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Archive 1 |
Arvanitika is a linguistic term deliberately ill-defined as belonging to those populations that spoke a language, ascended primarily from Latin and secondly Greek. In fact Arvanitika is simply the Albanian language in the Tosk dialect spoken today in the south of Albania. Any Albanian from the south or the north of Albania can easily understand Arvanitika. Arvanites are Albanians now completely assimilated into Greeks mostly forcibly in order to artificially keep together the country called Greece today that in the 1900s was a multinational country with multiple languages spoken and multiple religions followed. Today, some Arvanites naturally consider themselves Greeks and they know nothing about their former Albanian heritage after centuries of living in Greece and after repressive ethnic policies of the Greek State against Arvanites.
First of all, arvantika is a language spoken before albanian. Secondly, an amalgam of languages older than albanian, such as greek and latin and most of all wider than albanian cannot be considered albanian. About Botsaris. He was a Souliot, and the greek origin of Souliots is granted from Lord Byron himself who lived among them and made troops of them. Also, in a letter written in greek to Catherine the Great of Russia they were considering themselves Greeks, despite they spoke arvanitika too. Keep it Fake referred to Ali Pasha, whose Albanian commanders were taxed by the Souliots and that was Ali's main problem.
And at last, you simply cannot consider somebody Albanian when he fought at will, against Albanians in a National Independence war. Also i did not erase the phrase about Botsaris origins from Scanderbeg, because it might be. How are you sure of that? As far as history says Skadenberg himself had his titles from Byzantine origins. His father was Greek and his mother Serbian. He is Albania's National Hero, simply because Albanians also descend their origins of him. PS: Lord Byron. Byron comes from the Greek name Βύρων. Was lord Byron Greek because of that? -I do not think so... Alex Gerakis, 6:45 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Duh! The modern Albanian was set much later and borrowed from each dialect, but that doesn't mean Arvanitika isn't Albanian. We can still understand Arbereshe and Arvanitika.
You're a funny guy. Are you mad because Greeks didn't fight the Turks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake ( talk • contribs) 02:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
What Albanians? Did you know that Greeks supported Turks too...in that war? You need to read, read and read books other than what your church hands you.
You just made o completely POV adittion to the subject, also considering every person that has a deal with this, as "church book readers". In fact, you have no objective argument to mention in all that, than high-sky-hanged accusations and personal points as far as conclusions. And this is something i am mentioning on you contributing in these subjects. Above all, you do not even make a try to overwhelm it. Alex Gerakis, 4:43 12 September 2008 (UTC)
When will you accept history beyond nationalism? The greek wars of liberation were led mostly by Arbanites (southern Albanians), this is documented beyond any doubt. The greek state was founded on nationalism and ethnocentrism and this hasn't changed ever since..trasforming one nationality into another by simply wading the magic wond. Just pitiful!!! Etimo ( talk) 10:38, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 11:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Keep it Fake ( talk) 02:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted the Cham template from the arcticle because it seems at least grotesque for Botsaris, a prominent member of the Greek War of Independece to be qualifed alongside Aristidh Ruci, Ali Demi, Kristo Meksi, etc. I do not think that there is any serious source that disputes his Greek consciousness. Being a Souliotis, he was bilingual coming from a group of people, that of whatever origin, where incorporated into Greek nation by will. It's simple logic and I honestly can not understand why this template was introduced anyway, is as absurd as placing a She was German template next to Queen Victoria's article. Kapnisma ( talk) 23:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Apart from the above if we follow your logic then, as I wrote above, Queen Victoria was not English but German, Napoleon not French but Corsican, Chester W. Nimitz also German, etc If you disagree then we have to invite a third person to avoid meaningless reverts and edit wars. Kapnisma ( talk) 11:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Read again carefully, what I have written above, before reproducing something over and over.
So repeating myself once more, Markos Botsaris, as he is known and listed to all sources, (and not as Marko Boçari) as a prominent member of the Greek War of Independece who had linked his actions and finally his life with the Greek cause was by definition Greek, as
Napoleon was French although of Corsican origin,
Catherine II of Russia Russian, even of German, etc, etc, etc.
It's so simple, of course the fact that he originated from a hellenized albanian speaking community should and must be noted, but not as him belonging to Cham Albanian, Chams were, are and will be forever linked with Albanians beacause they never expressed a different consciousness, on the contrary Botsaris, Tzavelas and the Souliotes, regardless of origin became integrated into the Greek nation, is it so difficult to understand it, or you don't want to understand it? And I can't understand why are you insisting on it by placing his name in Albanian or by the Cham template, do you see any German editor going to Catherine's article messing it up, adding her German name next to her Russian and placing a she was German template?
Kapnisma (
talk)
15:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
PS: But I can not resist just telling you this, how on earth can you misrepresent what I say about Botsaris by the Lord Byron's poor example? Did he come from a hellenized population? MY GOD,HE WAS BRITISH!!!!!!!!! NOT SOULIOTIS... And since you like wiki rules, check Wikipedia:How many legs does a horse have? Kapnisma ( talk) 16:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh, check this [1] it's Fitz-Greene Halleck, oh! also [2] Henry Martyn Baird ...That Christians, armed in favour of the Koran against the disciples of the gospel, instruct and lead on the barbarous hordes which devastate the land of Cymon, Leonidas and Bozzaris...' oh! and [3] Thomas Gordon ...Marco Bozzaris was a leader of the Greeks in the late revolutionary war: he was killed in the assault of a Turkish camp. oh! and Charles William Smith [4] ...Marco Bozzaris was a hero of the Greek war for independence.; he gained fame for the defense of Missolonghi against the Turks and was killed in action in 1823... Kapnisma ( talk) 16:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh! There are interesting sources about Souliotes
I advise Kapnisma to try to understand the difference between a Hero of a revolution and Hero's ethnicity may be this will help you [ [8]] or even [ [9]] I don't see there an american and a greek:) Aigest ( talk) 19:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Really? the Albanian orthodox church was formed in the 20th century (1900-onwards)-- 85.72.87.202 ( talk) 19:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Even if he was of Albanian origin, Botsaris clearly identified as a Greek, and considered himself as such. For me, that is what truly matters, not his "blood" or "genes". He is Greek he who identifies as Greek, he is Cham Albanian he who identifies as Cham Albanian. Botsaris certainly identified as the former, not the latter, and this trumps everything. This is the 21st century, not the 19th. Arguments based "blood" and the purity thereof have no place here. As far as the name, virtually all sources mention him as "Markos Botsaris", never "Marco Bocari", so I really don't see why we even need to mention the Albanian name, let alone before the Greek one. -- Athenean ( talk) 16:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Athenean, your proof is just called WP:OR. Was Byron a Greek, because he fighted on the Greek side? And by the way, who is Makrogianis? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
You asked me for a secondary RS about his ethnicity. Here you are: The Greek Struggle for Independence, 1821-1833: 1821-1833, By Douglas Dakin, Published by Batsford, 1973 "Omer Vrionis found himself harassed by the Souliots who were in firm possession of their native mountains on his flank. Needless to say, the benefits to be gained by aiding these sturdy Christian Albanians were obvious to the Greeks, above all to Mavrokordatos, the commander-in-chief in western Greece." Referring to his battle with Markos Botsaris. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The next two sentences are: "Taking with him a corps of one hundred philhellenes under the command of Colonels Dania and Chevalier, a six-hundred strong Greek regiment of regulars (first formed by Dimitrios Ipsilantis) under the command of Colonel Tarella, a corps of Ionian Greeks under Panas and a band of Souliots under Markos Botsaris, he left Korinthos and repaired to Mesolonghi."
