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I'm not going to contest the neutrality of this article just yet, but according to Richard Abanes' book "One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church," (pg. 146) Martin Harris eventually became dissatisfied with the Mormon Church due to the splintering, and later converted to Shakerism. Something about that needs to be mentioned in this article, which seems to have a substantial Mormon bias.-- ICXCNIKA 23:01 GMT
It is clear from Rhett James and other authors that Martin served a mission with the strangites but was never joined. In fact he was kicked off the mission because he refused to preach strangite religion. Perhaps Richard Abanes confused this religion with the strangites.-- Jumpinbean ( talk) 14:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
An article has appeared in a widely-read e-magazine indicating the article has some issues. Here is th article. http://ldsmag.com/article/1/12100/1/page-1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.219.88.164 ( talk) 17:11, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Why was the quote I introduced stating that he never denied seeing the plates removed? gdavies 21:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what evidence we're relying on to judge Martin Harris' affiliations with other churches, but it seems that (from his statements) his primary purpose for going on a mission to England was to bear testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. He was eventually sent back to Philadelphia because of this... While he did associate with these groups, it's obvious from his behavior that he was torn between his personal differences with Joseph Smith and his testimony of the Plates. It looks like the section needs to be worked on a little to reflect this ambiguity. gdavies 00:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Palmer saying that Harris (or anyone else) had a "magical world view" proves that "Palmer thinks they had a magical world view," and nothing more than that. He's not an expert on "historical speculative psychology" (neither is anyone else) and is therefore not qualified to make such a statement. Please do not include these types of speculation as facts. POV's are welcome on the talk page, but not in the article. gdavies 17:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I think "unexplained deletion" was too harsh a comment, but Harris's testimonies are very different from one another, and if I have to lay all the evidence for that, I will.-- John Foxe 14:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmm... it looks like we're trying to turn this into a back cover for a Palmer or Vogel book. The text you just added (and thanks for looking that up by the way) even says "Several hostile and perhaps unreliable accounts told of visionary experiences..." Perhaps we should treat these accounts with equal care. Something along the lines of, "those who were critical of Harris reported several visionary experiences they say Harris had," or something to that effect (and much more clearly worded). The article currently (besides having too much information on this specific topic) seems to lean to far on believing these somewhat questionable and apt to be misrepresented accounts. gdavies 05:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we just state the facts? I've edited this section I think 3 or 4 times and each time it's been reverted by John Foxe:
I edited to remove the commentary that implied these accounts were contradictory (Removed "sometimes"' and "or"). Also, earlier on it says "but he changed his religion 5 times" or something to that effect. We have to avoid words like "but" "yet" "nevertheless" "however," etc. because they advance a POV. For instance, the wording of this particular phrase implies that he really wasn't all that nice of a guy (honest, respectful and prosperous) because he changed his religion several times. These elements aren't even related, so a "but" doesn't really make sense here. Anyone else agree? gdavies 16:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for working with me on this one, I'm going to copy the sentence here to make it easier for me to show why I have a problem with its wording:
I know that adding several unnecessary qualifiers throughout an article can detract from it, but I think that we need to actually increase them in this situation. For instance, "he was an honest, respected, and prosperous farmer." Respected by whom? Surely he wasn't thought honest by all who deny his testimony of the plates. The issue can be resolved as "He was described by neighbors as honest, respected and prosperous." The last part of the sentence is also problematic. The issue arises with the word "but," as it did in the introductory paragraph. I think it'd be best to end the sentence there and restart with a new qualifier instead of implying that he really wasn't honest, respected, and prosperous because he was superstitious. See what I mean? The third problem is with "even" which seems to be a peacock type phrase. We could say "compared to others," or just leave it as "unusually superstitous". I would recommend:
After that, there are some accounts of questionable occurences that are currently stated as fact, and we need to work on that too, but I guess we'll work on this part first. gdavies 19:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Recently added reference of Phineas Young letter was moved to the endnotes, which is fine, but the notion that Harris was only briefly interested in Shakerism is an understatement. The Young letter shows that he was willing to be quite emphatic about his belief, to the point of placing it over his deeper, more long term commitment to Book of Mormon.--- Tsluke 17:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned about what appears to be an overuse of the primary sources from Vogel's Early Mormon Documents; currently 19 of the 35ish references given inline come from one of the volumes of that source. -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 20:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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I'm not going to contest the neutrality of this article just yet, but according to Richard Abanes' book "One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church," (pg. 146) Martin Harris eventually became dissatisfied with the Mormon Church due to the splintering, and later converted to Shakerism. Something about that needs to be mentioned in this article, which seems to have a substantial Mormon bias.-- ICXCNIKA 23:01 GMT
