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Hi, check on p.7 of the French source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
More,
"He also mentions Vladimir Stankevich's 1921 book titled The Fate of the Peoples of Russia (Судьба народов России) whereby Stankevich writes that the "angry and defeated" Russian army was "robbing and pillaging the Muslim population" and that as a result, 200 Muslim villages had been destroyed. Hasanli also writes of a 1922 memoir by Boris Baykov who wrote that Muslim villages were exclusively targeted during these events.[13] Mustafa Kemal, the leader of the Turkish National Movement, in justifying an invasion of Armenia, stated that reportedly nearly 200 villages were burned by Armenians and most of their 135,000 inhabitants were "eliminated"."
See Hasanli, Foreign Policy of the Republic of Azerbaijan: The Difficult Road to Western Integration, 1918-1920. pp. 18-19
"In January 1918, a bloody conflict with heavy casualties took place at Shamkhor Station between Russian soldiers and government forces. Stepan Shaumian made an attempt to relate the events that took place from the ninth to the January to counterrevolutionary activity by Musavat party. However, the actual situation was very different. Having taken into consideration that the Russian army, moving toward Baku, would serve the Bolsheviks, or at least would provide them arms and military supplies, the South Caucasian Commissariat considered it necessary to disarm them, and it passed as resolution ordering the disarmament of Russian soldiers. The Azerbaijani population was suffering the most from the return of the Russian army. Vladimir Stankevich, in his work The Fate of the Peoples of Russia, wrote that the retreating Russian army, angry and defeated was robbing and pillaging the Muslim population. According to reports, 200 Muslim villages were destroyed in the course of this operation."
Unrelated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi User:Olympian, I think this sentence needs reworking:
Nakhchivan, which was allotted to the Azerbaijan SSR, was "literally depopulated and turned into a desert" and "almost a third of the Muslim population" fled to Iran
This creates the false impression that Nakhchivan had been depopulated solely due to the massacre and flight of the Muslim population. The massacre of the Armenian population of Nakhchivan in the same period either needs to be mentioned here (for example, "Nakhchivan, where both the Armenian and Azerbaijani populations had been subjected to massacres, was "literally depopulated and turned into a desert"...) or it should be put differently. Revolution Saga ( talk) 03:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
The map in this article has the title: "Own work based on the map of A. Tsutsiyev (2004) (АТЛАС ЭТНОПОЛИТИЧЕСКОЙ ИСТОРИИ КАВКАЗА, Цуциев А.А, Москва: Издательство «Европа», 2007)"
It does not seem possible to reconstruct this map from the linked source (where the URL goes). Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Humanatbest ( talk) 15:07, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
The term Tatar was customarily used by Russians to refer to various Turkic speaking peoples of Russia. As a misnomer with regard to the Azerbaijanis, it will be put hereafter in quotation marks.” – Russian Azerbaijan, 1905-1920 The Shaping of a National Identity in a Muslim Community, page 6
The people who make up Azerbaijan‘s majority population have in the past century gone by many names. Under the czars they were referred to simply as Muslims, or by the generic term ―Tatar, which indicated a Turkic-speaking Muslim. Later, in the early Soviet era, they were referred to as Turks, which turned into Azerbaijanis after 1937.” – Azerbaijan Since Independence, page 258
Before, the Azerbaijani Turks had lacked a distinct national identity and had been called ‘Caucasian Muslims’ or ‘Tatars.’” – Secular nationalist revolution and the construction of the Azerbaijani identity, nation and state, abstract
Speaking on behalf of the Azerbaijanis (Tatars) …” – British Foreign Policy in Azerbaijan, 1918-1920, page 95
Furthermore, Tatar was the official designation used by the Russian state for settled urban Turkish speakers.” – The Azerbaijani Turks, page 28
In imperial Russia, Azerbaijanis were referred to as Tatars or Turks.” – Foreign Policy of the Republic of Azerbaijan The Difficult Road to Western Integration, 1918-1920, Note on translation
… warm admiration for the Tatars (Azerbaijanis) …” – The Republic of Armenia: Volume II, page 32
With the end of tsarist rule, a low-level conflict had resumed between Armenians and Azerbaijanis, the Turkic-speaking Muslims, then known by outsiders mainly as ‘Tatars.’” – Great Catastrophe, page 68
Russian sources refer to all Turkish-speaking Muslims in the region as Tatars. Those living in the eastern parts of South Caucasus, after the creation of the Azerbaijan Republic in 1918, and especially after Sovietization, became identified as Azeris.” – Demographic Changes in the Southwest Caucasus, 1604–1830 The Case of Historical Eastern Armenia, footnote 14
