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The overall tone of this page seems to be less than professional. It's hard to say whether it's been written by a non-native English speaker, or by a young peron who lacks the ability to express her/himself well, but given the topic at hand, I think an effort should be made to "clean up" any poor grammar or unclear sentence structure. Glad to do so myself, but not really sure of the etiquette here.
I would like to move this page to "Marquis de Sade", which seems to be the more common way to refer to him. Any objections? AxelBoldt 00:24 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)
I'm a bit amazed that so much space is given to a few rumors about his life, and so little said about his work. I don't think that De Sade is more famous for some crime -if he ever committed any, as there is no solid allegation of it- than for his books...
If some people are interested in his work, it is not the purpose of a serious encyclopedia to prevent them of reading it. You may warn them of the explicit sexual descriptions, not invent the content of books you obviously haven't read... Let people make their own judgement!
Ju.
Sounds worthy of an NPOV flag to me -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Not for me, so I have removed it. The introductory paragraph clearly and IMHO correctly states what de Sade is famous for: his books. Then it goes on to describe his life and work, with roughly 40% of the article devoted to his work. If you find the description of his life or work inaccurate, please go ahead and improve them. In particular, I can't find any invented content of his books in the article, but if you do, just correct it and explain it here. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The factual accuracy of the Marquis de Sade article is disputed. I seriously doubt the story about the Marquis de Sade related to the storming of the Bastille. A different variant of it (which I also doubt) is in the article Bastille. I strongly believe he had been transferred to Charenton well before the storming of the Bastille, but I don't have a source to quote, just a reasonable knowledge of his life. It would be good if someone would sort this out. -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica writes:
It is my understanding that at the day of the storming of the Bastille, de Sade was not there anymore; he had already been transferred. If you know of a contradicting source, then please add it to the article; I don't think that your personal doubts are sufficient for a "factual accuracy is disputed" disclaimer. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The "a few days before" seems much likelier than the implication in the text that this was an immediately precipitating incident. And the article in Bastille clearly implies that he was one of the prisoners on July 14, which Britannica explicitly contradicts. I'm happy to clear this up by going more clearly with Britannica's version of events. Axel, is this OK with you, too? -- Jmabel 23:25, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Certainly. There are various versions of the events floating around on the internet, but from reading a biography of de Sade (forgot the title) and from the Encyclopedia Britannica, I think the following is the most likely course of events: de Sade shouts a few days before the storming of the Bastille, then he is moved to Charenton, then the Bastille is stormed. This link confirms this history: http://www.monsieurlesix.be/history/briefaccount6.html and it gives July 2nd as the date, which seems plausible. I'll edit our article accordingly and I'll do the same over at Bastille. AxelBoldt 16:56, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
From Sade, à biography by Jean-Paul Brighelli & from Vie du marquis de sade by Gilbert Lely (in french) :
fr:Utilisateur:Miniwark 15:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
http://73.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SA/SADE_DONATIEN_ALPHONSE_FRANCOIS_COUNT.htm
SADE, DONATIEN ALPHONSE FRANC.OIS, COUNT [usually called the MARQUIS DE SADE] (1740-1814), French licentious writer, was born in Paris on the 2nd of June 1740. He entered the light-horse at fourteen and saw considerable military service before returning to Paris in 1766. Here his vicious practices became notorious, and in 1772 he was condemned to death at Aix for an unnatural offence, and for poisoning. He fled to Italy, but in 1777 he was arrested in Paris, removed to Aix for trial, and there found guilty. In 1778 he escaped from prison, but was soon re-arrested and finally committed to the Bastille. Here he began to write plays and obscene novels. In 1789 h was removed to the Charenton Lunatic Asylum, but was discharged in 1790, only to be recommitted as incurable in 1803. He died there on the 2nd of December 1814. Among his works, all of the type indicated, were Justine (1791), Juliette (1792), Philosophic dans le boudoir (1793) and Les Crimes de I'amour (1800). The word Sadism, meaning a form of sexual perversion, is derived from his name.
An anon recently changed the name at the beginning of the article, changing "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" to "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Comte De Sade". (Well, actually, they also messed up the capitalization, but I fixed that.) I don't know enough about French noble titles to know if this is an improvement or is plain wrong, but I find it surprising. Why would a marquis be "Comte de Sade"? I would guess that he should either be named as "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" or "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Marquis De Sade".
I've never seen this capitalization practice anywhere (on this or any other similar French name) and none of the first 40 Google hits fail to use capitals (they vary on the hyphens). Can someone with a knowledge of French and a willingness to use a user-name rather than an IP address please weigh in? I'm really hesitant to take the word of someone who could so easily be trolling. -- Jmabel 00:16, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
born June 2, 1740, Paris, France died Dec. 2, 1814, Charenton, near Paris byname of "Donatien-alphonse-françois, Comte De Sade". If I find out how to use a user-name I'll gladly use it instead of my IP.
D. A. F. de Sade took the title "Marquis" upon his father's death because his grandfather had called himself "Marquis" and he'd gotten it into his head that the title should alternate between "Comte" and "Marquis" perhaps to avoid confusion as to who was whom. BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Recently categorized under "Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual people". Besides the fact that this category as such makes me a little nervous, I'm not at all sure it is appropriate. I realize de Sade did sadistic (duh!) things to males, but I'm unaware of him having sex with them. As far as I know, in sexuality as such he was pretty hetero. The article doesn't contain anything particularly to the contrary. Is there some basis for the claim? -- Jmabel 20:24, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
There's no evidence whatsoever that he tortured men. BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the Marquis de Sade was definitely bisexual by any definition. He liked to be sodomized by his valet. Check Neil Schaeffer's biography. BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
It is also known Sade enjoyed to insert various objects up his rectum. It was actually one of his main occupations while in prison. Nicolasgasne 19:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Sade himself has been cited as saying that he had imagined whatever was imaginable, but had accomplished far less in reality. In many instances de Sade is seen as a philosopher and a moralist, taking and impartial view to the "worst" of human desires. Just because he doesn't immediately denounce the scenes he depicts doesn't mean he endorces them. Unfortunately, beyond his literary works, much of what is said of him is based on rumour and speculation. Personally, I'd feel more comfortable with tagging him as "bi-curious" if such labels must be applied, since he was intrigued by all things sexual, but there is no definitive claim as to his true sexuality. 193.1.172.104 14:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)Suzie
He was bi. The LGBT writers from France category was already present; I just added the bisexual writers category. Werdnawerdna ( talk) 02:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
The following two edits were made recently, anonymously and without citation. I'm not fully up on the use of French titles, so someone else should either confirm of revert.
Jmabel | Talk 18:58, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
for the name Comte de Sade: de is ALWAYS lower case. You would translate it in English by "of". When someone received a title by the king and a land, he usually received the title and the land name. For example: John Smith gets the title of Count for Washington. His new name would be "Count John Smith of Washington" or "John Smith, Count of Washington"... most people dropped their last name, so they would call themselves : "Count John of Washington". But the "de" is always lower case. Also, when you refer to them by their last name, you never mention the "de" (of), unless their last name starts with a vowel... so in our example, you would say something like: "John Smith of Washington is coming for dinner tonight with his family" OR "The "Washington" are coming over tonight". You wouldn't say "The "de Washington" are coming over tonight".
About Comte or Marquis: I have checked the little book "Noblesse 2001" from Nicolas Guerre which lists all current true nobles in France. That family is not named in it... which means: either it is a extinct family, either they couldn't prove their noblety. I have also checked the "Bottin Mondain 2002" (sorry, don't have the latest ones): There are 3 families listed in it. ALL three have the title "Count"/Comte... but I can't really tell if they are related in any way to our "Comte/Marquis de Sade". Often, because in France, ONLY the oldest son will wear the "title" after the death of his father (except for the title of "Comte"... the oldest son is "Vicomte" once he his born, and will switch to "Comte" after the death of his father.). (The only exception to the oldest son getting the title is for the title of "Duc/Duchesse", but ONLY Royal family children are allowed to wear that title, and all children will wear it...
But for Comte/Marquis de Sade: What happens often in families, is that the brothers are a bit "jealous" of the title wore by the oldest son... so they take a "honorary title" for themselves. And often, they'll choose something different. That may have been the case here. Not sure... Someone would need to research that. But the rule is : A dog doesn't make a cat... A Comte doesn't make a Marquis as his son... so if you have various titles in the same family, most likely these are "honorary" titles to make the other kids feel better...
Hope this helps a bit. (I'm not an expert, but my family (on my mother's side) is from higher noblety in France, so I've got a little knowledge about it).
A recent uncommented anon change modified [[Charenton-le-Pont|Charenton]] to Charenton-Saint-Maurice (now Saint-Maurice, Val-de-Marne). I have no idea which is accurate, but certainly whichever it is it should be linked. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:13, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
The anon edit seems correct. From [2], [3], [4] and [5] the following story emerges: Charenton-le-Pont and Charenton-Saint-Maurice are neighboring parishes; the latter, which changed its name to "Saint Maurice" in 1842, has the asylum. The asylum is nowadays often simply called "Charenton". I'll edit the Charenton and Charenton-le-Pont entries accordingly. AxelBoldt 21:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I notice theres a list of movies about marquis de sade, but not a list of his books, I recently picked up a copy of "the mystifieed magistrate and other tales" by marquess de sade. However, many of these stories are given no refference. Perhaps they should be added for possible future articles at least. Jaynus _Izanagi 19:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
"…Sade's most seminal contribution to art…" -- Jmabel | Talk 00:36, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
Kekeke 75.24.213.105 06:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The quote below was tacked on at the end of the "Literary works" section. The original author should, by all means, try to revise this. I suggest incorporating it into the preceding passage, rather than by presenting a veiled personal opinion after the fact.
What, for instance, is "heathenistic promulgations"? Why may we "assume much of what Sade wrote to be lived vicariously..."? How, furthermore, is any of this clarified by the empty closing pronouncement "nothing can defeat nature but god is worthy of overthrowing"? This is a lot of cobbled-together nonsense. Let's have less of the non sequitur, and more argument and scholarly citation. Sade offers lots of opportunity for depth, but here I see only sophomoric moralism and big words.
Strunk and White, or Plain Words, by Sir Ernest Gowers, are good correctives for flowery language.
Vorpal Suds 1 July 2005 10:45 (UTC)
Just curious... when Wikipedia has such complete knowledge and links thereof for most authors, why has it only got a few incomplete links to works of the Marquis de Sade... and not in English? Anyone know where and/or how we could get links to de Sade in English? -- WAS 02:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC).
