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This article is way too opinionated and carries way too much of someone's POV rather than presenting an issue of some debate in a balanced fashion. It would be nice to see it present the strong arguements for change while fairly representing m/z as a widely accepted standard that has great utility.-- 134.9.228.11 18:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I have made great effort to accurately and fairly represent all points of view and the support for each viewpoint while accurately representing reality. If you are going to cover a specific POV please do it within the context of representing the POV not as advocacy. There is room for all POV's just don't represent opinion as fact. Yes, there are lots of facts that can add to make a good arguement but that doesn't mean that it changes the nomenclature conventions. You may be of the opinion that the nomenclature should change to be more logical and consistent with physics but that does not mean that it has changed already. Also please discuss what might be more balanced if you disagree with the balance. Wholesale deletion of comments is vandalism. Wholesale deletion (or reversion) of articles without discussion or consideration of other POVs is also vandalism. Notice that all of the facts previously presented are for the most part intact or even improved. -- 134.9.228.11 22:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, thanks for respecting the space and the criticism. A couple of pointers though. The entries are supposed to written in a factual, encyclopedic style. I have edited your editorial, argumentative style in a few places. Please refrain from editorializing in the article. Do it here. A not necessary but perhaps helpful piece of advice for you: If you are arguing a point (here on the discussion page) it is not effective rhetoric to insult those who you are trying to convince. I personally ignore insults and look for your argument; however even so I find that it contains a lot of rhetoric and is more interested in winning an argument than in accurately representing the facts. I have no interest in an argument. In fact I really don't care about what should be done only about facts. I have searched for constructive criticism in your long critique here and have made some improvements to the article based on them. --Thanks In terms of criticism I can offer you (other than style and avoiding combativeness) I am actually very concerned that your usage of m/q is incorrect or at least slightly misrepresentative. I actually have a signifcant physics background and I have never once used m/q in the units that you are using. They seem entirely mass spectrometry specific. I think it is great to present how some have proposed changing the mass spectrometry specific units to be more consistent with physics, but let us not forget about the physicists and engineers who use exclusively kms or gms units for the most part. This brings up a point that you are free to dismiss but thinking as a physicist I never really considered the mass-to-charge ratio to be anything other than just the mass divided by the charge and of no particular importance over any other ratio and thus not worthy of it's own wikipage. It was simply the necessary solution to some physical problems. It held just as much importance to me as say the charge-to-mass ratio and less importance than the distance-to-time ratio. Velocity was worthy of it's own word. I also believe from my limited understanding of other spectroscopies where m/q plays a role that kms or gms units are used. The m/q section seems to pass over this fact very briefly and could be misleading. Perhaps a separate sections for "m/q" and "m/q (mass spectrometry)"? Remember we are presenting facts and are not advocates. We can present factual representations of contraversies and how and why change has been proposed, but keep it real.--
134.9.228.11
19:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I did not know that Th is commonly used in physics? Is this true? I certainly understand that is could be used but I am unaware that it is in common usage. From your edits thus far I tend to think that you think it should be, but that does not make it true. My understanding is that it is not even an accepted unit, only a proposed unit. Also the use of m/q in at atomic units??--
134.9.228.11
19:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Th is not commonly used in mass spectrometry. --
134.9.228.11
19:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You take me all wrong. I understand perfectly well why they recommended the change. I've talked to Graham Cooks about it myself and heard his spiel many times. I am not opposed to the idea either. It however simply is not true that it is in common usage. It is a proposed unit. Btw if you ask Graham cooks what field he is in he says that he is an analytical chemist and will veheminantly reject any other labels.-- 134.9.228.11 20:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I "get it" and I think he makes a compelling point. There are some definate advantages, consistency and clarity to come from such a definition. It is, however, a proposed unit which is not in common usage. That seems to be what you do not get. The fact is that m/z is the law of the land from IUPAC and every MS journal. I'm not arguing what is the better definition simply reporting the fact that there is an established accepted system and a proposed system. I think it is great that you are so enthusiastic about contributing to the justification of the proposed system but it doesn't mean it's day has come and the wiki page should be changed to reflect a decision by IUPAC or all of the MS journal simulataneously switching to Graham Cook's proposed definition.-- 134.9.228.11 20:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should detail that (with references) in the history section. I think much of what you just said is true minus the editorializing. No amount of logic will make me believe something that isn't true. It might convince me personally of the logic behind the proposed new unit, which I am to begin with (no convincing required) but it won't make me believe that it is in common usage today or has the support of IUPAC. Maybe it could be included in the article as something like.
"A small but vocal group of mass spectrometrists, primarily of a more physical background, advocate the change to the proposed Th unit as standard based on logic and consistency with other unit systems; however, with ubiquitous use, IUPAC support, a long history of use and significant interia such a change away from m/z has not occured to any significant degree. Currently all major mass spectrometry journals require m/z as standard and the definition of Th remains as a proposed definition without the support of any governing bodies."
-- 134.9.228.11 23:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The use of m/q in mass spectrometry in SI units is common when adressing physical problems such as instrument design.
I have moderated it to sometimes. It is important for exactly the reason that m/q does not indicate units and it is common for students to make the mistake of mixing units or using physics constants in SI units. I don't have a table of physical constants in anything except SI units. Well I do have them in grams-centimeters-seconds come to think of it but those are SI just not standard SI.-- 134.9.228.11 20:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I think you may have misread the IUPAC definition it says that m/e not m/z is not recommended. m/e was used (probnably moreso than Th) at one point and is not recommended.-- 134.9.228.11 20:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I never said it was a unit I only quoted IUPAC "The use of m/e is not recommended". May be it is not recommended for exactly that reason. -- 134.9.228.11 20:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I still don't get your use of atomic mass units as a acceptable unit of m/q??-- 134.9.228.11 20:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Take mass: mass is a quantity for which the symbol m should be used. The dimension of m is mass. The units of m can be any unit of dimension mass, e.g. kg, lb, ounce, amu, Me, whatever you want. m does not imply a unit, but it implies a dimension. Now lets take speed: symbol v, dimension is L/T which stands for length/time. Units can be km/h, m/s, mm/s, c, whatever. Now same for mass-to-charge ratio: symbol m/q (or m/Q is even more correct), dimension is M/Q, and unit can be anything with the correct dimension, e.g. amu/C, kg/C, u/e, Th, whatever.
The problem is that you are saying that the mass-to-charge ratio can have the units [u], which is toatlly and completely inconsistent with everything you've said and is wrong IMO too. I think it may just be a typo?? Maybe you ment to say "with" atomic units rather than "in" atomic units.-- 134.9.228.11 21:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
m/z is the currently accepted IUPAC nomenclature for mass-to-charge ratio in the field of mass spectrometry. Nothing more to do but define it, demonstrate its usage and address its history so that those who are interested can understand it. End of argument.
I think you may have misread the IUPAC definition it says that m/e not m/z is not recommended. m/e was used (probnably moreso than Th) at one point and is not recommended.-- 134.9.228.11 20:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
"The abbreviation m/z is used to denote the dimensionless quantity formed by dividing the mass number of an ion by its charge number." There is your is'. There is no thomson definition in the gold book at all.-- 134.9.228.11 20:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is how th orange book defines mass-to-charge:
"Mass/charge ratio
(m/z) ratio." [1]
Why don;t you show me where the green book defined mass to charge ratio?? I understand that the green book defines mass and charge and as I said before as a physicist mass-to-charge is just a ratio of these two. The green book says nothing about thomsons or "mass-to-charge". It is a reference for physical chemistry and does not have a section on mass spectrometry. Physically it is logical to have the mass-to-charge be the mass divided by the charge but the thomson isn't exactly that either it is the mass divided by the number of charges and incorporating the value e into it's definition as a scaling factor. It effectively makes e=1 and it disappears. As I have said before there is room for unit thomson in this page just don't missrepresent it as common or official. It has a very good supporting argument for adoption.-- 134.9.228.11 21:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Again you are advocating rather than reflecting reality. I may think that we should base our mass scale on hydrogen and I may have a compelling case but that doesn't make it so. You may disagree with IUPAC but that doesn't change what the universally accepted international governing body of chemical nomenclature says. You may think that analytical chemists are a bunch of hacks and that everything is actually physics and that chemistry does not really exist but that does not make it the prevailing consensus. I would also like to point out that the 45.5 Th is just as much a (physically defined) mass-to-charge ratio as m/z 45.5. The unit thomson does not exist in physics. If you think it does I would like to see the IUPAP definition. It is an invention of an analytical chemist! It is not even an accepted unit in analytical chemistry, although it is occasionally used. The only time I have seen it used is by Graham Cooks himself (an analytical chemist). The only truely correct and consistent use of m/q in physics is to use SI units, as SI units are always prefered over non-SI units. If you were a true purist you would be arguing for SI units. After all they are accepted and used by every scientific field all over the world and are specifically designed to unify the units used throughout diverse fields.-- 134.9.228.11 20:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Look, I'm tired of your circular argument. I've told you several times that I understand the argument for Th. I understand how m/z has inconsistencies, blah, blah, blah. I'm not advocating anything, except to accurately represent the factual truth, not what is "right". You seem to want to represent a half-truth. I agree 100% that there are problems with m/z wrt its definition and consistency and I think this should be accurately represented. It is true that people have pointed this out and there are real inconsistencies. It is also true that Graham Cooks has proposed the unit thomson, and you have properly cited it. It is also true that certain recommendations of IUPAC are inconsistent and these inconsistencies can be accurately represented, as facts. I think that Cooks has made a very salient point, but my opinion does not matter and neither does yours. We are here to represent facts not opinion, nor are we here to advocate. FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS. The language used can represent accurately and fairly two sides of a debate but not advocate. Also we should accurately represent the state of the debate. This is not the place for such a debate to take place. You seem deadset on debating the merits of the Th with me. This is not the place for that sort of thing. We should be debating what the state of the debate is and how to accurately represent it. You seem to think each time I say something like "m/z is recommended by IUPAC" you seem to think that I personally believe that IUPAC is correct in recommending it. What I or you personally thinks is way beyond what an encyclopedia is about. For that matter what is "right" is also outside the scope. What you are doing is like saying that "the US did not invade Iraq, because there were not weapons of mass destruction to begin with." What I am saying is equivalent to "The US invaded Iraq. After several years of searching for weapons of mass destruction little evidence of their existance has been found and the general consensus today is that they did not exist at least in any quantity. Because of this the justification for the invasion remains a contentious issue..." An encyclopedia is not a place for debate but a place for generalized facts. I can only reach a consensus with you if you can bring yourself within the scope of writing an encyclopedia entry. If you are going to persist I do not see that you are contributing to wikipedia.
"NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Wikipedia principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. This includes reader-facing templates, categories and portals. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable"." "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each."
Failure to comply with wikipedia policies and guidelines is serious and can get you banned. I think I am done with negotiation. I will contact a mediator unless you would like to start debating the facts. I know you feel that there are many facts on your side and that you are trying to state them but you need to parse what are facts and what is an argument. Realize that I agree with most of your facts. E.g. --Cooks proposed the unit thomson, based on logic and consistency with the rest of the scientific community. But I disagree with opinion such as --m/z should not be used. And I strongly reject falsehoods such as the unit thomson is commonly used in physics. This is the last time I will address this issue with you without a mediator unless you choose to adhere to the letter and spirit of the wikipedia policies and guidelines.-- 134.9.228.11 23:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Based on our agreement "The use of m/q with Th, atomic units, SI units is common in physics and related fields." has been changed to "The use of m/q in atomic units and SI units is common in physics and related fields."--
134.9.228.11
18:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with: "Whereas m/q is used as a symbol for the well defined physical quantity mass-to-charge ratio" I don't think that m/q is well defined when including Th and m/e. I think the physics definition is well defined: the mass divided by the charge in units of mass over units of charge. The MS usage is mass-to-"number of elemetary charges" even with Th, that is what the number represents. In MS usage the mixing of units and constants makes it poorly defined. I think that this could be stated as a position or an opion but not in the factual way that it is stated here. -- 134.9.228.11 18:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I have made several changes to the article that I hope you see as improvements and consistent with your statements above. SOme reorganization as well.-- 134.9.228.11 18:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Think about what the Th represents. By incorporating the constant e into its definition the net result is that the number represents the mass divided by the number of elemetary charges.
Therefore it is a unit that represents the mass per elemetary charge.
Here is a formalized derivitzation since you are of that mindset:
So to compute whatever Th represents you divide the mass by the number of elementary charges that the ion is carrying:
m/q = n [m/q] = n Th
Why do you think that m/z is numerically identical? The unit Th is a unit of mass per charge number not mass per charge.
It is very confusing and you are confused because they are folding a constant into a unit which is technically very uncool. The true units are Da/"the number of elementary charges". Why are you always dividing your masses by whole numbers? Because it is the charge number!
Also, you are a very good example for eliminating the z. z is so easy to mix up with q that it would be better to drop the z entirely. z just confuses those analytical chemists that are not so used tp coping with units. This, of course, is my POV, but you very much back this POV. Here are the facts: Th = Da/e with dimension mass/charge. (as stated above, e has the dimension charge) and not mass/(charge number) which would have the dimension mass (since charge number is dimensionless).
Another deritivation:
Therefore:
NOT
I apologize for the slopiness of units and constants but that is your source of confusion.
The unit Th times the mass/charge number is equal to the mass to charge. Not the unit Th nor the mass/charge number is the true (physics defined) mass to charge ratio.
The unit Th is a unit with dimensions [mass]/[charge number] but since the charge number is unitless its units are (Da/C) since the constant e=1.602177x10^19 C is hidden in the Th.
I know this is a very confusing explanation ...
... but that is what you get when you start mixing units and constants.
The bottomline intuitive explanation is that in the end the number before the Th is the mass divided by the charge number!!!
I think what would be correct from your philosophy would be to report every number as, for example:
m=91, number of elementary charges=2
that way we would not mix units and constants and it would be a mass to charge. This is however unwieldy and all of it is implied in both m/z and Th. Any way this arguement is moot except in regard to charcterizing the unit Th, which you imply is a unit of the physics defined mass to charge. -- 134.9.228.11 22:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I also disagree that m/z is not a mass-to-charge ratio while m/q in Th is. (m/q in units of mass and charge clearly is) They are numerically and dimensionally identical.
If you have a case and an issue it is about units not dimensions. The charge number has the dimension of charge!
It is however unitless because it is just a number.
Charges are quantized. What are the units of "there are five fingers on my hand"? You could call it "number of fingers" but that is not necessary.
They are either both a mass-to-charge ratio or not.
They are after all interchangeable and numerically identical.
I would vote for are. Numerically they are both the mass divided by the number of charges and as the number of charges is representative of the total charge it is a form of a mass to charge ratio. You can argue about units but if they are the same numbers they represent the same thing.
I hope we can clear this up soon. It is about the silliest argument to be talking about two completely interchangeable systems both of which have essentially the same problems hidden in different ways.
One mixes constants with units and the other gives up and leaves off the units all together.
But they represent exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. One just happens to be the officially accepted notation.-- 134.9.228.11 01:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
"Are you really really sure that they define the Thomson for a dimension mass/(charge number)?"--------------------- Yes the proposed definition is "1Th == 1 u/atomic charge"-- 134.9.228.11 01:50, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
let us start with the following equation on which we hopefully can agree: .
Now it is you turn to
good luck. (Hint: you are allowed to use all my formulas - this should make it easy for you)
m/z can be defined identically.
m/z is almost:
however, since the "units" are not units they are dropped by convention and you get
m/z is:
A more complete definition of Th:
Again the numbers are identical.
There is simply a difference in notation.
m/q (Th) creates a new unit to deal with needing to extricate the number e from the final number and m/z just drops units all together
and extricates the number e in the process. As I have said before my personal opinion (and you seem to only care about what should be done, not what is convention) is that there should be a unit e. with the following definition:
However e is not a unit but a constant. But again my opinion does not matter.
--
134.9.228.11
17:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Conclusion: you still failed in giving a solid definition of m/z! Please try again without illegal unit dropping.
I strongly object to your making this a purely mass spectrometry article. There are other uses of mass-to-charge that are the physically defined mass-to-charge (which you mistake m/q in Th to be). Please stop with your agenda and represent the facts, apropriately and proporitonally. Mass spectrometry is not the only usage of this phrase! Please give appropriate room to the much more common m/q. I don't think that it requires alot simply a clear separation between the usages and clear definition. The MS part requires much more explanation whereas the physical part is intuitive and obvious but don't mix the two.-- 134.9.228.11 18:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Here I would like to elaborate how m/z can be made consistent. Start with a quantity:
now, we set z = q/e and we get
here are the facts:
Big advantage of this approach: a mass spectrum is indeed a mass spectrum, not a mass/charge spectrum. Disadvantage: z is known only in the small mass spec community.
My POV: this is probably how m/z was originaly meant, before the wrong definition in the IUPAC gold book confused everyone. Many people still use it in exactly this way. m/q (Th) is probably still better, but m/z (Da) is also very good. m/z should also get a good name. I envision something like "mass per net charge carrier" or "mass per charge number".