Turkic-speaking Tatars, or Azeris (to give them their modern name) …” – Armenia The Survival of a Nation, page 48
… including the confiscation of Armenian Church properties in 1903–5, the stoking of Armenian–Tatar (Azerbaijani) hostilities in 1905–7 …” – The Armenians Past and Present in the Making of National Identity, page 90
… with Persianized Azerbaijani Turks (known to Russian imperialists as Tatars) …” – Rediscovering Armenia, page 2
I made comments on the Good article nominations page (current #25 in World history) concerning issues that include grammatical errors and stability. The article fails several points, not only for consideration of GA but a premature assessment of B-class. Title: Currently: Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia in 1917–1921. When using a single year "in" 1917 would be proper. When using multiple years "from" 1917–1921 would be more correct; as in Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia from 1917–1921. Otr500 ( talk) 06:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
The terms of the Treaty of Turkmenchay can be found in here.
as the following text is an unreliable abstract that can be edited by different biased sources:This is clear editorial bias, and I am pretty sure original research, that should be fixed as linking to it degrades an article.
This article is not ready for a GA review failing criteria #1, #2, and #5. There are numerous sentence structural and grammatical errors, issues at an AFD shows referencing issues, and recent changes are evidence of instability. The article title could use grammatical improvements. This article was likely prematurely elevated to "B-class" failing #1 and #4.Any that have been rectified please ignore and the corrected title is good.
The Central Muslim National Committee of the South-West Caucasus in Kars on August 1919 writes that Armenian forces put to fire 38 villages in Surmalu, affecting 3,500 people and leaving 40,000 homeless.This is converted to Wikipedia language, "writes" is present tense, and something from 1919 would dictate past-tense.
Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved.Le Temps is a French newspaper that had no involvement with the events it published. Since you commented on the accessibility of the newspaper, here it is in original form for you to verify the claim yourself, albeit from Le Radical, which is the newspaper that La Temps was quoting: Les musulmans persécutés en Arménie
Will a merge result in an article that violates article size guidelines?
Will a merge require the removal of encyclopedic content?
If a merge will result in an article too large to comfortably read or the deletion of encyclopedic content, it should not occur", which is also what WP:NOMERGE states: "
Merging should be avoided if the resulting article would be too long or "clunky"". So, I don't see how a merge in this case improves Wikipedia. – Olympian loquere 08:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
Taner Akçam clearly refers to the Caucasus regarding fabrications and exaggerations while also bringing up an example Erzurum. One doesn't negate the other. Hence I reverted the OR and BLP violating disruptive edit and restored Akcam, and will provide the quote below from his book:
He also criticzed the death figures in primary sources for often being "freely invented by the authors" and exaggerations of "destroyed villages" referring to settlements of 4-5 inhabitants.- this part is still unrelated to the topic article though. As it is visible from the quotation, when it comes to "freely invented by the authors" Akcham refers to Ottoman empire, rather than to Caucasus. P.S. I can share source with you if you interested. A b r v a g l ( PingMe) 09:47, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
exaggerations of "destroyed villages" referring to settlements of 4-5 inhabitants- this is claim of General Kress, not Akcham. Also,
Turkish-German historian Taner Akçam criticized Azerbaijani/Turkish efforts to equate these events with the previous Armenian genocide.- a bit of original research here, Akcham clearly does not talk about any Azerbaijani efforts. A b r v a g l ( PingMe) 09:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello and good day to you! I saw your edit summary on the Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia (1917-1921) page and thought I'd give some context. All of the verifiability concerns raised in the discussion were already addressed. In terms of WP:BRD policy, the editor who removed the content failed to meet it, because referring to well-established and highly reputable sources like " Hovannisian, Richard G.: The Republic of Armenia: From Versailles to London" published by University of California Press as " WP:FRINGE / WP:PRIMARY" and literally deleting 1/3 of article without proper explanation is not being BOLD, but reckless. Moreover, the onus is on the editor who wants to delete already existing content to prove why they should be deleted, therefore BRD doesn't apply here. Considering this, would you please undo your edit? A b r v a g l ( PingMe) 18:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
