This article was nominated for deletion on 25 January 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Some more references, not yet used. [1] [2]
Tyrenius 06:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Which came first. Was he in the IRA and then agreed to inform, or did he agree to inform and then join the IRA (which some texts indicate, by saying he "infiltrated" the IRA)? Tyrenius 07:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever his initial motives, it is plain that McGartland became committed to thwarting the IRA which takes him out of the simple, pejorative informer category. If he had been a German passing information about the Nazis to the Allies, calling him an informer would be inconceivable.
And an agent by others. You know very well, O Fenian, that 'informer' is a pejorative POV term. Anyway the article says he infiltrated the IRA. That is not what informers do but it is what agents do. The article is at least more balanced and the tone less slanted so just leave it be. The lives saved aspect is derived from within the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.63.192 ( talk) 16:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
How could he be a traitor, O Fenian, if he was not in the IRA when he made the decision to infiltrate it? Your word count tells us nothing about Wikipedia's need for neutrality. Agent it must be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.161.39 ( talk) 12:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Martin_McGartland There is only one permitted discourse there and it involves no Catholic being allowed to be other than a loyal nationalist." It is a fact that Martin McGartland infiltraded the IRA, he was not connected with the IRA nor involved with the terrorist group before nor during his infiltration. He is (was an 'agent' [2] "There is also the question of what the term 'agent' actually means. Martin McGartland, who infiltrated the IRA in west Belfast, was an agent in the purest sense. He joined the IRA at the request of his handlers and did exactly what he was told; it involved no switch of loyalties." The History can not be re-written, like the case of Bobby Sands,. he was a convictied IRA terrorist who killed himself. We know know the IRA let many of the Hunger Strikers die.
The deal is one use in the opening paragraph.-- Fynire ( talk) 21:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
The first line doesn't make any sense. Nor does it read well. Surely, he was an IRA volunteer, terrorist or member, take your pick depending on your bias, but a Special Branch agent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.51.124 ( talk) 21:32, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
References
I have once again removed highly point-of-view and unsourced changes. To document one of the most egregious examples, "Martin McGartland was a special Agent and was not and never was a member of the IRA". Really? Exactly what contract was he under? He makes no such claim in his book, he was a standard paid informer. As for him never being a member of the IRA, completely contradicted by his book. The word "agent" is also misleading, since its meaning in English varies substantially according to location. He was an informer, say RTÉ, the Guardian, the Independent, the Belfast Telegraph, the BBC, the Irish Independent, 4NI and countless more, including senior Special Branch officer Ian Phoenix who describes McGartland as an informer in McGartland's own book! This article is not being written in the way McGartland would like himself to be described, not when all those use the wholly accurate label of informer. The lead notes his motiviation for joining the IRA, so the wholly incorrect "was not and never was a member of the IRA" is not necessary. If the rest needs to be discussed, so be it, but I have already demonstrated how deep the problems with the edit run. O Fenian ( talk) 10:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I entered the following "It is accepted that Martin McGartland infiltrated the IRA, in other words; He was before and during his infiltration of the IRA already an established agent. As a result, he was never in the true sense ever a member of the IRA" however this has still been removed !! it seems just because this is to do with the IRA, the term Informer has to be used.. so does this make people like Chris Penhaligon whom infiltrated Green peace, a member of Green peace and an informer.....NO...... because he was working for the British security service at the time, so it makes him an Agent... well this is the same case for Martin McGartland.....he was working prior to his infiltration for the British Security Service.... I think what I have entered is a fair and true to fact alternative to the previous... thank you -- Neilduffy112 ( talk) 05:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
As i have said on the other page I give up with trying to discuss the matter the page can be left as it is, i am contacting Wikipedia to have the page removed as it is to do with a living person, and factually in correct... also do you have permission from the author or his publisher to have a quote from the book on the page !!!! there is no tone given on either of the changes as it is a true fact, and that is what an encyclopaedia it is supposed to represent. -- Neilduffy112 ( talk) 13:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
