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The similarities and common heritage (including deities, saints, customs and beliefs) within Indian faiths (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, etc) and within Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are probably well-known and over-researched. However, I'm often surprised by several such "historic incidents" or "beliefs" that are common to both Indian and Abrahamic faiths. The massacre of the innocents, for example, is very similar to an incident mentioned in several ancient Indian scriptures relating to the birth of Krishna (the eighth avatar of the Hindu God Vishnu as per the Dasavatara tradition) wherein the contemporary King Kamsa (also the maternal uncle of Krishna) of Mathura (the place of Krishna's birth), afraid of losing the throne and his grip on the kingdom when he came to know of a prophecy, ordered the execution of new-born male children in Mathura. Of course, there are several other such similar traditions between Indian and Abrahamic religions, such as a giant life-wiping deluge (the manifestation of Pralaya on Earth), the efforts of some sages to save life by building a vessel and collecting herds of animals in it, etc etc, the list is probably long. What is not unarguably clear is whether it is Indian events that have influenced or given rise to the Biblical beliefs or vice-versa. It may be dangerous to conclude that the former is more likely solely on the simplistic data that Hinduism and other Indian religions pre-date Abrahamic ones, because it is generally accepted that "incremental embellishments" were continually made to most ancient Indian scriptures right through into the 1st millenium A.D. But this is all very interesting indeed, and I wish more work existed to research and document the commonalities between Indian and Abrahamic faiths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.200.95.130 ( talk) 16:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Title -- I think that I've always called this story "The Slaughter of the Innocents" or "The Slaughter of the Holy Innocents". Perhaps this is Commonwealth countries usage? (martin a.)
Is there any evidence of this from primary sources and/or contemporaneous writers? IIRC, it is only in one of the gospels, and is not in Josephus or other writers who described the reign of Herod. -- FOo
I moved this from the article to here: It has been estimated (by whom?) that, if the story is true, 20 to 30 little boys were killed. - Zoe
Yes, the 20-30 figure was mentioned ina Discovery Channel documentary, which explained that the relatively small number of people killed could be the answer as to why is was not recorded by contemporary historians.
JW: The article says: "Brown estimates that the population was no more than a thousand. Given the birth rate and high infant mortality rate of the time, either of these figures would mean at most only a few dozen children killed."
This refers to page 204 of The Birth Of The Messiah and Brown indicates no such thing. The numbers you attribute to Brown above are Brown's summary of Apologist arguments and not Brown's argument. Brown indicates that based on what "Matthew" wrote the numbers would be much larger and therefore less plausible.
If you want to try and defend against error you first have to deal with the proper translation of "Bethlehem and its vicinity" which most Christian translations have mistranslated thereby underestimating the area referred to. Once you have done this then you can properly estimate the number of innocents "Matthew" intended and you have a default position that this would be the worst thing Herod ever supposedly did. Then you need to identify what was the worst thing Josephus identifed that Herod did and compare it to the slaughter of the Innocents.
When you refer to Apologist arguments this is what you end up with. Joseph
JW:
Okay, here's what Brown says, Pages 204-205:
"The double use of "all" ("regions all around it") in this verse gives the impression of large numbers. Despite the obvious storytelling atmosphere, those interested in establishing the historicity of the event have calculated how many children there would have been in a village like Bethlehem and its surroundings. Because of the high infant mortality rate, we are told that if the total population was one thousand, with an annual birthrate of thirty, the male children under two years of age would scarcely have numbered more than twenty. In this thought pattern the lowness of the number is judged to increase the likelihood, as opposed to the tendency in later writing to exaggerate the number."
Not exactly a ringing endorsement by Brown of the "no more than a thousand" and "at most only a few dozen children killed" assertions in The Article. Now Brown doesn't use the "fantastic" word here which he reserves for the worst Apologies but he doesn't bother to give a footnote reference either. The references in the article to Brown and the numbers above need to be removed.
Joseph
JW: (From Article) "If the event is historical, given the small size of "Bethlehem and its vicinity," it did not involve a large number of boys age two and under. Albright estimates the area had about 300 people at the time. Brown estimates that the population was no more than a thousand. Given the birth rate and high infant mortality rate of the time, either of these figures would mean at most only a few dozen children killed.[2] This would not have been a particularly large atrocity for the period in general and Herod in particular and thus might have escaped mention by Josephus and others."
I can see that Price changed his footnote reference based on what I've written above but the Article itself has not been changed. "Brown estimates that the population was no more than a thousand." No, Brown doesn't say this. Read your own article Price, I know it's confusing now since you had to change it. Brown is reporting what Apologists say. Read properly Brown is saying that reasoning related to the supposed Massacre is Conclusion based. The Early Church wanted big numbers. Modern Apologists, concerned with Historicity, want small numbers. This is Brown's point. The reasoning is Conclusion driven. Thanks for showing us how the Apologist game is played.
Here's a suggestion, read all of The Birth Of The Messiah and not just parts you think agree with your conclusions. Then you will see Page 36:
"Indeed, close analysis of the infancy narratives makes it unlikely that either account is completely historical. Matthew's account contains a number of extraordinary or miraculous public events that, were they factual, should have left some traces in Jewish records or elsewhere in the NT (...the massacre of all the male children in Bethlehem)."
Obviously Brown thinks the Massacre Not historical. Yet you use his name in a plausibility paragraph, attribute an estimate to him that he didn't make and imply he's part of your support for "at most only a few dozen children killed." Here's the deal guys (Price, Carlson). You correct the article or I'll make a special on it at II. Don't make me go through the whole Infancy Narrative here.
Joseph
Has it escaped anyone's notice that 20-30 deaths couldn't be called a massacre? Clinkophonist 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Moved from article:
NOTE from a Bible believer: The higher number of 14,000 or even 64,000 may be easily accounted for when a strict interpretation of the Biblical text is used. The King James says clearly in Matthew 2:16 "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men." If we include "all the coasts thereof" we can easily understand why there are differing numbers in the different liturgies referenced. Different historians seem to often include a different number of surrounding cities and smaller settlements when adding up total numbers in events.