Ah... well, I guess that's too bad. But aren't there bound to be, when you think about it (considering the, uh, popular nature of de Sade's works), a few (hundred) sites which don't really care about copyright violations? I mean, just showing a link isn't actually incriminating for whoever put it there, now is it?... of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate (as usual)... not like anyone might actually do anything like what I'm am very thinly hinting at here... WAS 05:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
The only "official" English translation of nearly all of Sade's works (and his entire corpus has never been translated into English according to prominent Sadean scholar, John Phillips), is held by New York's Grove/Atlantic, Incorporated, the parent publisher of Grove Press, which was the first (and subsequently only) publisher to print Sade's so-called "libertine novels" (Juliette, Justine, The 120 Days of Sodom, and Philosophy in the Bedroom) in English, beginning in the 1960s. However, other English publishers, such as Penguin, have recently undertaken selective English translations, notably of Philosophy in the Bedroom (by them titled Philosophy in the Boudoir), among others. The Grove editions remain the academically-accepted standard for all English Sadean studies, and since the 1960s and apparently for the time being, are the only if not definitive English-language versions. Oxford is one of the sole printers of Sade's Crimes of Love, which it recently re-released in a handsome new edition. The rights to the Oxford and Grove collections are held jointly by the Sade family and their respective translators (i.e., Austryn Wainhouse and Richard Seavers) of each publishing house.
The Sade family managed to convince French courts to reopen the dormant (and basically non-existant, since copyright was not so common place if at all legally accepted yet in 18th Century France, though England had copyright at the time) Sade copyrights in the 1960s through 1980s, and though peculiar for a dead author of so many centuries ago to remain copyrighted, his works, regardless of original French or English, are indeed protected, which, once reinstated, actually means all 'outdated' translations were once again subject to copyright, meaning anything by Sade online is technically still active.
He has also entered the "official" French canon of literature, the Pleiade, which, a joint government cultural venture, renews and watches over the existing rights of its selected authors. Only about 25% of Sade's actual writings have survived into the present; one of his sons vehemently destroyed every manuscript he could find upon his father's death at Charenton, while Comte Xavier de Sade, the recent patriarch of the family, discovered additional manuscripts at a family property (an old trunk in a stone barn) in Provence in 1948 when he was then 26. It was he who successfully copyrighted Sade's works and all his and the family names' usages by the 1980s, as well as his own children and grandchildren that today monitor and approve all uses, such as translations. There are only a few articles in English talking about the modern Sade family, most articles are from the French media; I can link some online examples if needed. I am also in communication with the Sade family. Interestingly, as an example of the Sadean copyright debate, the notable play, "Marat/Sade", can never be performed with that title in France because of an injunction brought forward by the Sade family when it debuted in the 1960s; they never approved of the use of their ancestor's name in that manner, and dislike how he had been exploited to publicize the play, a play which only very indirectly involves Sade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.173.162 ( talk) 19:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I've heard more than once that the Marquis mother was a nun.
any truth to it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.241.245.49 ( talk • contribs) 23 Sept 2005.
His mother moved into a convent while her husband was still alive, but she did not take holy orders. BrianGCrawfordMA 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Recent addition: "including poisoning partygoers with belladonna, which he had heard was an aphrodisiac". Has someone got a citation for this? For one thing, I doubt he'd just "heard" it was an aphrodisiac, the belief was widespread at the time. In small enough doses, it's supposed to be an "interesting" drug, but, of course, the problem is that it's one of the things where a recreational dose is awfully close to a lethal dose. But if he actually killed someone trying that, it should be easy to document and cite. --- Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Belladona is most definitely not an "interesting" drug unless you think it's interesting to be unable to sweat or salivate. I took it for irritable bowel syndrome, and it has very unpleasant side effects. I've read two biographies of Sade, and nowhere have I found that he poisoned anybody with belladonna. BrianGCrawfordMA 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
No evidence has ever been brought that Sade ever killed anyone. The only persons that were "poisoned" threw up after eating those candies. Nicolasgasne 19:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
"By now extremely obese, he was even elected to the National Convention, where he represented the far left."
I don't understand why these two parts belong in one sentence (makes it sound he was elected *because* he was obese)...one idea per sentence... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Houarno ( talk • contribs) 9 Dec 2005.
I removed this:
Do we have any reference for the claim that Nietzsche was influenced by (or even read) Sade? AxelBoldt 05:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we do. In Jean Paulhan's essay, he cites the intellectuals who have declared Justine to be "favorite reading--at least during a certain period of their lives--with Lamartine, Baudelaire, and Swinburne, with Barbey d'Aurevilly and Lautreamont, with Nietzsche, Dostoevski, and Kafka (or, on a slightly different plane, with Ewerz, Sacher-Masoch, and Mirbeau) 70.248.223.52 06:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no "Guttering Museum of Natural History in New York. The Skull story is a hoax. I'm going to remove it.
There has been some philology about the study of his skull. I have heard that it had some grump on it, which maybe relates to his character. I thikn we should add more about it Pictureuploader 07:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
This sounds a bit like Phrenology to me. Hard to think how any "grump" on the bone could related to character.
that was mentioned on the History Channel special on him, it supposedly took place but not in New York. I can check it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.78.120.202 ( talk) 03:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The "skull story" depending upon which you are referring to, is rather "true." Sade's skull was removed after his burial, and is preserved indeed, in a museum, though not in New York (it has never been exhibited outside France). In fact, the skull exists today only as a plaster cast, which is missing the jaw. The item is part of the collection of the Musée de l'Homme in Paris, though not on permanent display. The rest of Sade's remains are still buried at Charenton. Confusingly, a horror film was made once based upon a book fictionalizing the skull, giving it a sort of evil power. The part about phrenology, however, is a true story, too. The plaster cast of the skull held in Paris was made solely for a phrenological exam in the nineteenth century. The cast can only be seen as a photograph, as it is in storage and understandably fragile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.173.162 ( talk) 19:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see another section with a list of his books he wrote and the time he wrote them. As for now, I have :
Dialogue entre un Prêtre et un Moribond (known in english as Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man), (1782)
Les infortunes de la vertu (1787)
Les 120 journées de Sodome (known in english as The 120 Days of Sodom), (1789)
Justine (1791)
Juliette (1792)
La Philolosophie dans le Boudoir (known in english as Philosophy in the Bedroom), (1795)
The dates might not be precise but almost. I might also be missing some books
There is also "Historiettes, Contes et Fabliaux" which means something like "Small stories". Here is the list below, I guess he wrote them in prison when he was first arrested, around 1777 to 1789, but that's just my guess.
Attrapez-moi toujours de même
Augustine de villeblanche ou Le stratagème de l'amour
Aventure incompréhensible et attestée par toute une province
Dorci ou La bizarrerie du sort
Il y a place pour deux
L'heureuse feinte
L'instituteur philosophe
L'époux complaisant
L'époux corrigé
L'évêque embourbé
La Marquise de Telême ou Les effets du libertinage
La châtelaine de Longeville ou La femme vengée
La fleur de chataingnier
La prude ou La rencontre imprévue
La saillie gasconne
Le M... puni
Le cocu de lui-même ou Le raccomedement imprévu
Le mari prêtre
Le président mystifié
Le revenant
Le serpent
Le talion
Les filous
Les harangueurs provençaux
Soit fait ainsi qu'il est requis
Émilie de Tourville ou La cruauté fraternelle
Anyone could help ?
-- Zurd 23:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What is a "protruding crump" and do we have a reference for the fact that one was found on his skull? AxelBoldt 16:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't there any mention of his travelogue through Italy? This was Sade's first book, written c.1773. He commissioned drawings for his book. It's a first hand account of what he saw while travelling. This book is really long (like his novels) although it has never been published in english. Adding it here would be nice because it shows that Sade was actually doing something during his self-exile in Italy. But I am not a Sade scholar and cannot give accurate historical context about this book.
Copied from NC titles talkpage:
...."Also concerning another point that exists for monarchs already 4. If a person is overwhelmingly best known by a cognomen, or by a name that doesn't fit the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name. Examples: Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, Henry the Lion, etc...".
As a note, the work 120 Days of Sodom is censored (as a book) in New Zealand (per the New Zealand Office of Film and Literature Classification and apparently is banned in many other countries. Perhaps this should be mentioned somewhere on the page? (I'm not sure where to find a list of countries that've banned the text). -- Liamf 06:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
"His is a philosophy of extreme freedom (or at least licentiousness), unrestrained by ethics, religion or law, with the pursuit of personal pleasure being the highest principle." I added the note on licentiousness as, arguably, Sade's philosophy does not actually grant freedom but only licence. -- Whitespace 21:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
There has been little or no mention of the Marquis and his long family history based in Mazan, where it is known that his family had a castle and more recently (around the 1700's ) a chateau. There seems to be some confusion about the family residence in La Coste and that of the Chateau de Mazan. Did the Marquis introduce his theatre events in Mazan or Lacoste? Since his family clearly originated in Mazan it is surprising that so little is written of his sojourn there with his uncle the Abbe and his time spent at the Chateau during his exile. Can someone fill in the missing history? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mazanais ( talk • contribs) 8 August 2006.
In "Scandals and Imprisonment", it is stated that Justine and Les Prospérités du Vice are still banned in France. I just bought a copy of the latter yesterday, editted by the French 10-18 ( http://www.10-18.fr/10_18/index.htm) from a used book store in Chinon, the Loire valley. The books are most assuredly not banned.
It has been possible to purchase published works by Sade in the present day since the 1960s. Any apparent ban would have to predate this. There was an attempt to censor a French publisher from publishing the works, on grounds, predictably, of obscenity, but the case was not successful, and led in the 1960s to the first 'modern' printing of Sade, still ongoing. In fact, the French government has officially endorsed the works of Sade as high literature, in fact, the highest, by assigning Sade to the national literary canon: the Pleiade. I think this honour should be evidence enough that France has not had a moral problem with its 'notorious' son for quite some time.
This section is a bit unclear. First off, are Lacoste and La Coste two different places? If they are, I'd feel a bit better if the article clarified it. Another issue is the slightly confusing chronology. For example, at one point it says "His mother-in-law obtained a lettre de cachet...and he was committed to the Bastille. During this imprisonment...", but then it seems to imply that he went on to other places without explaining how or why (or if) he escaped. 24.126.199.129 05:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It is Lacoste, in Vaucluse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.192.39.100 ( talk) 16:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't there a question of authorship for a number of his works? I don't see much mention of that in this article. 24.126.199.129 07:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Why was "he was never convicted of any crime" turned into "he was never technically convicted of any crime"? How is one non-technically convicted? - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
He was officially under the jurisdiction of the king, due to the letter-de-cachet, and as such, was not answerable to crimes in the regular court system. Thus, the convictions he received in the regular court system were, technically, invalid. Although, I don't care for the word "technically". Ideas, anyone?
. . . more hostile than it should be? I'm not saying it shouldn't be hostile to certain acts, but it seems to be hostile even to homosexuality. I think homosexuality is one of the things wikipedia is supposed to be neutral on . . .
Oh, by the way, if you know how to get rid of that annoying box thing on my comment, please do so. Thank you.Done
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
204.95.23.122 (
talk •
contribs)
04:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
This page is extremely hostile, and terribly factually incorrect.
