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Socialist individualist anarchists do oppose usury and ownership of the means of production beyond what can be worked by the individual. What I added was simply showing the differences between the two types. -- AFA 05:50, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I put a disputed POV and factual accuracy tag, because it makes the claim that "market anarchism" comes from Prouhdon, etc, and makes it look like it's only used "sometimes" for anarcho-capitalism. The claims are not sourced at all. I'm not aware of Proudon or others of his kind using the term. RJII 18:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
This article does not add much that is not explained better elsewhere. I propose this be a disambiguation page linking to anarcho-capitalism, mutualism and agorism, or that it be merged into one of these. Any opinions? 20:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is this a seperate article when it seems to be the same as Anarcho-capitalism? Lord Metroid 20:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I support the merge.-- Eduen ( talk) 07:01, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I would actually prefer a merge of anarcho-capitalism into free-market anarchism because the word capitalism is usually associated with statism and corporatism and is identified with protectionism and limited third party liability. ( Libertaar ( talk) 11:56, 11 July 2010 (UTC)).
The anarcho-capitalism article is obviously more popular. It is more edited, more visited, and more discussed. The term also enjoys usage at well-respected academic institutions (instead of free-market anarchism) such as the Mises Institute and Cato Institute. I know this because I have attended conferences with leading scholars from these places. Anarcho-capitalism is simply more favored demographically. I support this change. BennyQuixote ( talk) 17:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree that Mutualism SHOULD be considered as a type of market anarchism, but are there any sources for it being called this? If not, then we can't include it in the article because that would be "original research." Anarcho-capitalism 20:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The Molinari Institute website defines market anarchism like this: "Market Anarchism is the doctrine that the legislative, adjudicative, and protective functions unjustly and inefficiently monopolised by the coercive State should be entirely turned over to the voluntary, consensual forces of market society." That rules out Proudhon, because he never advocate privately-funded security functions. But, that's just a website. I'm looking for a scholarly definition of market anarchism. Anarcho-capitalism 20:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
What's the difference between individualist anarchism, anarcho-capitalism, and market anarchism? Fephisto 06:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Given (1) The term "free market" is used to denote non-coerced and non-fraudulent exchange of goods and services and (2) Market anarchism (or free-market anarchism) is a label commonly used to describe a number of individualist anarchist philosophies that assert that all the institutions necessary for the function of a free market, such as money, police, and courts, should be provided by the market itself, wouldn't, e.g., anarcho-communism meet that definition of market anarchism? Jacob Haller 05:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
(Since this came up on the article page). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jacob Haller ( talk • contribs) 18:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
Yes. Proudhon did not advocate market provided defense. He defined anarchy as "a form of government or constitution in which public and private consciousness, formed through the development of science and law, is alone sufficient to maintain order and guarantee all liberties. In it, as a consequence, the institutions of the police, preventive and repressive methods, officialdom, taxation, etc., are reduced to a minimum." Defense would be provided by a miniarchist system funded by taxation. I believe he thought that defense would become less needed over time, over hundreds of years as people evolve, until there would be no need for defense at all. You may be tempted to change the definition of market anarchism just to fit Proudhon in but I suggest you don't. The definition has a source. All true market anarchists are market anarchists because of opposition to taxation. They like the protections services but want it to be funded voluntarily. That's the essence of market anarchism. Crashola 19:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Concerning Josiah Warren, he just advocated that land by sold at cost in order to be "equitable." He did not espouse the idea of what you call "possession." Crashola 20:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
As for "Intellectual Property," I know that most mutualists (including Proudhon, Tucker, and Carson) and most agorists (including Long) among others (Rothbard) have opposed IP. Spooner favored IP. Jacob Haller 23:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I know that many propertarians have endorsed abandonment standards. So many versions of Locke's system, as well as of Proudhon's system, regard long-term non-use as non-ownership. He may be persona non grata on wikipedia, but Bill Orton's "stickiness" continuum comes to mind. Jacob Haller 23:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC) In addition, An Anarchist FAQ B.3.1, goes into social-anarchist interpretations of possession. Between social anarchists and mutualists, that's most libertarian socialists. Jacob Haller 23:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You insist on mentioning the Lockean proviso. Anarcho-capitalists don't accept it. What market anarchists do? Crashola 01:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Since most Lockeans think you lose property rights if you “abandon” a piece of property, one could say the fundamental difference between mutualists and Lockeans is a question of what counts as abandonment (a point Kevin Carson has made). If you look at it that way, it’s not obvious that mutualists are closer to Georgists than to Lockeans.
- Locke had two different provisos - one was "enough and as good" and the other was the "spoilage" proviso...geoists follow the "enough and as good" proviso and mutualists follow the "spoilage" proviso because the produce left rotting in the field free for gleaners to take for personal consumption without violating property rights, is considered abandoned by the farmer. BeGreener 14:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would think that mutualist opposition to allowing individuals to continue to own land that they're not using would be based in the "enough and as good" idea. It's not the crop rotting that they're concerned about but the land itself. Crashola 22:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- "enough and as good" is defined by the appearance of economic rent - why would I pay someone to locate where they are if the had left (subjectively determined) enough and as good for me to freely homestead? this is the basis of the geoist position...whereas why would I occupy and use more land than I could til and harvest if what is left in the field was free for gleaners to appropriate without violating property rights? BeGreener 02:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Among those who accept some version of private ownership, another difference is whether the possibility of common ownership is also endorsed. David Schmidtz, Carlton Hobbs, Randall Holcombe and I have all defended the position that there could and should be cases of legitimate common ownership in a libertarian society. Most Rothbardians reject this view. (I don’t mean that they reject the possibility of contractually-formed partnerships and the like, but they do tend to reject the idea of less explicit and less rigidly bounded forms of common ownership.)