What do you think? Can you live with that?
To Do List:
While I disagree with your to do list. (We should discuss first.) In terms of your personal POV I personally agree very much with your thinking, but that is irrelevant. One point you should think about more is "Big advantage of this approach: a mass spectrum is indeed a mass spectrum, not a mass/charge spectrum." No it still is a mass-to-"number of elemetary charges" spectrum. Your doubly charged ion will not show up at its mass in Da. There is simply no way to make things nice and clean and useful. Even the Th approach has its stickiness and it is a stretch to claim that it is consistent with the rest of science (incorporating a constant into a unit). I personally think that we should redefine the SI unit of charge to be one elemetary charge and create the unit e to replace C (or redefine C==e*mol), solving our problem and solving some others as well. While we are at it some other changes that would be good are to make the mole == 10^24 exactly, adopt the gram as the primary SI unit and make it equal to one (new) mole of hydrogen. It's fun to dream.-- 134.9.228.11 18:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The concept of the dimensionless mass-to-charge ratio m/z is a misconception and should no longer be used. Use m/q instead.
The IUPAC green book about Quantities, Units and Symbols in Physical Chemistry explains:
some examples:
In the following it will be demonstarted that the m/z used by so many mass spectrometrists does not comply to above fundamental instruction about the measurement of physical quantities.
In this article symbols for a physical quantity are written in italics (e.g. q), units are written in bold (e.g. kg). n represents a numerical value that is a real number and z represents a numerical value that is a whole number.
The abbreviation m/z is used to denote the dimensionless quantity formed by dividing the mass number of an ion by its charge number. It has long been called the mass-to-charge ratio although m is not the ionic mass nor is z a multiple or the elementary (electronic) charge, e. The abbreviation m/e is, therefore, not recommended. Thus, for example, for the ion C7H72+, m/z equals 45.5.
1) Mass spectrometers measure the physical quantity mass to charge ratio which is not dimensionless. This is a simple fact.
2) There are some dimensionless physical properties. The most famous one is the Reynolds Number Re and the most common in mass spectrometry is the mass resolving power R = m/dm. The characteristic of such dimensionless properties is that it does not matter what system of units you use: whether you use kg or Da, m/dm will be the same. This is not the case for the mass-to-charge ratio: whether you use kg or Da makes a big difference.
3) If a non-dimensionless physical quantity is measured we should use units. This is exactly what units were invented for. Units are a cultural achievement like the wheel or the language and they should be used.
Let us investigate where the z is coming from: start with Q = n x [Q] and use it for a charge:
Now, if [q] is the elementary charge, n will always be a whole number. Whole numbers are often indicated with z. Therefore in this special case we could write:
This means z is not the symbol of charge as it is used by mass spectrometrists (m/z), it is only the numerical factor belonging to the unit to form a quantity. Hence z is the number that you read from the x-axis and should not appear in the label. Compare this with a charge measurement:
Now, if you label a x-axis that represents a charge, do you label it with “z” ? No! It is labeled with q (C) or q (e). Consequently we should eliminate the z because it is the source of the whole confusion.
Here are the basic facts:
Note: as stated above, the symbol m/q is completely independent on the units [m/q] that are being used. Analogously it is common to use the the symbol for mass m with kg as well as with lb:
Now we have settled the question of the symbol. Let’s turn to the second part, the units to be used. Obviously, everyone in MS wants to measure the mass in u and the charge in elementary charge units. Therefore
becomes:
Hence, the unit mass spectrometrists use is [m/q] = u/e. That is by the way what everyone uses, even when they claim to a dimensionless m/z.
Note how clumsy it is to say: "the ion C7H72+ has a mass-to-charge ratio of 45.5 atomic mass units per elementary charge units".
The problems with above approach are:
(A) is a severe problem: everyone uses a unit that does not exist officially. There are four ways out:
(3) is unpractical, (2) requires (1), therefore there is no way around (1)!
Problem (B) is best solved by adopting the dalton Da
So we end up with:
where 1 Th (thomson) = 1 Da/Mi
but this is too far ahead for the mass spec community
Say:
It is great to see this debate, but the main article needs a neutral point of view. Please outline the facts in the main article and editorialize in the Talk/Discussion page. In particular, it would be useful to get some details of the shift from e/m to m/e to m/z, which must have happened in the early to mid 20th century. Many of the critical papers are now on-line. Yes, m/z is a clunky notation, but if you want to change it, you will need to do some research and lay out some solid arguments. I'm willing to listen and carry any reasonable arguments forward.
Here's a starting point:
As the "counterpoint" to the m/q (Th) argument I would like to say that being a logical, reasonable and consistent notation is not enough to make it the accepted standard and worthy of dominant or even substantial representation in the article. I (personally) generally agree with the argument for change to a "better" notation/unit system; however, the only factual representation of this is that m/q (Th) is a logical and well thought out alternative to m/z but is extremely rare in usage and not recognized by most people, journals, governing bodies. m/z is close to universal in its domain. An important point that also needs to not be misrepresented is that m/q (Th) is computed in an identical way to m/z, and they only differ in notation. They are both the mass in Da divided by the number of elementary charges. This differs from the physics and most other usage which is the mass divided by the charge in accepted units of mass and charge. Let's try to inform the casual (scientific) reader with factual information rather than convince the expert to reasess convention.--
Nick Y.
17:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick:
Considering all this, m/z is already overrepresented in the mass-to-charge page. Science does not exclusively consist of mass spectrometry. If the mass spectrometry community wants to go a separate route than everyone else, they may do this but they should not pretend it is the only way, and they should stop enforcing their opinion on everyone else in the scientific community. 85.0.31.211 10:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Alright here is my repsonse to each point, please understand what I am saying and don't assume that I disagree:
Of course this is most often computed by dividing the mass by the number of charges.
(4)
(5)
(6)
(7)
Points I would like to get consensus on (a short list to start to make it tractable):
-- Nick Y. 21:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are my comments to your points, where I disagree:
(3)
(4)
(6)
(7)
Then my comments to your points of consensus:
(A)
(B)
(C)
(D)
-- 195.186.211.54 07:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
(A) You do not seem to get the distinction between the physics of mass spectrometry and the chemistry of mass spectrometry. As long as you try to include the chemistry part of mass spectrometry in the physics part of mass spectrometry you will not understand the distinction. In physics as in the physics of mass spectrometry m/q is used. In the chemistry of mass spectrometry (interpretation of data) m/z is used, m/q in Th is used by some but is not common or accepted. The point I was trying to reach consensus on is that the physics usage is clear and we can agree, this includes the physics of mass spectrometry because it is physics. I am of the impression that you are going to fail to make this distinction and argue for unification, however the facts are that no matter what you think is right it is convention to use m/z in the chemistry of mass spectrometry and m/q in the physics of mass spectrometry and we should represent facts not arguments for change. "The separation of MS and physics is very artificial and random." maybe so however it exists and we all have to live with it. It is not for you and I to decide how to partition science. I think you should recognize that it is a field at the interface of physics and chemistry that paritially includes both disciplines. I will reword it so that we might reach consensus:
"There is agreement on the usage of m/q or m/Q in physics (excluding mass spectrometry). We also agree that within the field of mass spectrometry the physics usage is used for physical problems."
I think we should also agree that the m/z convention is used with chemical problems within mass spectrometry. But you seem to disagree. Be aware that by agreeing with this you are not saying m/z should be used simply that it is.
(B)You retort is not relevant to what I was proposing we agree upon which only concerns how they are computed from the mass and charge of a given molecule. We can deal with units next. What I am proposing we agree on is that they are computed in the same way regardless of units. They are both the mass in Da divided by the number of elementary charges (please, please, please do not become semantical about this). They are the same number because they are the same ratio of numbers.
(C) So you agree. "m/z is recommended by IUPAC as standard notation in mass spectrometry"
(D) I agree. Restating to include your input and qualify it:
"The unit Th is not recognized by IUPAC, IUPAP or any governing body that recommends nomenclature. It is a unit proposed more than a decade ago by Cooks, who we all respect, but it is not in particularly common usage today. It is however used by some. Additionally its limited usage is confined almost exclusively to mass spectrometry. There is no reason why this proposed unit could not be useful in other fields. However the traditional m/q or M/Q notation in accepted units is near universal outside of mass spectrometry."
-- Nick Y. 17:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, of course I agree that m/z is used by some mass spectrometrists. This is why I included a lengthy section about m/z in the mass-to-charge article even though the definition of m/z is unclear and it is not even sure that m/z is a mass-to-charge ratio. This long discussion, by the way, is now the reason why Kmurray thinks m/z is over represented (he is right, but shortening would make people like you mad).
(B) You still seem not to understand the concept of a physiscal quantity and you treat it as a numerical value. Fact is: if you compute physiscal quantities this includes both, the numerical factor and the units. Therefore, when you say" computing the mass-to-charge ratio (in Th) of a molecule and computing the m/z value of a molecule yields the same result", then you are definitely wrong. Correct would be: "the mass-to-charge ratio (in Th) of a molecule and the m/z value of a molecule are different physiscal quantities which, however, always have the same numerical factors". (Note: this, of course, is only valid under the assumption that m/z is defined according to your or IUPAC definition. If m/z is defined as a mass-to-charge ratio with units u/e, amu/e, Da/e, as many people do, then m/q and m/z are indeed identical. Once more we have the problem that m/z is ill defined and used inconsistently.)
(D) I propose: "The unit Th is a synonym for Da/e and is not recognized by IUPAC, IUPAP or any governing body that recommends nomenclature. It is a unit proposed more than a decade ago by Cooks, who we all respect, but it is not in particularly common usage today. It is however used by some. The composed notation amu/e, u/e, Da/e, which represent the same unit as the Th, are much more widely used. Additionally its limited usage is confined almost exclusively to mass spectrometry. There is no reason why this proposed unit could not be useful in other fields. However the traditional symbols m/e, m/q or m/Q for the quantity mass-to-charge ratio is near universal outside of mass spectrometry."
(E) the m/z notation is not endorsed by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures which is the standards Organization for units, and nor the General Conference on Weights and Measures, nor the International Committee for Weights and Measures have endoresd the m/z notation.
In ion optics m/q or m/Q is used. We all agree. No deabte here.-- Nick Y. 21:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Please give us one reason why chemists cannot use what everyone else uses. -- 195.186.211.54 07:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I do not have to. It is irrelevant. Nor do I care. If they can or should is not relevant to this article (or any wikipedia article) that is the reason for the POV check. I have never advocated should or could and have not taken a position except for the purpose of letting you know that my position is irrelevant too. The point of wikipedia is to represent what is. If you can not get this point and stop being an advocate I think that is grounds to ban you from wikipedia. -- Nick Y. 19:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, fact IS that m/z even among mass spectrometrists is not as predominant as you suggest it is. Your claim is only based on your personal POV. Look at the links below, if you don't believe it. Both, m/q and m/e ARE USED by mass spectrometrists. Thomson, the inventor of mass spectrometry, used m/e with dimension mass/charge. These are the facts and your coninuing statement that m/z is almost exclusievely used is POV with no bases on references. The reference below prove this fact. Please accept what is, not what you wish to be true.
I don't know who you are but I assume you are the same guy as before. Yes, yes, yes, yes ,yes for thelast time the use of m/q is absolutely and undeniably common and near universal within the field of mass spectrometry when directly addressing physical problems, instrument design, explanations of the physics of mass spectrometers etc. I have never ever said anything else. It is however an undeiable fact that in the non-physical aspects of mass spectrometry, data collection, data interpretation, gas phase chemical reactions and the like m/z is near universal. My references are the entire volumes of all major mass spectrometry journals: [www.asms.org journal of the american society of mass spectrometry], European Journal of Mass Spectrometry, International Journal of Mass Spectrometry and Ion Processes, Journal of Mass Spectrometry and more. As well as IUPAC, the nomenclature governing body for chemistry.-- Nick Y. 17:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
In the physics of mass spectrometry m/q is used we are all agreed. It is only in the x-axis usage that there is any debate.-- Nick Y. 21:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Please give us one reason why x-axis should be labeled differently from what the physical mass spectrometers actually measure? -- 195.186.211.54 07:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
See above.-- Nick Y. 19:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
85.0.31.211 said:
Kermit Murray responds:
I completely agree. If you check the history of the article you will see that this m/z discussion is relatively new. An even more lengthy m/z discussion was added by someone who thought m/z should be there exclusively. Recently I considerably shortened the m/z discussion but it is still too long. Unfortunately m/z is used in completely different ways and to have a neutral POV all those must be addressed. Also, the mass spec part in general is too long. All that should be there is one line explaining that mass-to-charge ratio is measured with instruments called mass spectrometers. However, I do not see any section where it says that m/z is wrong. I can see sections where it is stated that m/z is used in different ways and that these do contradict each other, which, however, is not POV. I cannot see any section where it says that m/z is wrong. Could you please indicate what section you mean?
I agree with Kermit Murray too. I also agree with "195.186.211.54" that m/z should not be present to the exclusion of others. I think that the true physics definition (not Th or m/z) should come first and foremost. In terms of proportion the physics definition is so obvious and straight forward that it barely needs a definition, much less significant explanation. There isn;t much that is confusing about it. Mass-to-charge ratio in physics isn't its own entity separate from other quantities but simply a ratio of two quantities. If mass spectrometry did not exist with its unconventional definition this page would not exist. It think part of the POV check is the disproportionate advocacy of the unit Th which is very obscure, mass spec only and not accepted by any body of authority. Again I would propose disabiguation. Put the one line in the physics article (exclude all other references to Th in non-mass spectrometry sense) have a disambiguation page. On the mass spectrometry page there should be a lengthy explanation of m/z and how it relates to m/q with a one line reference to Th with the proposed definition. That would be representative of proper proportions. Th is not used in physics and is rare in mass spectrometry and is not an accepted unit at all. The only problem I see with disambiguation is that the physics page will be about two sentences, but I would be happy to see a long physics page, let's just not mix things up and confuse everyone.-- Nick Y. 18:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I have requested mediation due to ongoing and unrelenting advocacy. Please check the mediation page:
Based on the response of the mediator and your continued beligerant advocacy I am inclined to proceed more aggressively for disciplinary action against you. I would prefer that you understand how your opinion, as mine, does not matter. We are here to represent facts not advocate.
-- Nick Y. 20:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the article according to proposals of mediation and Kmurray.
I'm not sure about the path of forging ahead. I however welcome your changes and think it is a great improvement. The only major problems left are a couple of sentences and organization: misrepresentating Th and the derision of m/z left over from before. Since I have another level headed editor, who has chosen to try to improve the article I will make an effort to improve while trying to approach consensus. I think that the article is pretty close to being complete and accurate as of now and if it remains approximately as is (with improvements) then I think the POV check could be removed (what do you think Kmurray?). Please note that by complete and accurate I do not mean that I agree with any of it on a fundamental, philosophical or personal level. It is an accurate representation of facts. In terms of proportion it is fairly close with some over representation of m/z and even more over representation of Th. It however seems as I said before that the problem of proportional representation is more that there is not a hell of a lot to say about the physical m/q. If the physical m/q could be expanded about 10 fold and the m/z section expanded about 2 fold and the Th sentence remains then that would be about proportionate. Alternatively we could shorten the Th section but then we would have a sentence fragment and not explain it well.-- Nick Y. 16:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, your definition is in contradiction with the IUPAC definition of m/z. Therefore it is your POV and I had to remove it. If you put it back I will ask for a mediator. Also, mass spectrometry is only one of many fields using mass-to-charge ratio. As Kmurray correctly stated, mass spec does not deserve as much space in the article and especially not two titles.
"In mass spectrometry, when presenting data, it is common to use the symbol m/z. Unfortunately the m/z is not clearly defined and it is even controversal wether it denotes a mass-to-charge ratio."
This should not be here. I think the History section should be moved to the top, and the history of m/z, along with a brief discussion of its problems, should be at the end of that section. Ryan4 16:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
If everyone's happy, I'd like to propose that I close the mediation case and take the POV warning from the top. Ryan4 17:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
That is fine with me. I have not yet included any discussion about the problems of m/z, as you suggested. I will let you do it, otherwise Nick will go ballistic. -- Kehrli 17:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I am still not satisfied. However I think that we are closer now that we have removed most of the POV from the article and that the Th proponents are no longer editorializing. There is now only misrepresentation of facts. The remaining issues:
To correct this in a way that is not reverting and hoepfully approaching consensus I have included the only thing we can agree on regarding m/z and given Th appropriate weight ( only a reference). Perhaps this is leading to disambiguation?? Maybe the one m/z line should link to a "mass-to-charge ratio (mass spectrometry)" article?? I can live with the article with one m/z sentence and only the Th reference. Any more inclusion of an obscure unaccepted unit is not acceptable to me. The fact that mass spectrometry is a relatively minor area in which the mass to charge is used is fine with me. I will not debate this.
I wonder who else here other than me has actually read Cook's article. Has anyone here other than me had a conversation with the man? I've had dinner with him and partied with him as well. He's not a friend or anything but I've heard him explain his position and respect him greatly. I think everyone else here misunderstands his intentions.
