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We still have the problem in the lede that I complained about a year and a half ago: it's too vague. Adoption also creates kinship, after all (which again is what I said a year and a half ago). Can we come up with a lede that actually describes marriage? Mangoe ( talk) 21:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
It seems that some of the problems with defining marriage stems from editors having different points of departure. Here are some views from different anthropological schools taken form an anthropological textbook. It particularly talks about how the western individual concept of marriage is different from the kinship based concept prevalent in many other societies:
·Maunus·ƛ· 19:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Hello,
I do not know how to edit things on Wikipedia but I just wanted to let you know that your section on "mehr" does not appear to be correct. Mehr in Islam is considered a gift that is payable to the wife beginning at the time of her marriage, unless she chooses to designate part or all of the payment as "deferred." Mehr payable beginning at marriage is called "prompt" Mehr and may be demanded by the wife at any time. If the husband refuses to pay it she may refuse to engage in marital relations with him. By contrast, "deferred" Mehr is not payable until death or divorce. This article also conflates Mehr with alimony. Islam does not recognize alimony for a wife past the period of Iddat (unless the husband and wife had a pre-existing agreement about it) although her ex-husband must provide "maintenance" (child support) to their minor children. Mehr is also NOT the wife's share in the husband's estate. It is true that unpaid Mehr becomes a debt at the death of the husband which must be paid out of his estate. However, Mehr is not an inheritance share. It must be paid to the wife out of the estate BEFORE the remainder of the estate can be distributed to the Islamic heirs. When the rest of the estate is distributed to the heirs, the wife, as one of the Islamic heirs, will be entitled to a share of the estate whether or not she has already received her deferred Mehr from the estate.
If you would like to see a very good summary on the topic of Mehr, go to: http://www.zawaj.com/payments-to-and-from-the-bride-in-islamic-law-and-tradition/
( 58.65.152.230 ( talk) 18:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC))
I don't know who did write this section, but I sure that he/she is not very aware of marriege in Islam, becuase what is written uder shia Islam is just the same of what happens in Sunna Islam, so I do suggest putting them under one subtitle Islam, because now this makes confusion for non-muslims and non-religous muslims.
Thank you very much
92.98.55.191 ( talk) 16:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC) Salam
Nowhere does the original reference appear. Only "IBID" types referring to "Hanlon & White". Can someone who knows the reference fix? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crosslink ( talk • contribs) 01:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
<<comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 19:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)>
The poster above raises the issue of same-sex marriage having its own subsection under 'Marriage and religion.' The poster isn't right about there being two sections: there are actually more, since 'Marriage restrictions' includes same-sex marriage and 'Contemporary views' is mostly about same-sex marriage. Now compare that to interracial marriage. There is only one section on interracial marriage, the one under marriage restrictions that talks about US miscegenation laws. But interracial marriage is a vast topic representing 1 in 7 marriages in the US. (And it's been an issue for a long time. Look at Othello.) Polygamy is mentioned only in a few scattered sentences despite being a larger controversy than same-sex marriage in most Muslim societies, where same-sex marriage is mostly not an issue. Close-kin marriage gets a paragraph in the US section and maybe two other sentences elsewhere, despite >10% of all marriages being between relatives, with the same-sex proportion obviously being far less.
Judging by representation in the world, it seems like SSM has too much weight. The only question is whether "controversy" is explicitly a factor in assigning weight. But considering the situation outside the West, even if all weight is assigned based on controversy alone, I still think these other restrictions deserve greater weight. To make one concrete proposal, let's either add subsections on other restrictions to 'Marriage and religion', OR remove same-sex marriage as its own subsection.
I can add these subsections if there is some agreement on this. — Othniel Kenaz 20:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
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Hello. After discussion on the talk page I believe there is consensus to add subsections under
Marriage and religion after its last subsection. I have therefore made the following.
Religious groups have differing views on the legitimacy of polygyny, or the practice of a man taking more than one wife. Most Christian groups prohibit it and condemnations can be found from very early Christian leaders. [1] But polygamy is allowed in Islam and also Confucianism, though in most areas today it is uncommon. [2] [3] Religious law on polygamy has evolved over time in religions like Judaism and Hinduism.
