. The official sources talk about 44 victims, the names of 42 were published at the People's Party congress in Kraków in February 1938. Were they all Ukrainians? I doubt it. 9 peasants, for example, were killed in Kasinka Mała which is quite far from Western Ukraine and certainly far from Volhynia.
Another source describing the strike of August 1937:
...in August 1937, peasant strike virtually cut off food supplies to the cities. The peasants called for a moratorium on debt repayments and for economic aid to help with high levels of indebtedness caused by payments for land obtained under the land reform acts. The decision to attack the government was the result of a split within the ZSL leadership. Witos called for an all-out attack on the ruling military coterie. Maciej Rataj, the chairman of the ZSL, had doubts about the effectiveness of strikes and was anxious about the likely consequences of relation. In the end, the decision was made to call for a peasant strike, which led to Rataj resigning. The Government' response was to send in troops. In battles which followed, 44 peasants were killed and thousands arrested.
Anita Prazmowska, Poland: A Modern History, I.B.Tauris, 2010, p. 126.
Hedviberit ( talk) 17:27, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
The same estimates (2000-3000, 10000-15000) are listed twice, the phrases should be integrated. Xx236 ( talk) 08:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
A line on the motivations was removed from the introduction for being of an unsupported point of view. It's from Timothy Snyder, who is widely respected as a neutral voice in this area of history. On page 173 he quotes a UPA report which reads "the population was liquidated for cooperation with the Gestapo and the German authorities." and another "“In the Werbski region the Polish colony Nowa Nowica (40 farms) was burned for cooperation with the German authorities. The population was liquidated.” He also states personally that "revenge by Poles in German uniforms was a solid reason for Ukrainians in Volhynia to believe UPA propaganda about the Polish enemy." He says that there were 1,200 local Poles who collaborated as policemen, and that the Germans called in a battalion of Polish police to assist.
But I've got sidetracked here, the quote I originally referenced was this: "By summer 1943, Polish collaboration was used as a general ra- tionale for the cleansing action begun that spring. As an OUN-Bandera leader summarized the situation in August 1943, German security “uses Polaks in its destructive actions. In response we destroy them unmercifully.”64 I dont think this seems to be of a biased point of view, or should be left out. The reasons behind the killing and how the UPA justified them are kinda important here. --BLACK FUTURE ( tlk2meh) 15:24, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
As my edit summary indicated, the problem is that 1) it doesn't belong in the lede, and 2) the claim was made in Wikipedia voice. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
If this is "Eastern" Galicia, so where exactly is "Western" Galicia ... in
Silesia? Please look at page 215 in
Historical Dictionary of Ukraine. Scarecrow Press. 2013.
ISBN
081087847X. {{
cite book}}
: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors=
(
help) The title of this article not only contradicts historical facts but also its own background introduction. Your feedback is appreciated,
Poeticbent
talk
00:48, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
The article points out the OUN-Bandera organization as one of the major participants in the Volhynia massacre. But I think it should be mentioned that Bandera himself was in a german prison during this whole period, and didn't participated in the massacres. I think this issue needs to be clarified, since it can mislead the reader about the role of Bandera himself in the events. 94.139.128.98 ( talk) 07:53, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Bandera was not entirely cut off from politics and the activities of the OUN-UPA. The OUN-B knew that Bandera's wife visited him, and they used her to forward letters in both directions. Contact with Bandera could not have been difficult, because in 1943 the OUN-B in Ukraine bought cloth of the best quality, to be conveyed to Bandera by his wife, for a suit. According to the testimony of OUN-B member Mykhailo Polevoi, other people also had access to the Providnyk.
— Rossolinski, page 286