It's also easy to believe that the massacre may have taken place in a number of different sequential events and this also may account for the varying numbers in the various non-Bible liturgies. The Biblical text tells us that Herod the Great "sent forth" rather than performing the massacre himself. It may well have been that his own son Archelaus did the actual killing as Archelaus was known to be an effective military leader and I believe he would have been of a commanding age. (See wikipedia on Archelaus)
We know for a fact that Bethlehem's temporary population was increased due to the time of taxation that forced Joseph to leave Nazareth and travel to Bethlehem. (xref Luke 2:1). The Bible tells us that Joseph had to go to Bethlehem because he was of the house and lineage of David (xref Luke 2:1-4) so we can safely assume that all people of that descent went to Bethlehem and the surrounding areas at that time to be numbered and taxed. I don't know how long they had to stay there but the wise men found Jesus as a young child, in a house rather than a manger, so we know that Jesus' family had remained in Bethlehem for some time. Indeed when the wise men told Herod that they were looking for the Christ they assumed him to be under the age of 2 years. (xref Luke 2:8-12, Matthew 2:11,16). With these facts in mind it is reasonable to believe that many people that came to the area for the taxation may have had an extended stay or may have simply decided to remain around people of their own descent rather than making the difficult and expensive journey back home. Doesn't the Bible clearly tell us that when Mary and Joseph first arrived at Bethlehem the town was so full that they couldn't find a room at the inn and had to sleep in a manger (Luke 2:7)? All of these facts point to a city bursting at it's seams. We know that Joseph had no intention to return to Nazareth because he only left Bethlehem when an angel of the Lord warned him in a dream that Herod was going to try to kill Jesus. (xref Matthew 2:13) The following massacre described in the Bible would have scattered the large temporary population and returned Bethlehem to the sleepy little town it once was. As we know the Bible specifically tells us Bethlehem was normally a small place and it may not have been an ideal place to sustain a large population for an extended period of time. (Micah 5:2-3 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.") Because of the warning God gave Joseph his family was able to flee to Egypt before the massacre and remained there until Herod died and it was safe to return to Israel. We know that he never returned to Bethlehem because he was afraid of Archelaus (which supports the theory that Archelaus had a part in the killings) but being warned of God Joseph decided to settle in Nazareth again were he and Mary had begun. (Matthew 2:19-23, Luke 2:4) Also a dead town like Bethlehem may not have had much need for a carpenter looking for work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.173.177.123 ( talk) 20:14, 4 August 2007
In the present day Roman Catholic Church, is it common for the homily to be against abortion? If so, and if this can be sourced, a statement to this effect would be in order. (Since it is still the Feast of St. John in the United States, I cannot yet get the answer just by going to a daily Mass.) Robert McClenon 00:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
The timeline at Herod would put the massacre of the innocents in Herod Archelaus reign, not Herod the Great's 63.27.184.145 19:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there a reason why Jacolliot writing about the Krishna tale was removed? It is describing a similiar story of Herod. (i.e. The same way Horus, born of a virgin in a stable resurrecting El-Lazar-us, was retold as Jesus resurrecting Lazuras. [2])
I'd guess that since the Khrisna tales are likely to be copied from stories of Jesus (as Hinduisations) that parallels with Khrishna aren't that significant for Christianity. The parallel should probably be discussed in the article for whatever the Krishna tale is called rather than here. I'm extremely curious what something about Horus has got to do with whether Khrishna details belong in the article. Clinkophonist 23:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
There has been an addition to the article:
and again
There is one reference supporting this:
My question: Does Eisenman say that "generally, secular historians don't read the account as historical", or does he just say that he doesn't regard the account as historical?
Also, I am quite uncomfortable with the phrase "secular historians" — historians themselves don't see themselves as divided into secular and unsecular groups, nor am I really sure what that is suppose to mean. What is a "secular historian", and is there a reference that actually suports this division of the scholarship? Lostcaesar 15:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
LC, I think we're letting our readers down if we don't state the strongest historical case up front. But let's say for compromise' sake that this story is too petty to be of interest to historians in general. Still, the Book of Mark's role in the New Testament is of more general interest. Let's try this on for size: "The story of the massacre occurs only in Matthew, which is generally understood by historians to include material invented in order to glorify Jesus. Since the story of the massacre glorifies Jesus by likening him to Moses, it is suspect. Since the massace is directly related to the stories of the wise men and the flight into Egypt, which also appear only in Mark and also glorify Jesus, the massacre fits a pattern." The follow-up question is, Do historians generally regard the Bible as a sacred but fallible text written, redacted, and canonized by mortals and reflecting their changing beliefs? Jonathan Tweet 04:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
LC, "I dont see what is to be gained, not already in present in the article, from your proposed edit." You don't see any advantage to this addition. I do. I could try to point out what it adds, but that's beside the point. If your criticism is merely that you don't see what it adds, then that's not enough to keep me from adding it. Jonathan Tweet 14:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Assume that the nativity narrative of Jesus, with the wise men, the prophecies, the massacre, the angels, etc. is either true or not. Historians have reason to categorize the entire narrative as an invention, thus defining the gospels as including fiction. But there's no known reason for Herod to kill the sons of Bethlehem, unless this narrative is at least partially true. If Herod really did kill these boys, maybe he really did get a visit from wise men and maybe something supernatural (or at least remarkable) really did happen. At the least, historians would have to look again at the nativity story and at the gospels. If archeologiosts found proof that the massacre happened, it would open up a whole new window into the historical Jesus. When I say, "historians care," I mean "historians for whom this their field." How about "Scholars of the historical Jesus usually portray the massacre as a story invented to glorify Jesus, along with the rest of the nativity narrative"? Scholars of the historical Jesus sure care. Again, there's a world of difference, in terms of historical acceptance, between certain events in Jesus life (e.g., crucifixion) and other (e.g., massacre). It's a disservice to the reader to understate this difference. Jonathan Tweet 20:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The allegorical style of the 16th Century in the European Low Countries had a hidden meaning: in alchemy, the "massacre of the innocents" was the title of a process (involving spiritual renunciation) in one of the texts describing the transmutation of gold. In tangible terms, it led, for instance, to the mass-murder of children in the 1430s by Joan of Arc's chief lieutenant,
Gilles de Rais - similar events on a smaller scale occur from time to time to this day. As such, the numerous paintings on this subject dating from the late Renaissance must be viewed alongside the more tangible Alchemical paintings and other associated allegories, such as the various Icarus and Labyrithmic images frequently portrayed. The interest of the painter in such studies was probably pragmatic: he was interested in the possibility of new pigments arising by accident from such proto-chemical studies.