Religion has commonly weighed in on the matter of which relatives, if any, are allowed to marry. Relations may be by consanguinity or affinity, meaning by blood or by marriage. On the marriage of cousins, Catholic policy has evolved from initial acceptance, through a long period of general prohibition, to the modern-day requirement for a dispensation. [4] Islam has always allowed it, while Hindu strictures vary widely. [5] [6]
— Othniel Kenaz 18:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
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In the last paragraph under the section Modern Customs, it seems that "man" and "woman" should be plural. Also, it is bit comma-heavy.
Ezphilosophy (
talk)
06:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
<comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Othniel Kenaz 23:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)>
subtopic Sex and procreation ........ second paragraph On the other hand, marriage is not a prerequisite for having children.......In the United States, the highest judicial body ruled in the case Griswold v. Connecticut that procreation within marriage could be abridged by artificial insemination.
It seems clear to me that the word "contraception" vice "insemnation" is required.
Would someone who is knowledgable of editing make the change, please.
71.235.145.26 ( talk) 12:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)mesterquest@yahoo.com
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The following statement is opinionated and should be removed. One can not state that there is a long history of recorded same-sex unions and then follow that by the comment it is believed. The only statement of fact within the sentence is regarding the Theodosian Code. The statement references same-sex unions not marriage. If it is to be retained, at a minimum it should be placed under the definition of same-sex unions and not marriage.
There is a long history of recorded same-sex unions around the world.[43] It is believed that same-sex unions were celebrated in Ancient Greece and Rome,[43] some regions of China, such as Fujian, and at certain times in ancient European history.[44] A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) issued in 342 CE imposed severe penalties or death on same-sex marriage in ancient Rome[45] but the exact intent of the law and its relation to social practice is unclear, as only a few examples of same-sex marriage in that culture exist.[46]
ZeepAl ( talk) 05:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
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Request changes in section 9.4 Hinduism. Last line says " Hindu widows cannot remarry." This is factually wrong.
" The Hindu Widow's Remarriage Act 1856 empowers a Hindu widow to remarry. Though traditionally widow remarriages were frowned upon and are still considered taboo in many parts of India, the society is changing and the incidence of widow remarriage is on a rise."
125.22.37.66 ( talk) 11:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC) Pooja
< http://www.lawisgreek.com/widow-remarriage-under-hindu-laws/> <lawcommissionofindia.nic.in/51-100/Report81.pdf>
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Marriage as defined in the Oxford English Dictionary (Compact) - the formal union of a man and a woman, by which they become husband and wife. Don't tell me this is just western. 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 00:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster definitionMain Entry: mar·riage Pronunciation: \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry Date: 14th century 1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage 2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities 3 : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage Merriam-Webster's Advanced Learner's Dictionary definitionmar·riage Pronounced: /ˈmerɪʤ/Listen to audio Function: noun Inflected forms: plural mar·riag·es Meaning: 1 a : the relationship that exists between a husband and a wife [count] ▪ It was his second marriage. ▪ They have a very happy marriage. ▪ Her first two marriages ended in divorce. [noncount] ▪ She has old-fashioned ideas about marriage. ▪ the institution of marriage ▪ He proposed marriage to his girlfriend. [=asked his girlfriend to marry him] ▪ couples living together before marriage ▪ They were joined in marriage [=they were married] last year. ▪ They are related by marriage. [=they are related because one of them is married to a family member of the other] —see also arranged marriage, civil marriage, marriage of convenience, mixed marriage b : a similar relationship between people of the same sex [count] ▪ a same-sex marriage [noncount] ▪ opponents/supporters of same-sex marriage ▪ gay marriage 2 [count] : a ceremony in which two people are married to each other ▪ Many friends and relatives were present at their marriage. ▪ a priest who has performed many marriages 3 [singular] : a close union of or between two things ▪ a marriage of sweet and spicy flavors ▪ a marriage of science and art ▪ a marriage between form and function http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/marriage Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English definitionmar‧riage 1 [uncountable and countable] the relationship between two people who are married, or the state of being marriedCOLLOCATIONS happy/unhappy marriage mixed marriage (=between people of different races or religions) arranged marriage (=your parents choose the person who you marry) loveless marriage a marriage breaks down (=it ends because of disagreements) the breakdown/break-up of your marriage (=the end of your marriage) sex before marriage/outside marriage be born outside marriage (=be born when your parents are not married) propose marriage formal (=ask someone to marry you) consummate a marriage (=make your marriage complete by having sex) annul a marriage formal (=a court or church leader officially ends a marriage) She has three daughters from a previous marriage. One in three marriages ends in divorce. marriage to his marriage to Marilyn Monroe marriage between In Denmark they have legalized marriage between gay couples. They have a very happy marriage. children of mixed marriages Women were often forced into arranged marriages. She felt trapped in a loveless marriage. She moved to London after the break-up of her marriage. My parents disapprove of sex before marriage. More than half of all births in the region are outside marriage. 