I have added a sentence to the end of the history section as suggested by Ryan4. It does seem to me that the history section is for the most part about mass spectrometry, not that I object. I have always said that m/q is simple and mass spectormetry nomenclature requires much more explanation. Again another argument for disambiguation. I think a whole article could be written about mass spectrometry usage of mass-to-charge ratio, since it is confusing. It could use a more thorough explanation, with examples etc. How it is spoken etc. With this we could be more inclusive of Th too.
I would like to offer to write a more extensive section on mass spectrometry usage with m/z including some of it's short comings and criticisms. I would also like to offer to include Th in this appropriately. However this would take a dispropotionate amount of space according to some, which I can not completely disagree with based purely on proportion. If the physics section was vastly larger maybe we could cover the nuances of mass spectrometry usage in a thorough, clear and inclusive way.
-- Nick Y. 21:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick writes:
Nick, please read the IUPAC orange book. Their definition is different from yours. Their definition of m/z is "mass number divided by charge number" which is indeed dimensionless. Your definition (mass divided by charge number), however, is not dimensionless but of dimension mass. Even though I agree that your definition is better than the IUPAC definition, it is your POV and should not be here. I have in the mean time realized that your knowledge about metrology is too superficial to understand the difference, but I will call a mediator if you include your wrong definition in any article. Ryan, please explain to Nick the difference between his m/z and the IUPAC m/z. I tried it for week and failed to explain him.
-- Kehrli 09:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
There is an article on mass spectrometry already. So, if you want to add something to this article, then make sure you're not just being redundant. I don't think any more discussion on Th is needed since it is non-standard. More emphasis should be placed on the fact that m/z is the IUPAC standard, and sentence with the link to IUPAC needs to be cleaned up (formatting-wise). Also, someone should clean up the math so that the article is consistent. E.g. in some places there is [m/q] written out like that, in other places the correct is used.
Ryan4 Talk 00:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ryan, [m/q] means "units of the quantity m/q". This is the notation given by ISO 31-0 and accepted by IUPAC. [Q] means "unit of quantity Q", and {Q} means "numerical factor of quantity Q", . You find this in the IUPAC green book. There is no cleanup needed, the notation is consistent. Also, units are not in italic fonts, therfore should not be within a math brackets. This is also following IUPAC and ISO. I had to change back your corrections.
-- Kehrli 09:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. I agree whole-heartedly on thomsons. My suggestion of more m/z discussion and examples and the original intention of including it in this artiicle is for the benefit of people new to mass spectrometry. A more detailed look for those that are confused. To me all of this is obvious and simple but I think the issue of mass spectrometry notation of mass-to-charge is confusing to the mass spectrometrist in training. I think the mass spectrometry article is in good shape (I've done a lot of editing myself) but it is so varied and complex of a field that including everything in one article is not helpful, especially if you look at all of the mass analyzers imagine it with a full physics explanation of each. I find that even the scientific community is unaware of many critcal nuances. I find that top notch scientists are unaware of things like that multiply charged ions are common in some forms or that giant 300,000 Da protein complexes are studied whole with mass spectrometry or that mass spectrometry is not necessarily quantitative. This particular article was intended (wrt to mass spectrometry) to be explanatory and informative to those needing a little more help. The basic definition of m/z is in the MS article, but will the novice really get it without a little more help?? It is their loss that a more complete explanation can not be included as an aside since we are arguing over things they could care less about. At least they won't be misled, just ill-informed.
-- Nick Y. 04:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, I completely agree with your statements, but you are definitely not the right person to educate people about m/z, because you don't understand it either. I am not saying this to offend you, it is just my observation. You constantly mix up units and quantities and you still have not understood that a quantity requires a unit, that a quantity does not imply a specific unit, and that quantities should be computed without th eunits incorporated (all this according to IUPAC). Your writing will confuse any mass spectrometrist, because it is full of errors. For example, see your m/z definition which is not in line with the IUPAC definition.
-- Kehrli 09:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ryan, please tell Nick that he should stop vandalyzing the article. Especially he should let the definition of the Th in there, including the reference. He may not like it, but the thomson is in a officialy referenced paper.
-- Kehrli 09:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Kehrli- "an officially refernced article" An officially referenced article about a non-official, unaccepted suggestion to mass spectrometrists from 15 years ago. A suggestion does not a standard make. And yes it was to mass spectrometrist specifically. Again have you read the article?
Kehrli- removing non-standard unaccepted notation from the article, at least unitl we can agree on its proper place, is not vandalism. Ryan4 has already indicated that its inclusion any more than I gave it in its last edit would be misleading and disproportionate, given that it is an obscure non-standard notation. "I don't think any more discussion on Th is needed since it is non-standard. More emphasis should be placed on the fact that m/z is the IUPAC standard" I have given thousands upon thousands of references for the use of m/z from twenty years ago to the present day and offical sanction from the nomenclature governing body. You have given one article which I have read and have personally spoken to the author about but is simply a "suggestion" only to the small group that comprises analytical mass spectrometrists. I personally like the idea, but it is only that at this phase. Any greater inclusion is misleading and confusing.
Kehrli- I would like to invite you to write a short explanatory parargraph which will be helpful to the practicing mass spectrometry novice. It needs to be non-editorial and not advocate the unit Th which I hope we have all agreed is a minor footnote (no matter how appealing or potentially useful or consistent). It should explain to the novice how to compute an m/z ratio from the expected mass and charge of an ion and how it is written in the overwhelming majority of mass spectrometry literature. In what circumstances m/z is used. Also how it is spoken in speaking to an audience. This should reflect common usage and help the novice to effectively use the current standard notation according to current usage. The issue of to what or if we should all change to something different is beyond the scope of this page. Simply let the casual (scientific) reader effectively use this standard. I do not object to a small discussion of units as long as it is helpful to the novice reader to gain some sort of greater understanding of how to effectively use the standard. I would ask that you do it here on the talk page and that we discuss it thoroughly before putting it on the article page. Efforts to undermine the standard are not helpful to the novice reader. This includes references to non-standard usage or presentation of conflicts that will only confuse the reader. Later we might talk about a small section on some of the conflicts etc. on some sort of advanced area but not in this section. This one is informative and about use of the standard MS notation. Perhaps you can do this more effectively do this than me?? From your statements above you seem to be unwilling to make sense of the current standard, only to male it look as incomprehensible as possible, accentuating its shortcomings (which it does have) at every possible point.
-- Nick Y. Nick Y. 10:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, the ISO is the organisation that can set up standard units. The IUPAC does not have this authority. It ony can give recommendations to its members, the chemists. The ISO has not endorsed the Th. Nor has it endorsed m/z, nor the unit e. Unforunately, mass spec faces the situation where it has to use non-endorsed units, unless m/q is indicated in kg/C which, we agree, is endorsed but unpractical. There are many units in Wikipedia which are not endorsed. There is even a page against using endorsed unit (anti-metrisaton). Fact is: Th is used by some people and therefore it should be mentioned. I suggest you and I do no longer change the article without Ryan's permission.
-- Kehrli 12:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, your suggestion about me making a page about m/z in mass spectrometry: I appreciate your suggestion and I will love to do it. However, you have to realize that the issue is more complicated as you think it is. The problem is that the orange book m/z contradicts to both, the IUPAC green book and the ISO standards, which both are more important documents than the orange book. The deeper reason is that m/z is a misconception, and this misconception is the only reason why m/z seems so complicated. In a fair discussion I would have to mention that fact. I would have to say that m/z very widely used, but it contradicts to ISO and IUPAC green book. And I know that you don't want to hear this and you would be very unhappy with my writing. Look, we are in a dead lock, and the origin of the dead lock is that IUPAC has published a orange book that contradicts both, its green book and the ISO standards. We won't be able to resolve this dead lock, because it is beyond our scope. What we can do is the following: we can show to the Wikipedia readers exactly what is going on, we can show them: here is this quantity, it is widely used and it is even recomended by some mass spectrometrists organization, but it contradicts to the larger picture given by by ISO and the IUPAC. And I can show them in detail where the contradiction is. This will help all mass spec people to understand why m/z is so confusing. I am ready to make such a document with you, but it is only possible if you open your mind and if you read the literature and if you dive into the formalisms required by ISO. Otherwise it is just a waste of my time.
-- Kehrli 12:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, the thomson is widely used even by people that use m/z. Look here for examples:
Removing widely used units from Wikipedia is vandalism. People that are not familliar with the thomson should be able to look it up on wikipedia, even if it is not recomended by IUPAC. Please accept the fact that the thomson is used by a lot of chemists because it makes sense and because it complies to the procedures of ISO, even though it is not recommendet by IUPAC. For some people complying with ISO is more important than complying with IUPAC. Accept this, please.
Nick - you wrote:
This is missleading: the Th does not change the "m/z nomenclature". It changes m/z from a dimensionless quantity into a well behaving quantity with dimensions. This is more than just nomenclature. Please correct your scentence to be less missleading.
I just found that IUPAC is drafting a new definition of m/z. Here it is:
My critique:
Well that seems like a quite sensible definition that they are drafting. As I have said many times I would like to include Th. I however strongly object to the way in which you choose to include it. It amounts to advocacy. I have consistently mentioned it and given it significant room (for a non-standard, unexcepted unit). You want to include it within the main explanatory text. That is simply wrong and misleading. I would like to propose some priorities:
I think there should be no doubt about the order of these priorities. First SI, second non-SI accepted units, third MS specific standard, lastly and least completely unofficial non-standard notation. Please consider if this is a reasonable priority list to you.
I would point out to you that the Th references you have given do not conform to your standards, they are m/z in Th. I have seen many non-standard combinations such as this. That does not mean it should take priority. It is an interesting and even important side notet that people do not alway comply to the standards. I would also point out that your references are MS specific and therefore should at the veryleast only be mentioned within the context of MS. Again I have given tens of thousands of references of the standard usage of m/z. Try finding tens of thousands of references for Th.
-- Nick Y. 00:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, look, the discussion with you is quite useless since you mix up the things. Th is a unit and can be used with any quantity of dimension mass/charge. Wether you call the the quantity m/q, m/e, m/z, m/Q really does not matter. Your remarks are embarassing. It is the equivalent of arguing wether the unit meter can be used with symbol l (for lenght), d (for distance), r (for radius), x (for spacial dimension). Your claim that Th should only be used with m/z is like claiming that the unit meter should only be used with l, but not with r and x. It is a ridiculous discussion on a Kindergarten level. You obviously have no knowledge about metrology and the concepts of quantities and you have painted yourself into a circle that does not allow you to give in.
I did not say that it could not be used with m/z. It is you who said that the correct usage was m/q (Th). As a matter of fact that is what Cooks suggested. I personally don't have any more problems with this particular usage than any other. I was only pointing out that your call for using m/q or even better m/Q seems to be taking second place to Th. I thought the best part of your argument (which is completely irrelevant to writing an encyclopedia entry as I have emphsized endlessly) was the use of a standard accepted symbol for charge not the use of a non-standard obscure unit that seems less useful than Da/e. -- Nick Y. 17:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Kehrli- What you are doing is called an edit war. The mediator has specifically indicated to us that any further inclusion of Th would be disproportionate. You are specifically ignoring his very specific conclusion. It is fine to try to argue with him about it but my reverting the article to what he said was correct, proportionate and acceptable is in no way vandalism. Your intial editing of it back to what was deemed by him to be disproportionate is closer. If you are unwilling to participate in this mediation we can elevate this to official action where you may be banned and not have the opportunity to try to sway anyone. Again I recognize that there is a place for your minority view but it is not in the main body of this page above and beyond the accepted standard. As you pointed out I personally have included the unit Th. I am only interested in accurately representing the facts. For the hundreth time I will say again: I personally am an advocate of change and sympathitic to your cause, but that does not change our responsibility as editors not to advocate or misrepresent. If you want to add the misrepresentative text please ask the mediator first and propose it here. I am getting closer to elevating this dispute because you have proven to be unrelenting in your advocacy, just a little slicker.
-- Nick Y. 00:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick - fact is: if someone reads an article that includes the Th and he does not know what it is and wants to look it up on Wikipedia, he NEEDS the definiton 1 Th == 1 u/e. Hence leave it there. Exactly because the thomson is not widely used it needs to be there. If it were very common, everyone would know it and there would be no need to define it.
As I have said I am absolutely willing to include it but it must be proporitonate to the current standard m/z. (again not that I am a big fan of m/z, but that is irrelevant) As long as you will not allow the standard to represented any more than it is now the non-standard unaccepted unit Th needs to be proportionate which in this case is just a footnote.
-- Nick Y. 17:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, the Th needs to be defined so that people who come here understand what it is. The m/z, however, is not even a mass-to-charge ratio. Therefore it does not deserve any mentioning on this page. The only reason it is here is because there are some people who wrongly believe it is a mass-to-charge ratio. Therefore the Th deserves much more representation than the m/z.
IUPAC is indeed drafting a new set of mass spectrometry terms and definitions. Here is a link to the project page: Standard definitions of terms relating to mass spectrometry. I am chair of the task group that is assembling the updated glossary and I am interested in any constructive comment on this issue.
The article is improved from a previous version I read, but it is not neutral. The point of the first paragraph seems to be that the field of mass spectrometry stands apart from others in their use of the m/z designation. The remainder of the article discusses only mass spectrometry and none of the techniques parenthetically mentioned in the first paragraph. Thus the article is not about the measurement of mass and charge in physics and physical chemistry, but it is about what to call the x axis of a mass spectrum. Therefore, I suggest that the mass spectrum entry, rather than being merged with mass spectrometry, be kept and the mass-to-charge ratio entry be merged with the mass spectrum entry. A good discussion of the elements of a mass spectrum will naturally include a discussion of mass-to-charge ratio.
The current IUPAC Gold Book Definition is also recommended by the American Society for Mass Spectrometry ( Price 1991):
David Sparkman in his Mass Spectrometry Desk Reference ( ISBN 0966081323) has a good critique of m/z, m/e and the thomson unit (p 27 and 28). He calls m/z a symbol and not an abbreviation (as IUPAC does) and notes that m/z is a “mass spectrometry neologism” that he finds “unfortunate.” In his view, the correct notation would be u/z, but he doesn’t show much hope of it being adopted. He objects to a unitless thomson, which he describes as “having caught on with a fringe faction of the mass spectrometry community.” He objects to the m/e notation as archaic and implying that the mass be divided by the unit charge.
On the other hand, McLafferty in his Interpretation of Mass Spectra ( ISBN 0935702253) considers the Thomson an acceptable unit and merely notes that m/e has also been used in place of m/z.
The bottom line is that most everyone in the mass spectrometry community agrees that the m/z terminology isn’t the greatest, but we are probably stuck with it. An NPOV article will acknowledge that m/z is the accepted standard and that the thomson unit is accepted by some, rejected by others and not widely used.
Kermit: if everyone agrees that the m/z terminology isn't the greatest then, in your position, you should do something about it and draft a better definition that is according to ISO 31 and the IUPAC green book. I can help you in doing this. The current definition is just not good enough. Please look how other fields of science define their quantities: they use formulas. Using just words is not up to a scientific standart.
Kermit: the IUPAC definition says explicitly that m/z denotes a quantity. Hence it needs to keep to the rules of IUPAC green book, even if m/z is a abbreviation.
Kermit: the IUPAC definition says explicitly that m/z has been called mass-to-charge ratio. This means that it is no longer considered a mass-to-charge ratio. Therefore, and here I agree with you, m/z should no longer be in the mass-to-charge ratio article. It should be moved somewhere else. Your suggestion is ok with me. Your current draft also does not mention that m/z is a mass-to-charge ratio. The fact that m/z is dimensionless (according to your definition) actually excludes it from being a mass-to-charge ratio, because mass-to-charge ratio is per defintion not dimensionless, but has mass/charge dimension.
Kermit: I don't know what Sparkman means with a unitless thomson, but I can hardly believe that he said such a contradictionary thing. The thomson is a unit, not a quantity and therefore per definition cannot be unitless. Only a quantity can be unitless. If Sparkman would have said that, it would show his complete ignorance about the ISO 31 terminology, and I don't think he is that ignorant.
Kermit: I would like you to understand that your comitee is not working in empty space. There is the ISO 31 and the IUPAC green book to which your definitions should comply. I am well aware this would mean some bigger changes and it might even offend some (less flexible) people in the mass spec community, but please, please, bring mass spectrometry back in line with the bigger picture of metrology. Please, go and get advice from one of the ISO 31 cometee members, they will help you drafting a modern, consistent definition of m/z which complies with international standards. In the long run this will help mass spectrometry tremendously.
