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Hi.
I moved the Chronology section into the biographical part. To be honest, I think the "travelogue" guide to Fukuoka's life is not that great and could be summarised down to "travelled widely teaching and demonstrating seed balls and practising de-desertification". Much of it is fairly lame and much of the really interesting stuff has not made it onto the topic yet. Sorry but it really is not that great a deal to have travelled to places these days. I'd like to see some foundation of why those places and events were notable.
Just out of interest, can we confirm he work has actually had a lasting effect in the field? I know a many project which were started with great flourish but have since died off, or folks lost interest.
Separate issue, if he has a "movement" of followers in India, then perhaps it could be documented?
Iyo-farm ( talk) 16:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Can we please use descriptive edit summaries. The recent summery
seems more like an attack than anything else, and made me want to revert it on the spot. For starters do not call good faith edits vandalism, vandalism is very specific insertion of rude words etc it does not include content edits which you may disagree with. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia is an essay about the community aspects of the project, and seems to be used in the wrong context. All the other tags do little to explain the edit.
Looking at the edit summary history some of User:Iyo-farm summaries seem to be blank or very short.
A little more WP:CIVIL WP:AGF etc. would go a long way.-- Salix ( talk): 06:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Can you read this (質問) 「貴方は馬鹿ですか」 ?
As a matter of record the history says this, with the last three characters truncated because of too long an edit summary; Truncated by only the last three characters (the Japanese for 福岡正信 (Fukuoka Masanobu) which i also did edits of).
This is better (without the dashes), as an example of the would be quotation, if it will fit also:
No time for rubbish, nor for grossly evident and hollow double standards.
— -- macropneuma 09:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
What we seem to have here is two different editors having difficulty working with you and understanding your perspectives and objections. I think both the article and its editors would benefit the most if you would consider taking a step back for a moment to calm down and regain perspective. You seem to be getting very worked up over something here but you're not communicating what your concerns in a way the rest of us can understand. A few key things as I see it:
We really need to resolve these communication issues, because as it stands right now I still don't have a clue what your objections with the article are with respect to NPOV and the other cleanup tags you keep putting back on. Yes, you've linked to prior discussions. And no, if I had understood what your issue was from reading them (or participating in them) I wouldn't be asking you over and over to try to provide clear and concise reasoning for your objections. This is something you really need to try to do, because otherwise nothing is likely to eventuate and you'll keep having the same issues ad nauseum. TechnoSymbiosis ( talk) 01:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Masanobu Fukuoka [1984 Japanese original] (1987 (in English) translation) The Road Back to Nature-Regaining the Paradise Lost translated by Frederic P. Metreaud; Japan Publications, first edition 1987 Aug. 377p 8p of plates, out of print ISBN 978-0-87040-673-7.
—Quotation from chapter 4 beginning, as promised.
The point i promised is covered here, and more & different sources are available on request and forthcoming.
Another major point of evidence here is that he was in the role herein in 1975 of advising Mokichi Okada's Sekai Kyūsei Kyō (the Religion for the Salvation of the World).
[Chapter]
4
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Natural Farming:
A Personal Testimony
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
The Principle and Practice
of Natural Farming
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Here is the text of a speech outlining my experiences and approach to natural farming that I gave before members of the Sekai Kyūsei Kyō (the Religion for the Salvation of the World) in January 1975.
* * *
I graduated from Gifu Agricultural College and at the age of twenty–five joined the plant inspection division at the Yokohama Customs Bureau. There I did research in plant pathology and worked as a plant customs inspector for a while. I spent countless hours looking through the eyepiece of my microscope. As I did so, I noticed that the tiny worlds of the fungi and bacteria have something in common with the vast universe of heavenly bodies.
There are males and there are females in those little fungi too. At the time, I was working on crossing molds. Molds bear a close resemblance to man not only in their shape, but in everything they do. While I was pursuing these thoughts, filled with doubts and wonder, I fell ill [pneumonia]. Then one day [15 May 1937], prompted by a chance incident, I underwent what I suppose you could call a conversion of faith. It was a turning point. I'm not going to get into that here, but I had the feeling then that science was some sort of outrageous monster.Sensing that everything is utterly meaningless, I quit my post at customs and headed back to Shikoku. I didn't head straight back, though. I traveled around a good bit, during which time I conceived the idea of natural farming [自然農法]. On my return to Shikoku, I retreated to my father's orchard to try this out. This was during the early years of the war. As the war escalated, a life of leisurely isolation in the hills became impossible, so I joined the agricultural testing station in neighboring Kōchi Prefecture, where I was placed in charge of insect damage and worked through to the end of the war. While at the Kōchi testing centre, I did scientific research on farming methods and ran around providing guidance and instruction to the local farmers on growing rice and barley and on encouraging seed germination. Our goal at the time was to maximize food production for the war effort. At the same time, however, I had this idea of natural farming [自然農法] in the back of my head [mind]. So along with the scientific research I was doing, I also did some research of my own on natural farming. When the war ended, I was free to go at last and become a farmer as I had desired. I wasted no time in putting my ideas into practice.
So I was still a youth when I happened upon the idea of "do-nothing" farming. But although I knew that such a way existed, I had no idea at first how to carry it out in practice. I didn't know the methods. For thirty years since then I've farmed in search of those methods.
Eventually, I came to have some idea of what these are.Is "Do-Nothing" Farming Possible? ––––––––––––––––––––––
...
The Paradoxes of Scientific Farming ––––––––––––––––––––
...
Naturally Farmed Rice ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
The Pit of Knowledge –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
Ignorant Agriculture, Misguided Medicine –––––––––––––––
...
Is Natural Farming Catching On? ––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
My Method of Natural Farming –––––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
Nature as Teacher ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
* * *
I delivered this lecture before the Sekai Kyūsei Kyō more than ten years ago [in 1975]. Today things are a little different on my farm [ca. 1986]. About four years ago, I stopped having students stay at my orchard huts and retired into a solitary life of seclusion and study. My son and his wife care for half of my orchard, while I manage the other half and a little over an acre of rice paddy, where I do as I please.
Depending on how you look at it, this orchard may seem disorderly wilderness now, but I think that in the space of a few short years it will gradually take on the form of an integrated farm, something which I await with great anticipation.
As for the rice field, for thirty five years now I have employed a direct–seeding, no–till, rice/barley succession in a green manure cover [since 1950]. But because it has become clear to me what methods can be practised anywhere and by anyone, over the past few years I have made some significant changes in my methods [early 1980s].
–– -- macropneuma 09:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
–– -- macropneuma 08:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Point Of View (POV) is not neutral and not verifiable, lacking the reliable sources.