2 [countable] the ceremony in which two people get married [= wedding]: The marriage took place at St Bartholomew's church. 3 by marriage if you are related to someone by marriage, they are married to someone in your family, or you are married to someone in theirs: her cousin by marriage http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/marriage No matter how you look at the issue, by many respected dictionaries and by the dozens countries all over the world supported fact is that marriage involves two people. And there is no reason to hold this fact back from the Wikipedia users/readers. Resolved. Settled. Like it or not. Articles have to be editted in WP:NPOV fashion. -- Destinero ( talk) 06:08, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
You are right I have got nothing to worry about in that regard, but someone was attempting to link my IP to that username a short time ago. I would be interested (not worried about) what was going on then? 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 18:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
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I do not have any of Barth's writings, and I am quoting him here from a another book, the ellipsis is not my own, but the complete quote is surely worth searching out and including in the article. Could someone do this. I think it comes from his book The Doctrine of Creation Vol. 3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 13:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Cased closed? yet another example of a single editor unknowledgable on the subject acting like a member of a judiciary. Barth's views on marriage are quite relevant to this article within the section on christian marriage. The quote is plain english - the reason it may be unclear to some (though surely not to all) is that as I pointed out it is incomplete - which is why I asked if someone could reference the fuller context of it. One has no right here to dismiss Barth as not being an expert on marriage. Anthropology and Sociology do not have a monopoly on the subject - though they both have valid insights to contribute. The christian understanding of marriage is theological first. Please stop confusing not being notable with I haven't heard of him. No editor here is knowledgable on every subject - those with a smidgin of humility are quick to ask first than assume themselves to be experts.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.164.15 ( talk • contribs) 17:24, August 14, 2010
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Unproductive discussion. 'Discussing' what you think other editors' 'agendas' are is nothing but disruptive. Discuss content, not editors.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 22:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Didn't the lede used to specify that most marriage are between individuals of opposite sex, and or that most marriages were monogamous? No matter how broadly we use this term nowadays, I believe the current lede is not explicit enough about the most common form of marriage. I'm a proponent of gay marriage as a legal institution, and I recognize that the entry should include all forms of marriage, but I do think that it is informative to point out what the most common form of marriage is in practice. Thoughts? Griswaldo ( talk) 16:51, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Please be sensible in the degree of indentation you use. There is no need for using such language either generally or directed at particular users. I realise you have not used the terms directly at anyone but using them generally in the way you do is not helpful to the discussion either 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 20:00, 14 August 2010 (UTC) You really do sound like Brucejenner. Now, arguing that there is an agenda, that other users POV push, is nothing but disruptive. Do not comment on other users in this way, just discuss the content. I urge you to stop, continuing in this manner will simply make you look like either a meatpuppet, or a sock(by way of an anonymity site) of Brucejenner. And I'm sure you know what happens to socks of banned users.—
Dæ
dαlus
Contribs
19:47, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a modern English dictionary; it is an encyclopedia. Therefore, it is not proscriptive, it is descriptive. And it describes all types of marriages throughout history, including Chinese and Hindu marriages—which, guess what, were not always monogamous or love marriages. The dictionary has a specific purpose, which is to define what people speaking a certain language in a certain place mean when they say something. And for Anglo-Saxon society in the modern era, when people say "marriage" in colloquial conversation, incidentally they are probably referring to a marriage between a man and a woman, because of heterosexuals' sheer numbers, but that doesn't preclude the population's understanding of other types of marriages.