It is clear from Rhett James and other authors that Martin served a mission with the strangites but was never joined. In fact he was kicked off the mission because he refused to preach strangite religion. Perhaps Richard Abanes confused this religion with the strangites.-- Jumpinbean ( talk) 14:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
An article has appeared in a widely-read e-magazine indicating the article has some issues. Here is th article. http://ldsmag.com/article/1/12100/1/page-1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.219.88.164 ( talk) 17:11, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Why was the quote I introduced stating that he never denied seeing the plates removed? gdavies 21:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what evidence we're relying on to judge Martin Harris' affiliations with other churches, but it seems that (from his statements) his primary purpose for going on a mission to England was to bear testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. He was eventually sent back to Philadelphia because of this... While he did associate with these groups, it's obvious from his behavior that he was torn between his personal differences with Joseph Smith and his testimony of the Plates. It looks like the section needs to be worked on a little to reflect this ambiguity. gdavies 00:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Palmer saying that Harris (or anyone else) had a "magical world view" proves that "Palmer thinks they had a magical world view," and nothing more than that. He's not an expert on "historical speculative psychology" (neither is anyone else) and is therefore not qualified to make such a statement. Please do not include these types of speculation as facts. POV's are welcome on the talk page, but not in the article. gdavies 17:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I think "unexplained deletion" was too harsh a comment, but Harris's testimonies are very different from one another, and if I have to lay all the evidence for that, I will.-- John Foxe 14:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmm... it looks like we're trying to turn this into a back cover for a Palmer or Vogel book. The text you just added (and thanks for looking that up by the way) even says "Several hostile and perhaps unreliable accounts told of visionary experiences..." Perhaps we should treat these accounts with equal care. Something along the lines of, "those who were critical of Harris reported several visionary experiences they say Harris had," or something to that effect (and much more clearly worded). The article currently (besides having too much information on this specific topic) seems to lean to far on believing these somewhat questionable and apt to be misrepresented accounts. gdavies 05:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we just state the facts? I've edited this section I think 3 or 4 times and each time it's been reverted by John Foxe:
I edited to remove the commentary that implied these accounts were contradictory (Removed "sometimes"' and "or"). Also, earlier on it says "but he changed his religion 5 times" or something to that effect. We have to avoid words like "but" "yet" "nevertheless" "however," etc. because they advance a POV. For instance, the wording of this particular phrase implies that he really wasn't all that nice of a guy (honest, respectful and prosperous) because he changed his religion several times. These elements aren't even related, so a "but" doesn't really make sense here. Anyone else agree? gdavies 16:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for working with me on this one, I'm going to copy the sentence here to make it easier for me to show why I have a problem with its wording:
I know that adding several unnecessary qualifiers throughout an article can detract from it, but I think that we need to actually increase them in this situation. For instance, "he was an honest, respected, and prosperous farmer." Respected by whom? Surely he wasn't thought honest by all who deny his testimony of the plates. The issue can be resolved as "He was described by neighbors as honest, respected and prosperous." The last part of the sentence is also problematic. The issue arises with the word "but," as it did in the introductory paragraph. I think it'd be best to end the sentence there and restart with a new qualifier instead of implying that he really wasn't honest, respected, and prosperous because he was superstitious. See what I mean? The third problem is with "even" which seems to be a peacock type phrase. We could say "compared to others," or just leave it as "unusually superstitous". I would recommend:
After that, there are some accounts of questionable occurences that are currently stated as fact, and we need to work on that too, but I guess we'll work on this part first. gdavies 19:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Recently added reference of Phineas Young letter was moved to the endnotes, which is fine, but the notion that Harris was only briefly interested in Shakerism is an understatement. The Young letter shows that he was willing to be quite emphatic about his belief, to the point of placing it over his deeper, more long term commitment to Book of Mormon.--- Tsluke 17:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned about what appears to be an overuse of the primary sources from Vogel's Early Mormon Documents; currently 19 of the 35ish references given inline come from one of the volumes of that source. -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 20:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
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