Refer to the first of numerous POV disputes, at: Talk:Masanobu_Fukuoka#The_quotations_of_his_biographically_and_personally_most_important_goals_deleted_without_any_explanation
–– -- macropneuma 06:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I move that the topic is now neutral enough and tidied up enough to meet general Wikipedian standards. Iyo-farm ( talk) 07:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
The Recent developments section seems to suggest that the farm is being maintained in the traditional way, yet the photo credits "Place of Fukuoka's family farmlands, now farmed in a modern, conventional manner." suggest otherwise. What is the real situation now and does that section need to be reworded? -- Salix ( talk): 16:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
The article is Masanobu Fukuoka. Not about farming per se, of any way. Section headings must relate to the article by its title, according to basic Wikipedia policy. It is nonsense to say Masanobu Fukuoka's "Recent developments". From User:?Iyo-farm?'s first edits' changes it was always about the subject of recent farming practises since his son started to take over management in the 1980s—To continue with the Nature/Natural Farming section. It has no good reason to be separate from that Nature/Natural Farming section.
Click the following links and follow their links in turn:
Esu Coop Osaka exchange visit to Fukuoka Masanobu's son's family's nature farm (page posted 2004 Dec) -includes great photos of the farm having interesting and helpful captions' text, eg. 91 year old Mr. Fukuoka; the Ama-Natsu-Mikan and their orchard; Daikon radishes growing in the Ama-Natsu-Mikan orchard; a current serious pest problem of white spotted longicorn beetle; Family, young people and employees working there and nearby; A ginko orchard part of the larger whole orchard, etc.
Elder Mr. Fukuoka meeting again with owner of Mahoroba Natural Foods store, with many details, as at 2008 Feb, including of Fukuoka Masanobu's advanced age condition; the condition and running by his Son and his Wife of the Nature Farm, and so on.
It says, the Pagoda is desolate, as the owner is no longer there, and therefore lectures are no longer held there by him, respectfully addressed as late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu.
It says, the mountain mud walled hut where he stayed decades before 2008 is weathering, as if it wouldn't. My home, my late father's small farm house inside our SE Australian wet forest microclimate is only 20 years old and is really weathered too, from that same wet humid climate. These don't and can't be made to say or mean some grandiose interpretation about the entire farm's management.
I will translate the messages of more of this later when time permits. All our disruptor–here had to do to go wrong as they evidenced, was to badly read some Japanese sources and blow them out of all proportion and perspective... .
Farmer Philosopher Masanobu Fukuoka (1) Humans must Strive to Know the Unknown Japan Spotlight 2008
The set of links herein in turn (summer 2010)
As i have written above, and linked immediately above, i have secondary, third party, reliable verifiable sources from a professional journalist in Japan who was invited by the Fukuoka family to tour, write about and photograph the farm last year, summer 2010.
I have already provided above links to his reliable sources of the farm status. His sources in full in his Japanese original writing and photographs, and his own English succinct summary description: (again) the set of links here—click through all the links and pages to read the succinct English, the photographs, the full Japanese description and photo captions, and on his site's other pages see his credentials as journalist in Japan.
Above in talk i discreetly discussed the making of those photos from him available more on a public site, including seeking his permission to make them available here.
In sum a variety of practises are nowadays carried out in different areas of the farm, including as some areas continuing straw mulched cropping, without using seedballs, and including some areas of standard no-till, organic farming (not conventional as no chemicals are used), some areas of no-till weed-mat covered row cropping (yes plastic weed mat), etcetera. Masanobu Fukuoka sowed without seedballs many of the crops, but he did use seedballs for the rice crops, anyways. This rice with seedballs has been clearly stated as not continued now. The orchard has some areas continuing with the same trees and with some areas of continuing self-reproducing wild vegetables underneath those old trees, including daikons, mustards, turnips, and more i don't know nowadays all about the varieties that are growing, as much as i would like to know, as a farmer myself. They have in other areas changed practises from old orchard trees to new varieties of citrus, and new fruit trees altogether, as already documented. They have been growing those Shiitake mushrooms in shady areas of the maturing woodland. A photo of this, Shiitake mushrooms in the maturing woodland, is publicly available in the existing cited sources linked above, along with more photos of the above variety of kinds of farm areas, from 2004, 2008 and summer mid 2010.
More sources and even more reliable sources again, are available as already said many times.
I have more than 100 Japanese newspaper articles from the 1980s till very recently, consisting of a mix of those by other journalists about Masanobu Fukuoka and by Masanobu Fukuoka writing himself, in Japanese majors newspapers for example the Asahi Shimbun. I have to go through all—eventually... . i will copyedit this text above later ––-- macropneuma 07:39, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Just to flag up other action going on elsewhere. There was another mental vomit all over the topic Nature farming, ( here), which underlines Macropneuma agenda over this whole "Nature Farming" versus "Natural Farming". I am sorry but it is an awful petty, one man argument regarding the translation of the kanji shizen nōhō.
Yes, I agree, there was a little confusion in this area. It is the nature of Kanji that they can be translated in many ways and it is difficult to argue which one is "right" or "wrong". However, I think there is an overpoweringly strong argument to say that "Nature Farming" for Okada and "Natural Farming" for Fukuoka has been adopted as convention internationally. Especially by Okada's followers, who appear far more numerous than Fukuoka's, and have established schools and associations etc in the name of "Nature Farming".
I reject absolutely any mishmash confusion of the two differing methods. I am sorry Macropneuma but if you cannot see how badly composed and confusing those edits were, you really should not be editing the Wikipedia.
This makes me very suspicious about the claims he is making over the renaming of Okada's method to shizen nōhō in 1950 and I'd like to see better references to support this. It strikes me it is symptomatic of his obsession with Fukuoka. Okada's work does, of course, pre-date Fukuoka. I am reading this as a suggestion Okada was influenced by Fukuoka or 'stole' Fukuoka's terminology which I doubt. Iyo-farm ( talk) 23:39, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Ah ... silence.
Nothing but the sound of the higurashi to disturb one in one's garden.
How can I add a soundtrack to the Fukuoka topic? Iyo-farm ( talk) 09:59, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to have a phonetic pronunciation of Masanobu Fukuoka's name? (For Westerners / English speakers) — Preceding unsigned comment added by WideEyedPupil ( talk • contribs) 06:41, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
If one actually reads reference 26, which is cited in the Criticisms section ('Body and Earth Are Not Two' : Kawaguchi Yoshikazu's NATURAL FARMING and American Agriculture Writers), one would understand that that particular passage of it is not critical of Fukuoka at all. What it is trying to say is that, though Fukuoka's specific practices on his farm are not universally applicable (due to the obvious fact that ecosystems and climates vary from location to location, among other things), his principles can still be universally applicable. Kawaguchi is the farmer who described Fukuoka's method as being a "grow-nothing" method, only because he tried to apply the same exact techniques to his own farm and failed. It took him years of following Fukuoka's principles before he finally succeeded at developing his own form of natural farming that worked for him personally. The article cited goes on to say that it should not be called "Fukuoka's Method" because the "methods" of natural farming will necessarily be as numerous as the farmers who practice them. All farmers can follow Fukuoka's principles, but must ultimately come to create their own particular method.