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Woman - descriptive of a person of the feminine gender and female sex Marriage - most commonly understood to be a formal union of a man and a woman, by which they become husband and wife 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC) I wouldn't dare suggest we include the above in the article, if we want to be politically correct. 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Now that the accusation of "POV pushing" comes from CTFJ83, he/she is told to "ignore the IP". Daedalus will have something to say about you accusing editors of "POV pushing", as he was death on it earlier. 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:23, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Man - descriptive of a person of the masculine gender and male sex Woman - descriptive of a person of the feminine gender and female sex Marriage - most commonly understood to be a formal union of a man and a woman, by which they become husband and wife 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC) Could we have a productive discussion about the above. Thanks 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC) |
Discussion Closed due to there being no contributions for several months, and more recent discussion now taking place futher down this page |
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Please see Intersexuality for details. Some editors may wish to deny that marriage applies to the types of individuals described there, but of course if they wish to do so they must provide reliable sources. ( sdsds - talk) 05:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC) <comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)>
<comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)>
There are two reasons it makes sense: 1.The standard definition, for 6,000 years, is between a man and a woman. Why change this just because in very recent history, there are same sex marriages in only a handful of jurisdictions? 31 times ballot measures have been introduced to support gay marriage. All 31 went down in defeat. <comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)> <comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)>
<comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)>
It does occur to me as an aside, however, that we might want to think about whether "gender restrictions" are actually restrictions under all significant viewpoints, since many people might view those restrictions as just being part of the definition. Khin2718 ( talk) 02:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
(replying to pat) I guess I must have missed when the bible became law in the US. Doesn't your bible also say slavery is ok, women are property, and people who work on Sunday are put to death? You can't pick and choose what parts you want to believe in and what parts you ignore. CTJF83 chat 18:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC) Would anyone object if I changed "individuals" to "two individuals"? In the case of polygamy the relationship is still pairwise, since pairs of people are still married: the only difference is that one person can have many pairwise relationships. - Khin2718 ( talk) 01:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
"Individuals" sounds sterile, vague, and is not the common definition. Man and woman is the consensus mainstream definition. I think there are some people who want to include "individuals" as some recognition of these gay marriages,or perhaps some other reason. Gay marriage is only a recent fad and not accepted in many places. Andywatkins1888 ( talk) 02:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I support the current use of "individuals" in the lead. The word marriage is commonly used, even by those who disapprove gay marriage and group marriage, in those sentences, "individuals" is the most inclusive term to cover the various ways the concept is described. The current "individuals" text is also more accurately describes marriages including intersexed people, and in some cases transgendered folks. (Different states often come to different conclusions about whether a transgendered person is male or female.) Finally, "man" and "woman" conflates sex with gender in societies that recognize or have recognized a third gender, such as the Hijra (South_Asia). -- Joe Decker ( talk) 05:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC) "Individuals" covers all the bases. To call same-sex marriage a "recent fad" displays ignorance of the topic. ← Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I can't really agree with the "covering all bases" argument for the use of "individuals" in the first sentence of the definition of marriage. The word is NOT commonly used to describe either gay unions or group unions outside of the limited municipalities where such unions are recognized. The majority of definitions of marriage are specific to the union of a man and a woman. Both plural marriage and same-sex marriage are better addressed in specific subsections of the definition - ie history, marriage law and controversies - rather than the introductory paragraph.