So he clearly speaks about the Souliots of Markos Botsaris, who were sturdy Christian Albanians. This means that the proccess of hellenization had not started on that time.fullstop. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
About Qemali some Frasheri's, they attended Zosimaia School in Ioannina, a really good choice to learn Greek. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Let me explain to you this way. I say that Botsaris had as mother tangue the Cham Albanian dialect [1], had Albania customs and traditions [2], was refered as Albanian by his ally, friend and succesor, Byron [3] and by his mentor during his activity on the Albanian (of course) regiment of the French Army, Francois Pouqueville [2], is regarded as an Orthodox Albanian by modern Reliable Sources, [4] was not accepted as Greek by other Greeks, as long as the 20th century [5] and we have no single testimony of what he declared accept of what his friends (Byron, Pouqueville, et.al.) have said. [6] And you say "The only other people who did so were Western Philhellenes like Byron, but Botsaris clearly does not fall under this category citation needed". You have some fact gaps to fill my friend, cause my statements are totally referenced.
Balkanian`s word ( talk) 21:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Note that the 71.* and 96.* IPs (Verizon IP from New Jersey) are block-evading Deucalionite ( talk · contribs) and can be rolled back and/or ignored. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Sources given till now, in connection with Botsaris or his clan (not Souliotes in general):
On ethnicity
Primary sources
ISBN 1402172214, 9781402172212
Secondary sources
Analysis
Please bring as much sources as you find. If there is no other Reliable Secondary Source, than Markos Botsaris is an Orthodox Albanian.
Note: Primary and Tertiary sources cannot be used as per WP:RS, they may be used only if supported by Secondary sources. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 12:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Has anybody seen this ? : "Markos Botsaris." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 02 Apr. 2009 I suppose it is clearly stated that Markos Botsaris has "led a band of a few hundred Souliot guerrillas on the night of Aug. 21, 1823, in a bold attack on 4,000 Albanians encamped at Karpenisíon." I do not suppose that it is easy to go against you keen unless you think you are not of it. Hence, he did not consider himself Albanian. Now, if you talk about bloodlines that is something different. Yparjis ( talk) 13:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
True I back that, and many had served in the Napoleon Army, but he "led a band of a few hundred Souliot guerrillas on the night of Aug. 21, 1823, in a bold attack on 4,000 Albanians " is at 1823 and he was not serving the Ottoman Army. In fact he led his own band against his own keen. He was not ordered to do so, because to preserve status or whatever fiscal relation. His motives are different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yparjis ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
This is needless, redundant, and provocative, as it goes directly against the compromise I implemented earlier to leave as "leader of the Souliotes" plain and simple [12]. I proposed this compromise to end the edit-warring on this page, User:Balkanian`s word agreed to it here [13], yet here he comes a few days later, hiding behind WP:RS to push his well-known agenda. We really don't need this sort of thing here. The ethnicity and origin of the Souliotes is discussed in the appropriate page, and we can leave it at that. "leader of the Souliotes" is more than good enough for this page, and "albanian leader of the Souliotes" is redundant and confusing to the reader. Does this mean the Souliotes were non-Albanians who happened to have an Albanian leader? For the sake of simplicity and clarity, I am going to remove it. -- Athenean ( talk) 19:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to ask, what is wrong with "leader of the Souliotes"? Changing that to "Orthodox Albanian leader of the Souliotes" is a clear and unmistakable attempt to promote Botsaris' "Albanian-ness", and as such is brazen POV-pushing (in addition to my observation of redundancy above). What's next, "an Orthodox Albanian leader of the Souliotes, who were a warlike ethnically Albanian community that became assimiliated into the Greek nation"? How many times do we have to say that he was Albanian, Albanian, and by the way, Albanian? This is clear POV-pushing and I will have none of it. -- Athenean ( talk) 19:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
This painting is weird. It's said to be painted in 1874, and shows apparently an old man, sitting slouched in an armchair, in a wealthy urban home. Hardly the kind of portrait you'd expect to find of a person who spent his life fighting in the mountains and died in battle at age 35. Who is this? Are we certain it is supposed to be "our" Markos Botsaris? (Or perhaps a descendent of his who lived in the painter's own days?) Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
It is supposed to be Botsaris [16] Kapnisma ( talk) 16:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
The lead represents half the reality. I will not deny his Albanian origins, but the facts remain:
So, just saying that "He was born into one of the leading clans of the Greek-Orthodox Albanian community" bla bla bla hides half the reality. Either scrap from the lead this useless section and put it in the "History" section; either add the magic word hellenized: "he was born into one of the leading hellenized clans", which is accurate.-- Yannismarou ( talk) 07:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Let put the facts straight. (1)Souliotes were Albanians, (2) Souliotes became hellenized, (3) Markos Botsaris was a Souliote.
Saying that Markos Botsaris was born in a Hellenized Albanian clan, means that in the time that Botsaris was born (late 18th century) this clan was indeed hellenized, otherwise it is a SYNTH.
But, at they time they were not Hellenized (see #Sources).