This aspect of the article is not a "criticism" at all and is instead a clarification. Whoever wrote the Criticisms sections was being misleading or simply did not fully understand the article they cited.
An earlier citation of this article in the "Influence" section, uses the article to claim that Fukuoka's techniques are too technical for many people to understand. There was no study of any kind conducted to confirm this. This is merely the anecdotal experience of one man, Kawaguchi himself. If we're going to talk about the supposed difficulty and technicality of Fukuoka's techniques, we must mention that it is only in the opinion of Kawaguchi. Furthermore, the likening of Fukuoka to an authoritarian grandfather figure is made only by the author of the article. Why should we state the opinion of this one man as if it is a widely accepted criticism? We need to properly attribute these criticisms so readers have a better understanding of where the criticism is coming from and what is its scope. Berserk798 ( talk) 21:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
First read User:Berserk798's talk section here. User:Berserk798's salient, non–perfunctory, start, to making an assessment of the sourcing of this article, before i even get started on criticising the further depth of poor sourcing. Especially the poor sourcing spread through it, in over-statements and unverifiable sources, misdirecting impressions against the reliable source evidence. Those over-statements and mis-directions not based on reliable sources.
——-- macropneuma 11:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
X ——-- macropneuma 10:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
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——-- macropneuma 10:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC) ——-- macropneuma 21:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC) ——-- macropneuma 22:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
——-- macropneuma 05:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Can't you see how the stuff like the authormask being set to 3 screwed up the formatting by blanking his name off? There are specific guidelines for its use.
So, User:NULL (you've my consensus on experimentally trying that point:) remove the translations you suggested, and we'll see?? ——-- macropneuma 10:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC) ——-- macropneuma 11:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
If one actually reads reference 26, which is cited in the Criticisms section ('Body and Earth Are Not Two' : Kawaguchi Yoshikazu's NATURAL FARMING and American Agriculture Writers), one would understand that that particular passage of it is not critical of Fukuoka at all. What it is trying to say is that, though Fukuoka's specific practices on his farm are not universally applicable (due to the obvious fact that ecosystems and climates vary from location to location, among other things), his principles can still be universally applicable. Kawaguchi is the farmer who described Fukuoka's method as being a "grow-nothing" method, only because he tried to apply the same exact techniques to his own farm and failed. It took him years of following Fukuoka's principles before he finally succeeded at developing his own form of natural farming that worked for him personally. The article cited goes on to say that it should not be called "Fukuoka's Method" because the "methods" of natural farming will necessarily be as numerous as the farmers who practice them. All farmers can follow Fukuoka's principles, but must ultimately come to create their own particular method.
This aspect of the article is not a "criticism" at all and is instead a clarification. Whoever wrote the Criticisms sections was being misleading or simply did not fully understand the article they cited.
An earlier citation of this article in the "Influence" section, uses the article to claim that Fukuoka's techniques are too technical for many people to understand. There was no study of any kind conducted to confirm this. This is merely the anecdotal experience of one man, Kawaguchi himself. If we're going to talk about the supposed difficulty and technicality of Fukuoka's techniques, we must mention that it is only in the opinion of Kawaguchi. Furthermore, the likening of Fukuoka to an authoritarian grandfather figure is made only by the author of the article. Why should we state the opinion of this one man as if it is a widely accepted criticism? We need to properly attribute these criticisms so readers have a better understanding of where the criticism is coming from and what is its scope. Berserk798 ( talk) 21:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Please read all that is relevant and discuss. ——-- macropneuma 15:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Kato source: This source doesn't say what has been stated in the article here—editor's mis-interpretation synthesis not attributable to the source. Kato writes: (– my italics and my bracketed Kawaguchi name added)
Kawaguchi himself converted from conventional farming to Fukuoka’s famous ‘do-nothing’ techniques around 1979. Perhaps he [Kawaguchi] should have called them “grow- nothing” techniques because he [Kawaguchi] failed completely, harvesting almost no crops for two years. However, he persisted with Natural Farming, not as ‘techniques’ but as a set of principles, and after struggling for ten years he finally succeeded in finding his own way of farming. He did so by observing the four principles laid down by Fukuoka, that is: no plowing, no fertilizers, no weeding, and no chemicals. Kawaguchi has said that at first he was not fully convinced by Fukuoka’s do-nothing theory, but once he understood that the aim of Natural Farming was to cultivate the land as it must have been in the earliest days of cultivation, some ten thousand years ago, rather than to let it go totally wild, he saw the light. He didn’t name his approach ‘the Kawaguchi Method’ because he claimed that potentially there could be as many methods of Natural Farming as there are people who practice it.
I believe that if Kawaguchi’s ideas and practices were better known, the four principles of Natural Farming might become applicable much more widely, not only in Japan but also in America and other places in the world. Of course, the tech- niques might need to be adapted according to the local conditions, but the prin- ciples can be applied almost anywhere.
Source: Japan Spotlight 2008 161th promenade: unreliable on that state today. From the journalist's visit prior to publication in Sept/Oct 2008, it clearly states organic farming, strictly not conventional at all, and states a lot about natural farming with Etienne. We know from better, more specific sources and better photos that the farm has areas of both, areas of organic farming in the scientific sense and natural farming, with straw mulch in the terms of late Fukuoka, Masanobu.
The better 2010 source, already provided, by professional journalist, Brian Covert, including his photos, who was invited to the farm, not a misconstruing uninvited person, has much clearer again descriptive writing that both organic farming and natural farming areas continue to be practiced in different parts, but not any kind of conventional farming. 161 promenade source does not say they are tilling, anywhere, i read it (again now). Selective bias using this photo without inckuding photos of the nature farming areas..
——-- macropneuma 19:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
——-- macropneuma 03:47, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Definitely better sources—original criticisms publications—not citations of other people's/these criticisms, and more likely reliable and more reliable sources, are the following two examples:
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——-- macropneuma 21:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to have a phonetic pronunciation of Masanobu Fukuoka's name? (For Westerners / English speakers) — Preceding unsigned comment added by WideEyedPupil ( talk • contribs) 06:41, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
"Seriously sadistic--masochistic--self-destructive and seriously defamatory ... a really genuinely evil person, a real devil as sneaky and devious as they are ... a consciously, deliberately sadistic person" (that me folks!).
See: WP:MEAT and WP:CANVAS -- Iyo-farm ( talk) 16:27, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
OK, I am a little apprehensive about Macropneuma’s return to this topic for reasons documented previously on this talk page archive.