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This sentence does not belong here. There are other places for value judgements. "John Witte, Professor of Law and director of the Law and Religion Program at Emory University, warns that contemporary liberal attitudes toward marriage ultimately will produce a family that is "haphazardly bound together in the common pursuit of selfish ends."[37]" Helen Webberley helenw@bigpond.net.au 27/6/2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.202.174 ( talk) 02:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
We still have the problem in the lede that I complained about a year and a half ago: it's too vague. Adoption also creates kinship, after all (which again is what I said a year and a half ago). Can we come up with a lede that actually describes marriage? Mangoe ( talk) 21:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
It seems that some of the problems with defining marriage stems from editors having different points of departure. Here are some views from different anthropological schools taken form an anthropological textbook. It particularly talks about how the western individual concept of marriage is different from the kinship based concept prevalent in many other societies:
·Maunus·ƛ· 19:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Hello,
I do not know how to edit things on Wikipedia but I just wanted to let you know that your section on "mehr" does not appear to be correct. Mehr in Islam is considered a gift that is payable to the wife beginning at the time of her marriage, unless she chooses to designate part or all of the payment as "deferred." Mehr payable beginning at marriage is called "prompt" Mehr and may be demanded by the wife at any time. If the husband refuses to pay it she may refuse to engage in marital relations with him. By contrast, "deferred" Mehr is not payable until death or divorce. This article also conflates Mehr with alimony. Islam does not recognize alimony for a wife past the period of Iddat (unless the husband and wife had a pre-existing agreement about it) although her ex-husband must provide "maintenance" (child support) to their minor children. Mehr is also NOT the wife's share in the husband's estate. It is true that unpaid Mehr becomes a debt at the death of the husband which must be paid out of his estate. However, Mehr is not an inheritance share. It must be paid to the wife out of the estate BEFORE the remainder of the estate can be distributed to the Islamic heirs. When the rest of the estate is distributed to the heirs, the wife, as one of the Islamic heirs, will be entitled to a share of the estate whether or not she has already received her deferred Mehr from the estate.
If you would like to see a very good summary on the topic of Mehr, go to: http://www.zawaj.com/payments-to-and-from-the-bride-in-islamic-law-and-tradition/
( 58.65.152.230 ( talk) 18:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC))
I don't know who did write this section, but I sure that he/she is not very aware of marriege in Islam, becuase what is written uder shia Islam is just the same of what happens in Sunna Islam, so I do suggest putting them under one subtitle Islam, because now this makes confusion for non-muslims and non-religous muslims.
Thank you very much
92.98.55.191 ( talk) 16:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC) Salam
Nowhere does the original reference appear. Only "IBID" types referring to "Hanlon & White". Can someone who knows the reference fix? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crosslink ( talk • contribs) 01:52, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
<<comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 19:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)>
The poster above raises the issue of same-sex marriage having its own subsection under 'Marriage and religion.' The poster isn't right about there being two sections: there are actually more, since 'Marriage restrictions' includes same-sex marriage and 'Contemporary views' is mostly about same-sex marriage. Now compare that to interracial marriage. There is only one section on interracial marriage, the one under marriage restrictions that talks about US miscegenation laws. But interracial marriage is a vast topic representing 1 in 7 marriages in the US. (And it's been an issue for a long time. Look at Othello.) Polygamy is mentioned only in a few scattered sentences despite being a larger controversy than same-sex marriage in most Muslim societies, where same-sex marriage is mostly not an issue. Close-kin marriage gets a paragraph in the US section and maybe two other sentences elsewhere, despite >10% of all marriages being between relatives, with the same-sex proportion obviously being far less.
Judging by representation in the world, it seems like SSM has too much weight. The only question is whether "controversy" is explicitly a factor in assigning weight. But considering the situation outside the West, even if all weight is assigned based on controversy alone, I still think these other restrictions deserve greater weight. To make one concrete proposal, let's either add subsections on other restrictions to 'Marriage and religion', OR remove same-sex marriage as its own subsection.
I can add these subsections if there is some agreement on this. — Othniel Kenaz 20:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Hello. After discussion on the talk page I believe there is consensus to add subsections under
Marriage and religion after its last subsection. I have therefore made the following.
Religious groups have differing views on the legitimacy of polygyny, or the practice of a man taking more than one wife. Most Christian groups prohibit it and condemnations can be found from very early Christian leaders. [1] But polygamy is allowed in Islam and also Confucianism, though in most areas today it is uncommon. [2] [3] Religious law on polygamy has evolved over time in religions like Judaism and Hinduism.