Kermit: the mass spec community indeed stands appart from the other scientific communities using the mass-to-charge ratio. Most other communities use the symbol m/q or m/Q for this quantity, and all agree that it is not domensionless but of dimension mass/charge. The reason why they use the sumbol m/q instead of m/z is because the m and the q symbols directly follow from the Lorentz and Newton equations, which are always written with the internationally accepted symbol q or Q for charge. The m/z is almost exlusivley used in mass spec. This is unfortunate, since obviously it would be better if the mass spec community would keep to the international standarts established by ISO and IUPAC which clearly recommend m/Q for mass/charge. Since the instrument used to actually measure mass-to-charge ratios are called mass spectrometers, MS needs a significant representation in the mass-to-charge article. This is why there is so much MS in the article and, for example, so little REM. Electron microscopists use the quantity mass-to-charge ratio, but they do not measure the mass-to-charge ratio. This is why MS needs to have a larger representation. (Side note: It is very unfortunate that the mass spec community decides to use a dimensionless quantity instead of the mass-to-charge ratio, which to measure they were invented for, but we cannot change this (well, in fact you could, but it seems to me you don't want to). Hence we need to live with this.
Kermit: mass-to-charge ratio cannot be merged with mass spectrum, because mass-to-charge ratio is a quantity that is used by many different scientific fields, whereas mass spectrum is specific for mass spectrometry. For example someone working on electron microscopy uses the mass-to-charge ratio, but never uses or sees a mass spectrum. Claiming the mass-to-charge ratio exclusively for mass spectrometry would not be neutral, it would be POV.
Kermit: I think the article is very neutral, because it does not favor the mass spectrometry notation over the notation of the many other users of mass-to-charge ratio. Please explain in more detail why in your POV the article is not neutral.
Kehrli,
If you will formulate your suggestion as a concise glossary entry according to IUPAC Guidelines [11] I will be happy to circulate it among the mass spectrometry terms Task Group.
Regarding NPOV, I stand by my above comments, which are intended as constructive criticism. The salient issue is what you call the x-axis of a mass spectrum.
Kermit - you wrote:
Kehrli & Kermit,
Kehrli here is your great opportunity to advocate. I agree with everything that Kermit Murray said. And I agree with Kehrli's sentiment of disdain for m/z. I support him 100% in presenting his ideas to the mass spectrometry terms Task Group. In the search for improvement all ideas are welcome. Kmurray's comments about the state of the debate is very accurate. Kehrli's comments about the state of the debate are way out there in some fantasy world. The point that Kehrli is advocating is not an unreasonable point to advocate and his support is reasonable. As I have said I sympathize if not agree. The problem here in this article is that Kerhli chooses to advocate his POV rather than give an accurate reporting of the state things. He should advocate to the mass spectrometry terms Task Group and NOT HERE. If his POV is or is not correct is irrelevant here. I think Kmurray's suggestion about separating the physical and mass spectrum usage by merging the MS part with mass spectrum is a good one. (btw the inclusion of things other than MS was just a retorical device used by Th advocates to some end?? That is why there is nothing more on it) We will need a link to it from this article and disabiguation of some sort. Please can we do a good job of writing an encyclopedia entry. There is no hope of doing this until advocacy stops.
-- Nick Y. 17:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I have done all of tha work needed to merge this article with mass spectrum except deleting this article. Mass spectrum now adresses all of the mass spec issues that used to be covered here. I am in favor of deleting this article since I see it as redundant; however I do not wish to invite advocacy at
Mass spectrum so if there is a desire to keep this article as a physics article that is fine with me. As a physicist it seems unnecessary and irrelevant as well. Just my input.
-- Nick Y. 19:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Kehrli- This article is now yours to mislead as many people as you would like. The only thing I ask is that you not remove the diambiguation to mass spectrum. I will also insist on the biased article tag remain. I am reporting your behavior to the authorities. Remember that the history is all saved with your blatant bias as well as your disingenuous slick rhetorical changes. Please constrain your advocacy to this one page.
-- Nick Y. 21:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, - the mass spectrum article is quite good, you have done a good job. The only thing that you should improve is to state that the m/z as defined by IUPAC does not comply with ISO 31 nor with the IUPAC green book nor with the IUPAP red book. If you would include these facts, it would be a very neutral and balanced article.
Done, no problem.
-- Nick Y. 20:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
In order to avoid confusion, the mass spectrometry M/Z is written in capital letters in the following. For the same reason, units and constants are written in bold font, quantities are written in italic font.
Currently the IUPAC orange book defines M/Z the following way: M is the mass number, defined by the mass m divided by the mass unit dalton:
Z is the charge number, defined by the charge q divided by the elementary charge unit e.
and therefore M/Z becomes:
or, when sorting quantities and units:
The ISO established quite strict rules for dealing with quantities. These rules are listed in the document ISO 31 on quantities and units, which by large parts is based on the Document IUPAP-25 published by the IUPAP. IUPAC adopts the same rules in its IUPAC green book.
This means all three organizations agree with the following notation of the quantity mass:
This means a mass quantity has the symbol m and consists of a pure numerical factor n and a mass unit like for example Da. (Da, though not a SI unit, is accepted by ISO.) The same for charge would yield:
This means a charge quantity has the symbol q and consists of a numerical factor z and a unit e. We use z to indicate that the numerical factor is always a whole number when using the elementary charge unit e. Here we have the problem that the elementary charge unit e is not directly accepted by ISO. (However, ISO accepts eV, therefore e is semi-allowed by the construct eV/V.)
In general, ISO wants quantities to be expressed as a product of a numerical factor and a unit, which is written as:
where {} means "numerical factor of" and [] means "unit of".
Note that a mass-to-charge ratio quantity according to ISO is expressed as the fraction of a mass quantity and a charge quantity:
According to ISO, graph axis should best be labled with name, symbol and unit. The numerical factor, however, is not in the label but is the axis itself. For example, a axis denoting a mass should be labeled with "m (kg)" or "m (Da)". The numerical factor n is what is read from the axis itself.
Coming back to the M/Z, we try to identify the terms. Above we had:
The term Da/e is straight foreward, it must be the unit. However, what is m/q? It is not a numerical factor. Regrouping brings more clarity:
Now we can easily identify that m/q represents the symbol for the quantity, M/Z represents the numerical factor, and Da/e represents the unit.
resolves to
this is very close to the situation when just dividing the mass quantity and the charge quantity:
We found that the dimensionless M/Z that mass spectrometrists so much like to use, is in fact just the numerical factor of the quantity mass-to-charge ratio m/q. This means that according to all conventions, mass spectra x-axis should not be labeled with the symbol of this numerical factor, but with the quantity symbol (which is m/q), and units in brackets. For example: "m/q (Da/e)", and not "M/Z".
Those who read this article be careful. Some editors here are deleting tags labeling it as disputed when it continues to be disputed on content and bias.-- Nick Y. 19:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Rockwood and Cooks are misquoted: see Talk:Mass_spectrum. If NPOV is going back on, then accuracy should be tagged until fixed. Also, the article should be in Category:Mass_spectrometry. Note the link in Mass_spectrometry#Mass_analyzer.
There is no misquotation, Rockwood and Cooks [12] clearly state 1 Th = 1 u/atomic charge and not 1 Th = 1 u/atomic charge number. Please stop with your NPOV. Therefore tag was removed.
Kehrli - The source that you give quotes Rockwood and Cooks as saying "This [mass-to-charge] unit would be defined as the quotient of mass in units of u and the number of charges, z." Seems to be exactly contradictory to what you are saying. I will not argue with you but the accuracy dispute tag is not to be removed until there is consensus. Unilateral removal is very uncool. Please don't do it.-- Nick Y. 19:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Nick, I have seen that. Unfortunately even Cooks seems not able to come up with a coherent definition. However, in this case, I think it is fair to say that the formula is what counts. For three reasons:
Therefore there is no doubt what Cooks and Rockwood actually meant. Look, the two of us had a valid agreement on the article. I am sorry that we are back in the fighting mode, but it is really not my fault. Kmurray restarted it. He would better get his act together and improve the IUPAC definition instead of enforcing misconcepted mass spec terminology onto the wider scientific community at Wikipedia.
It is clear that Cooks and Rockwood mean u/z, not u/e as you indicate in the article. For reference, here it is: Cooks & Rockwood Rapid Commun. Mass Spectrom. 1991, 5, 93.
Kamurray, no - this is not clear at all for the following reasons:
The only (rather unimportant) error they make is they use z as a symbol for the quantity charge, instead of the symbol q or Q. This usage, however, is rather common in mass spectrometry. You find it in many reviewed articles.
Thanks for posting the copy, it clearly shows that I was right. Unfortunately Cooks used confusing wording, but at second sight it is very evident what he meant. Please, please, do your job and get the IUPAC to abandon the "dimensionless" m/z and have them accept the thomson in a way that complies to the ISO 31 standard. The current mess is really pitiful.
Perhaps I can at least partially clear up what was meant in the Cooks and Rockwood article. I am Alan Rockwood, the second author of the article. I can't speak for Cooks, but for my part it was my intention that units of mass and charge be included in the definition, i.e. 1 Th = 1 unified atomic mass unit per elementary charge, or equivalently, 1 dalton per elementary charge. Thus, a C+ mass spectrum would show a doublet with peaks at 11.99945 Th and 12.00281 Th, where the dimensions of the Th are mass divided by charge. (Note: in this calculation I included the mass of the electron, so the peak for carbon-12 is not at an integer number.)
The mass-to-charge ratio article is a primary source for mass spectrometry nomenclature and should be deleted based on No original research standards. Those portions that are not primary research should be merged with the mass spectrum article. The article arose from m/z misconception (deleted: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/M/z misconception) and in edits of the mass spectrometry page (see Talk:Mass_spectrometry#Could_the_m.2Fq_vandal_please_stop). Mediation Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-04-10 mass-to-charge ratio resulted in a POV fork between mass-to-charge ratio and mass spectrum. The part of mass-to-charge ratio that did not relate to mass spectrometry was supposed to go in mass-to-charge ratio and the mass spectrometry part was supposed to go in the mass spectrum article. Unfortunately, all but one sentence of the mass-to-charge ratio article relates to mass spectrometry. The remainder either duplicates existing information in the mass spectrometry entry or constitutes original research that is a primary source for mass spectrometry nomenclature (it is referenced five times in the mass spectrometry article and the article's novel proposal to replace the accepted m/z with the new m/q notation makes this Wikipedia entry the top Google hit for 'm/q "mass spectrometer"). This notation is in conflict with the definitions that exist in the peer-reviewed literature (e.g. American Society for Mass Spectrometry [13] and IUPAC [14] - for an simplified overview see Ken Busch's Spectroscopy Magazine article: [15]), books (e.g. McLafferty ISBN 0935702253, Dass ISBN 0471330531, Siuzdak ISBN 0126474710, Sparkman ISBN 0966081323, Grayson ISBN 0941901319, etc.) and on-line glossaries (e.g. The Little Encyclopedia of Mass Spectrometry [16], Pharmaceutical Mass spectrometry glossary [17], Base Peak Mass Spectrometry Glossary of Terms [18], Spectroscopy Magazine Glossary [19], Shimadzu Mass Spectrometry Glossary [20]). The POV and accuracy of the article have been repeatedly flagged and the author has each time removed these flags. The article makes many valid points and contains some novel suggestions on how to improve the existing nomenclature. However, advocating this non-standard point of view in a Wikipedia entry is counterproductive and will only serve to cloud the issue and make consensus building within the mass spectrometry community more difficult. -- Kmurray 03:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC) --
He is telling the story from the perspective of a small part of the scientific community which has established its own nomenclature which is not used by the rest of the scientific community, nor is it compatible with the international standards issued about exactly this topics, the ISO 31. Here are the facts:
The truth shall make you free, but first it shall make you angry. (Anon)
relevant documents:
The facts about this article are:
This article is redundant and not needed unless it is expanded to include material not covered in other articles ( mass spectrum, mass spectrometry etc.)
The facts about this article are:
I am looking for someone with a physics background to help me improve this article, sort of as a counter balance to my mass spectrometry bias. There has been disagreement about this article before so I would like the input and consensus of another reasonable editor with a different background. I am still not certain that this article is totally necessary. -- Nick Y. 16:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is an unbiased opinion from a physicist and mass spectrometrist: it does not need any degree in physics to understand that m/z is against all internatinal conventions established by ISO 31, the IUPAP red book as well as the IUPAC green book. According to those three organizations m/Q must be used instead of m/z. If anything m/z should be deleted.
Look, Nick, the only person that behaves childish is you. You are not even willing to think about the issue. You are just looking for backup for your misguided predjudice. Otherwise you would just read the IUPAC green book. What you are looking for is all in there. Can you read? If you can, please read the document carefully and you will see that m/z is against all rules. But what am I talking - you are not ready to question your own predjudices and therefore there is no chance that you will ever understand the issue.
And please - keep the flag removed as long as you don't have an argument what fact should be wrong. Okay?
Nick, you are mixing two things up.
Comparison: The same problem consists with many other physical properties. Lets take electrical potential: some people use U (the correct SI term) and some people use the incorrect V as a symbol. Both parties, however, use V (volt) as the unit.
Conclusion: The thomson is independent wether it is useed with m/z or m/q. Unfortunately, since you don't even understand the difference between a physical quantity and a unit, you won't understand the argument. And one more thing: mass spectrometry is a part of physics. Therefore, whenever Th is used in MS it is also used in physics.
The constant addition and removal of the disputed tag is quite unhelpfull. Most of us no longer see what the issue is. I have removed reference to units in the introduction as that may be seen as slightly POV. The section on units is more balanced. So if anyone still thinks this article is disputed would they please clearly state below here what exactly is disputed. It seems OK to me. -- Bduke 23:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Clarification of dispute for Bduke
The dispute is over the section:
"Cooks and Rockwood proposed the unit thomson (Th) for the mass-to-charge ratio:
1 Th == 1 u/e == 1 Da/e.
For example, for the ion C7H72+, m / q = 45.5 Th or m / q = 45.5 Da/e"
My issues with it are:
1) It is disproportionate and non-representative being that there are some 20+ papers that use the units Th ever written compared to thousands using m/z. I am very willing to be flexible on this since I think that the proposal to change units is notable. I have personally given it significant space in my own writing of the mass spectrum article and think it should be included appropriately.
2) It is false that Cooks and Rockwood proposed the use of this unit in the manner used. They specifically suggested its use with the m/z notation.
3) The suggestion was mass spectrometry specific and should be stated as such. Every single paper using m/z (Th) was a mass spec paper. It simply is not used outside of this small field at all and only ~20 times within this small field over how many years?
4) There are zero, zip, ziltch papers that use the notation/units "m/q (Th)" in this combination. Not that there is a rule against it. Should we really be the first?
5) Overall the unit Thomson is a notable suggestion that was never adopted by any governing body (and specifically rejected) and used only a few dozen times in history.
There are also several important points left out of this article:
1) In the field of mass spectrometry m/z is near universally used as the abcissa of a mass spectrum and is required by most journals. The use of m/q within this field specifically in electrodynamics problems in standard units (see below) are normal.
2) In electrodynamics mks or cgs SI based units are near universally used along with some use of atomic units. Never, ever, ever Th.
To summarize, I strongly object to the representation of m/q (Th) being disproportionately and erroneously represented at the expense of the units and notation currently in use by the scientific community (SI units, atomic units and m/z).
I am afraid you have both added more noise and heat than light to the situation. Also by both of you playing tag with the dispute tag, neither of you are showing good faith in trying to resolve this problem. Nick, you do seem to be not covering the difference between dimensions and units. To the anon user, I say this. If you going to get into a dispute like this, then get a user name, do not insert your comments in the middle of someone else's comments and sign your comments. OK, lets us look at the dispute:-
It seems to me that the dispute is about a very small part of this article and that reasonable people should be able to resolve it.
A final point. Could the article actually say what the IUPAC Green book and the ISO standard actually says about the "mass-to-charge" ratio, not about mass and charge separately. I think this would be helpfull. If there is a dispute in IUPAC about this it should be documented in the article in a NPOV way.
It is indeed clear that you are not too far apart, but I wish you would use more good faith. Nick, it is not helpfull to talk of Kehrli's disruptive behaviour, and Kehrli, you are perhaps pushing your point too hard. Units do cause a lot of dispute, but they are not the real science. Let us put them in perspective. I'm terribly busy prior to leaving for 6 weeks in UK, so I will have to be brief.