An immediate repetition of the whitewashing dispute and FUBAR edits such as [7] do not do much for my confidence. I've removed "natural philosopher" from the biographical box as natural philosopher has an entirely different meaning in English and some of the bitty, extraneous fritters that do nothing but complicated the article.
You've got a tendency to be a little obsessive over details that really do not matter and over complicate things, e.g. there is no harm to changing all of the 'ref names' but it really makes no difference to the reader, it is merely for the sake of the code.
I also still argue that Natural Farming should be capitalized as a proper noun to differentiate it from the purely adjectival (and misleading) use of the term "natural".
Thank you. -- Iyo-farm ( talk) 05:23, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
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macropneuma
14:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)Not agreed; matters of facts (from reliable sources available on request), silliness, falsehoods thrown at Fukuoka now repeated again (mud slinging), and of undue personal comments. To say the least, disappointed. Hmm, BTW, in case you haven’t noticed i’m exercising my sense of humour at the silly attack.
Re: diff: Re: diff: Direct quotations in context:
In any event, I was a very busy, very fortunate young man, spending my days in amazement at the world of nature revealed through the eyepiece of the microscope, struck by how similar this minute world was to the great world of the infinite universe. In the evening, either in or out of love, I played around and enjoyed myself. I believe it was this aimless life, coupled with fatigue from overwork, that finally led to fainting spells in the research room. The consequence of all this was that I contracted acute pneumonia and was placed in the pneumothorax treatment room on the top floor of the Police Hospital. It was winter and through a broken window the wind blew swirls of snow around the room. It was warm beneath the covers, but my face was like ice. The nurse would check my temperature and be gone in an instant.
As it was a private room, people hardly ever looked in. I felt I had been put out in the bitter cold, and suddenly plunged into a world of solitude and loneliness. I found myself face to face with the fear of death. As I think about it now, it seems a useless fear, but at the time, I took it seriously. I was finally released from the hospital, but I could not pull myself out of my depression. In what had I placed my confidence until then? I had been unconcerned and content, but what was the nature of that complacency? I was in an agony of doubt about the nature of life and death. I could not sleep, could not apply myself to my work. In nightly wanderings above the bluff and beside the harbor, I could find no relief. One night as I wandered, I collapsed in exhaustion on a hill overlooking the harbor, finally dozing against the trunk of a large tree. I lay there, neither asleep nor awake, until dawn. I can still remember that it was the morning of the 15th of May. In a daze I watched the harbor grow light, seeing the sunrise and yet somehow not seeing it. As the breeze blew up from below the bluff, the morning mist suddenly disappeared. Just at that moment a night heron appeared, gave a sharp cry, and flew away into the distance. I could hear the flapping of its wings. In an instant all my doubts and the gloomy mist of my confusion vanished. Everything I had held in firm conviction, everything upon which I had ordinarily relied was swept away with the wind. I felt that I understood just one thing. Without my thinking about them, words came from my mouth: "In this world there is nothing at all. . . ."I felt that I understood nothing.*
[Footnote]*To "understand nothing," in this sense, is to recognize the insufficiency of intellectual knowledge.
— Masanobu Fukuoka, The One–Straw Revolution, 1978 Rodale
Please, different responsible editors, who are my peers or better competence, join this article and better edit it. I wish!—together, with me—and i have wished so, forever. -- macropneuma 13:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Can I remind you both of Wikipedia:No personal attacks: "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks do not help make a point; they only hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about other contributors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to blocks."
Macropneuma is unwilling to go the sandbox route, so please allow me to start a new section for 'suggested improvements' of the topic. If anyone knows of a better way to lay out such a discussion, please reformat as required.
I'll go through the topic and unpick proposed changes as time allows. If Macropneuma would list his suggestions and justifications here, I would appreciate it.
As a rule, for me, "less is more". I am unconvinced the topic benefits from much of the visual clutter and 'micro-detailing' Macropneuma is seeking to add, but others might disagree with me. Likewise, this is an English language Wiki and so I do not understand the need for extensive Japanese language documentation. Presumably if anyone has that serious an interest they will learn the language and go to the primary sources but it strikes me that, according to policy, English language sources are sufficient. -- Iyo-farm ( talk) 11:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Please discuss.
natural philosophy
noun [ mass noun ] archaic
natural science, especially physical science.
DERIVATIVES
natural philosopher noun
This article has many {{ dead link}}s in the references notes citations. Please fix the links. I'll tag the dead links, as already did, as was reverted in breach of WP policies. -- macropneuma 15:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Globalize/West ← see these links of this one example of these policies, also. -- macropneuma 09:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I am sorry but I have to consider a number of the most recent revision to be quite deliberate bad faith edits [9] on behalf of Macropneuma.
Direct copies of
For example,
and if we look at minor details,
I am sorry but, no. Stop reverting. Please discuss your intentions beforehand and justify them.
You don't have a right to waste other people's time in this manner. Thank you. -- Iyo-farm ( talk) 12:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Policies: WP:BEHAVE - conduct ——-- macropneuma 01:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Who do you think anonymously–you are kidding – eg. Are we supposed to not notice that these two below quotations from different talk post words of yours above seem are suited to your argumentation at that time you're making that post and yet when juxtaposed near enough to impossible to both be true – nearly impossible belonging in the one person.
This has gone on long enough it is time we moved towards a formal Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. There are a number of options
I'm not sure if we actually have a content dispute, or if we do its lost in the rest. How should we move forward?-- Salix ( talk): 09:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm concerned there's an overdose of Japanese text in the bibliography, partly due to the use of the asiantitle template. I've looked over the articles for several Japanese authors and it appears that the usual method for representing written works is to put either the translated title or romaji first, then the Japanese title in parentheses. This makes it easier for an English reader to skim the titles while still presenting the Japanese original title nearby.
Does anyone have any thoughts or preferences on how this section should be formatted? Personally I would prefer to have the romaji/translated title appear first. –
NULL ‹
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edits›
03:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
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The link to http://ir.nul.nagoya-u.ac.jp/jspui/bitstream/2237/7865/1/kato.pdf was interesting, it confirms my own experience, that very few people have successfully replicated Fukuoka's experiment (but a great many, including myself, seem to have tried and failed). Is there any data on this? If I'm correct and the technique is not easily replicable, should Fukuoka really be called a pioneer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pignut ( talk • contribs) 05:57, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
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Sorry, that it is a "Documentary" may be an info there, and the duration (24m 37s), too, please.
´Being´ "Best" and "a Must Watch", if it does not belong to the title, then not necessary.
(Revisions) Masanobu Fukuoka: Difference between revisions
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Masanobu_Fukuoka&diff=next&oldid=1008334929#In_English
Thanks. --
Visionhelp (
talk)
14:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Hi.