For Demetrios Botsaris, Makros son, you may create an article stating that he was Hellenized, but for Markos, you have to find sources that he was Hellenized. The secondary RS we have do not support your viewpoint, so as there is no new source about Markos, or his clan, it should remain as it was before the last edit. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 10:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Now, continuing this nonsentic discussion, I have to stress that the current phrasing of the lead is inconsistent with all the above sources. I remind you that the current lead is as follows:
Unfortunately for you, the three above sources give us three different wording all of them inconsistent with the current one (and of course with the previous one of yours, which did not even mention the hellenization). More specifically:
Following Miller, the lead should be phrased as follows:
Following Fleming, the lead should be phrased as follows:
Do you want me to continue?!-- Yannismarou ( talk) 08:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Jheeez, the Greek users on here sure are fast to come together. As an outsider however, I think that the sheer fact that we are having this debate seems to suggest that it is indeed pertinent to the article to mention this persons ethnicity. ( Interestedinfairness ( talk) 00:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).
I agree with Yanissmarou proposals. Hope some users will thing more encycopedically on that topic. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Marko Bocari spoke Albanian...be it a dialect of albanian...still albanian and is a fact because he composed the greek-albanian dictionary. he was not hellenised because a hellenized person in my view should speak greek as mother tounge. The fact that greek was the laguage of the orthodox liturgy made Albanians learn greek, the same like the northwest europians used latin in ther church procidings.
the fact is that albanians fought on religious grounds and so the albanian christians suported the greek effort and the muslim albanians suported the empire...you had albanians against albanians...byron writes on the issue. might as well see him as french given the fact of his services to the french.you are all bonkers..honestly! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Besnikalushi ( talk • contribs) 22:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
No as I see, so no removal of referenced edits. Aigest ( talk) 09:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm curious what kind of explanation will you give this time, about your -true Albanian- theory. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
You editing is astonishing, I thought this article was for Botsaris not Souliotes. Apparently I am wrong. Aigest ( talk) 10:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
It is ok for me if you want an explanation of the Souliotes in the lead. Just copy-paste you know. Aigest ( talk) 10:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I have provided detailed descriptions about the origins. Suppose u have to find too about the 'only Albanian' origins, in order to propose adjustments. Souliotes? were Botsaris not a Souliot? Alexikoua ( talk) 10:25, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
If you want to change the definition of Souliotes you should make it in the relevant article then change it here eventually. Until then the definition of Souliotes stands as per Souliotes article and with those references Aigest ( talk) 10:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
You already named it "who was either ethnically Albanian, or Hellenized Albanian". I say he was hellenized Albanian, you say he was ethnic Albanian. I doubt if there is a single detailed description presenting him non-hellenized and purely Albanian (the sources u provide don't give emphasis and details just say, M.B. the albanian bla bla..etc, the same happens with many other sources stateing him as Greek bla bla etc..). Moreover, depends on how you define ethnicity, but you argument is still lacking fundamental prove. Speaking just the language doesn't make you ethnic member of something- ethnicity is much more complicated and sometimes not clear.
Between the 'pure' Albanian and the complete 'hellenized' status we have a process that lasted some generations and off course a individual can be in the process of assimilation into another nation-there werent only pure Albanian or pure hellenized, what's wrong with you? (although I see there wasn't a pure and clear albanian ancestry as you insist). It seems that during the M. Botsaris years this 'proccess' was nearly (or fully) completed,
If you have something new to add about Markos Botsaris (souliot non yet hellenized-something not a single book says) about sources we can rearrange our conclusion, but the fact is it seems he was already hellenized (as well as the rest of souliotes that years) as per sources and discussion. (suppose your fundamental disagreement on that is that all people are ethnically pure) Alexikoua ( talk) 20:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Read Yanis' comments again. You misuse other's peoples comments too (except of sources). Alexikoua ( talk) 14:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I've and Ruches inline too, if you insist in your version, bring something saying 'pure Albania' or 'not yet hellenized'. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:LEAD, the lead should describe why the subject of the article is notable. Botsaris is notable for being a hero of the Greek War of independence. The lead should not go into digressions about what the Souliotes were and were not. I thus moved the passage about the Souliotes to the Early Life section, where it is more appropriate. Regarding the discussion on whether the Souliotes were Hellenized, I agree with both Yannismarou and Alexikoua. -- Athenean ( talk) 22:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Suppose this is not a serious answer to go back to the pure Albanian version as you already did. We have reach an point with Aegest. You insist not to give arguments and ignore disc. page and sources. Bring something that gives a clear and pure ethnic status on Botsaris and stop reverting (you found a great opportunity in this 'sock' case to upload your approach again). Alexikoua ( talk) 13:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Suppose you need to check these 3 sources again: the 2 of them don't specify if the adjective 'Albanian' refers to origin, ethnicity, language etc. That's why I said more detailed sources plz. About Murray, Winnifrith the argument is total wrong it says 'Souliotes, who were entirely Albanian' (Souliotes-not specifying the year, not Botsaris). I insist on Aegis, Yanismarou version. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
In a number of sources I see that Souliotes are mentioned in the war of independence period as 'of Albanian descent' or origin. I wonder why you insist on the 'ethnic albanian' argument. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Marko Botsari was killed by Lleshi i Zi (Black Alexander, the son of Gjon Marku), a catholic Mirdite hero in the battle of Karpenisi. Greek folk songs sing it this way:
Tr.: A LATIN dog, may his hand perish, Shot a bitter rifle on Marko's head. (page 187)
Lleshi i Zi's name is mentioned in this connection by Faik Konitza in his review "Albania", published at Bruxelles at the end of the nineteenth century.