Thanks for both your responses. I am going to think about this for a while, certainly overnight. Tomorrow I am running a Science Week activity at the Melbourne Museum all day so it may be the day after tomorrow that I respond. -- Bduke 07:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I am still concerned about the common usage of this term and the prefered units in the electron optics and related (i.e. non-mass spec) fields. In my limited experience in pure electrodynamics (non-MS) I remember solving problems involving m/q but do not remember using Da/e. I think this needs to be validated. I can't find it in the literature with a quick search but then it is a hard search term. Additionally, although I know that m/q enters into the physics of many of the fields listed (other than mass spectrometry) I have yet to see evidence that there is use of the term "mass-to-charge ratio" in these fields or that it is somehow notable. In fields that involve electron optics I see no advantage to using Daltons, and no point in stopping at the m/q relationship since the mass and the charge are known. Why not just solve the problem and be done. Accelerator physics and ion optics I get stopping at m/q. I still would think that for the most part SI units would be more handy, except where these fields morph into mass spectrometry or are used as a component thereof.-- Nick Y. 17:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
This article is way too opinionated and carries way too much of someone's POV rather than presenting an issue of some debate in a balanced fashion. It would be nice to see it present the strong arguements for change while fairly representing m/z as a widely accepted standard that has great utility.-- 134.9.228.11 18:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I have made great effort to accurately and fairly represent all points of view and the support for each viewpoint while accurately representing reality. If you are going to cover a specific POV please do it within the context of representing the POV not as advocacy. There is room for all POV's just don't represent opinion as fact. Yes, there are lots of facts that can add to make a good arguement but that doesn't mean that it changes the nomenclature conventions. You may be of the opinion that the nomenclature should change to be more logical and consistent with physics but that does not mean that it has changed already. Also please discuss what might be more balanced if you disagree with the balance. Wholesale deletion of comments is vandalism. Wholesale deletion (or reversion) of articles without discussion or consideration of other POVs is also vandalism. Notice that all of the facts previously presented are for the most part intact or even improved. -- 134.9.228.11 22:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, thanks for respecting the space and the criticism. A couple of pointers though. The entries are supposed to written in a factual, encyclopedic style. I have edited your editorial, argumentative style in a few places. Please refrain from editorializing in the article. Do it here. A not necessary but perhaps helpful piece of advice for you: If you are arguing a point (here on the discussion page) it is not effective rhetoric to insult those who you are trying to convince. I personally ignore insults and look for your argument; however even so I find that it contains a lot of rhetoric and is more interested in winning an argument than in accurately representing the facts. I have no interest in an argument. In fact I really don't care about what should be done only about facts. I have searched for constructive criticism in your long critique here and have made some improvements to the article based on them. --Thanks In terms of criticism I can offer you (other than style and avoiding combativeness) I am actually very concerned that your usage of m/q is incorrect or at least slightly misrepresentative. I actually have a signifcant physics background and I have never once used m/q in the units that you are using. They seem entirely mass spectrometry specific. I think it is great to present how some have proposed changing the mass spectrometry specific units to be more consistent with physics, but let us not forget about the physicists and engineers who use exclusively kms or gms units for the most part. This brings up a point that you are free to dismiss but thinking as a physicist I never really considered the mass-to-charge ratio to be anything other than just the mass divided by the charge and of no particular importance over any other ratio and thus not worthy of it's own wikipage. It was simply the necessary solution to some physical problems. It held just as much importance to me as say the charge-to-mass ratio and less importance than the distance-to-time ratio. Velocity was worthy of it's own word. I also believe from my limited understanding of other spectroscopies where m/q plays a role that kms or gms units are used. The m/q section seems to pass over this fact very briefly and could be misleading. Perhaps a separate sections for "m/q" and "m/q (mass spectrometry)"? Remember we are presenting facts and are not advocates. We can present factual representations of contraversies and how and why change has been proposed, but keep it real.--
134.9.228.11
19:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I did not know that Th is commonly used in physics? Is this true? I certainly understand that is could be used but I am unaware that it is in common usage. From your edits thus far I tend to think that you think it should be, but that does not make it true. My understanding is that it is not even an accepted unit, only a proposed unit. Also the use of m/q in at atomic units??--
134.9.228.11
19:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Th is not commonly used in mass spectrometry. --
134.9.228.11
19:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
You take me all wrong. I understand perfectly well why they recommended the change. I've talked to Graham Cooks about it myself and heard his spiel many times. I am not opposed to the idea either. It however simply is not true that it is in common usage. It is a proposed unit. Btw if you ask Graham cooks what field he is in he says that he is an analytical chemist and will veheminantly reject any other labels.-- 134.9.228.11 20:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I "get it" and I think he makes a compelling point. There are some definate advantages, consistency and clarity to come from such a definition. It is, however, a proposed unit which is not in common usage. That seems to be what you do not get. The fact is that m/z is the law of the land from IUPAC and every MS journal. I'm not arguing what is the better definition simply reporting the fact that there is an established accepted system and a proposed system. I think it is great that you are so enthusiastic about contributing to the justification of the proposed system but it doesn't mean it's day has come and the wiki page should be changed to reflect a decision by IUPAC or all of the MS journal simulataneously switching to Graham Cook's proposed definition.-- 134.9.228.11 20:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should detail that (with references) in the history section. I think much of what you just said is true minus the editorializing. No amount of logic will make me believe something that isn't true. It might convince me personally of the logic behind the proposed new unit, which I am to begin with (no convincing required) but it won't make me believe that it is in common usage today or has the support of IUPAC. Maybe it could be included in the article as something like.
"A small but vocal group of mass spectrometrists, primarily of a more physical background, advocate the change to the proposed Th unit as standard based on logic and consistency with other unit systems; however, with ubiquitous use, IUPAC support, a long history of use and significant interia such a change away from m/z has not occured to any significant degree. Currently all major mass spectrometry journals require m/z as standard and the definition of Th remains as a proposed definition without the support of any governing bodies."
-- 134.9.228.11 23:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The use of m/q in mass spectrometry in SI units is common when adressing physical problems such as instrument design.
I have moderated it to sometimes. It is important for exactly the reason that m/q does not indicate units and it is common for students to make the mistake of mixing units or using physics constants in SI units. I don't have a table of physical constants in anything except SI units. Well I do have them in grams-centimeters-seconds come to think of it but those are SI just not standard SI.-- 134.9.228.11 20:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I think you may have misread the IUPAC definition it says that m/e not m/z is not recommended. m/e was used (probnably moreso than Th) at one point and is not recommended.-- 134.9.228.11 20:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I never said it was a unit I only quoted IUPAC "The use of m/e is not recommended". May be it is not recommended for exactly that reason. -- 134.9.228.11 20:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I still don't get your use of atomic mass units as a acceptable unit of m/q??-- 134.9.228.11 20:29, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Take mass: mass is a quantity for which the symbol m should be used. The dimension of m is mass. The units of m can be any unit of dimension mass, e.g. kg, lb, ounce, amu, Me, whatever you want. m does not imply a unit, but it implies a dimension. Now lets take speed: symbol v, dimension is L/T which stands for length/time. Units can be km/h, m/s, mm/s, c, whatever. Now same for mass-to-charge ratio: symbol m/q (or m/Q is even more correct), dimension is M/Q, and unit can be anything with the correct dimension, e.g. amu/C, kg/C, u/e, Th, whatever.
The problem is that you are saying that the mass-to-charge ratio can have the units [u], which is toatlly and completely inconsistent with everything you've said and is wrong IMO too. I think it may just be a typo?? Maybe you ment to say "with" atomic units rather than "in" atomic units.-- 134.9.228.11 21:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
m/z is the currently accepted IUPAC nomenclature for mass-to-charge ratio in the field of mass spectrometry. Nothing more to do but define it, demonstrate its usage and address its history so that those who are interested can understand it. End of argument.
I think you may have misread the IUPAC definition it says that m/e not m/z is not recommended. m/e was used (probnably moreso than Th) at one point and is not recommended.-- 134.9.228.11 20:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
"The abbreviation m/z is used to denote the dimensionless quantity formed by dividing the mass number of an ion by its charge number." There is your is'. There is no thomson definition in the gold book at all.-- 134.9.228.11 20:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is how th orange book defines mass-to-charge:
"Mass/charge ratio
(m/z) ratio." [1]
Why don;t you show me where the green book defined mass to charge ratio?? I understand that the green book defines mass and charge and as I said before as a physicist mass-to-charge is just a ratio of these two. The green book says nothing about thomsons or "mass-to-charge". It is a reference for physical chemistry and does not have a section on mass spectrometry. Physically it is logical to have the mass-to-charge be the mass divided by the charge but the thomson isn't exactly that either it is the mass divided by the number of charges and incorporating the value e into it's definition as a scaling factor. It effectively makes e=1 and it disappears. As I have said before there is room for unit thomson in this page just don't missrepresent it as common or official. It has a very good supporting argument for adoption.-- 134.9.228.11 21:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Again you are advocating rather than reflecting reality. I may think that we should base our mass scale on hydrogen and I may have a compelling case but that doesn't make it so. You may disagree with IUPAC but that doesn't change what the universally accepted international governing body of chemical nomenclature says. You may think that analytical chemists are a bunch of hacks and that everything is actually physics and that chemistry does not really exist but that does not make it the prevailing consensus. I would also like to point out that the 45.5 Th is just as much a (physically defined) mass-to-charge ratio as m/z 45.5. The unit thomson does not exist in physics. If you think it does I would like to see the IUPAP definition. It is an invention of an analytical chemist! It is not even an accepted unit in analytical chemistry, although it is occasionally used. The only time I have seen it used is by Graham Cooks himself (an analytical chemist). The only truely correct and consistent use of m/q in physics is to use SI units, as SI units are always prefered over non-SI units. If you were a true purist you would be arguing for SI units. After all they are accepted and used by every scientific field all over the world and are specifically designed to unify the units used throughout diverse fields.-- 134.9.228.11 20:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Look, I'm tired of your circular argument. I've told you several times that I understand the argument for Th. I understand how m/z has inconsistencies, blah, blah, blah. I'm not advocating anything, except to accurately represent the factual truth, not what is "right". You seem to want to represent a half-truth. I agree 100% that there are problems with m/z wrt its definition and consistency and I think this should be accurately represented. It is true that people have pointed this out and there are real inconsistencies. It is also true that Graham Cooks has proposed the unit thomson, and you have properly cited it. It is also true that certain recommendations of IUPAC are inconsistent and these inconsistencies can be accurately represented, as facts. I think that Cooks has made a very salient point, but my opinion does not matter and neither does yours. We are here to represent facts not opinion, nor are we here to advocate. FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS FACTS. The language used can represent accurately and fairly two sides of a debate but not advocate. Also we should accurately represent the state of the debate. This is not the place for such a debate to take place. You seem deadset on debating the merits of the Th with me. This is not the place for that sort of thing. We should be debating what the state of the debate is and how to accurately represent it. You seem to think each time I say something like "m/z is recommended by IUPAC" you seem to think that I personally believe that IUPAC is correct in recommending it. What I or you personally thinks is way beyond what an encyclopedia is about. For that matter what is "right" is also outside the scope. What you are doing is like saying that "the US did not invade Iraq, because there were not weapons of mass destruction to begin with." What I am saying is equivalent to "The US invaded Iraq. After several years of searching for weapons of mass destruction little evidence of their existance has been found and the general consensus today is that they did not exist at least in any quantity. Because of this the justification for the invasion remains a contentious issue..." An encyclopedia is not a place for debate but a place for generalized facts. I can only reach a consensus with you if you can bring yourself within the scope of writing an encyclopedia entry. If you are going to persist I do not see that you are contributing to wikipedia.
"NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Wikipedia principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. This includes reader-facing templates, categories and portals. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable"." "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each."
Failure to comply with wikipedia policies and guidelines is serious and can get you banned. I think I am done with negotiation. I will contact a mediator unless you would like to start debating the facts. I know you feel that there are many facts on your side and that you are trying to state them but you need to parse what are facts and what is an argument. Realize that I agree with most of your facts. E.g. --Cooks proposed the unit thomson, based on logic and consistency with the rest of the scientific community. But I disagree with opinion such as --m/z should not be used. And I strongly reject falsehoods such as the unit thomson is commonly used in physics. This is the last time I will address this issue with you without a mediator unless you choose to adhere to the letter and spirit of the wikipedia policies and guidelines.-- 134.9.228.11 23:40, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Based on our agreement "The use of m/q with Th, atomic units, SI units is common in physics and related fields." has been changed to "The use of m/q in atomic units and SI units is common in physics and related fields."--
134.9.228.11
18:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with: "Whereas m/q is used as a symbol for the well defined physical quantity mass-to-charge ratio" I don't think that m/q is well defined when including Th and m/e. I think the physics definition is well defined: the mass divided by the charge in units of mass over units of charge. The MS usage is mass-to-"number of elemetary charges" even with Th, that is what the number represents. In MS usage the mixing of units and constants makes it poorly defined. I think that this could be stated as a position or an opion but not in the factual way that it is stated here. -- 134.9.228.11 18:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I have made several changes to the article that I hope you see as improvements and consistent with your statements above. SOme reorganization as well.-- 134.9.228.11 18:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Think about what the Th represents. By incorporating the constant e into its definition the net result is that the number represents the mass divided by the number of elemetary charges.
Therefore it is a unit that represents the mass per elemetary charge.
Here is a formalized derivitzation since you are of that mindset:
So to compute whatever Th represents you divide the mass by the number of elementary charges that the ion is carrying:
m/q = n [m/q] = n Th
Why do you think that m/z is numerically identical? The unit Th is a unit of mass per charge number not mass per charge.
It is very confusing and you are confused because they are folding a constant into a unit which is technically very uncool. The true units are Da/"the number of elementary charges". Why are you always dividing your masses by whole numbers? Because it is the charge number!
Also, you are a very good example for eliminating the z. z is so easy to mix up with q that it would be better to drop the z entirely. z just confuses those analytical chemists that are not so used tp coping with units. This, of course, is my POV, but you very much back this POV. Here are the facts: Th = Da/e with dimension mass/charge. (as stated above, e has the dimension charge) and not mass/(charge number) which would have the dimension mass (since charge number is dimensionless).
Another deritivation:
Therefore:
NOT
I apologize for the slopiness of units and constants but that is your source of confusion.
The unit Th times the mass/charge number is equal to the mass to charge. Not the unit Th nor the mass/charge number is the true (physics defined) mass to charge ratio.
The unit Th is a unit with dimensions [mass]/[charge number] but since the charge number is unitless its units are (Da/C) since the constant e=1.602177x10^19 C is hidden in the Th.
I know this is a very confusing explanation ...
... but that is what you get when you start mixing units and constants.
The bottomline intuitive explanation is that in the end the number before the Th is the mass divided by the charge number!!!
I think what would be correct from your philosophy would be to report every number as, for example:
m=91, number of elementary charges=2
that way we would not mix units and constants and it would be a mass to charge. This is however unwieldy and all of it is implied in both m/z and Th. Any way this arguement is moot except in regard to charcterizing the unit Th, which you imply is a unit of the physics defined mass to charge. -- 134.9.228.11 22:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I also disagree that m/z is not a mass-to-charge ratio while m/q in Th is. (m/q in units of mass and charge clearly is) They are numerically and dimensionally identical.
If you have a case and an issue it is about units not dimensions. The charge number has the dimension of charge!
It is however unitless because it is just a number.
Charges are quantized. What are the units of "there are five fingers on my hand"? You could call it "number of fingers" but that is not necessary.
They are either both a mass-to-charge ratio or not.
They are after all interchangeable and numerically identical.
I would vote for are. Numerically they are both the mass divided by the number of charges and as the number of charges is representative of the total charge it is a form of a mass to charge ratio. You can argue about units but if they are the same numbers they represent the same thing.
I hope we can clear this up soon. It is about the silliest argument to be talking about two completely interchangeable systems both of which have essentially the same problems hidden in different ways.
One mixes constants with units and the other gives up and leaves off the units all together.
But they represent exactly the same thing in exactly the same way. One just happens to be the officially accepted notation.-- 134.9.228.11 01:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
"Are you really really sure that they define the Thomson for a dimension mass/(charge number)?"--------------------- Yes the proposed definition is "1Th == 1 u/atomic charge"-- 134.9.228.11 01:50, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
let us start with the following equation on which we hopefully can agree: .
Now it is you turn to
good luck. (Hint: you are allowed to use all my formulas - this should make it easy for you)
m/z can be defined identically.
m/z is almost:
however, since the "units" are not units they are dropped by convention and you get
m/z is:
A more complete definition of Th:
Again the numbers are identical.
There is simply a difference in notation.
m/q (Th) creates a new unit to deal with needing to extricate the number e from the final number and m/z just drops units all together
and extricates the number e in the process. As I have said before my personal opinion (and you seem to only care about what should be done, not what is convention) is that there should be a unit e. with the following definition:
However e is not a unit but a constant. But again my opinion does not matter.
--
134.9.228.11
17:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Conclusion: you still failed in giving a solid definition of m/z! Please try again without illegal unit dropping.
I strongly object to your making this a purely mass spectrometry article. There are other uses of mass-to-charge that are the physically defined mass-to-charge (which you mistake m/q in Th to be). Please stop with your agenda and represent the facts, apropriately and proporitonally. Mass spectrometry is not the only usage of this phrase! Please give appropriate room to the much more common m/q. I don't think that it requires alot simply a clear separation between the usages and clear definition. The MS part requires much more explanation whereas the physical part is intuitive and obvious but don't mix the two.-- 134.9.228.11 18:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Here I would like to elaborate how m/z can be made consistent. Start with a quantity:
now, we set z = q/e and we get
here are the facts:
Big advantage of this approach: a mass spectrum is indeed a mass spectrum, not a mass/charge spectrum. Disadvantage: z is known only in the small mass spec community.
My POV: this is probably how m/z was originaly meant, before the wrong definition in the IUPAC gold book confused everyone. Many people still use it in exactly this way. m/q (Th) is probably still better, but m/z (Da) is also very good. m/z should also get a good name. I envision something like "mass per net charge carrier" or "mass per charge number".