I moved the Chronology section into the biographical part. To be honest, I think the "travelogue" guide to Fukuoka's life is not that great and could be summarised down to "travelled widely teaching and demonstrating seed balls and practising de-desertification". Much of it is fairly lame and much of the really interesting stuff has not made it onto the topic yet. Sorry but it really is not that great a deal to have travelled to places these days. I'd like to see some foundation of why those places and events were notable.
Just out of interest, can we confirm he work has actually had a lasting effect in the field? I know a many project which were started with great flourish but have since died off, or folks lost interest.
Separate issue, if he has a "movement" of followers in India, then perhaps it could be documented?
Iyo-farm ( talk) 16:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Can we please use descriptive edit summaries. The recent summery
seems more like an attack than anything else, and made me want to revert it on the spot. For starters do not call good faith edits vandalism, vandalism is very specific insertion of rude words etc it does not include content edits which you may disagree with. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not just an encyclopedia is an essay about the community aspects of the project, and seems to be used in the wrong context. All the other tags do little to explain the edit.
Looking at the edit summary history some of User:Iyo-farm summaries seem to be blank or very short.
A little more WP:CIVIL WP:AGF etc. would go a long way.-- Salix ( talk): 06:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Can you read this (質問) 「貴方は馬鹿ですか」 ?
As a matter of record the history says this, with the last three characters truncated because of too long an edit summary; Truncated by only the last three characters (the Japanese for 福岡正信 (Fukuoka Masanobu) which i also did edits of).
This is better (without the dashes), as an example of the would be quotation, if it will fit also:
No time for rubbish, nor for grossly evident and hollow double standards.
— -- macropneuma 09:13, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
What we seem to have here is two different editors having difficulty working with you and understanding your perspectives and objections. I think both the article and its editors would benefit the most if you would consider taking a step back for a moment to calm down and regain perspective. You seem to be getting very worked up over something here but you're not communicating what your concerns in a way the rest of us can understand. A few key things as I see it:
We really need to resolve these communication issues, because as it stands right now I still don't have a clue what your objections with the article are with respect to NPOV and the other cleanup tags you keep putting back on. Yes, you've linked to prior discussions. And no, if I had understood what your issue was from reading them (or participating in them) I wouldn't be asking you over and over to try to provide clear and concise reasoning for your objections. This is something you really need to try to do, because otherwise nothing is likely to eventuate and you'll keep having the same issues ad nauseum. TechnoSymbiosis ( talk) 01:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Masanobu Fukuoka [1984 Japanese original] (1987 (in English) translation) The Road Back to Nature-Regaining the Paradise Lost translated by Frederic P. Metreaud; Japan Publications, first edition 1987 Aug. 377p 8p of plates, out of print ISBN 978-0-87040-673-7.
—Quotation from chapter 4 beginning, as promised.
The point i promised is covered here, and more & different sources are available on request and forthcoming.
Another major point of evidence here is that he was in the role herein in 1975 of advising Mokichi Okada's Sekai Kyūsei Kyō (the Religion for the Salvation of the World).
[Chapter]
4
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Natural Farming:
A Personal Testimony
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
The Principle and Practice
of Natural Farming
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Here is the text of a speech outlining my experiences and approach to natural farming that I gave before members of the Sekai Kyūsei Kyō (the Religion for the Salvation of the World) in January 1975.
* * *
I graduated from Gifu Agricultural College and at the age of twenty–five joined the plant inspection division at the Yokohama Customs Bureau. There I did research in plant pathology and worked as a plant customs inspector for a while. I spent countless hours looking through the eyepiece of my microscope. As I did so, I noticed that the tiny worlds of the fungi and bacteria have something in common with the vast universe of heavenly bodies.
There are males and there are females in those little fungi too. At the time, I was working on crossing molds. Molds bear a close resemblance to man not only in their shape, but in everything they do. While I was pursuing these thoughts, filled with doubts and wonder, I fell ill [pneumonia]. Then one day [15 May 1937], prompted by a chance incident, I underwent what I suppose you could call a conversion of faith. It was a turning point. I'm not going to get into that here, but I had the feeling then that science was some sort of outrageous monster.Sensing that everything is utterly meaningless, I quit my post at customs and headed back to Shikoku. I didn't head straight back, though. I traveled around a good bit, during which time I conceived the idea of natural farming [自然農法]. On my return to Shikoku, I retreated to my father's orchard to try this out. This was during the early years of the war. As the war escalated, a life of leisurely isolation in the hills became impossible, so I joined the agricultural testing station in neighboring Kōchi Prefecture, where I was placed in charge of insect damage and worked through to the end of the war. While at the Kōchi testing centre, I did scientific research on farming methods and ran around providing guidance and instruction to the local farmers on growing rice and barley and on encouraging seed germination. Our goal at the time was to maximize food production for the war effort. At the same time, however, I had this idea of natural farming [自然農法] in the back of my head [mind]. So along with the scientific research I was doing, I also did some research of my own on natural farming. When the war ended, I was free to go at last and become a farmer as I had desired. I wasted no time in putting my ideas into practice.
So I was still a youth when I happened upon the idea of "do-nothing" farming. But although I knew that such a way existed, I had no idea at first how to carry it out in practice. I didn't know the methods. For thirty years since then I've farmed in search of those methods.
Eventually, I came to have some idea of what these are.Is "Do-Nothing" Farming Possible? ––––––––––––––––––––––
...
The Paradoxes of Scientific Farming ––––––––––––––––––––
...
Naturally Farmed Rice ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
The Pit of Knowledge –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
Ignorant Agriculture, Misguided Medicine –––––––––––––––
...
Is Natural Farming Catching On? ––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
My Method of Natural Farming –––––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
Nature as Teacher ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
...
* * *
I delivered this lecture before the Sekai Kyūsei Kyō more than ten years ago [in 1975]. Today things are a little different on my farm [ca. 1986]. About four years ago, I stopped having students stay at my orchard huts and retired into a solitary life of seclusion and study. My son and his wife care for half of my orchard, while I manage the other half and a little over an acre of rice paddy, where I do as I please.
Depending on how you look at it, this orchard may seem disorderly wilderness now, but I think that in the space of a few short years it will gradually take on the form of an integrated farm, something which I await with great anticipation.
As for the rice field, for thirty five years now I have employed a direct–seeding, no–till, rice/barley succession in a green manure cover [since 1950]. But because it has become clear to me what methods can be practised anywhere and by anyone, over the past few years I have made some significant changes in my methods [early 1980s].
–– -- macropneuma 09:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
–– -- macropneuma 08:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Point Of View (POV) is not neutral and not verifiable, lacking the reliable sources.