... ou l'auteur pretend que Marko Botsari fut tue dans la bataille de Karpenitz par LESHI I ZI ( sic!) (La Chevelure Noire) ... (page 135) [21] Guildenrich ( talk) 00:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Very nice, you should add the book as a reference in the article. Alexikoua ( talk) 01:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
who are suliotes descended from, ethnicaly that is? A basic fact on their ethnicity is information. who they fought against and their contribution and association with the greek independece?a basic fact on that as well.linguisticaly Arvanitik-Albanian?Greek? Arvanitas and Albanian understand each other.does a greek understand arvanitika? The officail name of the reagion at the time should be stated. an explantion on localisms can be given in relation to the geographical names. -- Besnikalushi ( talk) 20:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
what about his childhood and education? -- Besnikalushi ( talk) 20:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
it can not be epirus you idiot because the officil name for the area was the pashilak of janina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Besnikalushi ( talk • contribs) 20:54, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
You wrote 'western rumelia'. What's that? Alexikoua ( talk) 21:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
the names of the area called by the authority that controlled it.like or not the state is and its admninistartive names are the legit forms of reconing an jurisdiction. -- Besnikalushi ( talk) 21:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
also...the suliotes can not be seen in isolation from the rest of the region.i.e a unique people. i agree that their ethnicity and langauge id albanian, their early consciousness was christian and later evolved to greek -- Besnikalushi ( talk) 21:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Per MOSBIO, I have removed the alternate name from the lead. There is no real need for it, as he it does not attest to the subject's notability, and he is hardly referred to as such by the sources. Besides it is also mentioned further down in the article. See also Talk:Kitsos Tzavelas. Athenean ( talk) 21:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
MOSBIO states nothing about other languages. As long as Albanian was the mother tangue of him, it is clear that it should be in there. I do not understand why the Greek language needs to be there. Is there a reason for the Greek language to be? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 09:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Athenean show me the sentence in MOSBIO that says that the name in Albanian should not be mentioned. -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
According to user's User:Zjarri addition [ [27]] although he admitted that his edits were wrong [ [28]] (addition of a 1888 event that he 'participated' while he died at 1870...) he refused to remove them. So I do it myself. Since this Dimitrios Botsaris (son of Markos Botsaris) didn't participated with Koulouriotis on something I've corrected the wikiproject tags (in the related article), as per current article. Alexikoua ( talk) 13:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Why is his name in Albanian included in the opening paragraph? As far as we know his family fought the Albanians and Ottomans, he fought for an independent Greece and died as a Greek for an independent Greece. Perhaps it should be included, why not, but certainly further down. Politis ( talk) 21:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, the Albanian version is already there. So the edit can proceede. Politis ( talk) 09:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
and I didn't search for all variants of the name, so obviously you're wrong.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Most English sources don't use the ç so search without ç.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Athenean you are doing some misleading of the discussion. The problem is that he gained his notability as an Albanian, so per wiki policies his Albanian name should go to the lead. Google hits have nothing to do with this. As a matter of fact, following MOSBIO, his name in Greek shouldn't be in the lede, but only the Albanian one because he was notable as an Albanian first, however, we should give more info not less in the lede, so I accept the Greek name there. The whole article is named by the Greek name, although this too is questionable. Don't make controversial removals of sourced material next time. In addition, rather than taking out CN, try doing some referencing next time rather than reverting. When something is unreferenced, it is flagged in an attempt to improve the article, so please stop becoming disruptive and try to bring some contributions. -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC
He gained his notability as Albanian? Sulmues please stop this or concert and avoid unconstructive edits with misleading edit summaries (Greek citizen....please). Alexikoua ( talk) 16:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm interpreting MOS:BIO correctly. His name in Albanian should stay in the lede because it's important to state his name in the language of his ethnicity. You want to make a speech on MOS:BIO, make it, no blind removals of sources and content please.-- Sulmues ( talk) 17:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) I'm not so WP:IDONTLIKEIT which is very disruptive.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)That's not a relevant part at all because alternative names go in the lead.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Athenean WP:IDHT because I brought the links and you're simply refusing to acknowledge that fact.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
t conduct a proper Google Books search, don't bother posting here. Now go to Google Books, select advanced search, select "English" as the language, then type "Marko Bocari" with the quotes, and see what you get. Athenean ( talk) 03:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)No I'm not oring but I think you are almost doing that by saying that the term Albanians didn't have an ethnic meaning(without even being able to associate that with the current discussion or produce a sufficient number of sources to support it even without associations to this issue). The subject didn't join the Orients and later was attached to the regiment but was a member of it prior to that event so any further arguments regarding that topic wouldn't be relevant to the article.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:19, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You've provided a snippet that doesn't refer to any particular regiment but says that "someone" used because of fame acquired by Albanian troops, while in our case we are dealing with Albanian troops(verified by your sources) so where is the reference that connects that snippet sentence with the Albanian regiment of the French army that existed from 1807 to 1814?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Made a B assessment and some improving edits, but the article is at a C status still. Someone has taken away the Lleshi i Zi reference, but I don't want to sort it out, who took it away, please explain why that reference was not of his liking. The war part is not properly expanded yet: and we still don't know who killed him from the article (Who doesn't like Lleshi i Zi???).
Since we all know one another, Greeks and Albanians, it would be nice to bring this guy to GA status together. -- Sulmues ( talk) 18:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
May we or may we not say the Albanian name of Markos Botsaris in the lede? Sulmues ( talk) 15:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
There many more English-language sources using it but these 3 are sufficient to refute Alexikoua's 99% of the bibliography is Albanian claim(and you can see who author is on the page). Beserks shouldn't have searched for Bocarit because that gives results for the title of his dictionary.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC) -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Number 1 in the snippet list above is unclear (snippet doesn't show much), but from the little I can see it seems likely this is
mention, not use – it's a discussion of how Albanians use names, not an English-speaking author using the name himself. Number 2
is E. P. Hamp (1972), "Albanian," Current Trends in Linguistics 9, 1649-50. That would be a reliable source. Can't find out much about the others.
Fut.Perf.
☼
19:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
OK, Marko Boçari in English and other sources [ [39]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beserks ( talk • contribs) 06:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
You must be mistaken for [42], because a close look to the link you gave, gives few Kiparos.
Kiparo, 1 [43]
Ipsato, 1 [46]
luparo 1, [47]
Kirata 1, [48] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beserks ( talk • contribs) 10:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
On the Matter of Souli. In this Book - Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia, &c. during the years 1812-1813 (Google e-bog) by Sir Henry Holland on page 448 he talks about the souli… He clearly defines them as Christian Albanians. Also do note that this was before the Greek uprising started and that we can consider this a neutral observation by a person who had no stake in the matter.
Link to online book Quote from page 448 “They were Albanian in origin, belonging to the division belonging to that people called Tzamides, while many of their country men had become Muhametans, The souli Retained their Christian identity.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.52.34.203 ( talk) 17:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Can some one add this book to the main artical as a refrence. Im not sure how to do it and dont want to mes anything up. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.52.34.203 (
talk)
17:38, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Takabeg ( talk) 22:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm puzzled as to why such a term is used instead of just "Ottomans". If the souliotes are not referred to as "albanian souliotes" then there is no need in referring to the ottomans as "ottoman albanians".The ethnicity of the troops or groups is of no importance, and here it seems like it is just a weak attempt to portray albanians in a negative light Udha ( talk) 19:45, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
It appears you need to read the inline references. The pasha of Shkodra was an Ottoman Albanian pasha, I can point you were Shkodra is located if you need some geographical advice. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Arvanitika is a linguistic term deliberately ill-defined as belonging to those populations that spoke a language, ascended primarily from Latin and secondly Greek. In fact Arvanitika is simply the Albanian language in the Tosk dialect spoken today in the south of Albania. Any Albanian from the south or the north of Albania can easily understand Arvanitika. Arvanites are Albanians now completely assimilated into Greeks mostly forcibly in order to artificially keep together the country called Greece today that in the 1900s was a multinational country with multiple languages spoken and multiple religions followed. Today, some Arvanites naturally consider themselves Greeks and they know nothing about their former Albanian heritage after centuries of living in Greece and after repressive ethnic policies of the Greek State against Arvanites.