I'd rewrite the entire article if I had the time -- perhaps I'll find the time at some point. This article definitely needs work.
Can anyone reference the "Sex without pain is like food without taste." quote? Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough but I cannot find an original writing of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.120.188.41 ( talk • contribs) 4 January 2007.
I think it's in Justine; one of the monks who has imprisoned her in the monastery has a long speech justifying his sexual practices to her. I'm not completely sure though.
I've deleted the citation needed tag for the etymology of the term sadism. It's in the Shorter Oxford Dictionary (1973) which adds that word 'sadism' was first used in 1888 and means 'a form of sexual perversion marked by a love of cruelty'. Natalie West 11:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
None of the external links work apart from the internet movie base, but I am reluctant to delete them until someone else has checked. Natalie West 11:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC) Realised that anon vandal changed thm all, so I've restored them. Natalie West 12:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
So many of these questions have been resolved, and were from years ago....in recent events, little has been questioned at all. Just how much does a page have to be clarified and professionalized to remove the tags all over it?? Lesomers 03:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)lesomers September 25, 2007
I think this section needs expanding greatly. It also needs to be categorized more than just between fiction and non-fiction. I've prepared a more comprehensive list of Sade's own work (as opposed to works about him). I based it on the bibliography found in the Grove Press edition of 120 Days of Sodom and Other Writings as well as Simone de Beauvoir's essay. So it is not complete and considering I don't understand French I may have made some mistakes in listing the works down in their proper categories. Feel free to edit them and rearrange them accordingly. Preferably chronologically. If anyone knows the dates the works were published, it would be a big help.
- Red marquis 13:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Red marquis 12:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
In Defence of Existensialism. The M. de Sade in his "Dialoque between a Prist and a Dying Man" touches om aspects of The Philosophy of Existentialism but by no means was the Marquis an Extentialist. That philosphy had historic origins and is a part of the modern world circa WWI. The absurdity of life became even more absurd with wars of worldwide scope and colonial wars and neo-colonial and now wars for no simple reasons except to appease the military-industrial establishment and protect economic interests (oil) and strategic land (Israel). Existentialism remains a relevant and provocative approach to life whereas the Marquis offerred more examples of the abuse of power. — 200.86.154.106 ( talk) 13:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Do you think we ought to change the infobox to a philosopher`s infobox considering the influence de Sade had on many philosopher's and the content of his works? Exiledone ( talk) 19:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I know very little about the Marquis de Sade indeed. I was, however, a little puzzled to find that under the main heading of non-fiction works were listed his novels and novellas, including Justine, Juliette, and the 120 Days of Sodom. Are these non-fiction works, or has somebody created the list with "Non-fiction" erroneously placed as a major heading, as if these works form a sub-section within the larger category of non-fiction?-- Oxonian2006 ( talk) 19:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
it didnt sound for me to list all the places where he was imprisoned in the lead. instead i would expect to see names of some very famous novels by him. -- ArazZeynili ( talk) 16:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
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Excuse me, but this sentence:"In 1790, he was elected to the National Convention, where he represented the far left. He was a member of the Piques section, notorious for its radical views." is completely false. Sade was never a deputy at the Convention, at a certain point he was chosen from his club as a delegate to read a petition in front of the Convention, and I suppose a misunderstanding of the word "delegate" is at the origin of the ridiculous assumption that he was a member of parliament. By the way, the Club des Piques was no radical circle. During Terror, Sade had quite moderate, "humanistic" views, he was against death penalty etc.
The following have been removed from the bloated external links section. Feel free to integrate the reliable sources among them into the article as inline citations:
Skomorokh 05:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
The pronunciation of "sadism" is so variable that I consider it overly judgmental to recommend one over the other. Unfree ( talk) 17:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I think that a section on his political views would be in order. Apparently, he was an early predecessor to socialists. Some have even called him an anarchist communist. Zazaban ( talk) 07:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
You seem to have placed De Sade in the categories French Atheists and Atheism Activists, but I don't see any source in the article stating his religion (or, technically, lack thereof). Simply being critical or religion does not mean he was an atheist. he could easily have been a Deist or Maltheist judging only fromt he article; so if you have sources for his religious positions, please cite them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.89.254.150 ( talk) 21:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
How verifyable is this narrative? I'm very sceptical, especially of the statement "Marquis de Sade's works went unpublished and unread in France until the 1960s", regarding the esteem his work was in by avant-garde writers from the likes of Baudillare and Lautremont into the 20th century, eg. Bataille, Genet; they must have had access to his work. Ross.Brighton ( talk) 08:24, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Interesting that Sade's fascination for, and influence on philosophers and writers is, rightly, detailed in the article, but that on some others who were a bit more literal in their admiration, is not. Perhaps that's because the article is a little squeamish in describing what exactly Sade actually depicts in, for instance, 120 Days of Sodom. Straw Cat ( talk) 16:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
I see the year of his death, but nothing about it. A few sourced quotes:
"Marquis de Sade died at the age of 74 on December 2, 1814, at 10 o'clock in the evening, easily and quietly as a result of a long illness which had nevertheless not impaired his vigor."
Ivan Bloch, "Marquis de Sade: His Life and Works"
"died at 10 pm on December 2, 1814, of a 'pulmonary obstruction' following a 'prostrating and gangrenous fever.'" Foreword, The Complete Marquis de Sade, Volume 1 By Marquis de Sade, Paul J. Gillette, John S. Yankowski
"Grossly overweight, the Marquis de Sodomy died on December 2, 1814. De Sade's final request was to be buried in an unmarked grave so that 'all traces of my tomb may disappear from the face of the earth, just as I hope all traces of my memory will be erased from the memories of men.'" The concise guide to sounding smart at parties by David Matalon & Chris Woolsey
"His will, made at Charenton on 30 January 1806, expressly forbade a Christian burial and ended with these words: 'Once the grave has been filled, it shall be sown over with acorns so that all traces of my tomb may disappear from the face of the earth, just as I hope all traces of my memory will be erased from the memories of men, with the exception of those few who kindly continued to love me until the last moments, and of whom I take a pleasant memory to the grave.' Introduction, Plays of the Marquis de Sade, translated by John Charles Franceschina and Ben Ohmart Bustter ( talk) 17:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
From the article: "The namesake of the psychological and subcultural term sadism, his name is used variously to evoke sexual violence, licentiousness and freedom of speech." Perhaps, but how about the libidinous infliction of pain, cruelty, and torture? As it stands, the statement is inadequate. Unfree ( talk) 18:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
The Moors murders are nothing to do with De Sade, please stop posting that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.219.141 ( talk) 00:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
"please would the anonymous vandalizing of this article be stopped?"-no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.208.177 ( talk) 23:44, 17 March 2012 (UTC) The "Moors murders" are not relevant to the Marquis De Sade's life or works; his influence in culture goes far beyond two idiotic murderers who shouldn't be even worth mentioning. Why does Ian Brady get a mention on this page, yet the fact that "Sadism" is derived from de Sade's name doesn't? What kind of moron wrote this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.210.40 ( talk) 06:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
"De Sade was forced to disavow his son's desertion in order to save his neck."
Are figures of speech allowed in when they are literally true then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.88.138 ( talk) 13:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
The following sentence could benefit from a bit of explanation:
"Later that year his name was entered - whether by error or willful malice - on the list of émigrés of the Bouches-du-Rhône department."
That is, What did his entry on the list imply about him, and to whom, and what consequences might have been expected? Unfree ( talk) 18:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
In the Title and heirs section, there is a discussion of the inheritance of the titles "marquis" and "count" in his family, and a dubious – discuss tag. I wonder (I have no evidence) if the family held the title of marquis in the nobility of France, and the title of count in the peerage of France? These were separate institutions, the peerage was the more prestigious, and there were certainly men who held French titles of nobility but were not peers of France. Maproom ( talk) 16:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't think the dubious tag is warranted- but a reference is needed.
The desire is to try and label the past with our modern understanding, which is of titles being merely honorific status symbols bestowed by a monarch, but this is far far from true. The article does briefly touch on the different types of nobility, and the different system of precedence and rank, that existed in France: there are some more modern formal peerages (in the style known to Britain) but the majority of titles in France were a less formal kind: usually ancient or traditional titles of nobility which were held from ancient times or that were tied to land; but also frequently titles were simply self-assumed by noble families. These titles were never "bestowed" from a King. This was especially common in France where, in the Medieval period, the Kings were generally weak and lacked both power and land: the powerful nobility held most power and wealth; with a system of vassalage holding France loosely together. Titles were assumed from the land they controlled: a count controlling a county and so forth; but self-assumed titles were common even then for powerful and wealthy families.
As for the alternation between the titles of Marquess and Count: it was a very common way to distinguish between father and son, and is seen in a few different French families. It does seem to be a male only thing though, as most references to their wives use only "Comtesse". In the British system son's are often given one of the father's lesser titles: The Duke of Devonshire's son is known as the Marquess of Hartington, for example. The French did not use courtesy titles- but the alternation of title names is their equivalent way of differentiating.
I have only ever seen the Sade family's titles refereed to as the more traditional type. I have read things where historians have alleged the Sade family may be among those who assumed titles more recently than others (Some families trace back to before the Carolingian age, so what those historians class as early and late is wide open). There doesn't appear to be any easily accessible reliable online lists of peerages either to cross check, which is a shame.
But yes; the information that is there seems to be sound - it just needs reliably referencing. The majority of those used for the article are offline sources; so I shall look into finding a suitable online one tomorrow.
-- Rushton2010 ( talk) 02:03, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Was he raised in the Catholic faith is that why he was so anti-Catholic? ( 120.149.122.12 ( talk) 11:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC))
'Sade professed that the ultimate goal of an author should be to deliver an accurate portrayal of man,' is found in the literary criticism section but with no citation. It would be very useful for me to know either, or both, of the answers to the following questions. In what text does de Sade express this sentiment? What is the (or an) exact quotation? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.175.67.115 ( talk) 17:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
The article states:
Is there any evidence that de Sade and the noblesse d'épée more generally were of Frankish descent, or was this claim some kind of propaganda put out by the French aristocracy itself? A reliable source would be useful. Norvo ( talk) 00:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The apparent discrepancy in title between father and son shown by this letter may be explained as in this era a title born by the father conferred a title to the eldest or right heir during the life of the father to the next lower order of precedence. For example, in England during the 17th C it was customary for a father who was a baron for his eldest son to bear the title baronet.