Refer to the first of numerous POV disputes, at: Talk:Masanobu_Fukuoka#The_quotations_of_his_biographically_and_personally_most_important_goals_deleted_without_any_explanation
–– -- macropneuma 06:21, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
I move that the topic is now neutral enough and tidied up enough to meet general Wikipedian standards. Iyo-farm ( talk) 07:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
The Recent developments section seems to suggest that the farm is being maintained in the traditional way, yet the photo credits "Place of Fukuoka's family farmlands, now farmed in a modern, conventional manner." suggest otherwise. What is the real situation now and does that section need to be reworded? -- Salix ( talk): 16:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
The article is Masanobu Fukuoka. Not about farming per se, of any way. Section headings must relate to the article by its title, according to basic Wikipedia policy. It is nonsense to say Masanobu Fukuoka's "Recent developments". From User:?Iyo-farm?'s first edits' changes it was always about the subject of recent farming practises since his son started to take over management in the 1980s—To continue with the Nature/Natural Farming section. It has no good reason to be separate from that Nature/Natural Farming section.
Click the following links and follow their links in turn:
Esu Coop Osaka exchange visit to Fukuoka Masanobu's son's family's nature farm (page posted 2004 Dec) -includes great photos of the farm having interesting and helpful captions' text, eg. 91 year old Mr. Fukuoka; the Ama-Natsu-Mikan and their orchard; Daikon radishes growing in the Ama-Natsu-Mikan orchard; a current serious pest problem of white spotted longicorn beetle; Family, young people and employees working there and nearby; A ginko orchard part of the larger whole orchard, etc.
Elder Mr. Fukuoka meeting again with owner of Mahoroba Natural Foods store, with many details, as at 2008 Feb, including of Fukuoka Masanobu's advanced age condition; the condition and running by his Son and his Wife of the Nature Farm, and so on.
It says, the Pagoda is desolate, as the owner is no longer there, and therefore lectures are no longer held there by him, respectfully addressed as late Mr. Fukuoka Masanobu.
It says, the mountain mud walled hut where he stayed decades before 2008 is weathering, as if it wouldn't. My home, my late father's small farm house inside our SE Australian wet forest microclimate is only 20 years old and is really weathered too, from that same wet humid climate. These don't and can't be made to say or mean some grandiose interpretation about the entire farm's management.
I will translate the messages of more of this later when time permits. All our disruptor–here had to do to go wrong as they evidenced, was to badly read some Japanese sources and blow them out of all proportion and perspective... .
Farmer Philosopher Masanobu Fukuoka (1) Humans must Strive to Know the Unknown Japan Spotlight 2008
The set of links herein in turn (summer 2010)
As i have written above, and linked immediately above, i have secondary, third party, reliable verifiable sources from a professional journalist in Japan who was invited by the Fukuoka family to tour, write about and photograph the farm last year, summer 2010.
I have already provided above links to his reliable sources of the farm status. His sources in full in his Japanese original writing and photographs, and his own English succinct summary description: (again) the set of links here—click through all the links and pages to read the succinct English, the photographs, the full Japanese description and photo captions, and on his site's other pages see his credentials as journalist in Japan.
Above in talk i discreetly discussed the making of those photos from him available more on a public site, including seeking his permission to make them available here.
In sum a variety of practises are nowadays carried out in different areas of the farm, including as some areas continuing straw mulched cropping, without using seedballs, and including some areas of standard no-till, organic farming (not conventional as no chemicals are used), some areas of no-till weed-mat covered row cropping (yes plastic weed mat), etcetera. Masanobu Fukuoka sowed without seedballs many of the crops, but he did use seedballs for the rice crops, anyways. This rice with seedballs has been clearly stated as not continued now. The orchard has some areas continuing with the same trees and with some areas of continuing self-reproducing wild vegetables underneath those old trees, including daikons, mustards, turnips, and more i don't know nowadays all about the varieties that are growing, as much as i would like to know, as a farmer myself. They have in other areas changed practises from old orchard trees to new varieties of citrus, and new fruit trees altogether, as already documented. They have been growing those Shiitake mushrooms in shady areas of the maturing woodland. A photo of this, Shiitake mushrooms in the maturing woodland, is publicly available in the existing cited sources linked above, along with more photos of the above variety of kinds of farm areas, from 2004, 2008 and summer mid 2010.
More sources and even more reliable sources again, are available as already said many times.
I have more than 100 Japanese newspaper articles from the 1980s till very recently, consisting of a mix of those by other journalists about Masanobu Fukuoka and by Masanobu Fukuoka writing himself, in Japanese majors newspapers for example the Asahi Shimbun. I have to go through all—eventually... . i will copyedit this text above later ––-- macropneuma 07:39, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Just to flag up other action going on elsewhere. There was another mental vomit all over the topic Nature farming, ( here), which underlines Macropneuma agenda over this whole "Nature Farming" versus "Natural Farming". I am sorry but it is an awful petty, one man argument regarding the translation of the kanji shizen nōhō.
Yes, I agree, there was a little confusion in this area. It is the nature of Kanji that they can be translated in many ways and it is difficult to argue which one is "right" or "wrong". However, I think there is an overpoweringly strong argument to say that "Nature Farming" for Okada and "Natural Farming" for Fukuoka has been adopted as convention internationally. Especially by Okada's followers, who appear far more numerous than Fukuoka's, and have established schools and associations etc in the name of "Nature Farming".
I reject absolutely any mishmash confusion of the two differing methods. I am sorry Macropneuma but if you cannot see how badly composed and confusing those edits were, you really should not be editing the Wikipedia.
This makes me very suspicious about the claims he is making over the renaming of Okada's method to shizen nōhō in 1950 and I'd like to see better references to support this. It strikes me it is symptomatic of his obsession with Fukuoka. Okada's work does, of course, pre-date Fukuoka. I am reading this as a suggestion Okada was influenced by Fukuoka or 'stole' Fukuoka's terminology which I doubt. Iyo-farm ( talk) 23:39, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Ah ... silence.
Nothing but the sound of the higurashi to disturb one in one's garden.
How can I add a soundtrack to the Fukuoka topic? Iyo-farm ( talk) 09:59, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to have a phonetic pronunciation of Masanobu Fukuoka's name? (For Westerners / English speakers) — Preceding unsigned comment added by WideEyedPupil ( talk • contribs) 06:41, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
If one actually reads reference 26, which is cited in the Criticisms section ('Body and Earth Are Not Two' : Kawaguchi Yoshikazu's NATURAL FARMING and American Agriculture Writers), one would understand that that particular passage of it is not critical of Fukuoka at all. What it is trying to say is that, though Fukuoka's specific practices on his farm are not universally applicable (due to the obvious fact that ecosystems and climates vary from location to location, among other things), his principles can still be universally applicable. Kawaguchi is the farmer who described Fukuoka's method as being a "grow-nothing" method, only because he tried to apply the same exact techniques to his own farm and failed. It took him years of following Fukuoka's principles before he finally succeeded at developing his own form of natural farming that worked for him personally. The article cited goes on to say that it should not be called "Fukuoka's Method" because the "methods" of natural farming will necessarily be as numerous as the farmers who practice them. All farmers can follow Fukuoka's principles, but must ultimately come to create their own particular method.
