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There is a request for comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender studies#Navigation templates: masculism related to this page. Please join the discussion there. Thank you. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:03, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
I propose the merging of Meninism into Masculism. Both articles are already quite short, and I think that the subjects of both articles are doubtless similar enough to justify a merger. — Entity137 ( talk) 09:17, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
There is nothing in the article about gender discrimination related to conscription and military service. Arty32 ( talk) 07:17, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
Might be nice to include feminist perspectives about masculism, since the article includes masculist perspectives about feminism. For instance, many feminists would argue in favor of men's rights and say that women are not the only people oppressed by patriarchy. And others might make critiques of "men's rights" as a distraction. 4kbw9Df3Tw ( talk) 03:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
The simple fact is that there is no one agreed-upon definition of this term; the "definition and scope" section goes into a great deal of depth on this. Some tweaks to the lead might help make this more clear, but overall it lists the most prominent definitions that appear in the body of the article - most of the recent edits seem to have been pushing to rewrite the lead and parts of the article around just one definition and one source as if it were definitely correct, which isn't at all supported by the wide variety of sources and differing definitions in the body. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:36, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
User:Firefangledfeathers, if you are adamant about conflating these terms and retaining ambiguities on the page between Masculism and Masculinism, you should provide citations sufficiently refuting the existing references on the page that currently provide sufficient context for disambiguating these terms. If you are unable or unwilling to counter the existing references, please leave the new Masculinism section alone. Thank you.
To reiterate, from the references in the page itself:
The concept of masculism, a term common to the early days of second wave feminism and especially related to men’s movement activities, presents one interesting asymmetry that uses feminism as the positive pole. Most closely associated with men’s movement activist Warren Farrell, the concept initially promoted gender egalitarianism and the promise of mutual benefit. [1]
- ^ Duerst-Lahti, Georgia (2008). "Gender Ideology: masculinism and femininalism". In Goertz, Gary; Mazur, Amy G. (eds.). Politics, gender, and concepts: theory and methodology. Cambridge University Press. p. 169. ISBN 978-0-521-72342-8.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamarr81 ( talk • contribs) 01:09, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamarr81 ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)In its most general meaning, the word 'feminism' refers to promotion of the interests or rights of women, and a reasonable definition of 'masculism' would have it refer to promoting the interests or rights of men... A more precise definition of both would be something on this order: 'the belief that women/ men have been systematically discriminated against, and that that discrimination should be eliminated'. Evidently, such a definition for 'feminism' is commonly understood, and among the few who apply the term 'masculist' to themselves, such is also their intent. Of course, under these meanings there is no necessary conflict between them... both forms of contemporary masculism promote equality between men and women as its adherents envision it. Of course, whether they are mistaken about what moral equality would consist in, or even at some level dishonest about that being their goal, is another matter—as it also is for feminists. This leads us to the extremist versions of masculism and feminism, those that promote some degree of male or female supremacy, and are generally based on belief in the inferiority of the other sex... [1]
extremist feminists? Even beyond that it's easy to find additional sources; I've added another but it's a matter of choosing from the dozens who have covered this. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:18, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
a socio-political movement that seeks gender egalitarianism, the cited work by Duerst-Lahti explicitly makes a distinction between such early use of the concept and more recent anti-feminist discourse that is decidedly non-egalitarian (my bolding):
The first sentence is also circular sourcing, as Firefangledfeathers mentioned already. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 17:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC)Most closely associated with men’s movement activist Warren Farrell, the concept initially promoted gender egalitarianism and the promise of mutual benefit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism). Later, many feminists came to see masculism as a threat, an assessment aided by conservative ideologists of the men’s movement who decried women’s civil rights and family role advantages under the banner of masculism. [2]
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Masculism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 13 April 2007. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which is a contentious topic. Please consult the procedures and edit carefully. |
![]() | This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary. |
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
There is a request for comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender studies#Navigation templates: masculism related to this page. Please join the discussion there. Thank you. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 23:03, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
I propose the merging of Meninism into Masculism. Both articles are already quite short, and I think that the subjects of both articles are doubtless similar enough to justify a merger. — Entity137 ( talk) 09:17, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
There is nothing in the article about gender discrimination related to conscription and military service. Arty32 ( talk) 07:17, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
Might be nice to include feminist perspectives about masculism, since the article includes masculist perspectives about feminism. For instance, many feminists would argue in favor of men's rights and say that women are not the only people oppressed by patriarchy. And others might make critiques of "men's rights" as a distraction. 4kbw9Df3Tw ( talk) 03:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
The simple fact is that there is no one agreed-upon definition of this term; the "definition and scope" section goes into a great deal of depth on this. Some tweaks to the lead might help make this more clear, but overall it lists the most prominent definitions that appear in the body of the article - most of the recent edits seem to have been pushing to rewrite the lead and parts of the article around just one definition and one source as if it were definitely correct, which isn't at all supported by the wide variety of sources and differing definitions in the body. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:36, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
User:Firefangledfeathers, if you are adamant about conflating these terms and retaining ambiguities on the page between Masculism and Masculinism, you should provide citations sufficiently refuting the existing references on the page that currently provide sufficient context for disambiguating these terms. If you are unable or unwilling to counter the existing references, please leave the new Masculinism section alone. Thank you.
To reiterate, from the references in the page itself:
The concept of masculism, a term common to the early days of second wave feminism and especially related to men’s movement activities, presents one interesting asymmetry that uses feminism as the positive pole. Most closely associated with men’s movement activist Warren Farrell, the concept initially promoted gender egalitarianism and the promise of mutual benefit. [1]
- ^ Duerst-Lahti, Georgia (2008). "Gender Ideology: masculinism and femininalism". In Goertz, Gary; Mazur, Amy G. (eds.). Politics, gender, and concepts: theory and methodology. Cambridge University Press. p. 169. ISBN 978-0-521-72342-8.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamarr81 ( talk • contribs) 01:09, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamarr81 ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)In its most general meaning, the word 'feminism' refers to promotion of the interests or rights of women, and a reasonable definition of 'masculism' would have it refer to promoting the interests or rights of men... A more precise definition of both would be something on this order: 'the belief that women/ men have been systematically discriminated against, and that that discrimination should be eliminated'. Evidently, such a definition for 'feminism' is commonly understood, and among the few who apply the term 'masculist' to themselves, such is also their intent. Of course, under these meanings there is no necessary conflict between them... both forms of contemporary masculism promote equality between men and women as its adherents envision it. Of course, whether they are mistaken about what moral equality would consist in, or even at some level dishonest about that being their goal, is another matter—as it also is for feminists. This leads us to the extremist versions of masculism and feminism, those that promote some degree of male or female supremacy, and are generally based on belief in the inferiority of the other sex... [1]
extremist feminists? Even beyond that it's easy to find additional sources; I've added another but it's a matter of choosing from the dozens who have covered this. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:18, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
a socio-political movement that seeks gender egalitarianism, the cited work by Duerst-Lahti explicitly makes a distinction between such early use of the concept and more recent anti-feminist discourse that is decidedly non-egalitarian (my bolding):
The first sentence is also circular sourcing, as Firefangledfeathers mentioned already. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 17:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC)Most closely associated with men’s movement activist Warren Farrell, the concept initially promoted gender egalitarianism and the promise of mutual benefit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism). Later, many feminists came to see masculism as a threat, an assessment aided by conservative ideologists of the men’s movement who decried women’s civil rights and family role advantages under the banner of masculism. [2]
References