First of all, arvantika is a language spoken before albanian. Secondly, an amalgam of languages older than albanian, such as greek and latin and most of all wider than albanian cannot be considered albanian. About Botsaris. He was a Souliot, and the greek origin of Souliots is granted from Lord Byron himself who lived among them and made troops of them. Also, in a letter written in greek to Catherine the Great of Russia they were considering themselves Greeks, despite they spoke arvanitika too. Keep it Fake referred to Ali Pasha, whose Albanian commanders were taxed by the Souliots and that was Ali's main problem.
And at last, you simply cannot consider somebody Albanian when he fought at will, against Albanians in a National Independence war. Also i did not erase the phrase about Botsaris origins from Scanderbeg, because it might be. How are you sure of that? As far as history says Skadenberg himself had his titles from Byzantine origins. His father was Greek and his mother Serbian. He is Albania's National Hero, simply because Albanians also descend their origins of him. PS: Lord Byron. Byron comes from the Greek name Βύρων. Was lord Byron Greek because of that? -I do not think so... Alex Gerakis, 6:45 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Duh! The modern Albanian was set much later and borrowed from each dialect, but that doesn't mean Arvanitika isn't Albanian. We can still understand Arbereshe and Arvanitika.
You're a funny guy. Are you mad because Greeks didn't fight the Turks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake ( talk • contribs) 02:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
What Albanians? Did you know that Greeks supported Turks too...in that war? You need to read, read and read books other than what your church hands you.
You just made o completely POV adittion to the subject, also considering every person that has a deal with this, as "church book readers". In fact, you have no objective argument to mention in all that, than high-sky-hanged accusations and personal points as far as conclusions. And this is something i am mentioning on you contributing in these subjects. Above all, you do not even make a try to overwhelm it. Alex Gerakis, 4:43 12 September 2008 (UTC)
When will you accept history beyond nationalism? The greek wars of liberation were led mostly by Arbanites (southern Albanians), this is documented beyond any doubt. The greek state was founded on nationalism and ethnocentrism and this hasn't changed ever since..trasforming one nationality into another by simply wading the magic wond. Just pitiful!!! Etimo ( talk) 10:38, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 11:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Keep it Fake ( talk) 02:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted the Cham template from the arcticle because it seems at least grotesque for Botsaris, a prominent member of the Greek War of Independece to be qualifed alongside Aristidh Ruci, Ali Demi, Kristo Meksi, etc. I do not think that there is any serious source that disputes his Greek consciousness. Being a Souliotis, he was bilingual coming from a group of people, that of whatever origin, where incorporated into Greek nation by will. It's simple logic and I honestly can not understand why this template was introduced anyway, is as absurd as placing a She was German template next to Queen Victoria's article. Kapnisma ( talk) 23:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Apart from the above if we follow your logic then, as I wrote above, Queen Victoria was not English but German, Napoleon not French but Corsican, Chester W. Nimitz also German, etc If you disagree then we have to invite a third person to avoid meaningless reverts and edit wars. Kapnisma ( talk) 11:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Read again carefully, what I have written above, before reproducing something over and over.
So repeating myself once more, Markos Botsaris, as he is known and listed to all sources, (and not as Marko Boçari) as a prominent member of the Greek War of Independece who had linked his actions and finally his life with the Greek cause was by definition Greek, as
Napoleon was French although of Corsican origin,
Catherine II of Russia Russian, even of German, etc, etc, etc.
It's so simple, of course the fact that he originated from a hellenized albanian speaking community should and must be noted, but not as him belonging to Cham Albanian, Chams were, are and will be forever linked with Albanians beacause they never expressed a different consciousness, on the contrary Botsaris, Tzavelas and the Souliotes, regardless of origin became integrated into the Greek nation, is it so difficult to understand it, or you don't want to understand it? And I can't understand why are you insisting on it by placing his name in Albanian or by the Cham template, do you see any German editor going to Catherine's article messing it up, adding her German name next to her Russian and placing a she was German template?
Kapnisma (
talk)
15:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
PS: But I can not resist just telling you this, how on earth can you misrepresent what I say about Botsaris by the Lord Byron's poor example? Did he come from a hellenized population? MY GOD,HE WAS BRITISH!!!!!!!!! NOT SOULIOTIS... And since you like wiki rules, check Wikipedia:How many legs does a horse have? Kapnisma ( talk) 16:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh, check this [1] it's Fitz-Greene Halleck, oh! also [2] Henry Martyn Baird ...That Christians, armed in favour of the Koran against the disciples of the gospel, instruct and lead on the barbarous hordes which devastate the land of Cymon, Leonidas and Bozzaris...' oh! and [3] Thomas Gordon ...Marco Bozzaris was a leader of the Greeks in the late revolutionary war: he was killed in the assault of a Turkish camp. oh! and Charles William Smith [4] ...Marco Bozzaris was a hero of the Greek war for independence.; he gained fame for the defense of Missolonghi against the Turks and was killed in action in 1823... Kapnisma ( talk) 16:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh! There are interesting sources about Souliotes
I advise Kapnisma to try to understand the difference between a Hero of a revolution and Hero's ethnicity may be this will help you [ [8]] or even [ [9]] I don't see there an american and a greek:) Aigest ( talk) 19:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Really? the Albanian orthodox church was formed in the 20th century (1900-onwards)-- 85.72.87.202 ( talk) 19:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Even if he was of Albanian origin, Botsaris clearly identified as a Greek, and considered himself as such. For me, that is what truly matters, not his "blood" or "genes". He is Greek he who identifies as Greek, he is Cham Albanian he who identifies as Cham Albanian. Botsaris certainly identified as the former, not the latter, and this trumps everything. This is the 21st century, not the 19th. Arguments based "blood" and the purity thereof have no place here. As far as the name, virtually all sources mention him as "Markos Botsaris", never "Marco Bocari", so I really don't see why we even need to mention the Albanian name, let alone before the Greek one. -- Athenean ( talk) 16:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Athenean, your proof is just called WP:OR. Was Byron a Greek, because he fighted on the Greek side? And by the way, who is Makrogianis? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
You asked me for a secondary RS about his ethnicity. Here you are: The Greek Struggle for Independence, 1821-1833: 1821-1833, By Douglas Dakin, Published by Batsford, 1973 "Omer Vrionis found himself harassed by the Souliots who were in firm possession of their native mountains on his flank. Needless to say, the benefits to be gained by aiding these sturdy Christian Albanians were obvious to the Greeks, above all to Mavrokordatos, the commander-in-chief in western Greece." Referring to his battle with Markos Botsaris. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The next two sentences are: "Taking with him a corps of one hundred philhellenes under the command of Colonels Dania and Chevalier, a six-hundred strong Greek regiment of regulars (first formed by Dimitrios Ipsilantis) under the command of Colonel Tarella, a corps of Ionian Greeks under Panas and a band of Souliots under Markos Botsaris, he left Korinthos and repaired to Mesolonghi."