As the Low Countries were under the Inquisitorial tyranny of the
Fernando Álvarez de Toledo, 3rd Duke of Alba, such heretical practices could not be mentioned explicitly - the execution of the Counts of Egmont and Hoorne, two of Alba's most trusted lieutenants (and the subject of Schiller's play for which Beethoven composed the famous Egmont overture) is a case in point, having been provoked by a Hoorne's Dominican confessor overhearing a plot to create a vast amount of wealth alchemically, which is reported to have succeeded. The practitioner in question subsequently sparks the interest of Jan van Helmont in chemistry.
Further to the Herodian discussion above, don't exclude Herod's plan to kill a stadium-full of hostages in his final hours. The antipathy of the Herodian line is specifically cited in Matthew 2:22 as the reason for Joseph's exile into Roman-controlled Judea: however, given the scale of Roman construction at Sebaste and Caesarea Maritime during this period, Nazareth being roughly halfway between the two, it's a fair presumption that as a building contractor (ho-tekton in the Greek does NOT mean carpenter, it's just the closest term in 17c. English) he was comfortably protected without having to restart overseas.
jelmain Brussels
03:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a fair amount of bias in this article, towards the veracity of this event. I think since the article itself states, and all independent research I've done on my own assures, that the Bible is the only place this story appears, and there is no mention of it anywhere else ever, then weaseling in some comment about how "skeptical" scholars deny the existence but "others" think it happened. Clearly, those who are fans of fact and truth should not be labeled skeptics, as if they were the minority. The majority of scholars today cannot find proof that this event happened. Therefore, they are not skeptical. They are being factual. Vaguely 15:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Why do we have sources as out of date as the Catholic Encyclopedia - from 1910, nearly a century out of date? And the source quoted in the reference is from even earlier, a book published in 1897. If no other source is available, these may be better than nothing, but Biblical scholarship has moved on so much in the past century that these references are virtually useless. Besides, the section has modern sources quoted; we don't need this one. Unless someone can come up with a useful explanation as to why the Catholic Encylopedia represents a valuable and still current view that is not elsewhere available, I propose to remove it again. -- Rbreen ( talk) 21:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Nimrod (Bible) mentions a parallel in the story of Moses and the story of Nimrod and Abraham, but I don't understand whether the Christian story is documented earlier than the Nimrod one or the other way round. -- Error ( talk) 18:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I added it, as it had been missing. Properly, the massacre is understood in the context of the historical Herod and Matthew's narrative and agenda. Did some reorg, too. Leadwind ( talk) 17:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
This is HEAVILLY weighted and one-sided toward the atheist/"this is fiction" side, as they claim it as Biblical depictions of Holy Men, how it is excluded from biographies of Harod the Great, even saying the Nativity is Biblical fiction.
How is that neutral? Wikipedia is unbiased, and is to show us both sides. Other then reference of "Ambrosius Theodosius Macrobius, Saturnalia, book II, chapter IV:11", that's about the only "evidence" that the genocide happened. The article actually dismisses it, over and over again.
How do you call this neutral?
"Most recent biographers of Herod therefore do not regard the massacre as an actual historical event,[3] but rather, like the other nativity stories, as creative hagiography."
Weasel words! Who claims this?
"The gospel of Matthew was written c 80 - 85 by an anonymous Christian appealing to a Jewish audience."
First off, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew, not an "annonymous Christian", according to theology. You failed to bring it up. That is not neutral.
"The story was patterned on the Exodus story of the killing of the Hebrew firstborn by Pharaoh and the birth of Moses."
This is biased toward atheism and "fiction". Not only is it blasphemy, it also contradicts the Bible itself, and though you have the right to type it, this is WAY too one sided. Again, this not a parody of Exodous to Christians! It's history to them! As an un-biased, neutral website devoted to telling ALL sides of the story, I believe you should add some more SUPPORT fro this instead of saying "it's fiction, it's fiction, it's fiction, here's a secular reference. it's fiction, it;'s fiction".....
"The story is not mentioned by the contemporary Jewish historian Josephus, nor in the other gospels, nor in the early apocrypha."
Again, you are dismissing it as FICTION, and provide little backup on evidence that is real!
WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL! What ever happened to neutrral1 This is the most one-sided article I've laid eyes on!
Someone, please fix it!
--
74.184.65.160 (
talk)
12:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- 'The story is not mentioned by the contemporary Jewish historian Josephus, nor in the other gospels, nor in the early apocrypha.'
- Again, you are dismissing it as FICTION, and provide little backup on evidence that is real!"
"This is HEAVILLY weighted and one-sided toward the atheist/"this is fiction" side... How is that neutral?" Editors are just reporting what historians say. That's neutral. When WP discusses evolution, it reports what scientists say because that's neutral, even if some people have supernatural reasons to disagree with it, just like some people have supernatural reasons to disagree with what historians say. Leadwind ( talk) 22:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
POV tag added - as this is a non representative and unduly sceptical view. Springnuts ( talk) 20:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
I made a small change re Matthew's account of the magi. Original said: "magi from the east follow a star to Judea". But the text doesn't say that the magi **followed** a star to Judea, only that the magi **saw** a star (actually, the "King of the Jews' star") in the east, so went to Jerusalem. GDon ( talk) 18:39, 24 November 2010 (UTC)GDon.
"historicizing"??? Mannanan51 ( talk) 19:29, 30 May 2011 (UTC)mannanan51
Hi, there is a bit of ping pong on the horizon re this topic, see this diff [ [3]] and check history for others. It would be good to head it off at the pass. We are dealing with a contested argument from silence.
The lead section should 'summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies'. I would suggest two things follow:
1) The ref to numbers is removed - since there seems little controversy that the 'tens of thousands' figure is not believed, see eg the Catholic Encyclopedia: [4]. Given that the lead already calls Bethlehem a village, there is no need to spell out the now generally accepted estimates of numbers, though it could be added in if wished.
2) The section of the lead re historicity is rewritten: "Many modern writers treat the story as fiction." is one sided. Would an editor not involved so far have a go at a non POV summary of this notable controversy please?