How did the false claim that Azeris were targeted for the Armenian genocide make it back into the article? That was one of the earliest examples of OR that Olympian had to remove. -- Dallavid ( talk) 22:10, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Azerbaijanis were universally regarded as Turkish fifth columnists and bore the brunt of Armenian anger … Azerbaijanis became the collateral victims of the Young Turks’ genocidal policies of 1915.on page 75 of Great Catastrophe: Armenians and Turks in the Shadow of Genocide. – Olympian loquere 00:29, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Please see the change I made to the article, and reverted myself. Would anyone disagree if I reinstate it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana ( talk • contribs) 21:29, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The article survived an AFD but there were issues noted there, as well as some in the "Issues" section above, that indicates this article fails B-class assessment. During the AFD the title was changed (considered inappropriate) and the parenthetical dates are questionable. This needs resolution to preclude a possible merger discussion. -- Otr500 ( talk) 12:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
I semi-protected the page for 3 months as arbitration enforcement. Ymblanter ( talk) 22:56, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
The discussion on the dispute resolution noticeboard has been closed as failed. The reviewer closed the discussion right after I had pointed out the Hovannisian source is being misrepresented, and they never supported any particular wording for attributing it. Here is the text from the Hovannisian book I presented in the discussion that shows, while he is including the claims of Topchubashov and other Turkish sources, he also discredits them afterwards:
Khondkarian’s pointed questioning was frequently cited in Azerbaijani sources as proof of Armenian culpability. Incorporating this evidence in a formal protest on September 22, Foreign Minister Jafarov charged that the recent pogroms had devastated some fifty Muslim settlements. Public opinion in Azerbaijan was incensed, and the government, revolted by these atrocities, demanded strong measures to ensure the safety of Muslims. The Armenian Dashnakist press retorted that Azerbaijani wails rose to a high pitch whenever the conspirators were trying to divert attention from their own acts of aggression. Was it not curious that Azerbaijani spokesmen, while bemoaning the fate of the "peaceful Muslims" in Armenia, were preaching subversion throughout Erevan and Kars and inviting Mustafa Kemal and Rauf Bey to send their irregular chete bands over the frontier into Karaurgan and Kars? And had they forgotten that repeated appeals for a pacific resolution of all disputes had been answered with an insurrection which had cost another 10,000 Armenian lives, had displaced thousands of newly repatriated people, and had been intended to destroy the Armenian democracy?
The official Armenian reply to Jafarov in October claimed that a mixed Armeno-Muslim commission had gathered information from local Muslim notables showing that responsibility for the disturbances rested upon alien agents, who asserted their authority over villages and partisan groups and then intimidated and punished all those who refused to join the rebellion. The action against Djanfida and Kiarim-arkh had been necessary because those villages harbored the murderers of Armenian peasants and militiamen and served as rebel centers. In that incident sixteen partisans had been killed after they opened fire on the Armenian militia and the villagers had been driven across the Araxes, but that was the extent of the so-called Armenian excesses.
Dallavid ( talk) 00:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
During the Paris Peace Conference, Azerbaijani diplomat Alimardan bey Topchubashov accused the Armenians of massacring the men of six villages and distributing their women. Hovannisian states that "the most vulnerable Muslim settlements" were exposed to retribution by Armenian "militiamen and irregulars". [1]
The Government of the Grand National Assembly in justifying an invasion of Armenia stated that reportedly nearly 200 villages were burned by Armenians and most of their 135 thousand inhabitants were "eliminated". [2]
In 1919, Ottoman commander Halil Bey in a letter to Turkish revolutionary Kâzım Karabekir wrote that 24 villages in Surmalu had been razed by Armenians. [3]
Letting the reader "reach their own conclusion" is not how Wikipedia works.
Torching villages says nothing of massacres or killings, and is likely yet another example that's actually referring to deportations.