What do you think? Can you live with that?
To Do List:
While I disagree with your to do list. (We should discuss first.) In terms of your personal POV I personally agree very much with your thinking, but that is irrelevant. One point you should think about more is "Big advantage of this approach: a mass spectrum is indeed a mass spectrum, not a mass/charge spectrum." No it still is a mass-to-"number of elemetary charges" spectrum. Your doubly charged ion will not show up at its mass in Da. There is simply no way to make things nice and clean and useful. Even the Th approach has its stickiness and it is a stretch to claim that it is consistent with the rest of science (incorporating a constant into a unit). I personally think that we should redefine the SI unit of charge to be one elemetary charge and create the unit e to replace C (or redefine C==e*mol), solving our problem and solving some others as well. While we are at it some other changes that would be good are to make the mole == 10^24 exactly, adopt the gram as the primary SI unit and make it equal to one (new) mole of hydrogen. It's fun to dream.-- 134.9.228.11 18:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
The concept of the dimensionless mass-to-charge ratio m/z is a misconception and should no longer be used. Use m/q instead.
The IUPAC green book about Quantities, Units and Symbols in Physical Chemistry explains:
some examples:
In the following it will be demonstarted that the m/z used by so many mass spectrometrists does not comply to above fundamental instruction about the measurement of physical quantities.
In this article symbols for a physical quantity are written in italics (e.g. q), units are written in bold (e.g. kg). n represents a numerical value that is a real number and z represents a numerical value that is a whole number.
The abbreviation m/z is used to denote the dimensionless quantity formed by dividing the mass number of an ion by its charge number. It has long been called the mass-to-charge ratio although m is not the ionic mass nor is z a multiple or the elementary (electronic) charge, e. The abbreviation m/e is, therefore, not recommended. Thus, for example, for the ion C7H72+, m/z equals 45.5.
1) Mass spectrometers measure the physical quantity mass to charge ratio which is not dimensionless. This is a simple fact.
2) There are some dimensionless physical properties. The most famous one is the Reynolds Number Re and the most common in mass spectrometry is the mass resolving power R = m/dm. The characteristic of such dimensionless properties is that it does not matter what system of units you use: whether you use kg or Da, m/dm will be the same. This is not the case for the mass-to-charge ratio: whether you use kg or Da makes a big difference.
3) If a non-dimensionless physical quantity is measured we should use units. This is exactly what units were invented for. Units are a cultural achievement like the wheel or the language and they should be used.
Let us investigate where the z is coming from: start with Q = n x [Q] and use it for a charge:
Now, if [q] is the elementary charge, n will always be a whole number. Whole numbers are often indicated with z. Therefore in this special case we could write:
This means z is not the symbol of charge as it is used by mass spectrometrists (m/z), it is only the numerical factor belonging to the unit to form a quantity. Hence z is the number that you read from the x-axis and should not appear in the label. Compare this with a charge measurement:
Now, if you label a x-axis that represents a charge, do you label it with “z” ? No! It is labeled with q (C) or q (e). Consequently we should eliminate the z because it is the source of the whole confusion.
Here are the basic facts:
Note: as stated above, the symbol m/q is completely independent on the units [m/q] that are being used. Analogously it is common to use the the symbol for mass m with kg as well as with lb:
Now we have settled the question of the symbol. Let’s turn to the second part, the units to be used. Obviously, everyone in MS wants to measure the mass in u and the charge in elementary charge units. Therefore
becomes:
Hence, the unit mass spectrometrists use is [m/q] = u/e. That is by the way what everyone uses, even when they claim to a dimensionless m/z.
Note how clumsy it is to say: "the ion C7H72+ has a mass-to-charge ratio of 45.5 atomic mass units per elementary charge units".
The problems with above approach are:
(A) is a severe problem: everyone uses a unit that does not exist officially. There are four ways out:
(3) is unpractical, (2) requires (1), therefore there is no way around (1)!
Problem (B) is best solved by adopting the dalton Da
So we end up with:
where 1 Th (thomson) = 1 Da/Mi
but this is too far ahead for the mass spec community
Say:
It is great to see this debate, but the main article needs a neutral point of view. Please outline the facts in the main article and editorialize in the Talk/Discussion page. In particular, it would be useful to get some details of the shift from e/m to m/e to m/z, which must have happened in the early to mid 20th century. Many of the critical papers are now on-line. Yes, m/z is a clunky notation, but if you want to change it, you will need to do some research and lay out some solid arguments. I'm willing to listen and carry any reasonable arguments forward.
Here's a starting point:
As the "counterpoint" to the m/q (Th) argument I would like to say that being a logical, reasonable and consistent notation is not enough to make it the accepted standard and worthy of dominant or even substantial representation in the article. I (personally) generally agree with the argument for change to a "better" notation/unit system; however, the only factual representation of this is that m/q (Th) is a logical and well thought out alternative to m/z but is extremely rare in usage and not recognized by most people, journals, governing bodies. m/z is close to universal in its domain. An important point that also needs to not be misrepresented is that m/q (Th) is computed in an identical way to m/z, and they only differ in notation. They are both the mass in Da divided by the number of elementary charges. This differs from the physics and most other usage which is the mass divided by the charge in accepted units of mass and charge. Let's try to inform the casual (scientific) reader with factual information rather than convince the expert to reasess convention.--
Nick Y.
17:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick:
Considering all this, m/z is already overrepresented in the mass-to-charge page. Science does not exclusively consist of mass spectrometry. If the mass spectrometry community wants to go a separate route than everyone else, they may do this but they should not pretend it is the only way, and they should stop enforcing their opinion on everyone else in the scientific community. 85.0.31.211 10:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Alright here is my repsonse to each point, please understand what I am saying and don't assume that I disagree:
Of course this is most often computed by dividing the mass by the number of charges.
(4)
(5)
(6)
(7)
Points I would like to get consensus on (a short list to start to make it tractable):
-- Nick Y. 21:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are my comments to your points, where I disagree:
(3)
(4)
(6)
(7)
Then my comments to your points of consensus:
(A)
(B)
(C)
(D)
-- 195.186.211.54 07:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
(A) You do not seem to get the distinction between the physics of mass spectrometry and the chemistry of mass spectrometry. As long as you try to include the chemistry part of mass spectrometry in the physics part of mass spectrometry you will not understand the distinction. In physics as in the physics of mass spectrometry m/q is used. In the chemistry of mass spectrometry (interpretation of data) m/z is used, m/q in Th is used by some but is not common or accepted. The point I was trying to reach consensus on is that the physics usage is clear and we can agree, this includes the physics of mass spectrometry because it is physics. I am of the impression that you are going to fail to make this distinction and argue for unification, however the facts are that no matter what you think is right it is convention to use m/z in the chemistry of mass spectrometry and m/q in the physics of mass spectrometry and we should represent facts not arguments for change. "The separation of MS and physics is very artificial and random." maybe so however it exists and we all have to live with it. It is not for you and I to decide how to partition science. I think you should recognize that it is a field at the interface of physics and chemistry that paritially includes both disciplines. I will reword it so that we might reach consensus:
"There is agreement on the usage of m/q or m/Q in physics (excluding mass spectrometry). We also agree that within the field of mass spectrometry the physics usage is used for physical problems."
I think we should also agree that the m/z convention is used with chemical problems within mass spectrometry. But you seem to disagree. Be aware that by agreeing with this you are not saying m/z should be used simply that it is.
(B)You retort is not relevant to what I was proposing we agree upon which only concerns how they are computed from the mass and charge of a given molecule. We can deal with units next. What I am proposing we agree on is that they are computed in the same way regardless of units. They are both the mass in Da divided by the number of elementary charges (please, please, please do not become semantical about this). They are the same number because they are the same ratio of numbers.
(C) So you agree. "m/z is recommended by IUPAC as standard notation in mass spectrometry"
(D) I agree. Restating to include your input and qualify it:
"The unit Th is not recognized by IUPAC, IUPAP or any governing body that recommends nomenclature. It is a unit proposed more than a decade ago by Cooks, who we all respect, but it is not in particularly common usage today. It is however used by some. Additionally its limited usage is confined almost exclusively to mass spectrometry. There is no reason why this proposed unit could not be useful in other fields. However the traditional m/q or M/Q notation in accepted units is near universal outside of mass spectrometry."
-- Nick Y. 17:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, of course I agree that m/z is used by some mass spectrometrists. This is why I included a lengthy section about m/z in the mass-to-charge article even though the definition of m/z is unclear and it is not even sure that m/z is a mass-to-charge ratio. This long discussion, by the way, is now the reason why Kmurray thinks m/z is over represented (he is right, but shortening would make people like you mad).
(B) You still seem not to understand the concept of a physiscal quantity and you treat it as a numerical value. Fact is: if you compute physiscal quantities this includes both, the numerical factor and the units. Therefore, when you say" computing the mass-to-charge ratio (in Th) of a molecule and computing the m/z value of a molecule yields the same result", then you are definitely wrong. Correct would be: "the mass-to-charge ratio (in Th) of a molecule and the m/z value of a molecule are different physiscal quantities which, however, always have the same numerical factors". (Note: this, of course, is only valid under the assumption that m/z is defined according to your or IUPAC definition. If m/z is defined as a mass-to-charge ratio with units u/e, amu/e, Da/e, as many people do, then m/q and m/z are indeed identical. Once more we have the problem that m/z is ill defined and used inconsistently.)
(D) I propose: "The unit Th is a synonym for Da/e and is not recognized by IUPAC, IUPAP or any governing body that recommends nomenclature. It is a unit proposed more than a decade ago by Cooks, who we all respect, but it is not in particularly common usage today. It is however used by some. The composed notation amu/e, u/e, Da/e, which represent the same unit as the Th, are much more widely used. Additionally its limited usage is confined almost exclusively to mass spectrometry. There is no reason why this proposed unit could not be useful in other fields. However the traditional symbols m/e, m/q or m/Q for the quantity mass-to-charge ratio is near universal outside of mass spectrometry."
(E) the m/z notation is not endorsed by the International Bureau of Weights and Measures which is the standards Organization for units, and nor the General Conference on Weights and Measures, nor the International Committee for Weights and Measures have endoresd the m/z notation.
In ion optics m/q or m/Q is used. We all agree. No deabte here.-- Nick Y. 21:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Please give us one reason why chemists cannot use what everyone else uses. -- 195.186.211.54 07:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I do not have to. It is irrelevant. Nor do I care. If they can or should is not relevant to this article (or any wikipedia article) that is the reason for the POV check. I have never advocated should or could and have not taken a position except for the purpose of letting you know that my position is irrelevant too. The point of wikipedia is to represent what is. If you can not get this point and stop being an advocate I think that is grounds to ban you from wikipedia. -- Nick Y. 19:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, fact IS that m/z even among mass spectrometrists is not as predominant as you suggest it is. Your claim is only based on your personal POV. Look at the links below, if you don't believe it. Both, m/q and m/e ARE USED by mass spectrometrists. Thomson, the inventor of mass spectrometry, used m/e with dimension mass/charge. These are the facts and your coninuing statement that m/z is almost exclusievely used is POV with no bases on references. The reference below prove this fact. Please accept what is, not what you wish to be true.
I don't know who you are but I assume you are the same guy as before. Yes, yes, yes, yes ,yes for thelast time the use of m/q is absolutely and undeniably common and near universal within the field of mass spectrometry when directly addressing physical problems, instrument design, explanations of the physics of mass spectrometers etc. I have never ever said anything else. It is however an undeiable fact that in the non-physical aspects of mass spectrometry, data collection, data interpretation, gas phase chemical reactions and the like m/z is near universal. My references are the entire volumes of all major mass spectrometry journals: [www.asms.org journal of the american society of mass spectrometry], European Journal of Mass Spectrometry, International Journal of Mass Spectrometry and Ion Processes, Journal of Mass Spectrometry and more. As well as IUPAC, the nomenclature governing body for chemistry.-- Nick Y. 17:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
In the physics of mass spectrometry m/q is used we are all agreed. It is only in the x-axis usage that there is any debate.-- Nick Y. 21:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Please give us one reason why x-axis should be labeled differently from what the physical mass spectrometers actually measure? -- 195.186.211.54 07:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
See above.-- Nick Y. 19:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
85.0.31.211 said:
Kermit Murray responds:
I completely agree. If you check the history of the article you will see that this m/z discussion is relatively new. An even more lengthy m/z discussion was added by someone who thought m/z should be there exclusively. Recently I considerably shortened the m/z discussion but it is still too long. Unfortunately m/z is used in completely different ways and to have a neutral POV all those must be addressed. Also, the mass spec part in general is too long. All that should be there is one line explaining that mass-to-charge ratio is measured with instruments called mass spectrometers. However, I do not see any section where it says that m/z is wrong. I can see sections where it is stated that m/z is used in different ways and that these do contradict each other, which, however, is not POV. I cannot see any section where it says that m/z is wrong. Could you please indicate what section you mean?
I agree with Kermit Murray too. I also agree with "195.186.211.54" that m/z should not be present to the exclusion of others. I think that the true physics definition (not Th or m/z) should come first and foremost. In terms of proportion the physics definition is so obvious and straight forward that it barely needs a definition, much less significant explanation. There isn;t much that is confusing about it. Mass-to-charge ratio in physics isn't its own entity separate from other quantities but simply a ratio of two quantities. If mass spectrometry did not exist with its unconventional definition this page would not exist. It think part of the POV check is the disproportionate advocacy of the unit Th which is very obscure, mass spec only and not accepted by any body of authority. Again I would propose disabiguation. Put the one line in the physics article (exclude all other references to Th in non-mass spectrometry sense) have a disambiguation page. On the mass spectrometry page there should be a lengthy explanation of m/z and how it relates to m/q with a one line reference to Th with the proposed definition. That would be representative of proper proportions. Th is not used in physics and is rare in mass spectrometry and is not an accepted unit at all. The only problem I see with disambiguation is that the physics page will be about two sentences, but I would be happy to see a long physics page, let's just not mix things up and confuse everyone.-- Nick Y. 18:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I have requested mediation due to ongoing and unrelenting advocacy. Please check the mediation page:
Based on the response of the mediator and your continued beligerant advocacy I am inclined to proceed more aggressively for disciplinary action against you. I would prefer that you understand how your opinion, as mine, does not matter. We are here to represent facts not advocate.
-- Nick Y. 20:20, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the article according to proposals of mediation and Kmurray.
I'm not sure about the path of forging ahead. I however welcome your changes and think it is a great improvement. The only major problems left are a couple of sentences and organization: misrepresentating Th and the derision of m/z left over from before. Since I have another level headed editor, who has chosen to try to improve the article I will make an effort to improve while trying to approach consensus. I think that the article is pretty close to being complete and accurate as of now and if it remains approximately as is (with improvements) then I think the POV check could be removed (what do you think Kmurray?). Please note that by complete and accurate I do not mean that I agree with any of it on a fundamental, philosophical or personal level. It is an accurate representation of facts. In terms of proportion it is fairly close with some over representation of m/z and even more over representation of Th. It however seems as I said before that the problem of proportional representation is more that there is not a hell of a lot to say about the physical m/q. If the physical m/q could be expanded about 10 fold and the m/z section expanded about 2 fold and the Th sentence remains then that would be about proportionate. Alternatively we could shorten the Th section but then we would have a sentence fragment and not explain it well.-- Nick Y. 16:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, your definition is in contradiction with the IUPAC definition of m/z. Therefore it is your POV and I had to remove it. If you put it back I will ask for a mediator. Also, mass spectrometry is only one of many fields using mass-to-charge ratio. As Kmurray correctly stated, mass spec does not deserve as much space in the article and especially not two titles.
"In mass spectrometry, when presenting data, it is common to use the symbol m/z. Unfortunately the m/z is not clearly defined and it is even controversal wether it denotes a mass-to-charge ratio."
This should not be here. I think the History section should be moved to the top, and the history of m/z, along with a brief discussion of its problems, should be at the end of that section. Ryan4 16:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
If everyone's happy, I'd like to propose that I close the mediation case and take the POV warning from the top. Ryan4 17:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
That is fine with me. I have not yet included any discussion about the problems of m/z, as you suggested. I will let you do it, otherwise Nick will go ballistic. -- Kehrli 17:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I am still not satisfied. However I think that we are closer now that we have removed most of the POV from the article and that the Th proponents are no longer editorializing. There is now only misrepresentation of facts. The remaining issues:
To correct this in a way that is not reverting and hoepfully approaching consensus I have included the only thing we can agree on regarding m/z and given Th appropriate weight ( only a reference). Perhaps this is leading to disambiguation?? Maybe the one m/z line should link to a "mass-to-charge ratio (mass spectrometry)" article?? I can live with the article with one m/z sentence and only the Th reference. Any more inclusion of an obscure unaccepted unit is not acceptable to me. The fact that mass spectrometry is a relatively minor area in which the mass to charge is used is fine with me. I will not debate this.
I wonder who else here other than me has actually read Cook's article. Has anyone here other than me had a conversation with the man? I've had dinner with him and partied with him as well. He's not a friend or anything but I've heard him explain his position and respect him greatly. I think everyone else here misunderstands his intentions.