This convention had at its basis the sovereign whose offspring were by right of birth conferred the title prince or princess. This practice fell out of favor as it caused great consternation and confusion in determining the order of precedence among the first sons who would hold a temporary title of the same rank as those who held the same title by inheritance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.15.72 ( talk) 06:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
As has been mentioned before (see Archive 1), it is incorrect in French to refer to someone with a "de" in their name by the "de". He is referred to in French universally as Sade, not "De Sade" or "de Sade". I will go through the article now to correct this. The exception to the rule, by the way, is for names beginning with "Du". The reason for this is that "Du" is actually what you get when "de" combines with "Le" (i.e., "of the" masculine form), hence the name "Du Bartas", but "de La Fonataine" (where the name as spoken on its own is simply La Fontaine, not "De La Fontaine"). ZarhanFastfire ( talk) 01:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Another comment about the name -- one of the header lines says "the family name is de Sade, not Sade" but throughout the article when the man is referred to by his surname it is simply "Sade". I'm inclined, like the previous poster, to believe that just "Sade" is correct, so what's up with the header line? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.34.56 ( talk) 03:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Sade's height
In the document, Citoyen Sade au Comité de sureté générale it is noted that Sade was, at the age of 53, "Taille de cinq pieds deux pouces, cheveux sourcils blonds gris, front haut, et découvert, yeux bleu clair, nez moyen, bouche petite, menton rond, visage ovale et plein" (English: height of five feet and two inches, blond hair and gray eyebrows, high forehead, going bald, light blue eyes, medium nose, small mouth, round chin, full, oval face).
Confusion about his height results from the difference between the French Ancient Régime pied (32.484 cm) and pouce (2.707 cm) and the British foot (30.48 cm) and inch (2.54 cm). Therefore he was 1.6783 m tall.
Corpulence
Mme de Sade à Gaufridy : « Il [le marquis] se porte bien, mais il grossit beaucoup. » 2 avril 1790. [«The marquis is well, but he got fat.»] — M. de Sade à Gaufridy : «J'y ai acquis [à la Bastille], faute d'exercice, une corpulence si énorme qu'à peine puis-je me remuer... [«At the Bastille, for lack of exercise, I got so huge I can hardly move...»] (Vd. Vie du marquis de Sade by Gilbert Lély) — Ana Bruta ( talk) 11:05, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that he was a delegate to the National Convention? The French wiki and Schaeffers biography both state that he was heavily involved in Parisian local politics during this time and that he made a speech to the Convention in 1793. However was he actually a member like Robespierre, Danton et al? Also taking into account comments previously made on the talk page. CivisHibernius ( talk) 12:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
(Please note that nobody has a problem with the use of "Atheist" in the article text. This only concerns infoboxes.)
There are many reasons for saying "Religion = None" rather than "Religion = None (atheist)" in Wikipedia infoboxes. They include:
It goes against our manual of style for infoboxes.
There is no consensus for it.
It attempts to shoehorn too much information into a one-word infobox entry
It is highly objectionable to many atheists.
It violates the principle of least astonishment.
In my opinion, "Religion = None" remains the best choice for representing the data accurately and without bias. I also have no objection to removing the religion entry entirely. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 09:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Now this has been to WP:ANI, and as I expected, the discussion there made it clear that my changing "Religion: None (atheist)" to "Religion: none" is supported by global consensus, and that the closing summary at Template talk:Infobox person#Religion means what?, specificly " 'Atheist' should not appear" and "The preferred phrase would be 'Religion: None' ", does indeed apply to my edits.
Quotes from the ANI discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Guy Macon posting large identical text blocks in growing number of venues:
So once again, I am editing this page to reflect that clear consensus and reverting attempts to ignore or reinterpret consensus. I strongly urge taking this to WP:ANI instead of edit warring to push a version that is clearly against consensus. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 22:42, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
talk to me! 04:31, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 22:38, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
The usage and primary topic of Sade is under discussion, see talk:Sade Adu -- 65.94.43.89 ( talk) 03:55, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
I see someone or some people have not bothered reading the talk page and once again the entire article reads incorrectly "de Sade" this, "de Sade" that. See my comment above for the explanation why "Sade" is the only surname to be used unless referring to him by his marquis title (which in French is not capitalized). ZarhanFastfire ( talk) 06:47, 16 February 2017 (UTC) The confusion appears to have arisen from an unsourced note at the beginning of the article stating:
This is a Romance language name. The family name is "de Sade", not "Sade".
This is true as far as it goes, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with how you refer to such names conventionally in French, which is more important than that assertion is capable of encompassing or its author understood. Look at all the French sources cited which refer simply to Sade. I even had to correct one of them after double checking on Google that yes indeed the article appears with Sade, not de Sade, which someone inserted into the title reference. Once again: La Fontaine's Fables. Not "De La Fontaine's Fables." Just look it up. ZarhanFastfire ( talk) 07:09, 16 February 2017 (UTC) Here is a typical sentence from the French version of the article (French Wikipedia):
En 1769, Sade est en Provence. Bals et comédies se succèdent à Lacoste.
I'm removing the note from the article. It serves no purpose other than to create confusion and encourage people to refer to Sade incorrectly as 'de Sade' here and elsewhere. ZarhanFastfire ( talk) 07:15, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
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“he was tutored by Abbé Jacques-François Amblet, a priest”
When is an Abbé not a priest ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:C100:D1DA:3F8B:4B15 ( talk) 06:15, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
When it’s a jar! StrexcorpEmployee ( talk) 02:07, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
A graphic of anal sex accompanies the description of the term when it is referenced in the article on the Marquis de Sade. Is it not sufficient to have a written description? I am aware that this picture could be accessed by a child. The visual is arguably a pornographic image and an unnecessary addition to the description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.27.64.89 ( talk) 14:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
The "Influenced" section in the infobox is kind of a mess. A huge list of names, each tagged CN. What value does it add to include so many unsourced claims? Schazjmd (talk) 01:51, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Good point. I’m for scrapping all those names entirely and adding each influence one by one with sourcing. PNople ( talk) 12:51, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
G. T. Roche appears to be a dubious academic source as the user here states he makes connections of De Sade with: Hitler, Nazism, The Holocaust, Anti-Semitism, Social Darwinism, etc.. I’ve deleted such connections on this page as they can be misleading on wikipedia to someone trying to understand De Sade’s work. There is no indication that De Sade intended to bring about anything remotely similar to any of these events. De Sade was closely allied with anarchism, this is the exact opposite of fascism. I’ve left general reference to G. T. Roche on the page, but if others find his writings to be dubious, please delete it. PNople ( talk) 04:51, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
You haven’t responded to all my concerns here. I don’t understand why you’re bringing up the unverified allegations of De Sade’s sex crimes. We’re talking about Roche in this subject. Let’s see others’ input on this (Everyone please see Mcc1789’s addition on April 23, 2021 at 4:18pm about Roche to see the issues I think are important). PNople ( talk) 19:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
The unverified claims of sexual abuse are a different subject. Not for this thread.
I’m fine with the second sentence and resource. I see the paper is available for people to read online, which is preferable. However, the first cited source “Unblinking Gaze”, is not available to read. Can you link that source to a version that can be read in it’s entirety? If not, I think we should take it out. It’s important that everyone can access a full paper, especially if it contains controversial content. PNople ( talk) 20:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
How does everyone feel about about this? (See history of edits). To me, Mcc1789 seems to be wanting to tarnish De Sade’s image with unverified claims. PNople ( talk) 05:04, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
You haven’t addressed your previous edits where you tried to include unverified allegations of sex crimes by De Sade. I think it’s important the community knows those type of additions came from you. I’m not saying you shouldn’t contribute other helpful info about De Sade. The issue to me is that your recent edits seem to be aimed at tarnishing De Sade’s image with unverified claims. PNople ( talk) 19:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
How do you not know about your own previous edits? You aren’t really responding to my concerns here. I feel you should try to be better about your sourcing, make it more specific so people can verify what you add to this page. For each particular premise, have a particular page number. And try to keep objectionable claims off the page. PNople ( talk) 20:07, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I think controversial claims are ok as long as you have adequate sourcing for the statements you put on here. So it’s important to be particular in your wording and cite a particular page number for each premise and statement. I feel what you had earlier was way overbroad in connecting De Sade to fascism. You don’t want to be misleading to someone who wants to learn about De Sade. PNople ( talk) 22:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
He was repeatedly accused and more than once convicted of sexual assault or abuse against others. So yes, there is evidence of this. Mcc1789 ( talk) 17:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
The only link you listed that works is the Britannica one. We shouldn’t use Britannica as a resource here. It’s inadequate in that it doesn’t cite the particular page numbers in each resource where each set of events are alleged. Therefore we cannot investigate the empirical veracity of these claims.
As far as I know, De Sade never sexually abused anyone. All sex he engaged in was consensual. I’ve cited particular page numbers for these empirical facts. No one has cited particular page numbers to refute these facts. Please revert the changes so that the page does not make any mention of sexual abuse unless you have particular page numbers so we can investigate the veracity of that claim. PNople ( talk) 03:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
http://www.artandpopularculture.com/Rose_Keller While his defenders dispute her version, the case is well-known enough it certainly deserves to be mentioned.
Gorer is one who dismisses her claims, but he also goes on here to outline the other great accusation against him, that he slipped Spanish Fly to prostitutes and made them very ill.
All of these cases should be addressed in the article, even if his defenders claims deserve a place there as well. 2600:1700:8D40:9B60:A577:B72F:B8C:B1A3 ( talk) 04:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Your factual assertions here aren’t verified. That first source is not a good source at all to use. And the allegations of him whipping a woman are already addressed in the article.
Where does that book say he intentionally slipped prostitutes Spanish Fly to make them ill? I don’t see it in the link you provided. You need to have particular page numbers and quotes for verification purposes. PNople ( talk) 05:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
I cannot parse this sentence: "Additionally, he criticizes the idea Sade demonstrated morality cannot be based on reason.[30]"
Could someone please clarify the meaning? It would be helpful to have the precise page number and quote.
To that end I managed to download the cited paper from https://www.academia.edu/38154333 (with some difficulty: they two times reported I was making a suspicious access), and found 47 mentions of "morality" and 31 of "reason":
and the third mention of "reason"
I guess this is the closest (Sade claims reason alone cannot derive morality), but what is the article's sentence trying to say?
- 84user ( talk) 11:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
The author helpfully replied to my request pointing to the relevant supporting quote on page 13 of the academia extract (page 52 in the journal). I added two "that"s to hopefully clarify the rather vague article sentence, but it's still not fully clear to me: "Additionally, he criticizes the idea Sade showed morality cannot have a rational basis, and acting morally is no more justified than being immoral."
- 84user ( talk) 14:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I’ve warned this user about their removal of information on this page which was adequately cited. Their reasoning was conclusory and had no citations.
Everyone please keep an eye out on this page and revert these improper edits. It helps to warn the users too and report them if they continue to mess with the page. It’s usually anonymous users with their IP addresses that have done this on this page. PNople ( talk) 21:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
‘The Rebel’ by Albert Camus contains multiple references and quotes to and by DeSade. Camus should be added to the influenced list. 2600:4040:B8C8:B900:897:1091:E41D:7605 ( talk) 13:10, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The overall tone of this page seems to be less than professional. It's hard to say whether it's been written by a non-native English speaker, or by a young peron who lacks the ability to express her/himself well, but given the topic at hand, I think an effort should be made to "clean up" any poor grammar or unclear sentence structure. Glad to do so myself, but not really sure of the etiquette here.