References
Please verify the tags Ive added to the article. Please make sure they are reliable and third party. Nothing in this article has direct references to the article. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 03:20, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
POV tag is added because no reliable sources can even attest to the information in the article. It looks as if someone scribbled up their thoughts on certain things that happened during a war. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 03:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
So this whole article that claims a massacre occurred based off one citation by Coyle? where he recently published context. In the previous 100 years no other sources were known. Can someone provide more reliable independent sources that a massacre occurred? Nocturnal781 ( talk) 03:03, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Hasanli has a conflict of interest and cannot be considered a reliable source or an independent one for this topic. I removed his claims of deaths per Wikipedia polices: WP:INDY Nocturnal781 ( talk) 04:20, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
It is not his ethnicity or nationality- You did write this "Also because him being Azerbaijani is a conflict of interest", didn't you?
Hasanli has worked for the government of Azerbaijan.- I addressed this one, by this: "it was published 2 years after Hasanli joined the opposition".
We do not use government related sources on Wikipedia other than to directly cite what the government says- Hasanli is not a governmental source, hence this statement of yours is irrelevant.
He’s not an independent, reliable source.- so far, you haven't brought any solid arguments why a fact-checked and peer-reviewed book that's published by reputable scholarship is not reliable. A b r v a g l ( PingMe) 04:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
Nocturnal781 Thank you for your edits but I don't believe some of them are constructive, firstly:
The Karabakh people rejected demands of Azerbaijani sovereignty over the region that was set forward by Nuri Pasha, commander in chief of Ottoman forces in Caucasus.
This is outside the scope of the article and more relevant to an article about Nagorno-Karabakh or the Karabakh Council; secondly:
The Armenian percentage has been cited as somewhat smaller before the First World War but that figure took in several lowland districts and even so had always shown a clear Armenian majority.
The 1897 census data for Zangezur is already excluding the "lowland districts" and includes the districts making up the present-day Syunik province, see how in 1897, modern-day Syunik had a population of 87,252, whilst the entirety of Zangezur was 137,871.
Thirdly, the onus is on you to gain a consensus to remove pre-existing content, such as the death toll, so please do not remove it until a consensus has been achieved. – Olympian loquere 00:44, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
@ Nocturnal781: I removed your POV tag (see the rationale in the edit summary). This type of tagging during a running dispute can easily be seen as tendentious. A POV tag requires full support from editors – it is meant to notify editors that a POV problem has been identified and seek their help in resolving it. It's a maintenance tag, not a "dispute resolution tag". When editors are in a dispute around there being a POV problem in the first place, the tag serves no purpose as the dispute needs to be resolved first to see what if anything will be done with respect to resolving an (alleged) POV problem. If you want to invite others to help resolve the dispute, the correct mechanisms are the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution mechanisms (such as an RfC, for example). — Alalch E. 18:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
These sections do not seem to be referring to the massacres using cause-effect logic, their relevance as "Aftermath" of the massacres needs to be supported with reliable sources. KhndzorUtogh ( talk) 15:18, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
One year later, this article still remains a incoherent mess of original research complied with unreliable sources and parts of sources that are interpreted very liberally. There are still no actual citations specifically written about an organized a massacre of Azerbaijanis taking place between 1917 and 1921, besides the book written by genocide denier Justin McCarthy. Most of the sources are for deportations ( Deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia) and only make brief mentions of mutual massacres of both Armenians and Azerbaijanis. I have removed Coyle's claim of 10,000 Azerbaijanis being massacred, if a massacre of 10,000 people had taken place in a single area there would be hundreds of other reliable sources to chose from. Instead we only have an "analyst" with no real notability besides writing hostile articles about Armenia, [12], promotional articles about Azerbaijan, [13] and being paid by the Azerbaijani Consulate General in Los Angeles. [14] KhndzorUtogh ( talk) 23:58, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. There is no consensus to move at this time. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vanderwaalforces ( talk) 15:26, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia (1917–1921) → Ethnic cleansing of Azerbaijanis in Armenia (1917–1921) – I see that a lot of the article is talking about forced displacements of people rather than straight-up massacre. For this reason I think the proposed title might be better as it covers both massacres and expulsions. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 19:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BegbertBiggs ( talk) 14:12, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
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Hi, check on p.7 of the French source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
More,
"He also mentions Vladimir Stankevich's 1921 book titled The Fate of the Peoples of Russia (Судьба народов России) whereby Stankevich writes that the "angry and defeated" Russian army was "robbing and pillaging the Muslim population" and that as a result, 200 Muslim villages had been destroyed. Hasanli also writes of a 1922 memoir by Boris Baykov who wrote that Muslim villages were exclusively targeted during these events.[13] Mustafa Kemal, the leader of the Turkish National Movement, in justifying an invasion of Armenia, stated that reportedly nearly 200 villages were burned by Armenians and most of their 135,000 inhabitants were "eliminated"."