Religion has commonly weighed in on the matter of which relatives, if any, are allowed to marry. Relations may be by consanguinity or affinity, meaning by blood or by marriage. On the marriage of cousins, Catholic policy has evolved from initial acceptance, through a long period of general prohibition, to the modern-day requirement for a dispensation. [4] Islam has always allowed it, while Hindu strictures vary widely. [5] [6]
— Othniel Kenaz 18:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
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In the last paragraph under the section Modern Customs, it seems that "man" and "woman" should be plural. Also, it is bit comma-heavy.
Ezphilosophy (
talk)
06:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
<comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Othniel Kenaz 23:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)>
subtopic Sex and procreation ........ second paragraph On the other hand, marriage is not a prerequisite for having children.......In the United States, the highest judicial body ruled in the case Griswold v. Connecticut that procreation within marriage could be abridged by artificial insemination.
It seems clear to me that the word "contraception" vice "insemnation" is required.
Would someone who is knowledgable of editing make the change, please.
71.235.145.26 ( talk) 12:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)mesterquest@yahoo.com
{{
editsemiprotected}}
The following statement is opinionated and should be removed. One can not state that there is a long history of recorded same-sex unions and then follow that by the comment it is believed. The only statement of fact within the sentence is regarding the Theodosian Code. The statement references same-sex unions not marriage. If it is to be retained, at a minimum it should be placed under the definition of same-sex unions and not marriage.
There is a long history of recorded same-sex unions around the world.[43] It is believed that same-sex unions were celebrated in Ancient Greece and Rome,[43] some regions of China, such as Fujian, and at certain times in ancient European history.[44] A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) issued in 342 CE imposed severe penalties or death on same-sex marriage in ancient Rome[45] but the exact intent of the law and its relation to social practice is unclear, as only a few examples of same-sex marriage in that culture exist.[46]
ZeepAl ( talk) 05:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
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Request changes in section 9.4 Hinduism. Last line says " Hindu widows cannot remarry." This is factually wrong.
" The Hindu Widow's Remarriage Act 1856 empowers a Hindu widow to remarry. Though traditionally widow remarriages were frowned upon and are still considered taboo in many parts of India, the society is changing and the incidence of widow remarriage is on a rise."
125.22.37.66 ( talk) 11:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC) Pooja
< http://www.lawisgreek.com/widow-remarriage-under-hindu-laws/> <lawcommissionofindia.nic.in/51-100/Report81.pdf>
Unproductive discussion. |
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Marriage as defined in the Oxford English Dictionary (Compact) - the formal union of a man and a woman, by which they become husband and wife. Don't tell me this is just western. 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 00:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster definitionMain Entry: mar·riage Pronunciation: \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry Date: 14th century 1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage 2 : an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities 3 : an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage Merriam-Webster's Advanced Learner's Dictionary definitionmar·riage Pronounced: /ˈmerɪʤ/Listen to audio Function: noun Inflected forms: plural mar·riag·es Meaning: 1 a : the relationship that exists between a husband and a wife [count] ▪ It was his second marriage. ▪ They have a very happy marriage. ▪ Her first two marriages ended in divorce. [noncount] ▪ She has old-fashioned ideas about marriage. ▪ the institution of marriage ▪ He proposed marriage to his girlfriend. [=asked his girlfriend to marry him] ▪ couples living together before marriage ▪ They were joined in marriage [=they were married] last year. ▪ They are related by marriage. [=they are related because one of them is married to a family member of the other] —see also arranged marriage, civil marriage, marriage of convenience, mixed marriage b : a similar relationship between people of the same sex [count] ▪ a same-sex marriage [noncount] ▪ opponents/supporters of same-sex marriage ▪ gay marriage 2 [count] : a ceremony in which two people are married to each other ▪ Many friends and relatives were present at their marriage. ▪ a priest who has performed many marriages 3 [singular] : a close union of or between two things ▪ a marriage of sweet and spicy flavors ▪ a marriage of science and art ▪ a marriage between form and function http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/marriage Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English definitionmar‧riage 1 [uncountable and countable] the relationship between two people who are married, or the state of being marriedCOLLOCATIONS happy/unhappy marriage mixed marriage (=between people of different races or religions) arranged marriage (=your parents choose the person who you marry) loveless marriage a marriage breaks down (=it ends because of disagreements) the breakdown/break-up of your marriage (=the end of your marriage) sex before marriage/outside marriage be born outside marriage (=be born when your parents are not married) propose marriage formal (=ask someone to marry you) consummate a marriage (=make your marriage complete by having sex) annul a marriage formal (=a court or church leader officially ends a marriage) She has three daughters from a previous marriage. One in three marriages ends in divorce. marriage to his marriage to Marilyn Monroe marriage between In Denmark they have legalized marriage between gay couples. They have a very happy marriage. children of mixed marriages Women were often forced into arranged marriages. She felt trapped in a loveless marriage. She moved to London after the break-up of her marriage. My parents disapprove of sex before marriage. More than half of all births in the region are outside marriage. 