I would like to move this page to "Marquis de Sade", which seems to be the more common way to refer to him. Any objections? AxelBoldt 00:24 Dec 7, 2002 (UTC)
I'm a bit amazed that so much space is given to a few rumors about his life, and so little said about his work. I don't think that De Sade is more famous for some crime -if he ever committed any, as there is no solid allegation of it- than for his books...
If some people are interested in his work, it is not the purpose of a serious encyclopedia to prevent them of reading it. You may warn them of the explicit sexual descriptions, not invent the content of books you obviously haven't read... Let people make their own judgement!
Ju.
Sounds worthy of an NPOV flag to me -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Not for me, so I have removed it. The introductory paragraph clearly and IMHO correctly states what de Sade is famous for: his books. Then it goes on to describe his life and work, with roughly 40% of the article devoted to his work. If you find the description of his life or work inaccurate, please go ahead and improve them. In particular, I can't find any invented content of his books in the article, but if you do, just correct it and explain it here. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The factual accuracy of the Marquis de Sade article is disputed. I seriously doubt the story about the Marquis de Sade related to the storming of the Bastille. A different variant of it (which I also doubt) is in the article Bastille. I strongly believe he had been transferred to Charenton well before the storming of the Bastille, but I don't have a source to quote, just a reasonable knowledge of his life. It would be good if someone would sort this out. -- Jmabel 20:38, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica writes:
It is my understanding that at the day of the storming of the Bastille, de Sade was not there anymore; he had already been transferred. If you know of a contradicting source, then please add it to the article; I don't think that your personal doubts are sufficient for a "factual accuracy is disputed" disclaimer. AxelBoldt 16:42, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The "a few days before" seems much likelier than the implication in the text that this was an immediately precipitating incident. And the article in Bastille clearly implies that he was one of the prisoners on July 14, which Britannica explicitly contradicts. I'm happy to clear this up by going more clearly with Britannica's version of events. Axel, is this OK with you, too? -- Jmabel 23:25, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Certainly. There are various versions of the events floating around on the internet, but from reading a biography of de Sade (forgot the title) and from the Encyclopedia Britannica, I think the following is the most likely course of events: de Sade shouts a few days before the storming of the Bastille, then he is moved to Charenton, then the Bastille is stormed. This link confirms this history: http://www.monsieurlesix.be/history/briefaccount6.html and it gives July 2nd as the date, which seems plausible. I'll edit our article accordingly and I'll do the same over at Bastille. AxelBoldt 16:56, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
From Sade, à biography by Jean-Paul Brighelli & from Vie du marquis de sade by Gilbert Lely (in french) :
fr:Utilisateur:Miniwark 15:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
http://73.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SA/SADE_DONATIEN_ALPHONSE_FRANCOIS_COUNT.htm
SADE, DONATIEN ALPHONSE FRANC.OIS, COUNT [usually called the MARQUIS DE SADE] (1740-1814), French licentious writer, was born in Paris on the 2nd of June 1740. He entered the light-horse at fourteen and saw considerable military service before returning to Paris in 1766. Here his vicious practices became notorious, and in 1772 he was condemned to death at Aix for an unnatural offence, and for poisoning. He fled to Italy, but in 1777 he was arrested in Paris, removed to Aix for trial, and there found guilty. In 1778 he escaped from prison, but was soon re-arrested and finally committed to the Bastille. Here he began to write plays and obscene novels. In 1789 h was removed to the Charenton Lunatic Asylum, but was discharged in 1790, only to be recommitted as incurable in 1803. He died there on the 2nd of December 1814. Among his works, all of the type indicated, were Justine (1791), Juliette (1792), Philosophic dans le boudoir (1793) and Les Crimes de I'amour (1800). The word Sadism, meaning a form of sexual perversion, is derived from his name.
An anon recently changed the name at the beginning of the article, changing "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" to "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Comte De Sade". (Well, actually, they also messed up the capitalization, but I fixed that.) I don't know enough about French noble titles to know if this is an improvement or is plain wrong, but I find it surprising. Why would a marquis be "Comte de Sade"? I would guess that he should either be named as "Donatien-Alphonse-François De Sade" or "Donatien-Alphonse-François, Marquis De Sade".
I've never seen this capitalization practice anywhere (on this or any other similar French name) and none of the first 40 Google hits fail to use capitals (they vary on the hyphens). Can someone with a knowledge of French and a willingness to use a user-name rather than an IP address please weigh in? I'm really hesitant to take the word of someone who could so easily be trolling. -- Jmabel 00:16, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
born June 2, 1740, Paris, France died Dec. 2, 1814, Charenton, near Paris byname of "Donatien-alphonse-françois, Comte De Sade". If I find out how to use a user-name I'll gladly use it instead of my IP.
D. A. F. de Sade took the title "Marquis" upon his father's death because his grandfather had called himself "Marquis" and he'd gotten it into his head that the title should alternate between "Comte" and "Marquis" perhaps to avoid confusion as to who was whom. BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Recently categorized under "Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual people". Besides the fact that this category as such makes me a little nervous, I'm not at all sure it is appropriate. I realize de Sade did sadistic (duh!) things to males, but I'm unaware of him having sex with them. As far as I know, in sexuality as such he was pretty hetero. The article doesn't contain anything particularly to the contrary. Is there some basis for the claim? -- Jmabel 20:24, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
There's no evidence whatsoever that he tortured men. BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the Marquis de Sade was definitely bisexual by any definition. He liked to be sodomized by his valet. Check Neil Schaeffer's biography. BrianGCrawfordMA 02:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
It is also known Sade enjoyed to insert various objects up his rectum. It was actually one of his main occupations while in prison. Nicolasgasne 19:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Sade himself has been cited as saying that he had imagined whatever was imaginable, but had accomplished far less in reality. In many instances de Sade is seen as a philosopher and a moralist, taking and impartial view to the "worst" of human desires. Just because he doesn't immediately denounce the scenes he depicts doesn't mean he endorces them. Unfortunately, beyond his literary works, much of what is said of him is based on rumour and speculation. Personally, I'd feel more comfortable with tagging him as "bi-curious" if such labels must be applied, since he was intrigued by all things sexual, but there is no definitive claim as to his true sexuality. 193.1.172.104 14:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)Suzie
He was bi. The LGBT writers from France category was already present; I just added the bisexual writers category. Werdnawerdna ( talk) 02:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
The following two edits were made recently, anonymously and without citation. I'm not fully up on the use of French titles, so someone else should either confirm of revert.
Jmabel | Talk 18:58, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
for the name Comte de Sade: de is ALWAYS lower case. You would translate it in English by "of". When someone received a title by the king and a land, he usually received the title and the land name. For example: John Smith gets the title of Count for Washington. His new name would be "Count John Smith of Washington" or "John Smith, Count of Washington"... most people dropped their last name, so they would call themselves : "Count John of Washington". But the "de" is always lower case. Also, when you refer to them by their last name, you never mention the "de" (of), unless their last name starts with a vowel... so in our example, you would say something like: "John Smith of Washington is coming for dinner tonight with his family" OR "The "Washington" are coming over tonight". You wouldn't say "The "de Washington" are coming over tonight".
About Comte or Marquis: I have checked the little book "Noblesse 2001" from Nicolas Guerre which lists all current true nobles in France. That family is not named in it... which means: either it is a extinct family, either they couldn't prove their noblety. I have also checked the "Bottin Mondain 2002" (sorry, don't have the latest ones): There are 3 families listed in it. ALL three have the title "Count"/Comte... but I can't really tell if they are related in any way to our "Comte/Marquis de Sade". Often, because in France, ONLY the oldest son will wear the "title" after the death of his father (except for the title of "Comte"... the oldest son is "Vicomte" once he his born, and will switch to "Comte" after the death of his father.). (The only exception to the oldest son getting the title is for the title of "Duc/Duchesse", but ONLY Royal family children are allowed to wear that title, and all children will wear it...
But for Comte/Marquis de Sade: What happens often in families, is that the brothers are a bit "jealous" of the title wore by the oldest son... so they take a "honorary title" for themselves. And often, they'll choose something different. That may have been the case here. Not sure... Someone would need to research that. But the rule is : A dog doesn't make a cat... A Comte doesn't make a Marquis as his son... so if you have various titles in the same family, most likely these are "honorary" titles to make the other kids feel better...
Hope this helps a bit. (I'm not an expert, but my family (on my mother's side) is from higher noblety in France, so I've got a little knowledge about it).
A recent uncommented anon change modified [[Charenton-le-Pont|Charenton]] to Charenton-Saint-Maurice (now Saint-Maurice, Val-de-Marne). I have no idea which is accurate, but certainly whichever it is it should be linked. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:13, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
The anon edit seems correct. From [2], [3], [4] and [5] the following story emerges: Charenton-le-Pont and Charenton-Saint-Maurice are neighboring parishes; the latter, which changed its name to "Saint Maurice" in 1842, has the asylum. The asylum is nowadays often simply called "Charenton". I'll edit the Charenton and Charenton-le-Pont entries accordingly. AxelBoldt 21:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I notice theres a list of movies about marquis de sade, but not a list of his books, I recently picked up a copy of "the mystifieed magistrate and other tales" by marquess de sade. However, many of these stories are given no refference. Perhaps they should be added for possible future articles at least. Jaynus _Izanagi 19:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
"…Sade's most seminal contribution to art…" -- Jmabel | Talk 00:36, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
Kekeke 75.24.213.105 06:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The quote below was tacked on at the end of the "Literary works" section. The original author should, by all means, try to revise this. I suggest incorporating it into the preceding passage, rather than by presenting a veiled personal opinion after the fact.
What, for instance, is "heathenistic promulgations"? Why may we "assume much of what Sade wrote to be lived vicariously..."? How, furthermore, is any of this clarified by the empty closing pronouncement "nothing can defeat nature but god is worthy of overthrowing"? This is a lot of cobbled-together nonsense. Let's have less of the non sequitur, and more argument and scholarly citation. Sade offers lots of opportunity for depth, but here I see only sophomoric moralism and big words.
Strunk and White, or Plain Words, by Sir Ernest Gowers, are good correctives for flowery language.
Vorpal Suds 1 July 2005 10:45 (UTC)
Just curious... when Wikipedia has such complete knowledge and links thereof for most authors, why has it only got a few incomplete links to works of the Marquis de Sade... and not in English? Anyone know where and/or how we could get links to de Sade in English? -- WAS 02:06, 9 August 2005 (UTC).