See Hasanli, Foreign Policy of the Republic of Azerbaijan: The Difficult Road to Western Integration, 1918-1920. pp. 18-19
"In January 1918, a bloody conflict with heavy casualties took place at Shamkhor Station between Russian soldiers and government forces. Stepan Shaumian made an attempt to relate the events that took place from the ninth to the January to counterrevolutionary activity by Musavat party. However, the actual situation was very different. Having taken into consideration that the Russian army, moving toward Baku, would serve the Bolsheviks, or at least would provide them arms and military supplies, the South Caucasian Commissariat considered it necessary to disarm them, and it passed as resolution ordering the disarmament of Russian soldiers. The Azerbaijani population was suffering the most from the return of the Russian army. Vladimir Stankevich, in his work The Fate of the Peoples of Russia, wrote that the retreating Russian army, angry and defeated was robbing and pillaging the Muslim population. According to reports, 200 Muslim villages were destroyed in the course of this operation."
Unrelated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana ( talk • contribs) 02:58, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi User:Olympian, I think this sentence needs reworking:
Nakhchivan, which was allotted to the Azerbaijan SSR, was "literally depopulated and turned into a desert" and "almost a third of the Muslim population" fled to Iran
This creates the false impression that Nakhchivan had been depopulated solely due to the massacre and flight of the Muslim population. The massacre of the Armenian population of Nakhchivan in the same period either needs to be mentioned here (for example, "Nakhchivan, where both the Armenian and Azerbaijani populations had been subjected to massacres, was "literally depopulated and turned into a desert"...) or it should be put differently. Revolution Saga ( talk) 03:11, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
The map in this article has the title: "Own work based on the map of A. Tsutsiyev (2004) (АТЛАС ЭТНОПОЛИТИЧЕСКОЙ ИСТОРИИ КАВКАЗА, Цуциев А.А, Москва: Издательство «Европа», 2007)"
It does not seem possible to reconstruct this map from the linked source (where the URL goes). Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Humanatbest ( talk) 15:07, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
The term Tatar was customarily used by Russians to refer to various Turkic speaking peoples of Russia. As a misnomer with regard to the Azerbaijanis, it will be put hereafter in quotation marks.” – Russian Azerbaijan, 1905-1920 The Shaping of a National Identity in a Muslim Community, page 6
The people who make up Azerbaijan‘s majority population have in the past century gone by many names. Under the czars they were referred to simply as Muslims, or by the generic term ―Tatar, which indicated a Turkic-speaking Muslim. Later, in the early Soviet era, they were referred to as Turks, which turned into Azerbaijanis after 1937.” – Azerbaijan Since Independence, page 258
Before, the Azerbaijani Turks had lacked a distinct national identity and had been called ‘Caucasian Muslims’ or ‘Tatars.’” – Secular nationalist revolution and the construction of the Azerbaijani identity, nation and state, abstract
Speaking on behalf of the Azerbaijanis (Tatars) …” – British Foreign Policy in Azerbaijan, 1918-1920, page 95
Furthermore, Tatar was the official designation used by the Russian state for settled urban Turkish speakers.” – The Azerbaijani Turks, page 28
In imperial Russia, Azerbaijanis were referred to as Tatars or Turks.” – Foreign Policy of the Republic of Azerbaijan The Difficult Road to Western Integration, 1918-1920, Note on translation
… warm admiration for the Tatars (Azerbaijanis) …” – The Republic of Armenia: Volume II, page 32
With the end of tsarist rule, a low-level conflict had resumed between Armenians and Azerbaijanis, the Turkic-speaking Muslims, then known by outsiders mainly as ‘Tatars.’” – Great Catastrophe, page 68
Russian sources refer to all Turkish-speaking Muslims in the region as Tatars. Those living in the eastern parts of South Caucasus, after the creation of the Azerbaijan Republic in 1918, and especially after Sovietization, became identified as Azeris.” – Demographic Changes in the Southwest Caucasus, 1604–1830 The Case of Historical Eastern Armenia, footnote 14
Turkic-speaking Tatars, or Azeris (to give them their modern name) …” – Armenia The Survival of a Nation, page 48
… including the confiscation of Armenian Church properties in 1903–5, the stoking of Armenian–Tatar (Azerbaijani) hostilities in 1905–7 …” – The Armenians Past and Present in the Making of National Identity, page 90