2 [countable] the ceremony in which two people get married [= wedding]: The marriage took place at St Bartholomew's church. 3 by marriage if you are related to someone by marriage, they are married to someone in your family, or you are married to someone in theirs: her cousin by marriage http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/marriage No matter how you look at the issue, by many respected dictionaries and by the dozens countries all over the world supported fact is that marriage involves two people. And there is no reason to hold this fact back from the Wikipedia users/readers. Resolved. Settled. Like it or not. Articles have to be editted in WP:NPOV fashion. -- Destinero ( talk) 06:08, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
You are right I have got nothing to worry about in that regard, but someone was attempting to link my IP to that username a short time ago. I would be interested (not worried about) what was going on then? 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 18:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
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I do not have any of Barth's writings, and I am quoting him here from a another book, the ellipsis is not my own, but the complete quote is surely worth searching out and including in the article. Could someone do this. I think it comes from his book The Doctrine of Creation Vol. 3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 13:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Cased closed? yet another example of a single editor unknowledgable on the subject acting like a member of a judiciary. Barth's views on marriage are quite relevant to this article within the section on christian marriage. The quote is plain english - the reason it may be unclear to some (though surely not to all) is that as I pointed out it is incomplete - which is why I asked if someone could reference the fuller context of it. One has no right here to dismiss Barth as not being an expert on marriage. Anthropology and Sociology do not have a monopoly on the subject - though they both have valid insights to contribute. The christian understanding of marriage is theological first. Please stop confusing not being notable with I haven't heard of him. No editor here is knowledgable on every subject - those with a smidgin of humility are quick to ask first than assume themselves to be experts.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.164.15 ( talk • contribs) 17:24, August 14, 2010
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Unproductive discussion. 'Discussing' what you think other editors' 'agendas' are is nothing but disruptive. Discuss content, not editors.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 22:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Didn't the lede used to specify that most marriage are between individuals of opposite sex, and or that most marriages were monogamous? No matter how broadly we use this term nowadays, I believe the current lede is not explicit enough about the most common form of marriage. I'm a proponent of gay marriage as a legal institution, and I recognize that the entry should include all forms of marriage, but I do think that it is informative to point out what the most common form of marriage is in practice. Thoughts? Griswaldo ( talk) 16:51, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Please be sensible in the degree of indentation you use. There is no need for using such language either generally or directed at particular users. I realise you have not used the terms directly at anyone but using them generally in the way you do is not helpful to the discussion either 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 20:00, 14 August 2010 (UTC) You really do sound like Brucejenner. Now, arguing that there is an agenda, that other users POV push, is nothing but disruptive. Do not comment on other users in this way, just discuss the content. I urge you to stop, continuing in this manner will simply make you look like either a meatpuppet, or a sock(by way of an anonymity site) of Brucejenner. And I'm sure you know what happens to socks of banned users.—
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Wikipedia is not a modern English dictionary; it is an encyclopedia. Therefore, it is not proscriptive, it is descriptive. And it describes all types of marriages throughout history, including Chinese and Hindu marriages—which, guess what, were not always monogamous or love marriages. The dictionary has a specific purpose, which is to define what people speaking a certain language in a certain place mean when they say something. And for Anglo-Saxon society in the modern era, when people say "marriage" in colloquial conversation, incidentally they are probably referring to a marriage between a man and a woman, because of heterosexuals' sheer numbers, but that doesn't preclude the population's understanding of other types of marriages.