Ah... well, I guess that's too bad. But aren't there bound to be, when you think about it (considering the, uh, popular nature of de Sade's works), a few (hundred) sites which don't really care about copyright violations? I mean, just showing a link isn't actually incriminating for whoever put it there, now is it?... of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate (as usual)... not like anyone might actually do anything like what I'm am very thinly hinting at here... WAS 05:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
The only "official" English translation of nearly all of Sade's works (and his entire corpus has never been translated into English according to prominent Sadean scholar, John Phillips), is held by New York's Grove/Atlantic, Incorporated, the parent publisher of Grove Press, which was the first (and subsequently only) publisher to print Sade's so-called "libertine novels" (Juliette, Justine, The 120 Days of Sodom, and Philosophy in the Bedroom) in English, beginning in the 1960s. However, other English publishers, such as Penguin, have recently undertaken selective English translations, notably of Philosophy in the Bedroom (by them titled Philosophy in the Boudoir), among others. The Grove editions remain the academically-accepted standard for all English Sadean studies, and since the 1960s and apparently for the time being, are the only if not definitive English-language versions. Oxford is one of the sole printers of Sade's Crimes of Love, which it recently re-released in a handsome new edition. The rights to the Oxford and Grove collections are held jointly by the Sade family and their respective translators (i.e., Austryn Wainhouse and Richard Seavers) of each publishing house.
The Sade family managed to convince French courts to reopen the dormant (and basically non-existant, since copyright was not so common place if at all legally accepted yet in 18th Century France, though England had copyright at the time) Sade copyrights in the 1960s through 1980s, and though peculiar for a dead author of so many centuries ago to remain copyrighted, his works, regardless of original French or English, are indeed protected, which, once reinstated, actually means all 'outdated' translations were once again subject to copyright, meaning anything by Sade online is technically still active.
He has also entered the "official" French canon of literature, the Pleiade, which, a joint government cultural venture, renews and watches over the existing rights of its selected authors. Only about 25% of Sade's actual writings have survived into the present; one of his sons vehemently destroyed every manuscript he could find upon his father's death at Charenton, while Comte Xavier de Sade, the recent patriarch of the family, discovered additional manuscripts at a family property (an old trunk in a stone barn) in Provence in 1948 when he was then 26. It was he who successfully copyrighted Sade's works and all his and the family names' usages by the 1980s, as well as his own children and grandchildren that today monitor and approve all uses, such as translations. There are only a few articles in English talking about the modern Sade family, most articles are from the French media; I can link some online examples if needed. I am also in communication with the Sade family. Interestingly, as an example of the Sadean copyright debate, the notable play, "Marat/Sade", can never be performed with that title in France because of an injunction brought forward by the Sade family when it debuted in the 1960s; they never approved of the use of their ancestor's name in that manner, and dislike how he had been exploited to publicize the play, a play which only very indirectly involves Sade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.173.162 ( talk) 19:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I've heard more than once that the Marquis mother was a nun.
any truth to it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.241.245.49 ( talk • contribs) 23 Sept 2005.
His mother moved into a convent while her husband was still alive, but she did not take holy orders. BrianGCrawfordMA 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Recent addition: "including poisoning partygoers with belladonna, which he had heard was an aphrodisiac". Has someone got a citation for this? For one thing, I doubt he'd just "heard" it was an aphrodisiac, the belief was widespread at the time. In small enough doses, it's supposed to be an "interesting" drug, but, of course, the problem is that it's one of the things where a recreational dose is awfully close to a lethal dose. But if he actually killed someone trying that, it should be easy to document and cite. --- Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Belladona is most definitely not an "interesting" drug unless you think it's interesting to be unable to sweat or salivate. I took it for irritable bowel syndrome, and it has very unpleasant side effects. I've read two biographies of Sade, and nowhere have I found that he poisoned anybody with belladonna. BrianGCrawfordMA 03:00, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
No evidence has ever been brought that Sade ever killed anyone. The only persons that were "poisoned" threw up after eating those candies. Nicolasgasne 19:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
"By now extremely obese, he was even elected to the National Convention, where he represented the far left."
I don't understand why these two parts belong in one sentence (makes it sound he was elected *because* he was obese)...one idea per sentence... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Houarno ( talk • contribs) 9 Dec 2005.
I removed this:
Do we have any reference for the claim that Nietzsche was influenced by (or even read) Sade? AxelBoldt 05:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we do. In Jean Paulhan's essay, he cites the intellectuals who have declared Justine to be "favorite reading--at least during a certain period of their lives--with Lamartine, Baudelaire, and Swinburne, with Barbey d'Aurevilly and Lautreamont, with Nietzsche, Dostoevski, and Kafka (or, on a slightly different plane, with Ewerz, Sacher-Masoch, and Mirbeau) 70.248.223.52 06:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
There is no "Guttering Museum of Natural History in New York. The Skull story is a hoax. I'm going to remove it.
There has been some philology about the study of his skull. I have heard that it had some grump on it, which maybe relates to his character. I thikn we should add more about it Pictureuploader 07:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
This sounds a bit like Phrenology to me. Hard to think how any "grump" on the bone could related to character.
that was mentioned on the History Channel special on him, it supposedly took place but not in New York. I can check it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.78.120.202 ( talk) 03:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The "skull story" depending upon which you are referring to, is rather "true." Sade's skull was removed after his burial, and is preserved indeed, in a museum, though not in New York (it has never been exhibited outside France). In fact, the skull exists today only as a plaster cast, which is missing the jaw. The item is part of the collection of the Musée de l'Homme in Paris, though not on permanent display. The rest of Sade's remains are still buried at Charenton. Confusingly, a horror film was made once based upon a book fictionalizing the skull, giving it a sort of evil power. The part about phrenology, however, is a true story, too. The plaster cast of the skull held in Paris was made solely for a phrenological exam in the nineteenth century. The cast can only be seen as a photograph, as it is in storage and understandably fragile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.173.162 ( talk) 19:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see another section with a list of his books he wrote and the time he wrote them. As for now, I have :
Dialogue entre un Prêtre et un Moribond (known in english as Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man), (1782)
Les infortunes de la vertu (1787)
Les 120 journées de Sodome (known in english as The 120 Days of Sodom), (1789)
Justine (1791)
Juliette (1792)
La Philolosophie dans le Boudoir (known in english as Philosophy in the Bedroom), (1795)
The dates might not be precise but almost. I might also be missing some books
There is also "Historiettes, Contes et Fabliaux" which means something like "Small stories". Here is the list below, I guess he wrote them in prison when he was first arrested, around 1777 to 1789, but that's just my guess.
Attrapez-moi toujours de même
Augustine de villeblanche ou Le stratagème de l'amour
Aventure incompréhensible et attestée par toute une province
Dorci ou La bizarrerie du sort
Il y a place pour deux
L'heureuse feinte
L'instituteur philosophe
L'époux complaisant
L'époux corrigé
L'évêque embourbé
La Marquise de Telême ou Les effets du libertinage
La châtelaine de Longeville ou La femme vengée
La fleur de chataingnier
La prude ou La rencontre imprévue
La saillie gasconne
Le M... puni
Le cocu de lui-même ou Le raccomedement imprévu
Le mari prêtre
Le président mystifié
Le revenant
Le serpent
Le talion
Les filous
Les harangueurs provençaux
Soit fait ainsi qu'il est requis
Émilie de Tourville ou La cruauté fraternelle
Anyone could help ?
-- Zurd 23:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
What is a "protruding crump" and do we have a reference for the fact that one was found on his skull? AxelBoldt 16:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't there any mention of his travelogue through Italy? This was Sade's first book, written c.1773. He commissioned drawings for his book. It's a first hand account of what he saw while travelling. This book is really long (like his novels) although it has never been published in english. Adding it here would be nice because it shows that Sade was actually doing something during his self-exile in Italy. But I am not a Sade scholar and cannot give accurate historical context about this book.
Copied from NC titles talkpage:
...."Also concerning another point that exists for monarchs already 4. If a person is overwhelmingly best known by a cognomen, or by a name that doesn't fit the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name. Examples: Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, Henry the Lion, etc...".
As a note, the work 120 Days of Sodom is censored (as a book) in New Zealand (per the New Zealand Office of Film and Literature Classification and apparently is banned in many other countries. Perhaps this should be mentioned somewhere on the page? (I'm not sure where to find a list of countries that've banned the text). -- Liamf 06:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
"His is a philosophy of extreme freedom (or at least licentiousness), unrestrained by ethics, religion or law, with the pursuit of personal pleasure being the highest principle." I added the note on licentiousness as, arguably, Sade's philosophy does not actually grant freedom but only licence. -- Whitespace 21:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
There has been little or no mention of the Marquis and his long family history based in Mazan, where it is known that his family had a castle and more recently (around the 1700's ) a chateau. There seems to be some confusion about the family residence in La Coste and that of the Chateau de Mazan. Did the Marquis introduce his theatre events in Mazan or Lacoste? Since his family clearly originated in Mazan it is surprising that so little is written of his sojourn there with his uncle the Abbe and his time spent at the Chateau during his exile. Can someone fill in the missing history? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mazanais ( talk • contribs) 8 August 2006.
In "Scandals and Imprisonment", it is stated that Justine and Les Prospérités du Vice are still banned in France. I just bought a copy of the latter yesterday, editted by the French 10-18 ( http://www.10-18.fr/10_18/index.htm) from a used book store in Chinon, the Loire valley. The books are most assuredly not banned.
It has been possible to purchase published works by Sade in the present day since the 1960s. Any apparent ban would have to predate this. There was an attempt to censor a French publisher from publishing the works, on grounds, predictably, of obscenity, but the case was not successful, and led in the 1960s to the first 'modern' printing of Sade, still ongoing. In fact, the French government has officially endorsed the works of Sade as high literature, in fact, the highest, by assigning Sade to the national literary canon: the Pleiade. I think this honour should be evidence enough that France has not had a moral problem with its 'notorious' son for quite some time.
This section is a bit unclear. First off, are Lacoste and La Coste two different places? If they are, I'd feel a bit better if the article clarified it. Another issue is the slightly confusing chronology. For example, at one point it says "His mother-in-law obtained a lettre de cachet...and he was committed to the Bastille. During this imprisonment...", but then it seems to imply that he went on to other places without explaining how or why (or if) he escaped. 24.126.199.129 05:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It is Lacoste, in Vaucluse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.192.39.100 ( talk) 16:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Isn't there a question of authorship for a number of his works? I don't see much mention of that in this article. 24.126.199.129 07:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Why was "he was never convicted of any crime" turned into "he was never technically convicted of any crime"? How is one non-technically convicted? - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
He was officially under the jurisdiction of the king, due to the letter-de-cachet, and as such, was not answerable to crimes in the regular court system. Thus, the convictions he received in the regular court system were, technically, invalid. Although, I don't care for the word "technically". Ideas, anyone?
. . . more hostile than it should be? I'm not saying it shouldn't be hostile to certain acts, but it seems to be hostile even to homosexuality. I think homosexuality is one of the things wikipedia is supposed to be neutral on . . .
Oh, by the way, if you know how to get rid of that annoying box thing on my comment, please do so. Thank you.Done
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
204.95.23.122 (
talk •
contribs)
04:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
This page is extremely hostile, and terribly factually incorrect.