… with Persianized Azerbaijani Turks (known to Russian imperialists as Tatars) …” – Rediscovering Armenia, page 2
I made comments on the Good article nominations page (current #25 in World history) concerning issues that include grammatical errors and stability. The article fails several points, not only for consideration of GA but a premature assessment of B-class. Title: Currently: Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia in 1917–1921. When using a single year "in" 1917 would be proper. When using multiple years "from" 1917–1921 would be more correct; as in Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia from 1917–1921. Otr500 ( talk) 06:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
The terms of the Treaty of Turkmenchay can be found in here.
as the following text is an unreliable abstract that can be edited by different biased sources:This is clear editorial bias, and I am pretty sure original research, that should be fixed as linking to it degrades an article.
This article is not ready for a GA review failing criteria #1, #2, and #5. There are numerous sentence structural and grammatical errors, issues at an AFD shows referencing issues, and recent changes are evidence of instability. The article title could use grammatical improvements. This article was likely prematurely elevated to "B-class" failing #1 and #4.Any that have been rectified please ignore and the corrected title is good.
The Central Muslim National Committee of the South-West Caucasus in Kars on August 1919 writes that Armenian forces put to fire 38 villages in Surmalu, affecting 3,500 people and leaving 40,000 homeless.This is converted to Wikipedia language, "writes" is present tense, and something from 1919 would dictate past-tense.
Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved.Le Temps is a French newspaper that had no involvement with the events it published. Since you commented on the accessibility of the newspaper, here it is in original form for you to verify the claim yourself, albeit from Le Radical, which is the newspaper that La Temps was quoting: Les musulmans persécutés en Arménie
Will a merge result in an article that violates article size guidelines?
Will a merge require the removal of encyclopedic content?
If a merge will result in an article too large to comfortably read or the deletion of encyclopedic content, it should not occur", which is also what WP:NOMERGE states: "
Merging should be avoided if the resulting article would be too long or "clunky"". So, I don't see how a merge in this case improves Wikipedia. – Olympian loquere 08:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
Taner Akçam clearly refers to the Caucasus regarding fabrications and exaggerations while also bringing up an example Erzurum. One doesn't negate the other. Hence I reverted the OR and BLP violating disruptive edit and restored Akcam, and will provide the quote below from his book:
He also criticzed the death figures in primary sources for often being "freely invented by the authors" and exaggerations of "destroyed villages" referring to settlements of 4-5 inhabitants.- this part is still unrelated to the topic article though. As it is visible from the quotation, when it comes to "freely invented by the authors" Akcham refers to Ottoman empire, rather than to Caucasus. P.S. I can share source with you if you interested. A b r v a g l ( PingMe) 09:47, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
exaggerations of "destroyed villages" referring to settlements of 4-5 inhabitants- this is claim of General Kress, not Akcham. Also,
Turkish-German historian Taner Akçam criticized Azerbaijani/Turkish efforts to equate these events with the previous Armenian genocide.- a bit of original research here, Akcham clearly does not talk about any Azerbaijani efforts. A b r v a g l ( PingMe) 09:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello and good day to you! I saw your edit summary on the Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia (1917-1921) page and thought I'd give some context. All of the verifiability concerns raised in the discussion were already addressed. In terms of WP:BRD policy, the editor who removed the content failed to meet it, because referring to well-established and highly reputable sources like " Hovannisian, Richard G.: The Republic of Armenia: From Versailles to London" published by University of California Press as " WP:FRINGE / WP:PRIMARY" and literally deleting 1/3 of article without proper explanation is not being BOLD, but reckless. Moreover, the onus is on the editor who wants to delete already existing content to prove why they should be deleted, therefore BRD doesn't apply here. Considering this, would you please undo your edit? A b r v a g l ( PingMe) 18:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
