This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Anonymous IP editor who has been editing the lead, please do not remove information from the lead claiming that it is factually incorrect unless you can prove that it is so.
Unlike some pages on wikipedia, this page has been meticulously researched.
Also, please do not alter the meaning of sentences in the lead (or elsewhere) unless you are prepared to back up your statements. For example, the lead originally stated that Wollstonecraft wrote in several different genres; she did, in fact, do this. The list of her works is provided at the bottom of the page and any biography will confirm this (I will use Todd as my source - it is in the bibliography of this article).
Also the lead previously stated that Wollstoencraft's life story was more important than her works to the feminist movement. You changed the statement to "as important as." According to Cora Kaplan's essay in The Cambridge Companion to Wollstonecraft, cited in the article and in the bibliography, this is not the case.
If you have other information, please provide it, otherwise please leave the information that is sourced to the scholarly works on Wollstonecraft intact. Finally, as Kaldari already pointed out to you in her edit summaries, using the second definition of a word is perfectly legitimate; and to say that Wollstonecraft "presaged" the feminist movement is far more accurate than to say that she was a part of it (as you did).
There was no feminist movement when she was alive. Awadewit 03:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Several changes have been made to the article lead ( diff). Some of these changes are grammatically questionable and some of them change the meaning of the sentences to various degrees. Anyone want to discuss them? Here are the obvious grammatical problems:
but was something of an omen of things to come. I think the term "presaged" was fine, personally. Really, the ideal word to use there would be "portended" but it's something of an awkward word that no not everyone is familiar with.
Kaldari 03:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I hate to use the term, but Awadewit is right, you are butchering the lead. Most of your edits so far have not been very helpful. For example, the edits you just made to the last paragraph of the lead have several problems: 1. the feminist movement is not "approaching", 2. "[fill in blank]" is absolutely not acceptable and bordering on vandalism, 3. The activists are mentioned in the article, they dont need to be listed in the lead. The lead is supposed to be a summary of information presented in the article.
Why are you so intent on rewriting content that is already well written, has been reviewed and re-edited numerous times already, and is meticulouly researched? You would probably recieve a better reception if you suggested your changes on the talk page before editing the article. Just a suggestion. Kaldari 05:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
162.83.134.173, please stop editing the lead (I have a feeling you are the same person as 141.155.154.172) until you fully understand wikipedia's policies. You are introducting grammatical errors all over the lead:
You are introducting quotations without citations:
You are leaving out information. Please note that this is a Featured article; that means that it has passed a somewhat rigorous set of peer reviews and represents the best wikipedia has to offer. It should therefore not be left in a draft state by editors. If you want to add this information, find it!
You have also added a somewhat subjective statement; you said Wollstonecraft's affairs were "failed." We actually already rejected that word months ago because it is hard to prove that she thought they had failed. In fact, some scholars might argue Wollstonecraft got a lot out of her relationship with Imlay. Awadewit 05:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to change "presaged the later claims of the feminist movement" back to "presaged the later emergence of the feminist movement" since the whole point of the sentence originally was to let the reader know that Wollstonecraft's writing predated the existence of "feminism". The way it is worded now is ambiguous, i.e. maybe the feminist movement already existed but Wollstonecraft's writing only agreed with its "later" claims (second wave, etc). Kaldari 23:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for protecting, Kaldari. What is it with people, anyway? :) Awadewit | talk 15:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I have placed this article on indefinite semi-protection per the following semi-protection policies: "Indefinite semi-protection may be used for... (1) articles subject to heavy and continued vandalism... (2) biographies subject to vandalism and/or POV-pushing that are not widely watchlisted". As of June 5, 2007, 187 of the last 500 edits have been made by anonymous IP addresses. Of those 187 edits, all but 15 have been reverted (most as blatant vandalism). The 15 good edits are summarized below:
Hardly a compelling case for the usefulness of anonymous edits. Kaldari 21:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The section about her being a Yorkshirewoman seems to be a distracting digression to me. We have just established the reader's interest in the family's financial problems and frequent relocations, but then we undercut the reader's sympathy by talking about her sense of belonging in Yorkshire and her "warm" childhood memories. Then we go back to talking about the financial problems and her abusive father. It seems a bit disjointed. Perhaps just removing the quote would help. What do you think? Kaldari 15:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about adding the somewhat length passage from Wollstonecraft's letters in which she describes seeing Louis led off to be executed and her own reaction? It really is quite a stunning passage. Awadewit | talk 09:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
About nine o'clock this morning, the king passed by my window, moving silently along (excepting now and then a few strokes on the drum, which rendered the stillness more awful) through empty streets, surrounded by the national guards, who, clustering around the carriage, seemed to deserve their name. The inhabitants flocked to their windows, but the casements were all shut, not a voice was heard, nor did I see any thing like an insulting gesture.--For the first time since I entered France, I bowed to the majesty of the people, and respected the propriety of behaviour so perfectly in unison with my own feelings. I can scarcely tell you why, but an association of ideas made the tears flow insensibly from my eyes, when I saw Louis sitting, with more dignity than I expected from his character, in a hackney coach, going to meet death, where so many of his race have triumphed. My fancy instantly brought Louis XIV before me, entering the capital with all his pomp, after one of the victories most flattering to his pride, only to see the sunshine of prosperity overshadowed by the sublime gloom of misery. I have been alone ever since; and, though my mind is calm, I cannot dismiss the lively images that have filmmed my imagination all the day.--Nay, do not smile, but pity me; for, once or twice, lifting my eyes from the paper, I have seen eyes glare through a glass-door opposite my chair, and bloody hands shook at me. Not the distant sound of a footstep can I hear. . . . I wish I had even kept the cat with me!--I want to see something alive; death in so many frightful shapes has taken hold of my fancy.--I am going to bed--and, for the first time in my life, I cannot put out the candle. [1]
She wrote this to Joseph Johnson. Awadewit | talk 18:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Anonymous IP editor who has been editing the lead, please do not remove information from the lead claiming that it is factually incorrect unless you can prove that it is so.
Unlike some pages on wikipedia, this page has been meticulously researched.
Also, please do not alter the meaning of sentences in the lead (or elsewhere) unless you are prepared to back up your statements. For example, the lead originally stated that Wollstonecraft wrote in several different genres; she did, in fact, do this. The list of her works is provided at the bottom of the page and any biography will confirm this (I will use Todd as my source - it is in the bibliography of this article).
Also the lead previously stated that Wollstoencraft's life story was more important than her works to the feminist movement. You changed the statement to "as important as." According to Cora Kaplan's essay in The Cambridge Companion to Wollstonecraft, cited in the article and in the bibliography, this is not the case.
If you have other information, please provide it, otherwise please leave the information that is sourced to the scholarly works on Wollstonecraft intact. Finally, as Kaldari already pointed out to you in her edit summaries, using the second definition of a word is perfectly legitimate; and to say that Wollstonecraft "presaged" the feminist movement is far more accurate than to say that she was a part of it (as you did).
There was no feminist movement when she was alive. Awadewit 03:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Several changes have been made to the article lead ( diff). Some of these changes are grammatically questionable and some of them change the meaning of the sentences to various degrees. Anyone want to discuss them? Here are the obvious grammatical problems:
but was something of an omen of things to come. I think the term "presaged" was fine, personally. Really, the ideal word to use there would be "portended" but it's something of an awkward word that no not everyone is familiar with.
Kaldari 03:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I hate to use the term, but Awadewit is right, you are butchering the lead. Most of your edits so far have not been very helpful. For example, the edits you just made to the last paragraph of the lead have several problems: 1. the feminist movement is not "approaching", 2. "[fill in blank]" is absolutely not acceptable and bordering on vandalism, 3. The activists are mentioned in the article, they dont need to be listed in the lead. The lead is supposed to be a summary of information presented in the article.