So he clearly speaks about the Souliots of Markos Botsaris, who were sturdy Christian Albanians. This means that the proccess of hellenization had not started on that time.fullstop. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 18:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
About Qemali some Frasheri's, they attended Zosimaia School in Ioannina, a really good choice to learn Greek. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Let me explain to you this way. I say that Botsaris had as mother tangue the Cham Albanian dialect [1], had Albania customs and traditions [2], was refered as Albanian by his ally, friend and succesor, Byron [3] and by his mentor during his activity on the Albanian (of course) regiment of the French Army, Francois Pouqueville [2], is regarded as an Orthodox Albanian by modern Reliable Sources, [4] was not accepted as Greek by other Greeks, as long as the 20th century [5] and we have no single testimony of what he declared accept of what his friends (Byron, Pouqueville, et.al.) have said. [6] And you say "The only other people who did so were Western Philhellenes like Byron, but Botsaris clearly does not fall under this category citation needed". You have some fact gaps to fill my friend, cause my statements are totally referenced.
Balkanian`s word ( talk) 21:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Note that the 71.* and 96.* IPs (Verizon IP from New Jersey) are block-evading Deucalionite ( talk · contribs) and can be rolled back and/or ignored. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Sources given till now, in connection with Botsaris or his clan (not Souliotes in general):
On ethnicity
Primary sources
ISBN 1402172214, 9781402172212
Secondary sources
Analysis
Please bring as much sources as you find. If there is no other Reliable Secondary Source, than Markos Botsaris is an Orthodox Albanian.
Note: Primary and Tertiary sources cannot be used as per WP:RS, they may be used only if supported by Secondary sources. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 12:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Has anybody seen this ? : "Markos Botsaris." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2009. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 02 Apr. 2009 I suppose it is clearly stated that Markos Botsaris has "led a band of a few hundred Souliot guerrillas on the night of Aug. 21, 1823, in a bold attack on 4,000 Albanians encamped at Karpenisíon." I do not suppose that it is easy to go against you keen unless you think you are not of it. Hence, he did not consider himself Albanian. Now, if you talk about bloodlines that is something different. Yparjis ( talk) 13:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
True I back that, and many had served in the Napoleon Army, but he "led a band of a few hundred Souliot guerrillas on the night of Aug. 21, 1823, in a bold attack on 4,000 Albanians " is at 1823 and he was not serving the Ottoman Army. In fact he led his own band against his own keen. He was not ordered to do so, because to preserve status or whatever fiscal relation. His motives are different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yparjis ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
This is needless, redundant, and provocative, as it goes directly against the compromise I implemented earlier to leave as "leader of the Souliotes" plain and simple [12]. I proposed this compromise to end the edit-warring on this page, User:Balkanian`s word agreed to it here [13], yet here he comes a few days later, hiding behind WP:RS to push his well-known agenda. We really don't need this sort of thing here. The ethnicity and origin of the Souliotes is discussed in the appropriate page, and we can leave it at that. "leader of the Souliotes" is more than good enough for this page, and "albanian leader of the Souliotes" is redundant and confusing to the reader. Does this mean the Souliotes were non-Albanians who happened to have an Albanian leader? For the sake of simplicity and clarity, I am going to remove it. -- Athenean ( talk) 19:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to ask, what is wrong with "leader of the Souliotes"? Changing that to "Orthodox Albanian leader of the Souliotes" is a clear and unmistakable attempt to promote Botsaris' "Albanian-ness", and as such is brazen POV-pushing (in addition to my observation of redundancy above). What's next, "an Orthodox Albanian leader of the Souliotes, who were a warlike ethnically Albanian community that became assimiliated into the Greek nation"? How many times do we have to say that he was Albanian, Albanian, and by the way, Albanian? This is clear POV-pushing and I will have none of it. -- Athenean ( talk) 19:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
This painting is weird. It's said to be painted in 1874, and shows apparently an old man, sitting slouched in an armchair, in a wealthy urban home. Hardly the kind of portrait you'd expect to find of a person who spent his life fighting in the mountains and died in battle at age 35. Who is this? Are we certain it is supposed to be "our" Markos Botsaris? (Or perhaps a descendent of his who lived in the painter's own days?) Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
It is supposed to be Botsaris [16] Kapnisma ( talk) 16:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
The lead represents half the reality. I will not deny his Albanian origins, but the facts remain:
So, just saying that "He was born into one of the leading clans of the Greek-Orthodox Albanian community" bla bla bla hides half the reality. Either scrap from the lead this useless section and put it in the "History" section; either add the magic word hellenized: "he was born into one of the leading hellenized clans", which is accurate.-- Yannismarou ( talk) 07:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Let put the facts straight. (1)Souliotes were Albanians, (2) Souliotes became hellenized, (3) Markos Botsaris was a Souliote.
Saying that Markos Botsaris was born in a Hellenized Albanian clan, means that in the time that Botsaris was born (late 18th century) this clan was indeed hellenized, otherwise it is a SYNTH.
But, at they time they were not Hellenized (see #Sources).