Hope this may provide a better way ahead. Springnuts ( talk) 09:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
The lead currently states that "There are historians who view the event as non-historical." This seems to imply that such a view is not the majority view, and that would seem to be false. Are there any sources that claim that 'many' or 'most' scholars accept the story as real? If not, the lead should more accurately present the majority viewpoint.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:44, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
It's a very minor point, but is 'Massacre of the Innocents' the standard terminology for this event? In England, at least, I think 'Slaughter of the Innocents' is more common. 109.158.131.253 ( talk) 12:33, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
What year did this take place in? -- 68.6.227.26 ( talk) 07:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not moved. -- BDD ( talk) 18:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
Massacre of the Innocents → Slaughtering of the Innocents – I've never heard the biblical event described in this article as the "Massacre of the Innocents", always "Slaughtering". Apart from being PC, is there any reason this title is at "Massacre" and not "Slaughtering"? p b p 03:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Presently, we say:
William Barclay argues Josephus' silence is not relevant, drawing a parallel with the diarist John Evelyn's failure to mention the massacre at Glencoe.
One's a history, the other a diary. An intelligent diarist includes what interests him, an intelligent historian, like Josephus, includes the king murdering all of Bethlehem's infant boys, whether it interests him or not. In a history written by a highly-educated, very well-informed, intelligent reporter, absence of evidence strongly suggests absence.
Has an historian responded to Barclay's argument? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk · contribs · email) 19:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Barclay isn't even an historian. Why are we citing him? Does anyone mind if I remove that sentence? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk · contribs · email) 21:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I've deleted it and Rudolf Schnackenburg's opinion - he's not an historian either. [5] -- Anthonyhcole ( talk · contribs · email) 02:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
The Massacres of men category has been recently removed from this article, the requirements of of Massacres of men category are "For inclusion in this category there must be evidence that demonstrates men and boys were specifically targeted for death based on their gender, and the fact that men were specifically targeted during the event must be WP:DEFINING of the incident." This entire incident is a massacre of infant boys, and only boys. This would mark it as defining, and that only boys were targeted. As such I believe that this category is accurate for this article and should be reinstated. -- Kyohyi ( talk) 13:40, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Actually, there are precisely ZERO sources that are not Christian which state that there is independent evidence of this event occurring. Christians seem to want their mythology to be true, but that's not the way we decide whether something is a historical fact. jps ( talk) 15:01, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Following your friends around must be fun,is an example of what I'm talking about, and you should knock it off. I am allowed to comment on any portion I want, or not at all. I'm not mandated to comment further, or I'm obligated in my own mind to leave a 10 paragraph response. Filibustering rules permitting The sources are mostly book sources which I cannot personally access but that does not disqualify them. Tutelary ( talk) 18:28, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
There is no strong evidence that this happened. Therefore it should not be categorized with categories that include verified events. jps ( talk) 16:28, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
This category is for articles on the topic of mass murder or massacres of men or boys where the victims are selected to be killed based on their gender.This is true of this article, and I !vote to include the cat in this circumstance, due to the scope of the cat. Tutelary ( talk) 16:42, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
There are some problems with the current edits in that there is one attempt to paint the supporters of historicity as "devout Christians" while at the same time making claims which are not found in sources, such as that about a lack of evidence. Neutrality is key here, we must report what the sources say and not embellish them with our own perceptions or agenda. Elizium23 ( talk) 21:03, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
There is not a lack of evidence for the Christian viewpoint. There is only jps's opinion that that evidence does not count. Even if there were no secular authorities who accepted the Biblical account as true historically (an unproven claim), it is a non-sequitur to state that therefore there is no evidence. It is not required that there be any secular acceptance. The disparate viewpoints can be mentioned and discussed in the article, but they are viewpoints belonging to WP:RS. Insistence on secular views alone would be WP:POVPUSH and cannot be accepted. A Christian viewpoint is admittedly a viewpoint, as is a secular viewpoint, but viewpoints are expressed, neutrally, per WP:NPOV. Calling Christian viewpoints WP:FRINGE is WP:SNOW, and again a POVPUSH. The central point is that while there are disparate views, each held widely, they therefore are governed by NPOV and balanced by rejection of POVPUSH. In my opinion, "slaughter" is a more appropriate term to use to describe the Biblical account, as "massacre" is more subject to shades of meaning not universally agreed on. Evensteven ( talk) 08:26, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
The fact that we have confirmatory independent evidence for other massacres that occurred in the same category means we shouldn't lump this story with historically verified accounts. In Wikipedia, secular WP:MAINSTREAM scholarship always trumps the magical thinking that imbues Christian faith in the infallibility of their scriptures. jps ( talk) 17:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, there are precisely zero reliable sources which attest certainty to the occurrence of the event. The most positively inclined only deal with plausibility. jps ( talk) 16:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Problem solved: the article has been categorized with Massacres in the Bible. No longer need we to worry about it being real or fictional. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:43, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I am familiar with the site ldolphin.org It is a WP:SELFPUBLISHed website. We should not be using it in this article. [8]
jps ( talk) 12:12, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
With all due respect to the cited authors, who say the church calls the Innocents "Christian martyrs", I must say that the viewpoint is western, and I have no knowledge of how widely-held it is there. I would ask if anyone knows. I will also say that I do not have a copy of the source, and cannot tell if the editing fairly represents the authors' view. It is certainly off-center as regards Orthodox teaching, so there may be viewpoint differences. We should be very careful about how this matter is stated, particularly in the lead.