As I have said I am not going to be changing the context of the page again. You are also contradicting yourself by one of the references you have placed on the page.... I do have permission to use this materiel and all materiel relating to Martin McGartland as I have already stated prior to this message. Have a pleasant evening O Fenian -- Neil Duffy ( talk) 19:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC) If was no work of yours, then it should of been removed straight away if the person/persons do not have permission to use the text from the book (Fifty Dead Men Walking, page 6 line 25-33). just a suggestion as you are quick enough to remove everything else placed on the page, and after all it is a BLP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilduffy112 ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I am not, and have not said I am the copy right holder, however I do have permission to use all information written and quoted by, the above mentioned and others for the work I am doing, I have no conflict of interest on the contrary, I just like to see things written correctly and factually. And with the paragraph copied and pasted from the book it should be removed as it states in the front of the book. You have to have permission to use any works, quotes e.t.c, and WP does not have the permission from the above or from the publishers, so it is a breach of copyright..... Just remember WP is not a law unto itself and does on many occasions step a fine line between fact and fiction. I am removing the quote with permission of a third party.. as I have said I will not be doing anything else on this page. -- Neil Duffy ( talk) 15:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I am curious as to what your views are on informers and agents, those who have given information against the terrorist groups in N. Ireland???? as you do seem to be quite out spoke on the topic. Oldtart ( talk) 16:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
http://www.martinmcgartland.co.uk and facebook http://www.facebook.com/marty.mcgartland Oldtart ( talk) 18:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
as i i said i have i can not get logged on with that account.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldtart ( talk • contribs) 05:28, 14 March 2011 (UTC) O Fenian, Is an IRA man a freedom fighter or is he a terrorist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanbo1908 ( talk • contribs) 12:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Is there any evidence the website is actually official? Any webmaster can add the word official to a page, it doesn't make it so. Is there any verifiable connection between the third-party webmaster and Martin McGartland? 2 lines of K 303 10:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Hi, first of all I find the article very readable and informative. One problem I have is eg " He occasionally drove IRA punishment squads around and overheard them boast about the beatings they had meted out to their victims, many of whom were innocent people who had somehow incurred the wrath of a member of the IRA." The reference here is his book. Would it not be more accurate to say "He says..."
This applies to a lot of the content that is presented as fact when it is his story. I'm not doubting anything, just that its presented as verified and it isn't, not by the references anyway. I'm not suggesting heavy editing out of things, but maybe a reframing in certain parts for accuracy. Thoughts? Cjwilky ( talk) 06:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Martin McGartland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 03:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Martin McGartland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:31, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Martin McGartland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:03, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 25 January 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Some more references, not yet used. [1] [2]
Tyrenius 06:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Which came first. Was he in the IRA and then agreed to inform, or did he agree to inform and then join the IRA (which some texts indicate, by saying he "infiltrated" the IRA)? Tyrenius 07:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever his initial motives, it is plain that McGartland became committed to thwarting the IRA which takes him out of the simple, pejorative informer category. If he had been a German passing information about the Nazis to the Allies, calling him an informer would be inconceivable.
And an agent by others. You know very well, O Fenian, that 'informer' is a pejorative POV term. Anyway the article says he infiltrated the IRA. That is not what informers do but it is what agents do. The article is at least more balanced and the tone less slanted so just leave it be. The lives saved aspect is derived from within the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.63.192 ( talk) 16:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
How could he be a traitor, O Fenian, if he was not in the IRA when he made the decision to infiltrate it? Your word count tells us nothing about Wikipedia's need for neutrality. Agent it must be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.161.39 ( talk) 12:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Martin_McGartland There is only one permitted discourse there and it involves no Catholic being allowed to be other than a loyal nationalist." It is a fact that Martin McGartland infiltraded the IRA, he was not connected with the IRA nor involved with the terrorist group before nor during his infiltration. He is (was an 'agent' [2] "There is also the question of what the term 'agent' actually means. Martin McGartland, who infiltrated the IRA in west Belfast, was an agent in the purest sense. He joined the IRA at the request of his handlers and did exactly what he was told; it involved no switch of loyalties." The History can not be re-written, like the case of Bobby Sands,. he was a convictied IRA terrorist who killed himself. We know know the IRA let many of the Hunger Strikers die.