This aspect of the article is not a "criticism" at all and is instead a clarification. Whoever wrote the Criticisms sections was being misleading or simply did not fully understand the article they cited.
An earlier citation of this article in the "Influence" section, uses the article to claim that Fukuoka's techniques are too technical for many people to understand. There was no study of any kind conducted to confirm this. This is merely the anecdotal experience of one man, Kawaguchi himself. If we're going to talk about the supposed difficulty and technicality of Fukuoka's techniques, we must mention that it is only in the opinion of Kawaguchi. Furthermore, the likening of Fukuoka to an authoritarian grandfather figure is made only by the author of the article. Why should we state the opinion of this one man as if it is a widely accepted criticism? We need to properly attribute these criticisms so readers have a better understanding of where the criticism is coming from and what is its scope. Berserk798 ( talk) 21:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
First read User:Berserk798's talk section here. User:Berserk798's salient, non–perfunctory, start, to making an assessment of the sourcing of this article, before i even get started on criticising the further depth of poor sourcing. Especially the poor sourcing spread through it, in over-statements and unverifiable sources, misdirecting impressions against the reliable source evidence. Those over-statements and mis-directions not based on reliable sources.
——-- macropneuma 11:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
X ——-- macropneuma 10:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
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——-- macropneuma 10:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC) ——-- macropneuma 21:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC) ——-- macropneuma 22:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
——-- macropneuma 05:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Can't you see how the stuff like the authormask being set to 3 screwed up the formatting by blanking his name off? There are specific guidelines for its use.
So, User:NULL (you've my consensus on experimentally trying that point:) remove the translations you suggested, and we'll see?? ——-- macropneuma 10:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC) ——-- macropneuma 11:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
If one actually reads reference 26, which is cited in the Criticisms section ('Body and Earth Are Not Two' : Kawaguchi Yoshikazu's NATURAL FARMING and American Agriculture Writers), one would understand that that particular passage of it is not critical of Fukuoka at all. What it is trying to say is that, though Fukuoka's specific practices on his farm are not universally applicable (due to the obvious fact that ecosystems and climates vary from location to location, among other things), his principles can still be universally applicable. Kawaguchi is the farmer who described Fukuoka's method as being a "grow-nothing" method, only because he tried to apply the same exact techniques to his own farm and failed. It took him years of following Fukuoka's principles before he finally succeeded at developing his own form of natural farming that worked for him personally. The article cited goes on to say that it should not be called "Fukuoka's Method" because the "methods" of natural farming will necessarily be as numerous as the farmers who practice them. All farmers can follow Fukuoka's principles, but must ultimately come to create their own particular method.
This aspect of the article is not a "criticism" at all and is instead a clarification. Whoever wrote the Criticisms sections was being misleading or simply did not fully understand the article they cited.
An earlier citation of this article in the "Influence" section, uses the article to claim that Fukuoka's techniques are too technical for many people to understand. There was no study of any kind conducted to confirm this. This is merely the anecdotal experience of one man, Kawaguchi himself. If we're going to talk about the supposed difficulty and technicality of Fukuoka's techniques, we must mention that it is only in the opinion of Kawaguchi. Furthermore, the likening of Fukuoka to an authoritarian grandfather figure is made only by the author of the article. Why should we state the opinion of this one man as if it is a widely accepted criticism? We need to properly attribute these criticisms so readers have a better understanding of where the criticism is coming from and what is its scope. Berserk798 ( talk) 21:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Please read all that is relevant and discuss. ——-- macropneuma 15:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Kato source: This source doesn't say what has been stated in the article here—editor's mis-interpretation synthesis not attributable to the source. Kato writes: (– my italics and my bracketed Kawaguchi name added)
Kawaguchi himself converted from conventional farming to Fukuoka’s famous ‘do-nothing’ techniques around 1979. Perhaps he [Kawaguchi] should have called them “grow- nothing” techniques because he [Kawaguchi] failed completely, harvesting almost no crops for two years. However, he persisted with Natural Farming, not as ‘techniques’ but as a set of principles, and after struggling for ten years he finally succeeded in finding his own way of farming. He did so by observing the four principles laid down by Fukuoka, that is: no plowing, no fertilizers, no weeding, and no chemicals. Kawaguchi has said that at first he was not fully convinced by Fukuoka’s do-nothing theory, but once he understood that the aim of Natural Farming was to cultivate the land as it must have been in the earliest days of cultivation, some ten thousand years ago, rather than to let it go totally wild, he saw the light. He didn’t name his approach ‘the Kawaguchi Method’ because he claimed that potentially there could be as many methods of Natural Farming as there are people who practice it.
I believe that if Kawaguchi’s ideas and practices were better known, the four principles of Natural Farming might become applicable much more widely, not only in Japan but also in America and other places in the world. Of course, the tech- niques might need to be adapted according to the local conditions, but the prin- ciples can be applied almost anywhere.
Source: Japan Spotlight 2008 161th promenade: unreliable on that state today. From the journalist's visit prior to publication in Sept/Oct 2008, it clearly states organic farming, strictly not conventional at all, and states a lot about natural farming with Etienne. We know from better, more specific sources and better photos that the farm has areas of both, areas of organic farming in the scientific sense and natural farming, with straw mulch in the terms of late Fukuoka, Masanobu.
The better 2010 source, already provided, by professional journalist, Brian Covert, including his photos, who was invited to the farm, not a misconstruing uninvited person, has much clearer again descriptive writing that both organic farming and natural farming areas continue to be practiced in different parts, but not any kind of conventional farming. 161 promenade source does not say they are tilling, anywhere, i read it (again now). Selective bias using this photo without inckuding photos of the nature farming areas..
——-- macropneuma 19:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
——-- macropneuma 03:47, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Definitely better sources—original criticisms publications—not citations of other people's/these criticisms, and more likely reliable and more reliable sources, are the following two examples:
{{
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——-- macropneuma 21:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to have a phonetic pronunciation of Masanobu Fukuoka's name? (For Westerners / English speakers) — Preceding unsigned comment added by WideEyedPupil ( talk • contribs) 06:41, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
"Seriously sadistic--masochistic--self-destructive and seriously defamatory ... a really genuinely evil person, a real devil as sneaky and devious as they are ... a consciously, deliberately sadistic person" (that me folks!).
See: WP:MEAT and WP:CANVAS -- Iyo-farm ( talk) 16:27, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
OK, I am a little apprehensive about Macropneuma’s return to this topic for reasons documented previously on this talk page archive.