For Demetrios Botsaris, Makros son, you may create an article stating that he was Hellenized, but for Markos, you have to find sources that he was Hellenized. The secondary RS we have do not support your viewpoint, so as there is no new source about Markos, or his clan, it should remain as it was before the last edit. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 10:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Now, continuing this nonsentic discussion, I have to stress that the current phrasing of the lead is inconsistent with all the above sources. I remind you that the current lead is as follows:
Unfortunately for you, the three above sources give us three different wording all of them inconsistent with the current one (and of course with the previous one of yours, which did not even mention the hellenization). More specifically:
Following Miller, the lead should be phrased as follows:
Following Fleming, the lead should be phrased as follows:
Do you want me to continue?!-- Yannismarou ( talk) 08:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Jheeez, the Greek users on here sure are fast to come together. As an outsider however, I think that the sheer fact that we are having this debate seems to suggest that it is indeed pertinent to the article to mention this persons ethnicity. ( Interestedinfairness ( talk) 00:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).
I agree with Yanissmarou proposals. Hope some users will thing more encycopedically on that topic. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Marko Bocari spoke Albanian...be it a dialect of albanian...still albanian and is a fact because he composed the greek-albanian dictionary. he was not hellenised because a hellenized person in my view should speak greek as mother tounge. The fact that greek was the laguage of the orthodox liturgy made Albanians learn greek, the same like the northwest europians used latin in ther church procidings.
the fact is that albanians fought on religious grounds and so the albanian christians suported the greek effort and the muslim albanians suported the empire...you had albanians against albanians...byron writes on the issue. might as well see him as french given the fact of his services to the french.you are all bonkers..honestly! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Besnikalushi ( talk • contribs) 22:05, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
No as I see, so no removal of referenced edits. Aigest ( talk) 09:14, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm curious what kind of explanation will you give this time, about your -true Albanian- theory. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
You editing is astonishing, I thought this article was for Botsaris not Souliotes. Apparently I am wrong. Aigest ( talk) 10:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
It is ok for me if you want an explanation of the Souliotes in the lead. Just copy-paste you know. Aigest ( talk) 10:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I have provided detailed descriptions about the origins. Suppose u have to find too about the 'only Albanian' origins, in order to propose adjustments. Souliotes? were Botsaris not a Souliot? Alexikoua ( talk) 10:25, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
If you want to change the definition of Souliotes you should make it in the relevant article then change it here eventually. Until then the definition of Souliotes stands as per Souliotes article and with those references Aigest ( talk) 10:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
You already named it "who was either ethnically Albanian, or Hellenized Albanian". I say he was hellenized Albanian, you say he was ethnic Albanian. I doubt if there is a single detailed description presenting him non-hellenized and purely Albanian (the sources u provide don't give emphasis and details just say, M.B. the albanian bla bla..etc, the same happens with many other sources stateing him as Greek bla bla etc..). Moreover, depends on how you define ethnicity, but you argument is still lacking fundamental prove. Speaking just the language doesn't make you ethnic member of something- ethnicity is much more complicated and sometimes not clear.
Between the 'pure' Albanian and the complete 'hellenized' status we have a process that lasted some generations and off course a individual can be in the process of assimilation into another nation-there werent only pure Albanian or pure hellenized, what's wrong with you? (although I see there wasn't a pure and clear albanian ancestry as you insist). It seems that during the M. Botsaris years this 'proccess' was nearly (or fully) completed,
If you have something new to add about Markos Botsaris (souliot non yet hellenized-something not a single book says) about sources we can rearrange our conclusion, but the fact is it seems he was already hellenized (as well as the rest of souliotes that years) as per sources and discussion. (suppose your fundamental disagreement on that is that all people are ethnically pure) Alexikoua ( talk) 20:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Read Yanis' comments again. You misuse other's peoples comments too (except of sources). Alexikoua ( talk) 14:06, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I've and Ruches inline too, if you insist in your version, bring something saying 'pure Albania' or 'not yet hellenized'. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:LEAD, the lead should describe why the subject of the article is notable. Botsaris is notable for being a hero of the Greek War of independence. The lead should not go into digressions about what the Souliotes were and were not. I thus moved the passage about the Souliotes to the Early Life section, where it is more appropriate. Regarding the discussion on whether the Souliotes were Hellenized, I agree with both Yannismarou and Alexikoua. -- Athenean ( talk) 22:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Suppose this is not a serious answer to go back to the pure Albanian version as you already did. We have reach an point with Aegest. You insist not to give arguments and ignore disc. page and sources. Bring something that gives a clear and pure ethnic status on Botsaris and stop reverting (you found a great opportunity in this 'sock' case to upload your approach again). Alexikoua ( talk) 13:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Suppose you need to check these 3 sources again: the 2 of them don't specify if the adjective 'Albanian' refers to origin, ethnicity, language etc. That's why I said more detailed sources plz. About Murray, Winnifrith the argument is total wrong it says 'Souliotes, who were entirely Albanian' (Souliotes-not specifying the year, not Botsaris). I insist on Aegis, Yanismarou version. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
In a number of sources I see that Souliotes are mentioned in the war of independence period as 'of Albanian descent' or origin. I wonder why you insist on the 'ethnic albanian' argument. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Marko Botsari was killed by Lleshi i Zi (Black Alexander, the son of Gjon Marku), a catholic Mirdite hero in the battle of Karpenisi. Greek folk songs sing it this way:
Tr.: A LATIN dog, may his hand perish, Shot a bitter rifle on Marko's head. (page 187)
Lleshi i Zi's name is mentioned in this connection by Faik Konitza in his review "Albania", published at Bruxelles at the end of the nineteenth century.