For now, please realize that Orthodoxy may (I think it does, but need to check to be sure) identify them as martyrs. I am virtually certain it does not identify them as Christians. They were Jewish. Please be aware that many Jews are identified and celebrated as Orthodox saints, among them: Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, many Prophets such as Isaiah, and foremost, John the Baptist (the Forerunner), and the Virgin Mary (the Theotokos). None of these post-date Christ's time on earth, as acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah would identify them as Christian. But the Orthodox teaching of the harrowing of hell describes the release of the righteous dead and their raising to life in God's heavenly kingdom; hence, as saints. The Holy Innocents would fall into that category. (Please be aware also that the "Holy" in "Holy Innocents", the Orthodox way of referring to them, is a translation of "Agia" (Αγια), meaning "holy", and which is also used for "saint".) Evensteven ( talk) 23:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
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The similarities and common heritage (including deities, saints, customs and beliefs) within Indian faiths (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, etc) and within Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are probably well-known and over-researched. However, I'm often surprised by several such "historic incidents" or "beliefs" that are common to both Indian and Abrahamic faiths. The massacre of the innocents, for example, is very similar to an incident mentioned in several ancient Indian scriptures relating to the birth of Krishna (the eighth avatar of the Hindu God Vishnu as per the Dasavatara tradition) wherein the contemporary King Kamsa (also the maternal uncle of Krishna) of Mathura (the place of Krishna's birth), afraid of losing the throne and his grip on the kingdom when he came to know of a prophecy, ordered the execution of new-born male children in Mathura. Of course, there are several other such similar traditions between Indian and Abrahamic religions, such as a giant life-wiping deluge (the manifestation of Pralaya on Earth), the efforts of some sages to save life by building a vessel and collecting herds of animals in it, etc etc, the list is probably long. What is not unarguably clear is whether it is Indian events that have influenced or given rise to the Biblical beliefs or vice-versa. It may be dangerous to conclude that the former is more likely solely on the simplistic data that Hinduism and other Indian religions pre-date Abrahamic ones, because it is generally accepted that "incremental embellishments" were continually made to most ancient Indian scriptures right through into the 1st millenium A.D. But this is all very interesting indeed, and I wish more work existed to research and document the commonalities between Indian and Abrahamic faiths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.200.95.130 ( talk) 16:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Title -- I think that I've always called this story "The Slaughter of the Innocents" or "The Slaughter of the Holy Innocents". Perhaps this is Commonwealth countries usage? (martin a.)
Is there any evidence of this from primary sources and/or contemporaneous writers? IIRC, it is only in one of the gospels, and is not in Josephus or other writers who described the reign of Herod. -- FOo
I moved this from the article to here: It has been estimated (by whom?) that, if the story is true, 20 to 30 little boys were killed. - Zoe
Yes, the 20-30 figure was mentioned ina Discovery Channel documentary, which explained that the relatively small number of people killed could be the answer as to why is was not recorded by contemporary historians.
JW: The article says: "Brown estimates that the population was no more than a thousand. Given the birth rate and high infant mortality rate of the time, either of these figures would mean at most only a few dozen children killed."
This refers to page 204 of The Birth Of The Messiah and Brown indicates no such thing. The numbers you attribute to Brown above are Brown's summary of Apologist arguments and not Brown's argument. Brown indicates that based on what "Matthew" wrote the numbers would be much larger and therefore less plausible.
If you want to try and defend against error you first have to deal with the proper translation of "Bethlehem and its vicinity" which most Christian translations have mistranslated thereby underestimating the area referred to. Once you have done this then you can properly estimate the number of innocents "Matthew" intended and you have a default position that this would be the worst thing Herod ever supposedly did. Then you need to identify what was the worst thing Josephus identifed that Herod did and compare it to the slaughter of the Innocents.
When you refer to Apologist arguments this is what you end up with. Joseph
JW:
Okay, here's what Brown says, Pages 204-205:
"The double use of "all" ("regions all around it") in this verse gives the impression of large numbers. Despite the obvious storytelling atmosphere, those interested in establishing the historicity of the event have calculated how many children there would have been in a village like Bethlehem and its surroundings. Because of the high infant mortality rate, we are told that if the total population was one thousand, with an annual birthrate of thirty, the male children under two years of age would scarcely have numbered more than twenty. In this thought pattern the lowness of the number is judged to increase the likelihood, as opposed to the tendency in later writing to exaggerate the number."
Not exactly a ringing endorsement by Brown of the "no more than a thousand" and "at most only a few dozen children killed" assertions in The Article. Now Brown doesn't use the "fantastic" word here which he reserves for the worst Apologies but he doesn't bother to give a footnote reference either. The references in the article to Brown and the numbers above need to be removed.
Joseph
JW: (From Article) "If the event is historical, given the small size of "Bethlehem and its vicinity," it did not involve a large number of boys age two and under. Albright estimates the area had about 300 people at the time. Brown estimates that the population was no more than a thousand. Given the birth rate and high infant mortality rate of the time, either of these figures would mean at most only a few dozen children killed.[2] This would not have been a particularly large atrocity for the period in general and Herod in particular and thus might have escaped mention by Josephus and others."
I can see that Price changed his footnote reference based on what I've written above but the Article itself has not been changed. "Brown estimates that the population was no more than a thousand." No, Brown doesn't say this. Read your own article Price, I know it's confusing now since you had to change it. Brown is reporting what Apologists say. Read properly Brown is saying that reasoning related to the supposed Massacre is Conclusion based. The Early Church wanted big numbers. Modern Apologists, concerned with Historicity, want small numbers. This is Brown's point. The reasoning is Conclusion driven. Thanks for showing us how the Apologist game is played.
Here's a suggestion, read all of The Birth Of The Messiah and not just parts you think agree with your conclusions. Then you will see Page 36:
"Indeed, close analysis of the infancy narratives makes it unlikely that either account is completely historical. Matthew's account contains a number of extraordinary or miraculous public events that, were they factual, should have left some traces in Jewish records or elsewhere in the NT (...the massacre of all the male children in Bethlehem)."
Obviously Brown thinks the Massacre Not historical. Yet you use his name in a plausibility paragraph, attribute an estimate to him that he didn't make and imply he's part of your support for "at most only a few dozen children killed." Here's the deal guys (Price, Carlson). You correct the article or I'll make a special on it at II. Don't make me go through the whole Infancy Narrative here.
Joseph
Has it escaped anyone's notice that 20-30 deaths couldn't be called a massacre? Clinkophonist 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Moved from article:
NOTE from a Bible believer: The higher number of 14,000 or even 64,000 may be easily accounted for when a strict interpretation of the Biblical text is used. The King James says clearly in Matthew 2:16 "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men." If we include "all the coasts thereof" we can easily understand why there are differing numbers in the different liturgies referenced. Different historians seem to often include a different number of surrounding cities and smaller settlements when adding up total numbers in events.