I have added a sentence to the end of the history section as suggested by Ryan4. It does seem to me that the history section is for the most part about mass spectrometry, not that I object. I have always said that m/q is simple and mass spectormetry nomenclature requires much more explanation. Again another argument for disambiguation. I think a whole article could be written about mass spectrometry usage of mass-to-charge ratio, since it is confusing. It could use a more thorough explanation, with examples etc. How it is spoken etc. With this we could be more inclusive of Th too.
I would like to offer to write a more extensive section on mass spectrometry usage with m/z including some of it's short comings and criticisms. I would also like to offer to include Th in this appropriately. However this would take a dispropotionate amount of space according to some, which I can not completely disagree with based purely on proportion. If the physics section was vastly larger maybe we could cover the nuances of mass spectrometry usage in a thorough, clear and inclusive way.
-- Nick Y. 21:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick writes:
Nick, please read the IUPAC orange book. Their definition is different from yours. Their definition of m/z is "mass number divided by charge number" which is indeed dimensionless. Your definition (mass divided by charge number), however, is not dimensionless but of dimension mass. Even though I agree that your definition is better than the IUPAC definition, it is your POV and should not be here. I have in the mean time realized that your knowledge about metrology is too superficial to understand the difference, but I will call a mediator if you include your wrong definition in any article. Ryan, please explain to Nick the difference between his m/z and the IUPAC m/z. I tried it for week and failed to explain him.
-- Kehrli 09:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
There is an article on mass spectrometry already. So, if you want to add something to this article, then make sure you're not just being redundant. I don't think any more discussion on Th is needed since it is non-standard. More emphasis should be placed on the fact that m/z is the IUPAC standard, and sentence with the link to IUPAC needs to be cleaned up (formatting-wise). Also, someone should clean up the math so that the article is consistent. E.g. in some places there is [m/q] written out like that, in other places the correct is used.
Ryan4 Talk 00:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ryan, [m/q] means "units of the quantity m/q". This is the notation given by ISO 31-0 and accepted by IUPAC. [Q] means "unit of quantity Q", and {Q} means "numerical factor of quantity Q", . You find this in the IUPAC green book. There is no cleanup needed, the notation is consistent. Also, units are not in italic fonts, therfore should not be within a math brackets. This is also following IUPAC and ISO. I had to change back your corrections.
-- Kehrli 09:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good. I agree whole-heartedly on thomsons. My suggestion of more m/z discussion and examples and the original intention of including it in this artiicle is for the benefit of people new to mass spectrometry. A more detailed look for those that are confused. To me all of this is obvious and simple but I think the issue of mass spectrometry notation of mass-to-charge is confusing to the mass spectrometrist in training. I think the mass spectrometry article is in good shape (I've done a lot of editing myself) but it is so varied and complex of a field that including everything in one article is not helpful, especially if you look at all of the mass analyzers imagine it with a full physics explanation of each. I find that even the scientific community is unaware of many critcal nuances. I find that top notch scientists are unaware of things like that multiply charged ions are common in some forms or that giant 300,000 Da protein complexes are studied whole with mass spectrometry or that mass spectrometry is not necessarily quantitative. This particular article was intended (wrt to mass spectrometry) to be explanatory and informative to those needing a little more help. The basic definition of m/z is in the MS article, but will the novice really get it without a little more help?? It is their loss that a more complete explanation can not be included as an aside since we are arguing over things they could care less about. At least they won't be misled, just ill-informed.
-- Nick Y. 04:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, I completely agree with your statements, but you are definitely not the right person to educate people about m/z, because you don't understand it either. I am not saying this to offend you, it is just my observation. You constantly mix up units and quantities and you still have not understood that a quantity requires a unit, that a quantity does not imply a specific unit, and that quantities should be computed without th eunits incorporated (all this according to IUPAC). Your writing will confuse any mass spectrometrist, because it is full of errors. For example, see your m/z definition which is not in line with the IUPAC definition.
-- Kehrli 09:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Ryan, please tell Nick that he should stop vandalyzing the article. Especially he should let the definition of the Th in there, including the reference. He may not like it, but the thomson is in a officialy referenced paper.
-- Kehrli 09:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Kehrli- "an officially refernced article" An officially referenced article about a non-official, unaccepted suggestion to mass spectrometrists from 15 years ago. A suggestion does not a standard make. And yes it was to mass spectrometrist specifically. Again have you read the article?
Kehrli- removing non-standard unaccepted notation from the article, at least unitl we can agree on its proper place, is not vandalism. Ryan4 has already indicated that its inclusion any more than I gave it in its last edit would be misleading and disproportionate, given that it is an obscure non-standard notation. "I don't think any more discussion on Th is needed since it is non-standard. More emphasis should be placed on the fact that m/z is the IUPAC standard" I have given thousands upon thousands of references for the use of m/z from twenty years ago to the present day and offical sanction from the nomenclature governing body. You have given one article which I have read and have personally spoken to the author about but is simply a "suggestion" only to the small group that comprises analytical mass spectrometrists. I personally like the idea, but it is only that at this phase. Any greater inclusion is misleading and confusing.
Kehrli- I would like to invite you to write a short explanatory parargraph which will be helpful to the practicing mass spectrometry novice. It needs to be non-editorial and not advocate the unit Th which I hope we have all agreed is a minor footnote (no matter how appealing or potentially useful or consistent). It should explain to the novice how to compute an m/z ratio from the expected mass and charge of an ion and how it is written in the overwhelming majority of mass spectrometry literature. In what circumstances m/z is used. Also how it is spoken in speaking to an audience. This should reflect common usage and help the novice to effectively use the current standard notation according to current usage. The issue of to what or if we should all change to something different is beyond the scope of this page. Simply let the casual (scientific) reader effectively use this standard. I do not object to a small discussion of units as long as it is helpful to the novice reader to gain some sort of greater understanding of how to effectively use the standard. I would ask that you do it here on the talk page and that we discuss it thoroughly before putting it on the article page. Efforts to undermine the standard are not helpful to the novice reader. This includes references to non-standard usage or presentation of conflicts that will only confuse the reader. Later we might talk about a small section on some of the conflicts etc. on some sort of advanced area but not in this section. This one is informative and about use of the standard MS notation. Perhaps you can do this more effectively do this than me?? From your statements above you seem to be unwilling to make sense of the current standard, only to male it look as incomprehensible as possible, accentuating its shortcomings (which it does have) at every possible point.
-- Nick Y. Nick Y. 10:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, the ISO is the organisation that can set up standard units. The IUPAC does not have this authority. It ony can give recommendations to its members, the chemists. The ISO has not endorsed the Th. Nor has it endorsed m/z, nor the unit e. Unforunately, mass spec faces the situation where it has to use non-endorsed units, unless m/q is indicated in kg/C which, we agree, is endorsed but unpractical. There are many units in Wikipedia which are not endorsed. There is even a page against using endorsed unit (anti-metrisaton). Fact is: Th is used by some people and therefore it should be mentioned. I suggest you and I do no longer change the article without Ryan's permission.
-- Kehrli 12:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, your suggestion about me making a page about m/z in mass spectrometry: I appreciate your suggestion and I will love to do it. However, you have to realize that the issue is more complicated as you think it is. The problem is that the orange book m/z contradicts to both, the IUPAC green book and the ISO standards, which both are more important documents than the orange book. The deeper reason is that m/z is a misconception, and this misconception is the only reason why m/z seems so complicated. In a fair discussion I would have to mention that fact. I would have to say that m/z very widely used, but it contradicts to ISO and IUPAC green book. And I know that you don't want to hear this and you would be very unhappy with my writing. Look, we are in a dead lock, and the origin of the dead lock is that IUPAC has published a orange book that contradicts both, its green book and the ISO standards. We won't be able to resolve this dead lock, because it is beyond our scope. What we can do is the following: we can show to the Wikipedia readers exactly what is going on, we can show them: here is this quantity, it is widely used and it is even recomended by some mass spectrometrists organization, but it contradicts to the larger picture given by by ISO and the IUPAC. And I can show them in detail where the contradiction is. This will help all mass spec people to understand why m/z is so confusing. I am ready to make such a document with you, but it is only possible if you open your mind and if you read the literature and if you dive into the formalisms required by ISO. Otherwise it is just a waste of my time.
-- Kehrli 12:27, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, the thomson is widely used even by people that use m/z. Look here for examples:
Removing widely used units from Wikipedia is vandalism. People that are not familliar with the thomson should be able to look it up on wikipedia, even if it is not recomended by IUPAC. Please accept the fact that the thomson is used by a lot of chemists because it makes sense and because it complies to the procedures of ISO, even though it is not recommendet by IUPAC. For some people complying with ISO is more important than complying with IUPAC. Accept this, please.
Nick - you wrote:
This is missleading: the Th does not change the "m/z nomenclature". It changes m/z from a dimensionless quantity into a well behaving quantity with dimensions. This is more than just nomenclature. Please correct your scentence to be less missleading.
I just found that IUPAC is drafting a new definition of m/z. Here it is:
My critique:
Well that seems like a quite sensible definition that they are drafting. As I have said many times I would like to include Th. I however strongly object to the way in which you choose to include it. It amounts to advocacy. I have consistently mentioned it and given it significant room (for a non-standard, unexcepted unit). You want to include it within the main explanatory text. That is simply wrong and misleading. I would like to propose some priorities:
I think there should be no doubt about the order of these priorities. First SI, second non-SI accepted units, third MS specific standard, lastly and least completely unofficial non-standard notation. Please consider if this is a reasonable priority list to you.
I would point out to you that the Th references you have given do not conform to your standards, they are m/z in Th. I have seen many non-standard combinations such as this. That does not mean it should take priority. It is an interesting and even important side notet that people do not alway comply to the standards. I would also point out that your references are MS specific and therefore should at the veryleast only be mentioned within the context of MS. Again I have given tens of thousands of references of the standard usage of m/z. Try finding tens of thousands of references for Th.
-- Nick Y. 00:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, look, the discussion with you is quite useless since you mix up the things. Th is a unit and can be used with any quantity of dimension mass/charge. Wether you call the the quantity m/q, m/e, m/z, m/Q really does not matter. Your remarks are embarassing. It is the equivalent of arguing wether the unit meter can be used with symbol l (for lenght), d (for distance), r (for radius), x (for spacial dimension). Your claim that Th should only be used with m/z is like claiming that the unit meter should only be used with l, but not with r and x. It is a ridiculous discussion on a Kindergarten level. You obviously have no knowledge about metrology and the concepts of quantities and you have painted yourself into a circle that does not allow you to give in.
I did not say that it could not be used with m/z. It is you who said that the correct usage was m/q (Th). As a matter of fact that is what Cooks suggested. I personally don't have any more problems with this particular usage than any other. I was only pointing out that your call for using m/q or even better m/Q seems to be taking second place to Th. I thought the best part of your argument (which is completely irrelevant to writing an encyclopedia entry as I have emphsized endlessly) was the use of a standard accepted symbol for charge not the use of a non-standard obscure unit that seems less useful than Da/e. -- Nick Y. 17:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Kehrli- What you are doing is called an edit war. The mediator has specifically indicated to us that any further inclusion of Th would be disproportionate. You are specifically ignoring his very specific conclusion. It is fine to try to argue with him about it but my reverting the article to what he said was correct, proportionate and acceptable is in no way vandalism. Your intial editing of it back to what was deemed by him to be disproportionate is closer. If you are unwilling to participate in this mediation we can elevate this to official action where you may be banned and not have the opportunity to try to sway anyone. Again I recognize that there is a place for your minority view but it is not in the main body of this page above and beyond the accepted standard. As you pointed out I personally have included the unit Th. I am only interested in accurately representing the facts. For the hundreth time I will say again: I personally am an advocate of change and sympathitic to your cause, but that does not change our responsibility as editors not to advocate or misrepresent. If you want to add the misrepresentative text please ask the mediator first and propose it here. I am getting closer to elevating this dispute because you have proven to be unrelenting in your advocacy, just a little slicker.
-- Nick Y. 00:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick - fact is: if someone reads an article that includes the Th and he does not know what it is and wants to look it up on Wikipedia, he NEEDS the definiton 1 Th == 1 u/e. Hence leave it there. Exactly because the thomson is not widely used it needs to be there. If it were very common, everyone would know it and there would be no need to define it.
As I have said I am absolutely willing to include it but it must be proporitonate to the current standard m/z. (again not that I am a big fan of m/z, but that is irrelevant) As long as you will not allow the standard to represented any more than it is now the non-standard unaccepted unit Th needs to be proportionate which in this case is just a footnote.
-- Nick Y. 17:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, the Th needs to be defined so that people who come here understand what it is. The m/z, however, is not even a mass-to-charge ratio. Therefore it does not deserve any mentioning on this page. The only reason it is here is because there are some people who wrongly believe it is a mass-to-charge ratio. Therefore the Th deserves much more representation than the m/z.
IUPAC is indeed drafting a new set of mass spectrometry terms and definitions. Here is a link to the project page: Standard definitions of terms relating to mass spectrometry. I am chair of the task group that is assembling the updated glossary and I am interested in any constructive comment on this issue.
The article is improved from a previous version I read, but it is not neutral. The point of the first paragraph seems to be that the field of mass spectrometry stands apart from others in their use of the m/z designation. The remainder of the article discusses only mass spectrometry and none of the techniques parenthetically mentioned in the first paragraph. Thus the article is not about the measurement of mass and charge in physics and physical chemistry, but it is about what to call the x axis of a mass spectrum. Therefore, I suggest that the mass spectrum entry, rather than being merged with mass spectrometry, be kept and the mass-to-charge ratio entry be merged with the mass spectrum entry. A good discussion of the elements of a mass spectrum will naturally include a discussion of mass-to-charge ratio.
The current IUPAC Gold Book Definition is also recommended by the American Society for Mass Spectrometry ( Price 1991):
David Sparkman in his Mass Spectrometry Desk Reference ( ISBN 0966081323) has a good critique of m/z, m/e and the thomson unit (p 27 and 28). He calls m/z a symbol and not an abbreviation (as IUPAC does) and notes that m/z is a “mass spectrometry neologism” that he finds “unfortunate.” In his view, the correct notation would be u/z, but he doesn’t show much hope of it being adopted. He objects to a unitless thomson, which he describes as “having caught on with a fringe faction of the mass spectrometry community.” He objects to the m/e notation as archaic and implying that the mass be divided by the unit charge.
On the other hand, McLafferty in his Interpretation of Mass Spectra ( ISBN 0935702253) considers the Thomson an acceptable unit and merely notes that m/e has also been used in place of m/z.
The bottom line is that most everyone in the mass spectrometry community agrees that the m/z terminology isn’t the greatest, but we are probably stuck with it. An NPOV article will acknowledge that m/z is the accepted standard and that the thomson unit is accepted by some, rejected by others and not widely used.
Kermit: if everyone agrees that the m/z terminology isn't the greatest then, in your position, you should do something about it and draft a better definition that is according to ISO 31 and the IUPAC green book. I can help you in doing this. The current definition is just not good enough. Please look how other fields of science define their quantities: they use formulas. Using just words is not up to a scientific standart.
Kermit: the IUPAC definition says explicitly that m/z denotes a quantity. Hence it needs to keep to the rules of IUPAC green book, even if m/z is a abbreviation.
Kermit: the IUPAC definition says explicitly that m/z has been called mass-to-charge ratio. This means that it is no longer considered a mass-to-charge ratio. Therefore, and here I agree with you, m/z should no longer be in the mass-to-charge ratio article. It should be moved somewhere else. Your suggestion is ok with me. Your current draft also does not mention that m/z is a mass-to-charge ratio. The fact that m/z is dimensionless (according to your definition) actually excludes it from being a mass-to-charge ratio, because mass-to-charge ratio is per defintion not dimensionless, but has mass/charge dimension.
Kermit: I don't know what Sparkman means with a unitless thomson, but I can hardly believe that he said such a contradictionary thing. The thomson is a unit, not a quantity and therefore per definition cannot be unitless. Only a quantity can be unitless. If Sparkman would have said that, it would show his complete ignorance about the ISO 31 terminology, and I don't think he is that ignorant.
Kermit: I would like you to understand that your comitee is not working in empty space. There is the ISO 31 and the IUPAC green book to which your definitions should comply. I am well aware this would mean some bigger changes and it might even offend some (less flexible) people in the mass spec community, but please, please, bring mass spectrometry back in line with the bigger picture of metrology. Please, go and get advice from one of the ISO 31 cometee members, they will help you drafting a modern, consistent definition of m/z which complies with international standards. In the long run this will help mass spectrometry tremendously.