... ou l'auteur pretend que Marko Botsari fut tue dans la bataille de Karpenitz par LESHI I ZI ( sic!) (La Chevelure Noire) ... (page 135) [21] Guildenrich ( talk) 00:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
Very nice, you should add the book as a reference in the article. Alexikoua ( talk) 01:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
who are suliotes descended from, ethnicaly that is? A basic fact on their ethnicity is information. who they fought against and their contribution and association with the greek independece?a basic fact on that as well.linguisticaly Arvanitik-Albanian?Greek? Arvanitas and Albanian understand each other.does a greek understand arvanitika? The officail name of the reagion at the time should be stated. an explantion on localisms can be given in relation to the geographical names. -- Besnikalushi ( talk) 20:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
what about his childhood and education? -- Besnikalushi ( talk) 20:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
it can not be epirus you idiot because the officil name for the area was the pashilak of janina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Besnikalushi ( talk • contribs) 20:54, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
You wrote 'western rumelia'. What's that? Alexikoua ( talk) 21:08, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
the names of the area called by the authority that controlled it.like or not the state is and its admninistartive names are the legit forms of reconing an jurisdiction. -- Besnikalushi ( talk) 21:14, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
also...the suliotes can not be seen in isolation from the rest of the region.i.e a unique people. i agree that their ethnicity and langauge id albanian, their early consciousness was christian and later evolved to greek -- Besnikalushi ( talk) 21:21, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Per MOSBIO, I have removed the alternate name from the lead. There is no real need for it, as he it does not attest to the subject's notability, and he is hardly referred to as such by the sources. Besides it is also mentioned further down in the article. See also Talk:Kitsos Tzavelas. Athenean ( talk) 21:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
MOSBIO states nothing about other languages. As long as Albanian was the mother tangue of him, it is clear that it should be in there. I do not understand why the Greek language needs to be there. Is there a reason for the Greek language to be? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 09:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Athenean show me the sentence in MOSBIO that says that the name in Albanian should not be mentioned. -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
According to user's User:Zjarri addition [ [27]] although he admitted that his edits were wrong [ [28]] (addition of a 1888 event that he 'participated' while he died at 1870...) he refused to remove them. So I do it myself. Since this Dimitrios Botsaris (son of Markos Botsaris) didn't participated with Koulouriotis on something I've corrected the wikiproject tags (in the related article), as per current article. Alexikoua ( talk) 13:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Why is his name in Albanian included in the opening paragraph? As far as we know his family fought the Albanians and Ottomans, he fought for an independent Greece and died as a Greek for an independent Greece. Perhaps it should be included, why not, but certainly further down. Politis ( talk) 21:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, the Albanian version is already there. So the edit can proceede. Politis ( talk) 09:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
and I didn't search for all variants of the name, so obviously you're wrong.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Most English sources don't use the ç so search without ç.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Athenean you are doing some misleading of the discussion. The problem is that he gained his notability as an Albanian, so per wiki policies his Albanian name should go to the lead. Google hits have nothing to do with this. As a matter of fact, following MOSBIO, his name in Greek shouldn't be in the lede, but only the Albanian one because he was notable as an Albanian first, however, we should give more info not less in the lede, so I accept the Greek name there. The whole article is named by the Greek name, although this too is questionable. Don't make controversial removals of sourced material next time. In addition, rather than taking out CN, try doing some referencing next time rather than reverting. When something is unreferenced, it is flagged in an attempt to improve the article, so please stop becoming disruptive and try to bring some contributions. -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC
He gained his notability as Albanian? Sulmues please stop this or concert and avoid unconstructive edits with misleading edit summaries (Greek citizen....please). Alexikoua ( talk) 16:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm interpreting MOS:BIO correctly. His name in Albanian should stay in the lede because it's important to state his name in the language of his ethnicity. You want to make a speech on MOS:BIO, make it, no blind removals of sources and content please.-- Sulmues ( talk) 17:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) I'm not so WP:IDONTLIKEIT which is very disruptive.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)That's not a relevant part at all because alternative names go in the lead.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Athenean WP:IDHT because I brought the links and you're simply refusing to acknowledge that fact.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
t conduct a proper Google Books search, don't bother posting here. Now go to Google Books, select advanced search, select "English" as the language, then type "Marko Bocari" with the quotes, and see what you get. Athenean ( talk) 03:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)No I'm not oring but I think you are almost doing that by saying that the term Albanians didn't have an ethnic meaning(without even being able to associate that with the current discussion or produce a sufficient number of sources to support it even without associations to this issue). The subject didn't join the Orients and later was attached to the regiment but was a member of it prior to that event so any further arguments regarding that topic wouldn't be relevant to the article.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:19, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)You've provided a snippet that doesn't refer to any particular regiment but says that "someone" used because of fame acquired by Albanian troops, while in our case we are dealing with Albanian troops(verified by your sources) so where is the reference that connects that snippet sentence with the Albanian regiment of the French army that existed from 1807 to 1814?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Made a B assessment and some improving edits, but the article is at a C status still. Someone has taken away the Lleshi i Zi reference, but I don't want to sort it out, who took it away, please explain why that reference was not of his liking. The war part is not properly expanded yet: and we still don't know who killed him from the article (Who doesn't like Lleshi i Zi???).
Since we all know one another, Greeks and Albanians, it would be nice to bring this guy to GA status together. -- Sulmues ( talk) 18:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
May we or may we not say the Albanian name of Markos Botsaris in the lede? Sulmues ( talk) 15:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
There many more English-language sources using it but these 3 are sufficient to refute Alexikoua's 99% of the bibliography is Albanian claim(and you can see who author is on the page). Beserks shouldn't have searched for Bocarit because that gives results for the title of his dictionary.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC) -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Number 1 in the snippet list above is unclear (snippet doesn't show much), but from the little I can see it seems likely this is
mention, not use – it's a discussion of how Albanians use names, not an English-speaking author using the name himself. Number 2
is E. P. Hamp (1972), "Albanian," Current Trends in Linguistics 9, 1649-50. That would be a reliable source. Can't find out much about the others.
Fut.Perf.
☼
19:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
OK, Marko Boçari in English and other sources [ [39]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beserks ( talk • contribs) 06:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
You must be mistaken for [42], because a close look to the link you gave, gives few Kiparos.
Kiparo, 1 [43]
Ipsato, 1 [46]
luparo 1, [47]
Kirata 1, [48] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beserks ( talk • contribs) 10:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
On the Matter of Souli. In this Book - Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia, &c. during the years 1812-1813 (Google e-bog) by Sir Henry Holland on page 448 he talks about the souli… He clearly defines them as Christian Albanians. Also do note that this was before the Greek uprising started and that we can consider this a neutral observation by a person who had no stake in the matter.
Link to online book Quote from page 448 “They were Albanian in origin, belonging to the division belonging to that people called Tzamides, while many of their country men had become Muhametans, The souli Retained their Christian identity.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.52.34.203 ( talk) 17:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Can some one add this book to the main artical as a refrence. Im not sure how to do it and dont want to mes anything up. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
87.52.34.203 (
talk)
17:38, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Takabeg ( talk) 22:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm puzzled as to why such a term is used instead of just "Ottomans". If the souliotes are not referred to as "albanian souliotes" then there is no need in referring to the ottomans as "ottoman albanians".The ethnicity of the troops or groups is of no importance, and here it seems like it is just a weak attempt to portray albanians in a negative light Udha ( talk) 19:45, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
It appears you need to read the inline references. The pasha of Shkodra was an Ottoman Albanian pasha, I can point you were Shkodra is located if you need some geographical advice. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
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