I'd rewrite the entire article if I had the time -- perhaps I'll find the time at some point. This article definitely needs work.
Can anyone reference the "Sex without pain is like food without taste." quote? Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough but I cannot find an original writing of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.120.188.41 ( talk • contribs) 4 January 2007.
I think it's in Justine; one of the monks who has imprisoned her in the monastery has a long speech justifying his sexual practices to her. I'm not completely sure though.
I've deleted the citation needed tag for the etymology of the term sadism. It's in the Shorter Oxford Dictionary (1973) which adds that word 'sadism' was first used in 1888 and means 'a form of sexual perversion marked by a love of cruelty'. Natalie West 11:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
None of the external links work apart from the internet movie base, but I am reluctant to delete them until someone else has checked. Natalie West 11:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC) Realised that anon vandal changed thm all, so I've restored them. Natalie West 12:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
So many of these questions have been resolved, and were from years ago....in recent events, little has been questioned at all. Just how much does a page have to be clarified and professionalized to remove the tags all over it?? Lesomers 03:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)lesomers September 25, 2007
I think this section needs expanding greatly. It also needs to be categorized more than just between fiction and non-fiction. I've prepared a more comprehensive list of Sade's own work (as opposed to works about him). I based it on the bibliography found in the Grove Press edition of 120 Days of Sodom and Other Writings as well as Simone de Beauvoir's essay. So it is not complete and considering I don't understand French I may have made some mistakes in listing the works down in their proper categories. Feel free to edit them and rearrange them accordingly. Preferably chronologically. If anyone knows the dates the works were published, it would be a big help.
- Red marquis 13:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Red marquis 12:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
In Defence of Existensialism. The M. de Sade in his "Dialoque between a Prist and a Dying Man" touches om aspects of The Philosophy of Existentialism but by no means was the Marquis an Extentialist. That philosphy had historic origins and is a part of the modern world circa WWI. The absurdity of life became even more absurd with wars of worldwide scope and colonial wars and neo-colonial and now wars for no simple reasons except to appease the military-industrial establishment and protect economic interests (oil) and strategic land (Israel). Existentialism remains a relevant and provocative approach to life whereas the Marquis offerred more examples of the abuse of power. — 200.86.154.106 ( talk) 13:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Do you think we ought to change the infobox to a philosopher`s infobox considering the influence de Sade had on many philosopher's and the content of his works? Exiledone ( talk) 19:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I know very little about the Marquis de Sade indeed. I was, however, a little puzzled to find that under the main heading of non-fiction works were listed his novels and novellas, including Justine, Juliette, and the 120 Days of Sodom. Are these non-fiction works, or has somebody created the list with "Non-fiction" erroneously placed as a major heading, as if these works form a sub-section within the larger category of non-fiction?-- Oxonian2006 ( talk) 19:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
it didnt sound for me to list all the places where he was imprisoned in the lead. instead i would expect to see names of some very famous novels by him. -- ArazZeynili ( talk) 16:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
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Excuse me, but this sentence:"In 1790, he was elected to the National Convention, where he represented the far left. He was a member of the Piques section, notorious for its radical views." is completely false. Sade was never a deputy at the Convention, at a certain point he was chosen from his club as a delegate to read a petition in front of the Convention, and I suppose a misunderstanding of the word "delegate" is at the origin of the ridiculous assumption that he was a member of parliament. By the way, the Club des Piques was no radical circle. During Terror, Sade had quite moderate, "humanistic" views, he was against death penalty etc.
The following have been removed from the bloated external links section. Feel free to integrate the reliable sources among them into the article as inline citations:
Skomorokh 05:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
The pronunciation of "sadism" is so variable that I consider it overly judgmental to recommend one over the other. Unfree ( talk) 17:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I think that a section on his political views would be in order. Apparently, he was an early predecessor to socialists. Some have even called him an anarchist communist. Zazaban ( talk) 07:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
You seem to have placed De Sade in the categories French Atheists and Atheism Activists, but I don't see any source in the article stating his religion (or, technically, lack thereof). Simply being critical or religion does not mean he was an atheist. he could easily have been a Deist or Maltheist judging only fromt he article; so if you have sources for his religious positions, please cite them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.89.254.150 ( talk) 21:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
How verifyable is this narrative? I'm very sceptical, especially of the statement "Marquis de Sade's works went unpublished and unread in France until the 1960s", regarding the esteem his work was in by avant-garde writers from the likes of Baudillare and Lautremont into the 20th century, eg. Bataille, Genet; they must have had access to his work. Ross.Brighton ( talk) 08:24, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Interesting that Sade's fascination for, and influence on philosophers and writers is, rightly, detailed in the article, but that on some others who were a bit more literal in their admiration, is not. Perhaps that's because the article is a little squeamish in describing what exactly Sade actually depicts in, for instance, 120 Days of Sodom. Straw Cat ( talk) 16:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
I see the year of his death, but nothing about it. A few sourced quotes:
"Marquis de Sade died at the age of 74 on December 2, 1814, at 10 o'clock in the evening, easily and quietly as a result of a long illness which had nevertheless not impaired his vigor."
Ivan Bloch, "Marquis de Sade: His Life and Works"
"died at 10 pm on December 2, 1814, of a 'pulmonary obstruction' following a 'prostrating and gangrenous fever.'" Foreword, The Complete Marquis de Sade, Volume 1 By Marquis de Sade, Paul J. Gillette, John S. Yankowski
"Grossly overweight, the Marquis de Sodomy died on December 2, 1814. De Sade's final request was to be buried in an unmarked grave so that 'all traces of my tomb may disappear from the face of the earth, just as I hope all traces of my memory will be erased from the memories of men.'" The concise guide to sounding smart at parties by David Matalon & Chris Woolsey
"His will, made at Charenton on 30 January 1806, expressly forbade a Christian burial and ended with these words: 'Once the grave has been filled, it shall be sown over with acorns so that all traces of my tomb may disappear from the face of the earth, just as I hope all traces of my memory will be erased from the memories of men, with the exception of those few who kindly continued to love me until the last moments, and of whom I take a pleasant memory to the grave.' Introduction, Plays of the Marquis de Sade, translated by John Charles Franceschina and Ben Ohmart Bustter ( talk) 17:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
From the article: "The namesake of the psychological and subcultural term sadism, his name is used variously to evoke sexual violence, licentiousness and freedom of speech." Perhaps, but how about the libidinous infliction of pain, cruelty, and torture? As it stands, the statement is inadequate. Unfree ( talk) 18:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
The Moors murders are nothing to do with De Sade, please stop posting that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.219.141 ( talk) 00:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
"please would the anonymous vandalizing of this article be stopped?"-no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.208.177 ( talk) 23:44, 17 March 2012 (UTC) The "Moors murders" are not relevant to the Marquis De Sade's life or works; his influence in culture goes far beyond two idiotic murderers who shouldn't be even worth mentioning. Why does Ian Brady get a mention on this page, yet the fact that "Sadism" is derived from de Sade's name doesn't? What kind of moron wrote this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.210.40 ( talk) 06:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
"De Sade was forced to disavow his son's desertion in order to save his neck."
Are figures of speech allowed in when they are literally true then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.88.138 ( talk) 13:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
The following sentence could benefit from a bit of explanation:
"Later that year his name was entered - whether by error or willful malice - on the list of émigrés of the Bouches-du-Rhône department."
That is, What did his entry on the list imply about him, and to whom, and what consequences might have been expected? Unfree ( talk) 18:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
In the Title and heirs section, there is a discussion of the inheritance of the titles "marquis" and "count" in his family, and a dubious – discuss tag. I wonder (I have no evidence) if the family held the title of marquis in the nobility of France, and the title of count in the peerage of France? These were separate institutions, the peerage was the more prestigious, and there were certainly men who held French titles of nobility but were not peers of France. Maproom ( talk) 16:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I don't think the dubious tag is warranted- but a reference is needed.
The desire is to try and label the past with our modern understanding, which is of titles being merely honorific status symbols bestowed by a monarch, but this is far far from true. The article does briefly touch on the different types of nobility, and the different system of precedence and rank, that existed in France: there are some more modern formal peerages (in the style known to Britain) but the majority of titles in France were a less formal kind: usually ancient or traditional titles of nobility which were held from ancient times or that were tied to land; but also frequently titles were simply self-assumed by noble families. These titles were never "bestowed" from a King. This was especially common in France where, in the Medieval period, the Kings were generally weak and lacked both power and land: the powerful nobility held most power and wealth; with a system of vassalage holding France loosely together. Titles were assumed from the land they controlled: a count controlling a county and so forth; but self-assumed titles were common even then for powerful and wealthy families.
As for the alternation between the titles of Marquess and Count: it was a very common way to distinguish between father and son, and is seen in a few different French families. It does seem to be a male only thing though, as most references to their wives use only "Comtesse". In the British system son's are often given one of the father's lesser titles: The Duke of Devonshire's son is known as the Marquess of Hartington, for example. The French did not use courtesy titles- but the alternation of title names is their equivalent way of differentiating.
I have only ever seen the Sade family's titles refereed to as the more traditional type. I have read things where historians have alleged the Sade family may be among those who assumed titles more recently than others (Some families trace back to before the Carolingian age, so what those historians class as early and late is wide open). There doesn't appear to be any easily accessible reliable online lists of peerages either to cross check, which is a shame.
But yes; the information that is there seems to be sound - it just needs reliably referencing. The majority of those used for the article are offline sources; so I shall look into finding a suitable online one tomorrow.
-- Rushton2010 ( talk) 02:03, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Was he raised in the Catholic faith is that why he was so anti-Catholic? ( 120.149.122.12 ( talk) 11:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC))
'Sade professed that the ultimate goal of an author should be to deliver an accurate portrayal of man,' is found in the literary criticism section but with no citation. It would be very useful for me to know either, or both, of the answers to the following questions. In what text does de Sade express this sentiment? What is the (or an) exact quotation? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.175.67.115 ( talk) 17:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
The article states:
Is there any evidence that de Sade and the noblesse d'épée more generally were of Frankish descent, or was this claim some kind of propaganda put out by the French aristocracy itself? A reliable source would be useful. Norvo ( talk) 00:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The apparent discrepancy in title between father and son shown by this letter may be explained as in this era a title born by the father conferred a title to the eldest or right heir during the life of the father to the next lower order of precedence. For example, in England during the 17th C it was customary for a father who was a baron for his eldest son to bear the title baronet.