Kermit: the mass spec community indeed stands appart from the other scientific communities using the mass-to-charge ratio. Most other communities use the symbol m/q or m/Q for this quantity, and all agree that it is not domensionless but of dimension mass/charge. The reason why they use the sumbol m/q instead of m/z is because the m and the q symbols directly follow from the Lorentz and Newton equations, which are always written with the internationally accepted symbol q or Q for charge. The m/z is almost exlusivley used in mass spec. This is unfortunate, since obviously it would be better if the mass spec community would keep to the international standarts established by ISO and IUPAC which clearly recommend m/Q for mass/charge. Since the instrument used to actually measure mass-to-charge ratios are called mass spectrometers, MS needs a significant representation in the mass-to-charge article. This is why there is so much MS in the article and, for example, so little REM. Electron microscopists use the quantity mass-to-charge ratio, but they do not measure the mass-to-charge ratio. This is why MS needs to have a larger representation. (Side note: It is very unfortunate that the mass spec community decides to use a dimensionless quantity instead of the mass-to-charge ratio, which to measure they were invented for, but we cannot change this (well, in fact you could, but it seems to me you don't want to). Hence we need to live with this.
Kermit: mass-to-charge ratio cannot be merged with mass spectrum, because mass-to-charge ratio is a quantity that is used by many different scientific fields, whereas mass spectrum is specific for mass spectrometry. For example someone working on electron microscopy uses the mass-to-charge ratio, but never uses or sees a mass spectrum. Claiming the mass-to-charge ratio exclusively for mass spectrometry would not be neutral, it would be POV.
Kermit: I think the article is very neutral, because it does not favor the mass spectrometry notation over the notation of the many other users of mass-to-charge ratio. Please explain in more detail why in your POV the article is not neutral.
Kehrli,
If you will formulate your suggestion as a concise glossary entry according to IUPAC Guidelines [11] I will be happy to circulate it among the mass spectrometry terms Task Group.
Regarding NPOV, I stand by my above comments, which are intended as constructive criticism. The salient issue is what you call the x-axis of a mass spectrum.
Kermit - you wrote:
Kehrli & Kermit,
Kehrli here is your great opportunity to advocate. I agree with everything that Kermit Murray said. And I agree with Kehrli's sentiment of disdain for m/z. I support him 100% in presenting his ideas to the mass spectrometry terms Task Group. In the search for improvement all ideas are welcome. Kmurray's comments about the state of the debate is very accurate. Kehrli's comments about the state of the debate are way out there in some fantasy world. The point that Kehrli is advocating is not an unreasonable point to advocate and his support is reasonable. As I have said I sympathize if not agree. The problem here in this article is that Kerhli chooses to advocate his POV rather than give an accurate reporting of the state things. He should advocate to the mass spectrometry terms Task Group and NOT HERE. If his POV is or is not correct is irrelevant here. I think Kmurray's suggestion about separating the physical and mass spectrum usage by merging the MS part with mass spectrum is a good one. (btw the inclusion of things other than MS was just a retorical device used by Th advocates to some end?? That is why there is nothing more on it) We will need a link to it from this article and disabiguation of some sort. Please can we do a good job of writing an encyclopedia entry. There is no hope of doing this until advocacy stops.
-- Nick Y. 17:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I have done all of tha work needed to merge this article with mass spectrum except deleting this article. Mass spectrum now adresses all of the mass spec issues that used to be covered here. I am in favor of deleting this article since I see it as redundant; however I do not wish to invite advocacy at
Mass spectrum so if there is a desire to keep this article as a physics article that is fine with me. As a physicist it seems unnecessary and irrelevant as well. Just my input.
-- Nick Y. 19:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Kehrli- This article is now yours to mislead as many people as you would like. The only thing I ask is that you not remove the diambiguation to mass spectrum. I will also insist on the biased article tag remain. I am reporting your behavior to the authorities. Remember that the history is all saved with your blatant bias as well as your disingenuous slick rhetorical changes. Please constrain your advocacy to this one page.
-- Nick Y. 21:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Nick, - the mass spectrum article is quite good, you have done a good job. The only thing that you should improve is to state that the m/z as defined by IUPAC does not comply with ISO 31 nor with the IUPAC green book nor with the IUPAP red book. If you would include these facts, it would be a very neutral and balanced article.
Done, no problem.
-- Nick Y. 20:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
In order to avoid confusion, the mass spectrometry M/Z is written in capital letters in the following. For the same reason, units and constants are written in bold font, quantities are written in italic font.
Currently the IUPAC orange book defines M/Z the following way: M is the mass number, defined by the mass m divided by the mass unit dalton:
Z is the charge number, defined by the charge q divided by the elementary charge unit e.
and therefore M/Z becomes:
or, when sorting quantities and units:
The ISO established quite strict rules for dealing with quantities. These rules are listed in the document ISO 31 on quantities and units, which by large parts is based on the Document IUPAP-25 published by the IUPAP. IUPAC adopts the same rules in its IUPAC green book.
This means all three organizations agree with the following notation of the quantity mass:
This means a mass quantity has the symbol m and consists of a pure numerical factor n and a mass unit like for example Da. (Da, though not a SI unit, is accepted by ISO.) The same for charge would yield:
This means a charge quantity has the symbol q and consists of a numerical factor z and a unit e. We use z to indicate that the numerical factor is always a whole number when using the elementary charge unit e. Here we have the problem that the elementary charge unit e is not directly accepted by ISO. (However, ISO accepts eV, therefore e is semi-allowed by the construct eV/V.)
In general, ISO wants quantities to be expressed as a product of a numerical factor and a unit, which is written as:
where {} means "numerical factor of" and [] means "unit of".
Note that a mass-to-charge ratio quantity according to ISO is expressed as the fraction of a mass quantity and a charge quantity:
According to ISO, graph axis should best be labled with name, symbol and unit. The numerical factor, however, is not in the label but is the axis itself. For example, a axis denoting a mass should be labeled with "m (kg)" or "m (Da)". The numerical factor n is what is read from the axis itself.
Coming back to the M/Z, we try to identify the terms. Above we had:
The term Da/e is straight foreward, it must be the unit. However, what is m/q? It is not a numerical factor. Regrouping brings more clarity:
Now we can easily identify that m/q represents the symbol for the quantity, M/Z represents the numerical factor, and Da/e represents the unit.
resolves to
this is very close to the situation when just dividing the mass quantity and the charge quantity:
We found that the dimensionless M/Z that mass spectrometrists so much like to use, is in fact just the numerical factor of the quantity mass-to-charge ratio m/q. This means that according to all conventions, mass spectra x-axis should not be labeled with the symbol of this numerical factor, but with the quantity symbol (which is m/q), and units in brackets. For example: "m/q (Da/e)", and not "M/Z".
Those who read this article be careful. Some editors here are deleting tags labeling it as disputed when it continues to be disputed on content and bias.-- Nick Y. 19:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Rockwood and Cooks are misquoted: see Talk:Mass_spectrum. If NPOV is going back on, then accuracy should be tagged until fixed. Also, the article should be in Category:Mass_spectrometry. Note the link in Mass_spectrometry#Mass_analyzer.
There is no misquotation, Rockwood and Cooks [12] clearly state 1 Th = 1 u/atomic charge and not 1 Th = 1 u/atomic charge number. Please stop with your NPOV. Therefore tag was removed.
Kehrli - The source that you give quotes Rockwood and Cooks as saying "This [mass-to-charge] unit would be defined as the quotient of mass in units of u and the number of charges, z." Seems to be exactly contradictory to what you are saying. I will not argue with you but the accuracy dispute tag is not to be removed until there is consensus. Unilateral removal is very uncool. Please don't do it.-- Nick Y. 19:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Nick, I have seen that. Unfortunately even Cooks seems not able to come up with a coherent definition. However, in this case, I think it is fair to say that the formula is what counts. For three reasons:
Therefore there is no doubt what Cooks and Rockwood actually meant. Look, the two of us had a valid agreement on the article. I am sorry that we are back in the fighting mode, but it is really not my fault. Kmurray restarted it. He would better get his act together and improve the IUPAC definition instead of enforcing misconcepted mass spec terminology onto the wider scientific community at Wikipedia.
It is clear that Cooks and Rockwood mean u/z, not u/e as you indicate in the article. For reference, here it is: Cooks & Rockwood Rapid Commun. Mass Spectrom. 1991, 5, 93.
Kamurray, no - this is not clear at all for the following reasons:
The only (rather unimportant) error they make is they use z as a symbol for the quantity charge, instead of the symbol q or Q. This usage, however, is rather common in mass spectrometry. You find it in many reviewed articles.
Thanks for posting the copy, it clearly shows that I was right. Unfortunately Cooks used confusing wording, but at second sight it is very evident what he meant. Please, please, do your job and get the IUPAC to abandon the "dimensionless" m/z and have them accept the thomson in a way that complies to the ISO 31 standard. The current mess is really pitiful.
Perhaps I can at least partially clear up what was meant in the Cooks and Rockwood article. I am Alan Rockwood, the second author of the article. I can't speak for Cooks, but for my part it was my intention that units of mass and charge be included in the definition, i.e. 1 Th = 1 unified atomic mass unit per elementary charge, or equivalently, 1 dalton per elementary charge. Thus, a C+ mass spectrum would show a doublet with peaks at 11.99945 Th and 12.00281 Th, where the dimensions of the Th are mass divided by charge. (Note: in this calculation I included the mass of the electron, so the peak for carbon-12 is not at an integer number.)
The mass-to-charge ratio article is a primary source for mass spectrometry nomenclature and should be deleted based on No original research standards. Those portions that are not primary research should be merged with the mass spectrum article. The article arose from m/z misconception (deleted: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/M/z misconception) and in edits of the mass spectrometry page (see Talk:Mass_spectrometry#Could_the_m.2Fq_vandal_please_stop). Mediation Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-04-10 mass-to-charge ratio resulted in a POV fork between mass-to-charge ratio and mass spectrum. The part of mass-to-charge ratio that did not relate to mass spectrometry was supposed to go in mass-to-charge ratio and the mass spectrometry part was supposed to go in the mass spectrum article. Unfortunately, all but one sentence of the mass-to-charge ratio article relates to mass spectrometry. The remainder either duplicates existing information in the mass spectrometry entry or constitutes original research that is a primary source for mass spectrometry nomenclature (it is referenced five times in the mass spectrometry article and the article's novel proposal to replace the accepted m/z with the new m/q notation makes this Wikipedia entry the top Google hit for 'm/q "mass spectrometer"). This notation is in conflict with the definitions that exist in the peer-reviewed literature (e.g. American Society for Mass Spectrometry [13] and IUPAC [14] - for an simplified overview see Ken Busch's Spectroscopy Magazine article: [15]), books (e.g. McLafferty ISBN 0935702253, Dass ISBN 0471330531, Siuzdak ISBN 0126474710, Sparkman ISBN 0966081323, Grayson ISBN 0941901319, etc.) and on-line glossaries (e.g. The Little Encyclopedia of Mass Spectrometry [16], Pharmaceutical Mass spectrometry glossary [17], Base Peak Mass Spectrometry Glossary of Terms [18], Spectroscopy Magazine Glossary [19], Shimadzu Mass Spectrometry Glossary [20]). The POV and accuracy of the article have been repeatedly flagged and the author has each time removed these flags. The article makes many valid points and contains some novel suggestions on how to improve the existing nomenclature. However, advocating this non-standard point of view in a Wikipedia entry is counterproductive and will only serve to cloud the issue and make consensus building within the mass spectrometry community more difficult. -- Kmurray 03:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC) --
He is telling the story from the perspective of a small part of the scientific community which has established its own nomenclature which is not used by the rest of the scientific community, nor is it compatible with the international standards issued about exactly this topics, the ISO 31. Here are the facts:
The truth shall make you free, but first it shall make you angry. (Anon)
relevant documents:
The facts about this article are:
This article is redundant and not needed unless it is expanded to include material not covered in other articles ( mass spectrum, mass spectrometry etc.)
The facts about this article are:
I am looking for someone with a physics background to help me improve this article, sort of as a counter balance to my mass spectrometry bias. There has been disagreement about this article before so I would like the input and consensus of another reasonable editor with a different background. I am still not certain that this article is totally necessary. -- Nick Y. 16:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is an unbiased opinion from a physicist and mass spectrometrist: it does not need any degree in physics to understand that m/z is against all internatinal conventions established by ISO 31, the IUPAP red book as well as the IUPAC green book. According to those three organizations m/Q must be used instead of m/z. If anything m/z should be deleted.
Look, Nick, the only person that behaves childish is you. You are not even willing to think about the issue. You are just looking for backup for your misguided predjudice. Otherwise you would just read the IUPAC green book. What you are looking for is all in there. Can you read? If you can, please read the document carefully and you will see that m/z is against all rules. But what am I talking - you are not ready to question your own predjudices and therefore there is no chance that you will ever understand the issue.
And please - keep the flag removed as long as you don't have an argument what fact should be wrong. Okay?
Nick, you are mixing two things up.
Comparison: The same problem consists with many other physical properties. Lets take electrical potential: some people use U (the correct SI term) and some people use the incorrect V as a symbol. Both parties, however, use V (volt) as the unit.
Conclusion: The thomson is independent wether it is useed with m/z or m/q. Unfortunately, since you don't even understand the difference between a physical quantity and a unit, you won't understand the argument. And one more thing: mass spectrometry is a part of physics. Therefore, whenever Th is used in MS it is also used in physics.
The constant addition and removal of the disputed tag is quite unhelpfull. Most of us no longer see what the issue is. I have removed reference to units in the introduction as that may be seen as slightly POV. The section on units is more balanced. So if anyone still thinks this article is disputed would they please clearly state below here what exactly is disputed. It seems OK to me. -- Bduke 23:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Clarification of dispute for Bduke
The dispute is over the section:
"Cooks and Rockwood proposed the unit thomson (Th) for the mass-to-charge ratio:
1 Th == 1 u/e == 1 Da/e.
For example, for the ion C7H72+, m / q = 45.5 Th or m / q = 45.5 Da/e"
My issues with it are:
1) It is disproportionate and non-representative being that there are some 20+ papers that use the units Th ever written compared to thousands using m/z. I am very willing to be flexible on this since I think that the proposal to change units is notable. I have personally given it significant space in my own writing of the mass spectrum article and think it should be included appropriately.
2) It is false that Cooks and Rockwood proposed the use of this unit in the manner used. They specifically suggested its use with the m/z notation.
3) The suggestion was mass spectrometry specific and should be stated as such. Every single paper using m/z (Th) was a mass spec paper. It simply is not used outside of this small field at all and only ~20 times within this small field over how many years?
4) There are zero, zip, ziltch papers that use the notation/units "m/q (Th)" in this combination. Not that there is a rule against it. Should we really be the first?
5) Overall the unit Thomson is a notable suggestion that was never adopted by any governing body (and specifically rejected) and used only a few dozen times in history.
There are also several important points left out of this article:
1) In the field of mass spectrometry m/z is near universally used as the abcissa of a mass spectrum and is required by most journals. The use of m/q within this field specifically in electrodynamics problems in standard units (see below) are normal.
2) In electrodynamics mks or cgs SI based units are near universally used along with some use of atomic units. Never, ever, ever Th.
To summarize, I strongly object to the representation of m/q (Th) being disproportionately and erroneously represented at the expense of the units and notation currently in use by the scientific community (SI units, atomic units and m/z).
I am afraid you have both added more noise and heat than light to the situation. Also by both of you playing tag with the dispute tag, neither of you are showing good faith in trying to resolve this problem. Nick, you do seem to be not covering the difference between dimensions and units. To the anon user, I say this. If you going to get into a dispute like this, then get a user name, do not insert your comments in the middle of someone else's comments and sign your comments. OK, lets us look at the dispute:-
It seems to me that the dispute is about a very small part of this article and that reasonable people should be able to resolve it.
A final point. Could the article actually say what the IUPAC Green book and the ISO standard actually says about the "mass-to-charge" ratio, not about mass and charge separately. I think this would be helpfull. If there is a dispute in IUPAC about this it should be documented in the article in a NPOV way.
It is indeed clear that you are not too far apart, but I wish you would use more good faith. Nick, it is not helpfull to talk of Kehrli's disruptive behaviour, and Kehrli, you are perhaps pushing your point too hard. Units do cause a lot of dispute, but they are not the real science. Let us put them in perspective. I'm terribly busy prior to leaving for 6 weeks in UK, so I will have to be brief.
Thanks for both your responses. I am going to think about this for a while, certainly overnight. Tomorrow I am running a Science Week activity at the Melbourne Museum all day so it may be the day after tomorrow that I respond. -- Bduke 07:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I am still concerned about the common usage of this term and the prefered units in the electron optics and related (i.e. non-mass spec) fields. In my limited experience in pure electrodynamics (non-MS) I remember solving problems involving m/q but do not remember using Da/e. I think this needs to be validated. I can't find it in the literature with a quick search but then it is a hard search term. Additionally, although I know that m/q enters into the physics of many of the fields listed (other than mass spectrometry) I have yet to see evidence that there is use of the term "mass-to-charge ratio" in these fields or that it is somehow notable. In fields that involve electron optics I see no advantage to using Daltons, and no point in stopping at the m/q relationship since the mass and the charge are known. Why not just solve the problem and be done. Accelerator physics and ion optics I get stopping at m/q. I still would think that for the most part SI units would be more handy, except where these fields morph into mass spectrometry or are used as a component thereof.-- Nick Y. 17:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)