How did the false claim that Azeris were targeted for the Armenian genocide make it back into the article? That was one of the earliest examples of OR that Olympian had to remove. -- Dallavid ( talk) 22:10, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Azerbaijanis were universally regarded as Turkish fifth columnists and bore the brunt of Armenian anger … Azerbaijanis became the collateral victims of the Young Turks’ genocidal policies of 1915.on page 75 of Great Catastrophe: Armenians and Turks in the Shadow of Genocide. – Olympian loquere 00:29, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Please see the change I made to the article, and reverted myself. Would anyone disagree if I reinstate it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LikesBanana ( talk • contribs) 21:29, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
The article survived an AFD but there were issues noted there, as well as some in the "Issues" section above, that indicates this article fails B-class assessment. During the AFD the title was changed (considered inappropriate) and the parenthetical dates are questionable. This needs resolution to preclude a possible merger discussion. -- Otr500 ( talk) 12:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
I semi-protected the page for 3 months as arbitration enforcement. Ymblanter ( talk) 22:56, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
The discussion on the dispute resolution noticeboard has been closed as failed. The reviewer closed the discussion right after I had pointed out the Hovannisian source is being misrepresented, and they never supported any particular wording for attributing it. Here is the text from the Hovannisian book I presented in the discussion that shows, while he is including the claims of Topchubashov and other Turkish sources, he also discredits them afterwards:
Khondkarian’s pointed questioning was frequently cited in Azerbaijani sources as proof of Armenian culpability. Incorporating this evidence in a formal protest on September 22, Foreign Minister Jafarov charged that the recent pogroms had devastated some fifty Muslim settlements. Public opinion in Azerbaijan was incensed, and the government, revolted by these atrocities, demanded strong measures to ensure the safety of Muslims. The Armenian Dashnakist press retorted that Azerbaijani wails rose to a high pitch whenever the conspirators were trying to divert attention from their own acts of aggression. Was it not curious that Azerbaijani spokesmen, while bemoaning the fate of the "peaceful Muslims" in Armenia, were preaching subversion throughout Erevan and Kars and inviting Mustafa Kemal and Rauf Bey to send their irregular chete bands over the frontier into Karaurgan and Kars? And had they forgotten that repeated appeals for a pacific resolution of all disputes had been answered with an insurrection which had cost another 10,000 Armenian lives, had displaced thousands of newly repatriated people, and had been intended to destroy the Armenian democracy?
The official Armenian reply to Jafarov in October claimed that a mixed Armeno-Muslim commission had gathered information from local Muslim notables showing that responsibility for the disturbances rested upon alien agents, who asserted their authority over villages and partisan groups and then intimidated and punished all those who refused to join the rebellion. The action against Djanfida and Kiarim-arkh had been necessary because those villages harbored the murderers of Armenian peasants and militiamen and served as rebel centers. In that incident sixteen partisans had been killed after they opened fire on the Armenian militia and the villagers had been driven across the Araxes, but that was the extent of the so-called Armenian excesses.
Dallavid ( talk) 00:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
During the Paris Peace Conference, Azerbaijani diplomat Alimardan bey Topchubashov accused the Armenians of massacring the men of six villages and distributing their women. Hovannisian states that "the most vulnerable Muslim settlements" were exposed to retribution by Armenian "militiamen and irregulars". [1]
The Government of the Grand National Assembly in justifying an invasion of Armenia stated that reportedly nearly 200 villages were burned by Armenians and most of their 135 thousand inhabitants were "eliminated". [2]
In 1919, Ottoman commander Halil Bey in a letter to Turkish revolutionary Kâzım Karabekir wrote that 24 villages in Surmalu had been razed by Armenians. [3]
Letting the reader "reach their own conclusion" is not how Wikipedia works.
Torching villages says nothing of massacres or killings, and is likely yet another example that's actually referring to deportations.