An immediate repetition of the whitewashing dispute and FUBAR edits such as [7] do not do much for my confidence. I've removed "natural philosopher" from the biographical box as natural philosopher has an entirely different meaning in English and some of the bitty, extraneous fritters that do nothing but complicated the article.
You've got a tendency to be a little obsessive over details that really do not matter and over complicate things, e.g. there is no harm to changing all of the 'ref names' but it really makes no difference to the reader, it is merely for the sake of the code.
I also still argue that Natural Farming should be capitalized as a proper noun to differentiate it from the purely adjectival (and misleading) use of the term "natural".
Thank you. -- Iyo-farm ( talk) 05:23, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
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macropneuma
14:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)Not agreed; matters of facts (from reliable sources available on request), silliness, falsehoods thrown at Fukuoka now repeated again (mud slinging), and of undue personal comments. To say the least, disappointed. Hmm, BTW, in case you haven’t noticed i’m exercising my sense of humour at the silly attack.
Re: diff: Re: diff: Direct quotations in context:
In any event, I was a very busy, very fortunate young man, spending my days in amazement at the world of nature revealed through the eyepiece of the microscope, struck by how similar this minute world was to the great world of the infinite universe. In the evening, either in or out of love, I played around and enjoyed myself. I believe it was this aimless life, coupled with fatigue from overwork, that finally led to fainting spells in the research room. The consequence of all this was that I contracted acute pneumonia and was placed in the pneumothorax treatment room on the top floor of the Police Hospital. It was winter and through a broken window the wind blew swirls of snow around the room. It was warm beneath the covers, but my face was like ice. The nurse would check my temperature and be gone in an instant.
As it was a private room, people hardly ever looked in. I felt I had been put out in the bitter cold, and suddenly plunged into a world of solitude and loneliness. I found myself face to face with the fear of death. As I think about it now, it seems a useless fear, but at the time, I took it seriously. I was finally released from the hospital, but I could not pull myself out of my depression. In what had I placed my confidence until then? I had been unconcerned and content, but what was the nature of that complacency? I was in an agony of doubt about the nature of life and death. I could not sleep, could not apply myself to my work. In nightly wanderings above the bluff and beside the harbor, I could find no relief. One night as I wandered, I collapsed in exhaustion on a hill overlooking the harbor, finally dozing against the trunk of a large tree. I lay there, neither asleep nor awake, until dawn. I can still remember that it was the morning of the 15th of May. In a daze I watched the harbor grow light, seeing the sunrise and yet somehow not seeing it. As the breeze blew up from below the bluff, the morning mist suddenly disappeared. Just at that moment a night heron appeared, gave a sharp cry, and flew away into the distance. I could hear the flapping of its wings. In an instant all my doubts and the gloomy mist of my confusion vanished. Everything I had held in firm conviction, everything upon which I had ordinarily relied was swept away with the wind. I felt that I understood just one thing. Without my thinking about them, words came from my mouth: "In this world there is nothing at all. . . ."I felt that I understood nothing.*
[Footnote]*To "understand nothing," in this sense, is to recognize the insufficiency of intellectual knowledge.
— Masanobu Fukuoka, The One–Straw Revolution, 1978 Rodale
Please, different responsible editors, who are my peers or better competence, join this article and better edit it. I wish!—together, with me—and i have wished so, forever. -- macropneuma 13:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Can I remind you both of Wikipedia:No personal attacks: "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks do not help make a point; they only hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about other contributors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to blocks."
Macropneuma is unwilling to go the sandbox route, so please allow me to start a new section for 'suggested improvements' of the topic. If anyone knows of a better way to lay out such a discussion, please reformat as required.
I'll go through the topic and unpick proposed changes as time allows. If Macropneuma would list his suggestions and justifications here, I would appreciate it.
As a rule, for me, "less is more". I am unconvinced the topic benefits from much of the visual clutter and 'micro-detailing' Macropneuma is seeking to add, but others might disagree with me. Likewise, this is an English language Wiki and so I do not understand the need for extensive Japanese language documentation. Presumably if anyone has that serious an interest they will learn the language and go to the primary sources but it strikes me that, according to policy, English language sources are sufficient. -- Iyo-farm ( talk) 11:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Please discuss.
natural philosophy
noun [ mass noun ] archaic
natural science, especially physical science.
DERIVATIVES
natural philosopher noun
This article has many {{ dead link}}s in the references notes citations. Please fix the links. I'll tag the dead links, as already did, as was reverted in breach of WP policies. -- macropneuma 15:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Globalize/West ← see these links of this one example of these policies, also. -- macropneuma 09:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I am sorry but I have to consider a number of the most recent revision to be quite deliberate bad faith edits [9] on behalf of Macropneuma.
Direct copies of
For example,
and if we look at minor details,
I am sorry but, no. Stop reverting. Please discuss your intentions beforehand and justify them.
You don't have a right to waste other people's time in this manner. Thank you. -- Iyo-farm ( talk) 12:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Policies: WP:BEHAVE - conduct ——-- macropneuma 01:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Who do you think anonymously–you are kidding – eg. Are we supposed to not notice that these two below quotations from different talk post words of yours above seem are suited to your argumentation at that time you're making that post and yet when juxtaposed near enough to impossible to both be true – nearly impossible belonging in the one person.
This has gone on long enough it is time we moved towards a formal Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. There are a number of options
I'm not sure if we actually have a content dispute, or if we do its lost in the rest. How should we move forward?-- Salix ( talk): 09:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm concerned there's an overdose of Japanese text in the bibliography, partly due to the use of the asiantitle template. I've looked over the articles for several Japanese authors and it appears that the usual method for representing written works is to put either the translated title or romaji first, then the Japanese title in parentheses. This makes it easier for an English reader to skim the titles while still presenting the Japanese original title nearby.
Does anyone have any thoughts or preferences on how this section should be formatted? Personally I would prefer to have the romaji/translated title appear first. –
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03:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
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The link to http://ir.nul.nagoya-u.ac.jp/jspui/bitstream/2237/7865/1/kato.pdf was interesting, it confirms my own experience, that very few people have successfully replicated Fukuoka's experiment (but a great many, including myself, seem to have tried and failed). Is there any data on this? If I'm correct and the technique is not easily replicable, should Fukuoka really be called a pioneer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pignut ( talk • contribs) 05:57, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
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Sorry, that it is a "Documentary" may be an info there, and the duration (24m 37s), too, please.
´Being´ "Best" and "a Must Watch", if it does not belong to the title, then not necessary.
(Revisions) Masanobu Fukuoka: Difference between revisions
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Masanobu_Fukuoka&diff=next&oldid=1008334929#In_English
Thanks. --
Visionhelp (
talk)
14:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)