Why are you so intent on rewriting content that is already well written, has been reviewed and re-edited numerous times already, and is meticulouly researched? You would probably recieve a better reception if you suggested your changes on the talk page before editing the article. Just a suggestion. Kaldari 05:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
162.83.134.173, please stop editing the lead (I have a feeling you are the same person as 141.155.154.172) until you fully understand wikipedia's policies. You are introducting grammatical errors all over the lead:
You are introducting quotations without citations:
You are leaving out information. Please note that this is a Featured article; that means that it has passed a somewhat rigorous set of peer reviews and represents the best wikipedia has to offer. It should therefore not be left in a draft state by editors. If you want to add this information, find it!
You have also added a somewhat subjective statement; you said Wollstonecraft's affairs were "failed." We actually already rejected that word months ago because it is hard to prove that she thought they had failed. In fact, some scholars might argue Wollstonecraft got a lot out of her relationship with Imlay. Awadewit 05:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to change "presaged the later claims of the feminist movement" back to "presaged the later emergence of the feminist movement" since the whole point of the sentence originally was to let the reader know that Wollstonecraft's writing predated the existence of "feminism". The way it is worded now is ambiguous, i.e. maybe the feminist movement already existed but Wollstonecraft's writing only agreed with its "later" claims (second wave, etc). Kaldari 23:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for protecting, Kaldari. What is it with people, anyway? :) Awadewit | talk 15:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I have placed this article on indefinite semi-protection per the following semi-protection policies: "Indefinite semi-protection may be used for... (1) articles subject to heavy and continued vandalism... (2) biographies subject to vandalism and/or POV-pushing that are not widely watchlisted". As of June 5, 2007, 187 of the last 500 edits have been made by anonymous IP addresses. Of those 187 edits, all but 15 have been reverted (most as blatant vandalism). The 15 good edits are summarized below:
Hardly a compelling case for the usefulness of anonymous edits. Kaldari 21:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
The section about her being a Yorkshirewoman seems to be a distracting digression to me. We have just established the reader's interest in the family's financial problems and frequent relocations, but then we undercut the reader's sympathy by talking about her sense of belonging in Yorkshire and her "warm" childhood memories. Then we go back to talking about the financial problems and her abusive father. It seems a bit disjointed. Perhaps just removing the quote would help. What do you think? Kaldari 15:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about adding the somewhat length passage from Wollstonecraft's letters in which she describes seeing Louis led off to be executed and her own reaction? It really is quite a stunning passage. Awadewit | talk 09:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
About nine o'clock this morning, the king passed by my window, moving silently along (excepting now and then a few strokes on the drum, which rendered the stillness more awful) through empty streets, surrounded by the national guards, who, clustering around the carriage, seemed to deserve their name. The inhabitants flocked to their windows, but the casements were all shut, not a voice was heard, nor did I see any thing like an insulting gesture.--For the first time since I entered France, I bowed to the majesty of the people, and respected the propriety of behaviour so perfectly in unison with my own feelings. I can scarcely tell you why, but an association of ideas made the tears flow insensibly from my eyes, when I saw Louis sitting, with more dignity than I expected from his character, in a hackney coach, going to meet death, where so many of his race have triumphed. My fancy instantly brought Louis XIV before me, entering the capital with all his pomp, after one of the victories most flattering to his pride, only to see the sunshine of prosperity overshadowed by the sublime gloom of misery. I have been alone ever since; and, though my mind is calm, I cannot dismiss the lively images that have filmmed my imagination all the day.--Nay, do not smile, but pity me; for, once or twice, lifting my eyes from the paper, I have seen eyes glare through a glass-door opposite my chair, and bloody hands shook at me. Not the distant sound of a footstep can I hear. . . . I wish I had even kept the cat with me!--I want to see something alive; death in so many frightful shapes has taken hold of my fancy.--I am going to bed--and, for the first time in my life, I cannot put out the candle. [1]
She wrote this to Joseph Johnson. Awadewit | talk 18:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)