It's also easy to believe that the massacre may have taken place in a number of different sequential events and this also may account for the varying numbers in the various non-Bible liturgies. The Biblical text tells us that Herod the Great "sent forth" rather than performing the massacre himself. It may well have been that his own son Archelaus did the actual killing as Archelaus was known to be an effective military leader and I believe he would have been of a commanding age. (See wikipedia on Archelaus)
We know for a fact that Bethlehem's temporary population was increased due to the time of taxation that forced Joseph to leave Nazareth and travel to Bethlehem. (xref Luke 2:1). The Bible tells us that Joseph had to go to Bethlehem because he was of the house and lineage of David (xref Luke 2:1-4) so we can safely assume that all people of that descent went to Bethlehem and the surrounding areas at that time to be numbered and taxed. I don't know how long they had to stay there but the wise men found Jesus as a young child, in a house rather than a manger, so we know that Jesus' family had remained in Bethlehem for some time. Indeed when the wise men told Herod that they were looking for the Christ they assumed him to be under the age of 2 years. (xref Luke 2:8-12, Matthew 2:11,16). With these facts in mind it is reasonable to believe that many people that came to the area for the taxation may have had an extended stay or may have simply decided to remain around people of their own descent rather than making the difficult and expensive journey back home. Doesn't the Bible clearly tell us that when Mary and Joseph first arrived at Bethlehem the town was so full that they couldn't find a room at the inn and had to sleep in a manger (Luke 2:7)? All of these facts point to a city bursting at it's seams. We know that Joseph had no intention to return to Nazareth because he only left Bethlehem when an angel of the Lord warned him in a dream that Herod was going to try to kill Jesus. (xref Matthew 2:13) The following massacre described in the Bible would have scattered the large temporary population and returned Bethlehem to the sleepy little town it once was. As we know the Bible specifically tells us Bethlehem was normally a small place and it may not have been an ideal place to sustain a large population for an extended period of time. (Micah 5:2-3 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.") Because of the warning God gave Joseph his family was able to flee to Egypt before the massacre and remained there until Herod died and it was safe to return to Israel. We know that he never returned to Bethlehem because he was afraid of Archelaus (which supports the theory that Archelaus had a part in the killings) but being warned of God Joseph decided to settle in Nazareth again were he and Mary had begun. (Matthew 2:19-23, Luke 2:4) Also a dead town like Bethlehem may not have had much need for a carpenter looking for work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.173.177.123 ( talk) 20:14, 4 August 2007
In the present day Roman Catholic Church, is it common for the homily to be against abortion? If so, and if this can be sourced, a statement to this effect would be in order. (Since it is still the Feast of St. John in the United States, I cannot yet get the answer just by going to a daily Mass.) Robert McClenon 00:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
The timeline at Herod would put the massacre of the innocents in Herod Archelaus reign, not Herod the Great's 63.27.184.145 19:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there a reason why Jacolliot writing about the Krishna tale was removed? It is describing a similiar story of Herod. (i.e. The same way Horus, born of a virgin in a stable resurrecting El-Lazar-us, was retold as Jesus resurrecting Lazuras. [2])
I'd guess that since the Khrisna tales are likely to be copied from stories of Jesus (as Hinduisations) that parallels with Khrishna aren't that significant for Christianity. The parallel should probably be discussed in the article for whatever the Krishna tale is called rather than here. I'm extremely curious what something about Horus has got to do with whether Khrishna details belong in the article. Clinkophonist 23:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
There has been an addition to the article:
and again
There is one reference supporting this:
My question: Does Eisenman say that "generally, secular historians don't read the account as historical", or does he just say that he doesn't regard the account as historical?
Also, I am quite uncomfortable with the phrase "secular historians" — historians themselves don't see themselves as divided into secular and unsecular groups, nor am I really sure what that is suppose to mean. What is a "secular historian", and is there a reference that actually suports this division of the scholarship? Lostcaesar 15:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
LC, I think we're letting our readers down if we don't state the strongest historical case up front. But let's say for compromise' sake that this story is too petty to be of interest to historians in general. Still, the Book of Mark's role in the New Testament is of more general interest. Let's try this on for size: "The story of the massacre occurs only in Matthew, which is generally understood by historians to include material invented in order to glorify Jesus. Since the story of the massacre glorifies Jesus by likening him to Moses, it is suspect. Since the massace is directly related to the stories of the wise men and the flight into Egypt, which also appear only in Mark and also glorify Jesus, the massacre fits a pattern." The follow-up question is, Do historians generally regard the Bible as a sacred but fallible text written, redacted, and canonized by mortals and reflecting their changing beliefs? Jonathan Tweet 04:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
LC, "I dont see what is to be gained, not already in present in the article, from your proposed edit." You don't see any advantage to this addition. I do. I could try to point out what it adds, but that's beside the point. If your criticism is merely that you don't see what it adds, then that's not enough to keep me from adding it. Jonathan Tweet 14:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Assume that the nativity narrative of Jesus, with the wise men, the prophecies, the massacre, the angels, etc. is either true or not. Historians have reason to categorize the entire narrative as an invention, thus defining the gospels as including fiction. But there's no known reason for Herod to kill the sons of Bethlehem, unless this narrative is at least partially true. If Herod really did kill these boys, maybe he really did get a visit from wise men and maybe something supernatural (or at least remarkable) really did happen. At the least, historians would have to look again at the nativity story and at the gospels. If archeologiosts found proof that the massacre happened, it would open up a whole new window into the historical Jesus. When I say, "historians care," I mean "historians for whom this their field." How about "Scholars of the historical Jesus usually portray the massacre as a story invented to glorify Jesus, along with the rest of the nativity narrative"? Scholars of the historical Jesus sure care. Again, there's a world of difference, in terms of historical acceptance, between certain events in Jesus life (e.g., crucifixion) and other (e.g., massacre). It's a disservice to the reader to understate this difference. Jonathan Tweet 20:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The allegorical style of the 16th Century in the European Low Countries had a hidden meaning: in alchemy, the "massacre of the innocents" was the title of a process (involving spiritual renunciation) in one of the texts describing the transmutation of gold. In tangible terms, it led, for instance, to the mass-murder of children in the 1430s by Joan of Arc's chief lieutenant,
Gilles de Rais - similar events on a smaller scale occur from time to time to this day. As such, the numerous paintings on this subject dating from the late Renaissance must be viewed alongside the more tangible Alchemical paintings and other associated allegories, such as the various Icarus and Labyrithmic images frequently portrayed. The interest of the painter in such studies was probably pragmatic: he was interested in the possibility of new pigments arising by accident from such proto-chemical studies.
