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The article is in need of serious cleanup since it uses non-neutral narratives as reference. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:01, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I have removed this [1]. None of the sources are remotely reliable. One is a Hoxha-era source, the other is a re-print of a 100+ year old Albanian source entitled "Greek Barbarities in Albania" [2]. There is simply no way these can be used in a neutral encyclopedia. Khirurg ( talk) 20:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
The only significant exceptions were two groups of families, each from a single village, both of which had been the sites of massacres (Kotani, 2003:92, 98) a handful of families from the mountains of the south west, and several traders all from the same village. In all but the last there were apparent links of kinship. In the first case, refugees from the village of Panarit in the hills in the South-East, 13 families,75 people in all, were located in or close to three hamlets in neighbouring villages, from which the others could be reached on foot within an hour or so.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 12:21, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
I have made some changes to the lead and infobox as it was originally written as though the death figures came from reliable sources. This is not the case as this entire article is primarily based off of newspaper articles of the time and as I have come to found, a letter. These are not assertions but in fact, claims. It has been over a century and if only newspaper articles and letters can be used to reference brutal war crimes, then this article must reference this event as claims until suitable sources that meet WP:RS can be found. Additionally, the figures provided by Spencer cover deaths as a whole and are not specific to war crimes itself. I will do my best to find some reliable sources to add to the page. ElderZamzam ( talk) 22:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
claimed to have beenin the lede, because it’s a real historical occurrence. Besides the older sources that describe first-hand experiences and accounts, I can see a number of WP:RS sources from recent decades that have been incorporated into the article that discuss death toll, specific atrocities, events etc. As such, it would seem to be beyond a claim at this point. In the Albanian settlements of North Macedonia, many of the elders relay how previous generations would talk about the brutality of the Bulgarian forces, and I believe there are a few murals and the like that commemorate those lost during the massacres, although I’d have to find sources online.
It would be better to avoid recycling further POV narratives without sticking to scholarship (and I mean scholarship and not propaganda). Alexikoua ( talk) 03:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
MJSS falls into predatory publishing [ [6]]. It's really weird for a business student (or bisness... as even the spelling is wrong in that publication) with specialty in tourism to become an author of a history paper.
Blind reverts such as this one with wrong edit summaries [ [7]] (removing academic scholarship and reputed journals while adding propaganda papers and tabloid journalism, with pov titles such as 'barbarities in Albania' etc. ) will be reported next time. Alexikoua ( talk) 04:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
Alexikoua added
[8] that Sali Butka in charge of a group of bandits violently attacked
Moscopole, burnt a major part of the city and executed tens of inhabitants
and Botushali removed it as off-topic. The statement is off-topic and it isn't covered by the scope of this article. There are also some mistakes in the statement. Voskopoja was not a city, but a small village in this period and Sali Butka threatened the remaining Aromanian quarters of the village that there would be punitive measures against them if they collaborated with the Greek army. Some did collaborate with the Greek army and Sali Butka attacked their quarters of the village, killed tens of them and then burnt down their houses. Most Aromanians in the city of Korça were supporters of the Albanian national movement and the Greek army burned down their quarters and killed many of them. Such events can't be covered by this article. They require a new article which would discuss the role of different Aromanian communities in 1913-1920.--
Maleschreiber (
talk) 18:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The article is in need of serious cleanup since it uses non-neutral narratives as reference. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:01, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
I have removed this [1]. None of the sources are remotely reliable. One is a Hoxha-era source, the other is a re-print of a 100+ year old Albanian source entitled "Greek Barbarities in Albania" [2]. There is simply no way these can be used in a neutral encyclopedia. Khirurg ( talk) 20:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
The only significant exceptions were two groups of families, each from a single village, both of which had been the sites of massacres (Kotani, 2003:92, 98) a handful of families from the mountains of the south west, and several traders all from the same village. In all but the last there were apparent links of kinship. In the first case, refugees from the village of Panarit in the hills in the South-East, 13 families,75 people in all, were located in or close to three hamlets in neighbouring villages, from which the others could be reached on foot within an hour or so.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 12:21, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
I have made some changes to the lead and infobox as it was originally written as though the death figures came from reliable sources. This is not the case as this entire article is primarily based off of newspaper articles of the time and as I have come to found, a letter. These are not assertions but in fact, claims. It has been over a century and if only newspaper articles and letters can be used to reference brutal war crimes, then this article must reference this event as claims until suitable sources that meet WP:RS can be found. Additionally, the figures provided by Spencer cover deaths as a whole and are not specific to war crimes itself. I will do my best to find some reliable sources to add to the page. ElderZamzam ( talk) 22:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
claimed to have beenin the lede, because it’s a real historical occurrence. Besides the older sources that describe first-hand experiences and accounts, I can see a number of WP:RS sources from recent decades that have been incorporated into the article that discuss death toll, specific atrocities, events etc. As such, it would seem to be beyond a claim at this point. In the Albanian settlements of North Macedonia, many of the elders relay how previous generations would talk about the brutality of the Bulgarian forces, and I believe there are a few murals and the like that commemorate those lost during the massacres, although I’d have to find sources online.
It would be better to avoid recycling further POV narratives without sticking to scholarship (and I mean scholarship and not propaganda). Alexikoua ( talk) 03:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
MJSS falls into predatory publishing [ [6]]. It's really weird for a business student (or bisness... as even the spelling is wrong in that publication) with specialty in tourism to become an author of a history paper.
Blind reverts such as this one with wrong edit summaries [ [7]] (removing academic scholarship and reputed journals while adding propaganda papers and tabloid journalism, with pov titles such as 'barbarities in Albania' etc. ) will be reported next time. Alexikoua ( talk) 04:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
Alexikoua added
[8] that Sali Butka in charge of a group of bandits violently attacked
Moscopole, burnt a major part of the city and executed tens of inhabitants
and Botushali removed it as off-topic. The statement is off-topic and it isn't covered by the scope of this article. There are also some mistakes in the statement. Voskopoja was not a city, but a small village in this period and Sali Butka threatened the remaining Aromanian quarters of the village that there would be punitive measures against them if they collaborated with the Greek army. Some did collaborate with the Greek army and Sali Butka attacked their quarters of the village, killed tens of them and then burnt down their houses. Most Aromanians in the city of Korça were supporters of the Albanian national movement and the Greek army burned down their quarters and killed many of them. Such events can't be covered by this article. They require a new article which would discuss the role of different Aromanian communities in 1913-1920.--
Maleschreiber (
talk) 18:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)