References
Please verify the tags Ive added to the article. Please make sure they are reliable and third party. Nothing in this article has direct references to the article. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 03:20, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
POV tag is added because no reliable sources can even attest to the information in the article. It looks as if someone scribbled up their thoughts on certain things that happened during a war. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 03:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
So this whole article that claims a massacre occurred based off one citation by Coyle? where he recently published context. In the previous 100 years no other sources were known. Can someone provide more reliable independent sources that a massacre occurred? Nocturnal781 ( talk) 03:03, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Hasanli has a conflict of interest and cannot be considered a reliable source or an independent one for this topic. I removed his claims of deaths per Wikipedia polices: WP:INDY Nocturnal781 ( talk) 04:20, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
It is not his ethnicity or nationality- You did write this "Also because him being Azerbaijani is a conflict of interest", didn't you?
Hasanli has worked for the government of Azerbaijan.- I addressed this one, by this: "it was published 2 years after Hasanli joined the opposition".
We do not use government related sources on Wikipedia other than to directly cite what the government says- Hasanli is not a governmental source, hence this statement of yours is irrelevant.
He’s not an independent, reliable source.- so far, you haven't brought any solid arguments why a fact-checked and peer-reviewed book that's published by reputable scholarship is not reliable. A b r v a g l ( PingMe) 04:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
Nocturnal781 Thank you for your edits but I don't believe some of them are constructive, firstly:
The Karabakh people rejected demands of Azerbaijani sovereignty over the region that was set forward by Nuri Pasha, commander in chief of Ottoman forces in Caucasus.
This is outside the scope of the article and more relevant to an article about Nagorno-Karabakh or the Karabakh Council; secondly:
The Armenian percentage has been cited as somewhat smaller before the First World War but that figure took in several lowland districts and even so had always shown a clear Armenian majority.
The 1897 census data for Zangezur is already excluding the "lowland districts" and includes the districts making up the present-day Syunik province, see how in 1897, modern-day Syunik had a population of 87,252, whilst the entirety of Zangezur was 137,871.
Thirdly, the onus is on you to gain a consensus to remove pre-existing content, such as the death toll, so please do not remove it until a consensus has been achieved. – Olympian loquere 00:44, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
@ Nocturnal781: I removed your POV tag (see the rationale in the edit summary). This type of tagging during a running dispute can easily be seen as tendentious. A POV tag requires full support from editors – it is meant to notify editors that a POV problem has been identified and seek their help in resolving it. It's a maintenance tag, not a "dispute resolution tag". When editors are in a dispute around there being a POV problem in the first place, the tag serves no purpose as the dispute needs to be resolved first to see what if anything will be done with respect to resolving an (alleged) POV problem. If you want to invite others to help resolve the dispute, the correct mechanisms are the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution mechanisms (such as an RfC, for example). — Alalch E. 18:52, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
These sections do not seem to be referring to the massacres using cause-effect logic, their relevance as "Aftermath" of the massacres needs to be supported with reliable sources. KhndzorUtogh ( talk) 15:18, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
One year later, this article still remains a incoherent mess of original research complied with unreliable sources and parts of sources that are interpreted very liberally. There are still no actual citations specifically written about an organized a massacre of Azerbaijanis taking place between 1917 and 1921, besides the book written by genocide denier Justin McCarthy. Most of the sources are for deportations ( Deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia) and only make brief mentions of mutual massacres of both Armenians and Azerbaijanis. I have removed Coyle's claim of 10,000 Azerbaijanis being massacred, if a massacre of 10,000 people had taken place in a single area there would be hundreds of other reliable sources to chose from. Instead we only have an "analyst" with no real notability besides writing hostile articles about Armenia, [12], promotional articles about Azerbaijan, [13] and being paid by the Azerbaijani Consulate General in Los Angeles. [14] KhndzorUtogh ( talk) 23:58, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. There is no consensus to move at this time. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Vanderwaalforces ( talk) 15:26, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia (1917–1921) → Ethnic cleansing of Azerbaijanis in Armenia (1917–1921) – I see that a lot of the article is talking about forced displacements of people rather than straight-up massacre. For this reason I think the proposed title might be better as it covers both massacres and expulsions. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 19:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BegbertBiggs ( talk) 14:12, 11 January 2024 (UTC)