As the Low Countries were under the Inquisitorial tyranny of the
Fernando Álvarez de Toledo, 3rd Duke of Alba, such heretical practices could not be mentioned explicitly - the execution of the Counts of Egmont and Hoorne, two of Alba's most trusted lieutenants (and the subject of Schiller's play for which Beethoven composed the famous Egmont overture) is a case in point, having been provoked by a Hoorne's Dominican confessor overhearing a plot to create a vast amount of wealth alchemically, which is reported to have succeeded. The practitioner in question subsequently sparks the interest of Jan van Helmont in chemistry.
Further to the Herodian discussion above, don't exclude Herod's plan to kill a stadium-full of hostages in his final hours. The antipathy of the Herodian line is specifically cited in Matthew 2:22 as the reason for Joseph's exile into Roman-controlled Judea: however, given the scale of Roman construction at Sebaste and Caesarea Maritime during this period, Nazareth being roughly halfway between the two, it's a fair presumption that as a building contractor (ho-tekton in the Greek does NOT mean carpenter, it's just the closest term in 17c. English) he was comfortably protected without having to restart overseas.
jelmain Brussels
03:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a fair amount of bias in this article, towards the veracity of this event. I think since the article itself states, and all independent research I've done on my own assures, that the Bible is the only place this story appears, and there is no mention of it anywhere else ever, then weaseling in some comment about how "skeptical" scholars deny the existence but "others" think it happened. Clearly, those who are fans of fact and truth should not be labeled skeptics, as if they were the minority. The majority of scholars today cannot find proof that this event happened. Therefore, they are not skeptical. They are being factual. Vaguely 15:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Why do we have sources as out of date as the Catholic Encyclopedia - from 1910, nearly a century out of date? And the source quoted in the reference is from even earlier, a book published in 1897. If no other source is available, these may be better than nothing, but Biblical scholarship has moved on so much in the past century that these references are virtually useless. Besides, the section has modern sources quoted; we don't need this one. Unless someone can come up with a useful explanation as to why the Catholic Encylopedia represents a valuable and still current view that is not elsewhere available, I propose to remove it again. -- Rbreen ( talk) 21:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Nimrod (Bible) mentions a parallel in the story of Moses and the story of Nimrod and Abraham, but I don't understand whether the Christian story is documented earlier than the Nimrod one or the other way round. -- Error ( talk) 18:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I added it, as it had been missing. Properly, the massacre is understood in the context of the historical Herod and Matthew's narrative and agenda. Did some reorg, too. Leadwind ( talk) 17:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
This is HEAVILLY weighted and one-sided toward the atheist/"this is fiction" side, as they claim it as Biblical depictions of Holy Men, how it is excluded from biographies of Harod the Great, even saying the Nativity is Biblical fiction.
How is that neutral? Wikipedia is unbiased, and is to show us both sides. Other then reference of "Ambrosius Theodosius Macrobius, Saturnalia, book II, chapter IV:11", that's about the only "evidence" that the genocide happened. The article actually dismisses it, over and over again.
How do you call this neutral?
"Most recent biographers of Herod therefore do not regard the massacre as an actual historical event,[3] but rather, like the other nativity stories, as creative hagiography."
Weasel words! Who claims this?
"The gospel of Matthew was written c 80 - 85 by an anonymous Christian appealing to a Jewish audience."
First off, the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew, not an "annonymous Christian", according to theology. You failed to bring it up. That is not neutral.
"The story was patterned on the Exodus story of the killing of the Hebrew firstborn by Pharaoh and the birth of Moses."
This is biased toward atheism and "fiction". Not only is it blasphemy, it also contradicts the Bible itself, and though you have the right to type it, this is WAY too one sided. Again, this not a parody of Exodous to Christians! It's history to them! As an un-biased, neutral website devoted to telling ALL sides of the story, I believe you should add some more SUPPORT fro this instead of saying "it's fiction, it's fiction, it's fiction, here's a secular reference. it's fiction, it;'s fiction".....
"The story is not mentioned by the contemporary Jewish historian Josephus, nor in the other gospels, nor in the early apocrypha."
Again, you are dismissing it as FICTION, and provide little backup on evidence that is real!
WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL! What ever happened to neutrral1 This is the most one-sided article I've laid eyes on!
Someone, please fix it!
--
74.184.65.160 (
talk)
12:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- 'The story is not mentioned by the contemporary Jewish historian Josephus, nor in the other gospels, nor in the early apocrypha.'
- Again, you are dismissing it as FICTION, and provide little backup on evidence that is real!"
"This is HEAVILLY weighted and one-sided toward the atheist/"this is fiction" side... How is that neutral?" Editors are just reporting what historians say. That's neutral. When WP discusses evolution, it reports what scientists say because that's neutral, even if some people have supernatural reasons to disagree with it, just like some people have supernatural reasons to disagree with what historians say. Leadwind ( talk) 22:40, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
POV tag added - as this is a non representative and unduly sceptical view. Springnuts ( talk) 20:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
I made a small change re Matthew's account of the magi. Original said: "magi from the east follow a star to Judea". But the text doesn't say that the magi **followed** a star to Judea, only that the magi **saw** a star (actually, the "King of the Jews' star") in the east, so went to Jerusalem. GDon ( talk) 18:39, 24 November 2010 (UTC)GDon.
"historicizing"??? Mannanan51 ( talk) 19:29, 30 May 2011 (UTC)mannanan51
Hi, there is a bit of ping pong on the horizon re this topic, see this diff [ [3]] and check history for others. It would be good to head it off at the pass. We are dealing with a contested argument from silence.
The lead section should 'summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies'. I would suggest two things follow:
1) The ref to numbers is removed - since there seems little controversy that the 'tens of thousands' figure is not believed, see eg the Catholic Encyclopedia: [4]. Given that the lead already calls Bethlehem a village, there is no need to spell out the now generally accepted estimates of numbers, though it could be added in if wished.
2) The section of the lead re historicity is rewritten: "Many modern writers treat the story as fiction." is one sided. Would an editor not involved so far have a go at a non POV summary of this notable controversy please?