The deal is one use in the opening paragraph.-- Fynire ( talk) 21:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
The first line doesn't make any sense. Nor does it read well. Surely, he was an IRA volunteer, terrorist or member, take your pick depending on your bias, but a Special Branch agent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.51.124 ( talk) 21:32, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
References
I have once again removed highly point-of-view and unsourced changes. To document one of the most egregious examples, "Martin McGartland was a special Agent and was not and never was a member of the IRA". Really? Exactly what contract was he under? He makes no such claim in his book, he was a standard paid informer. As for him never being a member of the IRA, completely contradicted by his book. The word "agent" is also misleading, since its meaning in English varies substantially according to location. He was an informer, say RTÉ, the Guardian, the Independent, the Belfast Telegraph, the BBC, the Irish Independent, 4NI and countless more, including senior Special Branch officer Ian Phoenix who describes McGartland as an informer in McGartland's own book! This article is not being written in the way McGartland would like himself to be described, not when all those use the wholly accurate label of informer. The lead notes his motiviation for joining the IRA, so the wholly incorrect "was not and never was a member of the IRA" is not necessary. If the rest needs to be discussed, so be it, but I have already demonstrated how deep the problems with the edit run. O Fenian ( talk) 10:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I entered the following "It is accepted that Martin McGartland infiltrated the IRA, in other words; He was before and during his infiltration of the IRA already an established agent. As a result, he was never in the true sense ever a member of the IRA" however this has still been removed !! it seems just because this is to do with the IRA, the term Informer has to be used.. so does this make people like Chris Penhaligon whom infiltrated Green peace, a member of Green peace and an informer.....NO...... because he was working for the British security service at the time, so it makes him an Agent... well this is the same case for Martin McGartland.....he was working prior to his infiltration for the British Security Service.... I think what I have entered is a fair and true to fact alternative to the previous... thank you -- Neilduffy112 ( talk) 05:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
As i have said on the other page I give up with trying to discuss the matter the page can be left as it is, i am contacting Wikipedia to have the page removed as it is to do with a living person, and factually in correct... also do you have permission from the author or his publisher to have a quote from the book on the page !!!! there is no tone given on either of the changes as it is a true fact, and that is what an encyclopaedia it is supposed to represent. -- Neilduffy112 ( talk) 13:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
As I have said I am not going to be changing the context of the page again. You are also contradicting yourself by one of the references you have placed on the page.... I do have permission to use this materiel and all materiel relating to Martin McGartland as I have already stated prior to this message. Have a pleasant evening O Fenian -- Neil Duffy ( talk) 19:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC) If was no work of yours, then it should of been removed straight away if the person/persons do not have permission to use the text from the book (Fifty Dead Men Walking, page 6 line 25-33). just a suggestion as you are quick enough to remove everything else placed on the page, and after all it is a BLP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilduffy112 ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I am not, and have not said I am the copy right holder, however I do have permission to use all information written and quoted by, the above mentioned and others for the work I am doing, I have no conflict of interest on the contrary, I just like to see things written correctly and factually. And with the paragraph copied and pasted from the book it should be removed as it states in the front of the book. You have to have permission to use any works, quotes e.t.c, and WP does not have the permission from the above or from the publishers, so it is a breach of copyright..... Just remember WP is not a law unto itself and does on many occasions step a fine line between fact and fiction. I am removing the quote with permission of a third party.. as I have said I will not be doing anything else on this page. -- Neil Duffy ( talk) 15:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I am curious as to what your views are on informers and agents, those who have given information against the terrorist groups in N. Ireland???? as you do seem to be quite out spoke on the topic. Oldtart ( talk) 16:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
http://www.martinmcgartland.co.uk and facebook http://www.facebook.com/marty.mcgartland Oldtart ( talk) 18:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
as i i said i have i can not get logged on with that account.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oldtart ( talk • contribs) 05:28, 14 March 2011 (UTC) O Fenian, Is an IRA man a freedom fighter or is he a terrorist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanbo1908 ( talk • contribs) 12:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Is there any evidence the website is actually official? Any webmaster can add the word official to a page, it doesn't make it so. Is there any verifiable connection between the third-party webmaster and Martin McGartland? 2 lines of K 303 10:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Hi, first of all I find the article very readable and informative. One problem I have is eg " He occasionally drove IRA punishment squads around and overheard them boast about the beatings they had meted out to their victims, many of whom were innocent people who had somehow incurred the wrath of a member of the IRA." The reference here is his book. Would it not be more accurate to say "He says..."
This applies to a lot of the content that is presented as fact when it is his story. I'm not doubting anything, just that its presented as verified and it isn't, not by the references anyway. I'm not suggesting heavy editing out of things, but maybe a reframing in certain parts for accuracy. Thoughts? Cjwilky ( talk) 06:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Martin McGartland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 03:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Martin McGartland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:31, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Martin McGartland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:03, 19 January 2018 (UTC)