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Woman - descriptive of a person of the feminine gender and female sex Marriage - most commonly understood to be a formal union of a man and a woman, by which they become husband and wife 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC) I wouldn't dare suggest we include the above in the article, if we want to be politically correct. 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Now that the accusation of "POV pushing" comes from CTFJ83, he/she is told to "ignore the IP". Daedalus will have something to say about you accusing editors of "POV pushing", as he was death on it earlier. 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:23, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Man - descriptive of a person of the masculine gender and male sex Woman - descriptive of a person of the feminine gender and female sex Marriage - most commonly understood to be a formal union of a man and a woman, by which they become husband and wife 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC) Could we have a productive discussion about the above. Thanks 82.18.164.15 ( talk) 02:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC) |
Discussion Closed due to there being no contributions for several months, and more recent discussion now taking place futher down this page |
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Please see Intersexuality for details. Some editors may wish to deny that marriage applies to the types of individuals described there, but of course if they wish to do so they must provide reliable sources. ( sdsds - talk) 05:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC) <comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)>
<comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)>
There are two reasons it makes sense: 1.The standard definition, for 6,000 years, is between a man and a woman. Why change this just because in very recent history, there are same sex marriages in only a handful of jurisdictions? 31 times ballot measures have been introduced to support gay marriage. All 31 went down in defeat. <comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)> <comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)>
<comments by suspected sockpuppet of banned user Brucejenner ( talk · contribs) removed. Per WP:BAN, all edits of banned users may be removed and reverted on sight regardless of content.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)>
It does occur to me as an aside, however, that we might want to think about whether "gender restrictions" are actually restrictions under all significant viewpoints, since many people might view those restrictions as just being part of the definition. Khin2718 ( talk) 02:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
(replying to pat) I guess I must have missed when the bible became law in the US. Doesn't your bible also say slavery is ok, women are property, and people who work on Sunday are put to death? You can't pick and choose what parts you want to believe in and what parts you ignore. CTJF83 chat 18:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC) Would anyone object if I changed "individuals" to "two individuals"? In the case of polygamy the relationship is still pairwise, since pairs of people are still married: the only difference is that one person can have many pairwise relationships. - Khin2718 ( talk) 01:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
"Individuals" sounds sterile, vague, and is not the common definition. Man and woman is the consensus mainstream definition. I think there are some people who want to include "individuals" as some recognition of these gay marriages,or perhaps some other reason. Gay marriage is only a recent fad and not accepted in many places. Andywatkins1888 ( talk) 02:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I support the current use of "individuals" in the lead. The word marriage is commonly used, even by those who disapprove gay marriage and group marriage, in those sentences, "individuals" is the most inclusive term to cover the various ways the concept is described. The current "individuals" text is also more accurately describes marriages including intersexed people, and in some cases transgendered folks. (Different states often come to different conclusions about whether a transgendered person is male or female.) Finally, "man" and "woman" conflates sex with gender in societies that recognize or have recognized a third gender, such as the Hijra (South_Asia). -- Joe Decker ( talk) 05:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC) "Individuals" covers all the bases. To call same-sex marriage a "recent fad" displays ignorance of the topic. ← Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:49, 25 March 2010 (UTC) I can't really agree with the "covering all bases" argument for the use of "individuals" in the first sentence of the definition of marriage. The word is NOT commonly used to describe either gay unions or group unions outside of the limited municipalities where such unions are recognized. The majority of definitions of marriage are specific to the union of a man and a woman. Both plural marriage and same-sex marriage are better addressed in specific subsections of the definition - ie history, marriage law and controversies - rather than the introductory paragraph.
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This sentence does not belong here. There are other places for value judgements. "John Witte, Professor of Law and director of the Law and Religion Program at Emory University, warns that contemporary liberal attitudes toward marriage ultimately will produce a family that is "haphazardly bound together in the common pursuit of selfish ends."[37]" Helen Webberley helenw@bigpond.net.au 27/6/2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.202.174 ( talk) 02:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)