Hope this may provide a better way ahead. Springnuts ( talk) 09:19, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
The lead currently states that "There are historians who view the event as non-historical." This seems to imply that such a view is not the majority view, and that would seem to be false. Are there any sources that claim that 'many' or 'most' scholars accept the story as real? If not, the lead should more accurately present the majority viewpoint.-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 08:44, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
It's a very minor point, but is 'Massacre of the Innocents' the standard terminology for this event? In England, at least, I think 'Slaughter of the Innocents' is more common. 109.158.131.253 ( talk) 12:33, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
What year did this take place in? -- 68.6.227.26 ( talk) 07:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not moved. -- BDD ( talk) 18:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
Massacre of the Innocents → Slaughtering of the Innocents – I've never heard the biblical event described in this article as the "Massacre of the Innocents", always "Slaughtering". Apart from being PC, is there any reason this title is at "Massacre" and not "Slaughtering"? p b p 03:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Presently, we say:
William Barclay argues Josephus' silence is not relevant, drawing a parallel with the diarist John Evelyn's failure to mention the massacre at Glencoe.
One's a history, the other a diary. An intelligent diarist includes what interests him, an intelligent historian, like Josephus, includes the king murdering all of Bethlehem's infant boys, whether it interests him or not. In a history written by a highly-educated, very well-informed, intelligent reporter, absence of evidence strongly suggests absence.
Has an historian responded to Barclay's argument? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk · contribs · email) 19:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Barclay isn't even an historian. Why are we citing him? Does anyone mind if I remove that sentence? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk · contribs · email) 21:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I've deleted it and Rudolf Schnackenburg's opinion - he's not an historian either. [5] -- Anthonyhcole ( talk · contribs · email) 02:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
The Massacres of men category has been recently removed from this article, the requirements of of Massacres of men category are "For inclusion in this category there must be evidence that demonstrates men and boys were specifically targeted for death based on their gender, and the fact that men were specifically targeted during the event must be WP:DEFINING of the incident." This entire incident is a massacre of infant boys, and only boys. This would mark it as defining, and that only boys were targeted. As such I believe that this category is accurate for this article and should be reinstated. -- Kyohyi ( talk) 13:40, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Actually, there are precisely ZERO sources that are not Christian which state that there is independent evidence of this event occurring. Christians seem to want their mythology to be true, but that's not the way we decide whether something is a historical fact. jps ( talk) 15:01, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Following your friends around must be fun,is an example of what I'm talking about, and you should knock it off. I am allowed to comment on any portion I want, or not at all. I'm not mandated to comment further, or I'm obligated in my own mind to leave a 10 paragraph response. Filibustering rules permitting The sources are mostly book sources which I cannot personally access but that does not disqualify them. Tutelary ( talk) 18:28, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
There is no strong evidence that this happened. Therefore it should not be categorized with categories that include verified events. jps ( talk) 16:28, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
This category is for articles on the topic of mass murder or massacres of men or boys where the victims are selected to be killed based on their gender.This is true of this article, and I !vote to include the cat in this circumstance, due to the scope of the cat. Tutelary ( talk) 16:42, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
There are some problems with the current edits in that there is one attempt to paint the supporters of historicity as "devout Christians" while at the same time making claims which are not found in sources, such as that about a lack of evidence. Neutrality is key here, we must report what the sources say and not embellish them with our own perceptions or agenda. Elizium23 ( talk) 21:03, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
There is not a lack of evidence for the Christian viewpoint. There is only jps's opinion that that evidence does not count. Even if there were no secular authorities who accepted the Biblical account as true historically (an unproven claim), it is a non-sequitur to state that therefore there is no evidence. It is not required that there be any secular acceptance. The disparate viewpoints can be mentioned and discussed in the article, but they are viewpoints belonging to WP:RS. Insistence on secular views alone would be WP:POVPUSH and cannot be accepted. A Christian viewpoint is admittedly a viewpoint, as is a secular viewpoint, but viewpoints are expressed, neutrally, per WP:NPOV. Calling Christian viewpoints WP:FRINGE is WP:SNOW, and again a POVPUSH. The central point is that while there are disparate views, each held widely, they therefore are governed by NPOV and balanced by rejection of POVPUSH. In my opinion, "slaughter" is a more appropriate term to use to describe the Biblical account, as "massacre" is more subject to shades of meaning not universally agreed on. Evensteven ( talk) 08:26, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
The fact that we have confirmatory independent evidence for other massacres that occurred in the same category means we shouldn't lump this story with historically verified accounts. In Wikipedia, secular WP:MAINSTREAM scholarship always trumps the magical thinking that imbues Christian faith in the infallibility of their scriptures. jps ( talk) 17:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, there are precisely zero reliable sources which attest certainty to the occurrence of the event. The most positively inclined only deal with plausibility. jps ( talk) 16:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Problem solved: the article has been categorized with Massacres in the Bible. No longer need we to worry about it being real or fictional. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 19:43, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I am familiar with the site ldolphin.org It is a WP:SELFPUBLISHed website. We should not be using it in this article. [8]
jps ( talk) 12:12, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
With all due respect to the cited authors, who say the church calls the Innocents "Christian martyrs", I must say that the viewpoint is western, and I have no knowledge of how widely-held it is there. I would ask if anyone knows. I will also say that I do not have a copy of the source, and cannot tell if the editing fairly represents the authors' view. It is certainly off-center as regards Orthodox teaching, so there may be viewpoint differences. We should be very careful about how this matter is stated, particularly in the lead.
For now, please realize that Orthodoxy may (I think it does, but need to check to be sure) identify them as martyrs. I am virtually certain it does not identify them as Christians. They were Jewish. Please be aware that many Jews are identified and celebrated as Orthodox saints, among them: Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, many Prophets such as Isaiah, and foremost, John the Baptist (the Forerunner), and the Virgin Mary (the Theotokos). None of these post-date Christ's time on earth, as acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah would identify them as Christian. But the Orthodox teaching of the harrowing of hell describes the release of the righteous dead and their raising to life in God's heavenly kingdom; hence, as saints. The Holy Innocents would fall into that category. (Please be aware also that the "Holy" in "Holy Innocents", the Orthodox way of referring to them, is a translation of "Agia" (Αγια), meaning "holy", and which is also used for "saint".) Evensteven ( talk) 23:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)