This convention had at its basis the sovereign whose offspring were by right of birth conferred the title prince or princess. This practice fell out of favor as it caused great consternation and confusion in determining the order of precedence among the first sons who would hold a temporary title of the same rank as those who held the same title by inheritance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.15.72 ( talk) 06:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
As has been mentioned before (see Archive 1), it is incorrect in French to refer to someone with a "de" in their name by the "de". He is referred to in French universally as Sade, not "De Sade" or "de Sade". I will go through the article now to correct this. The exception to the rule, by the way, is for names beginning with "Du". The reason for this is that "Du" is actually what you get when "de" combines with "Le" (i.e., "of the" masculine form), hence the name "Du Bartas", but "de La Fonataine" (where the name as spoken on its own is simply La Fontaine, not "De La Fontaine"). ZarhanFastfire ( talk) 01:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Another comment about the name -- one of the header lines says "the family name is de Sade, not Sade" but throughout the article when the man is referred to by his surname it is simply "Sade". I'm inclined, like the previous poster, to believe that just "Sade" is correct, so what's up with the header line? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.34.56 ( talk) 03:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Sade's height
In the document, Citoyen Sade au Comité de sureté générale it is noted that Sade was, at the age of 53, "Taille de cinq pieds deux pouces, cheveux sourcils blonds gris, front haut, et découvert, yeux bleu clair, nez moyen, bouche petite, menton rond, visage ovale et plein" (English: height of five feet and two inches, blond hair and gray eyebrows, high forehead, going bald, light blue eyes, medium nose, small mouth, round chin, full, oval face).
Confusion about his height results from the difference between the French Ancient Régime pied (32.484 cm) and pouce (2.707 cm) and the British foot (30.48 cm) and inch (2.54 cm). Therefore he was 1.6783 m tall.
Corpulence
Mme de Sade à Gaufridy : « Il [le marquis] se porte bien, mais il grossit beaucoup. » 2 avril 1790. [«The marquis is well, but he got fat.»] — M. de Sade à Gaufridy : «J'y ai acquis [à la Bastille], faute d'exercice, une corpulence si énorme qu'à peine puis-je me remuer... [«At the Bastille, for lack of exercise, I got so huge I can hardly move...»] (Vd. Vie du marquis de Sade by Gilbert Lély) — Ana Bruta ( talk) 11:05, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that he was a delegate to the National Convention? The French wiki and Schaeffers biography both state that he was heavily involved in Parisian local politics during this time and that he made a speech to the Convention in 1793. However was he actually a member like Robespierre, Danton et al? Also taking into account comments previously made on the talk page. CivisHibernius ( talk) 12:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
(Please note that nobody has a problem with the use of "Atheist" in the article text. This only concerns infoboxes.)
There are many reasons for saying "Religion = None" rather than "Religion = None (atheist)" in Wikipedia infoboxes. They include:
It goes against our manual of style for infoboxes.
There is no consensus for it.
It attempts to shoehorn too much information into a one-word infobox entry
It is highly objectionable to many atheists.
It violates the principle of least astonishment.
In my opinion, "Religion = None" remains the best choice for representing the data accurately and without bias. I also have no objection to removing the religion entry entirely. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 09:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Now this has been to WP:ANI, and as I expected, the discussion there made it clear that my changing "Religion: None (atheist)" to "Religion: none" is supported by global consensus, and that the closing summary at Template talk:Infobox person#Religion means what?, specificly " 'Atheist' should not appear" and "The preferred phrase would be 'Religion: None' ", does indeed apply to my edits.
Quotes from the ANI discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Guy Macon posting large identical text blocks in growing number of venues:
So once again, I am editing this page to reflect that clear consensus and reverting attempts to ignore or reinterpret consensus. I strongly urge taking this to WP:ANI instead of edit warring to push a version that is clearly against consensus. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 22:42, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
talk to me! 04:31, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.
The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.
Please help us determine consensus on this issue. -- Guy Macon ( talk) 22:38, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
The usage and primary topic of Sade is under discussion, see talk:Sade Adu -- 65.94.43.89 ( talk) 03:55, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
I see someone or some people have not bothered reading the talk page and once again the entire article reads incorrectly "de Sade" this, "de Sade" that. See my comment above for the explanation why "Sade" is the only surname to be used unless referring to him by his marquis title (which in French is not capitalized). ZarhanFastfire ( talk) 06:47, 16 February 2017 (UTC) The confusion appears to have arisen from an unsourced note at the beginning of the article stating:
This is a Romance language name. The family name is "de Sade", not "Sade".
This is true as far as it goes, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with how you refer to such names conventionally in French, which is more important than that assertion is capable of encompassing or its author understood. Look at all the French sources cited which refer simply to Sade. I even had to correct one of them after double checking on Google that yes indeed the article appears with Sade, not de Sade, which someone inserted into the title reference. Once again: La Fontaine's Fables. Not "De La Fontaine's Fables." Just look it up. ZarhanFastfire ( talk) 07:09, 16 February 2017 (UTC) Here is a typical sentence from the French version of the article (French Wikipedia):
En 1769, Sade est en Provence. Bals et comédies se succèdent à Lacoste.
I'm removing the note from the article. It serves no purpose other than to create confusion and encourage people to refer to Sade incorrectly as 'de Sade' here and elsewhere. ZarhanFastfire ( talk) 07:15, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
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“he was tutored by Abbé Jacques-François Amblet, a priest”
When is an Abbé not a priest ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:C100:D1DA:3F8B:4B15 ( talk) 06:15, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
When it’s a jar! StrexcorpEmployee ( talk) 02:07, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
A graphic of anal sex accompanies the description of the term when it is referenced in the article on the Marquis de Sade. Is it not sufficient to have a written description? I am aware that this picture could be accessed by a child. The visual is arguably a pornographic image and an unnecessary addition to the description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.27.64.89 ( talk) 14:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
The "Influenced" section in the infobox is kind of a mess. A huge list of names, each tagged CN. What value does it add to include so many unsourced claims? Schazjmd (talk) 01:51, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Good point. I’m for scrapping all those names entirely and adding each influence one by one with sourcing. PNople ( talk) 12:51, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
G. T. Roche appears to be a dubious academic source as the user here states he makes connections of De Sade with: Hitler, Nazism, The Holocaust, Anti-Semitism, Social Darwinism, etc.. I’ve deleted such connections on this page as they can be misleading on wikipedia to someone trying to understand De Sade’s work. There is no indication that De Sade intended to bring about anything remotely similar to any of these events. De Sade was closely allied with anarchism, this is the exact opposite of fascism. I’ve left general reference to G. T. Roche on the page, but if others find his writings to be dubious, please delete it. PNople ( talk) 04:51, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
You haven’t responded to all my concerns here. I don’t understand why you’re bringing up the unverified allegations of De Sade’s sex crimes. We’re talking about Roche in this subject. Let’s see others’ input on this (Everyone please see Mcc1789’s addition on April 23, 2021 at 4:18pm about Roche to see the issues I think are important). PNople ( talk) 19:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
The unverified claims of sexual abuse are a different subject. Not for this thread.
I’m fine with the second sentence and resource. I see the paper is available for people to read online, which is preferable. However, the first cited source “Unblinking Gaze”, is not available to read. Can you link that source to a version that can be read in it’s entirety? If not, I think we should take it out. It’s important that everyone can access a full paper, especially if it contains controversial content. PNople ( talk) 20:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
How does everyone feel about about this? (See history of edits). To me, Mcc1789 seems to be wanting to tarnish De Sade’s image with unverified claims. PNople ( talk) 05:04, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
You haven’t addressed your previous edits where you tried to include unverified allegations of sex crimes by De Sade. I think it’s important the community knows those type of additions came from you. I’m not saying you shouldn’t contribute other helpful info about De Sade. The issue to me is that your recent edits seem to be aimed at tarnishing De Sade’s image with unverified claims. PNople ( talk) 19:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
How do you not know about your own previous edits? You aren’t really responding to my concerns here. I feel you should try to be better about your sourcing, make it more specific so people can verify what you add to this page. For each particular premise, have a particular page number. And try to keep objectionable claims off the page. PNople ( talk) 20:07, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I think controversial claims are ok as long as you have adequate sourcing for the statements you put on here. So it’s important to be particular in your wording and cite a particular page number for each premise and statement. I feel what you had earlier was way overbroad in connecting De Sade to fascism. You don’t want to be misleading to someone who wants to learn about De Sade. PNople ( talk) 22:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
He was repeatedly accused and more than once convicted of sexual assault or abuse against others. So yes, there is evidence of this. Mcc1789 ( talk) 17:35, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
The only link you listed that works is the Britannica one. We shouldn’t use Britannica as a resource here. It’s inadequate in that it doesn’t cite the particular page numbers in each resource where each set of events are alleged. Therefore we cannot investigate the empirical veracity of these claims.
As far as I know, De Sade never sexually abused anyone. All sex he engaged in was consensual. I’ve cited particular page numbers for these empirical facts. No one has cited particular page numbers to refute these facts. Please revert the changes so that the page does not make any mention of sexual abuse unless you have particular page numbers so we can investigate the veracity of that claim. PNople ( talk) 03:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
http://www.artandpopularculture.com/Rose_Keller While his defenders dispute her version, the case is well-known enough it certainly deserves to be mentioned.
Gorer is one who dismisses her claims, but he also goes on here to outline the other great accusation against him, that he slipped Spanish Fly to prostitutes and made them very ill.
All of these cases should be addressed in the article, even if his defenders claims deserve a place there as well. 2600:1700:8D40:9B60:A577:B72F:B8C:B1A3 ( talk) 04:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Your factual assertions here aren’t verified. That first source is not a good source at all to use. And the allegations of him whipping a woman are already addressed in the article.
Where does that book say he intentionally slipped prostitutes Spanish Fly to make them ill? I don’t see it in the link you provided. You need to have particular page numbers and quotes for verification purposes. PNople ( talk) 05:06, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
I cannot parse this sentence: "Additionally, he criticizes the idea Sade demonstrated morality cannot be based on reason.[30]"
Could someone please clarify the meaning? It would be helpful to have the precise page number and quote.
To that end I managed to download the cited paper from https://www.academia.edu/38154333 (with some difficulty: they two times reported I was making a suspicious access), and found 47 mentions of "morality" and 31 of "reason":
and the third mention of "reason"
I guess this is the closest (Sade claims reason alone cannot derive morality), but what is the article's sentence trying to say?
- 84user ( talk) 11:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
The author helpfully replied to my request pointing to the relevant supporting quote on page 13 of the academia extract (page 52 in the journal). I added two "that"s to hopefully clarify the rather vague article sentence, but it's still not fully clear to me: "Additionally, he criticizes the idea Sade showed morality cannot have a rational basis, and acting morally is no more justified than being immoral."
- 84user ( talk) 14:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I’ve warned this user about their removal of information on this page which was adequately cited. Their reasoning was conclusory and had no citations.
Everyone please keep an eye out on this page and revert these improper edits. It helps to warn the users too and report them if they continue to mess with the page. It’s usually anonymous users with their IP addresses that have done this on this page. PNople ( talk) 21:16, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
‘The Rebel’ by Albert Camus contains multiple references and quotes to and by DeSade. Camus should be added to the influenced list. 2600:4040:B8C8:B900:897:1091:E41D:7605 ( talk) 13:10, 29 September 2022 (UTC)