I deleted the whole section, since nothing at all was sourced. How about only adding information one bit at a time that is sourced instead of just speculating about things? Crashola 01:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I think "free market anarchism" is the more common name for this in books and articles instead of just "market anarchism." Change the title of the article? Operation Spooner 19:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to cover exactly the same things (Tucker, AnCap, etc.) as Individualist anarchism. If it differs in any respect it's in the POV presented - and POV forks should be avoided. Is there a good reason not to redirect? Bacchiad 14:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this section adds much of anything. It is essentially one person stating his vague perceptions as fact. The two links to Issues in Anarchism and Political Framing are helpful, though. Fritter ( talk) 23:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyone have a source for mutualism being "market anarchism?" It doesn't appear to fit the sourced definitions. Just because a form of anarchism supports markets, I don't believe that makes it market anarchism. Collectivist Anarchism (Bakunin) supports markets, but I don't think that is considered to be market anarchism. Operation Spooner ( talk) 19:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Never mind. I altered the wording to say "some mutualists" instead of mutualism as a whole. Operation Spooner ( talk) 20:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
"Free-market anarchism" seems to be the more popular name. If you do a Google search to test for the term "market anarchism" that doesn't have the "free" in front of it like this: ""market anarchism" -"free-market anarchism" -Wikipedia"" you get 1530 hits. When you test for "free-market anarchism" like this: ""free-market anarchism" -Wikipedia"" you get 6890 hits. My observation has been that the original term is "free-market anarchism," but lately "market anarchism" has been used by some people as shorthand, especially on the internet. Operation Spooner ( talk) 16:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Free-market anarchism is a synonym of anarcho-capitalism, as Rothbard used, so why won't we redirect? There is only one kind of market anarchism: anarcho-capitalism. Mutualism and geoanarchism has a partial mix of collectivist concepts.
The word market, is shorthand for the word free market, according to dictionaries. [3]
Some do not consider mutualists and geoanarchists market-anarchists. These are do not have "free" markets because mutualists have "possession" regulations and geoanarchists have land regulations. They are not pure socialist nor market, but mix of both. It is similar to the anarchist equivalent to a mixed economy. They advocate socialist roads and regulations.
Like in a political chart, socialists are left and capitalists are right. Similarily, socialist anarchists are left and anarcho-capitalists are right. Mutualism and geoanarchism are located in the middle of the spectrum. Therefore, the logical method is to uncategorize these two articles, since a "mixed economy" is not as far right in the spectrum as capitalism is.
Agorism is not a system. Agorism is the practice of using counter-economics to acheivve an anarcho-capitalist society. So all agorists are anarcho-capitalists, according to Samuel Edward Konkin II and some other left-Rothbardians. Even that agorism is a "kind" of anarcho-capitalism, agorism should not be included in the anarcho-capitalism article. So why should agorism included in this article? 71.175.31.106 ( talk) 02:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The pages that are not influenced by Wikipedia are mostly blog and forum pages, which are not good sources. I don't see any relevent sources suggesting that mutualism is a kind of market anarchism. Here's the link
So the best thing is to remove the word mutualism in this article.
One other thing: Voluntaryists endorse market anarchism, but it is not a subset of market anarchism. Similarily, agorists just endorse this. Why are not agorists mentioned in the anarcho-capitalism article? All agorists are anarcho-capitalists.
The content of this article should be moved to anarchism and Anarchist schools of thought.
71.175.31.106 ( talk) 20:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's move to anarcho-capitalism. The other article explains Molinari, Tucker, Rothbard and David Friedman much more thoroughly and inclusively. The other article contains everything in this article except agorism and the belief in a corrupt state. Lockean homesteading, the non-aggression axiom, deontology and consequentalism, and all the other info are included there. 71.175.31.106 ( talk) 00:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
[5] Here you can see a didactical exposition of free market anarchismS, write by a collaborator of Mises Institute, in there free market anarchism is anarcho-capitalism, mutualism and agorism, all three. --
190.154.162.130 (
talk)
21:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, let's please re-direct to anarcho-capitalism. This is the first I've ever heard it referred to as "free market anarchism." Aldrich Hanssen ( talk) 14:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Let us move it to anarcho-capitalism. They are synonymous. Madhava 1947 ( talk) 23:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I totally disagree. Free market anarchism is not only anarchocapitalism, but also mutualism (anticapitalist free market anarchism), you also can't describe nineteenth century individualist free market anarchists as anarchocapitalists, but only put them in the free market anarchism category. If we will merge this article with anarchocapitalism - we would claim that mutualism isn't free market anarchism (clearly it is free market anarchism and anticapitalism). So, I just can't agree with total absurdity.-- Kregus ( talk) 13:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Symbol |
Logic |
Results |
Search term |
A |
(+ "free market anarchism only" + both) + "market anarchism only" | 20,200 | "market anarchism" |
B |
(+ "free market anarchism only" + both) -
"market anarchism only" |
11,200 | "free market anarchism" |
C |
- "free market anarchism only" - both + "market
anarchism only" |
2,170 | "market anarchism" -"free market anarchism" |
Then solve the equation:
A + B + C = 20,200
A + B - C = 11,200
-A - B + C = 2,170
Answers: {}
both is embedded in fm and m.
We have to first solve fm and m without both.
m without both is C.
Notice B and C are reciprocals.
But A is not equal to B + C.
Symbol |
Logic |
Results |
Method |
D |
+ "free market anarchism only" - both + "market anarchism only" | ||
E |
+ "free market anarchism only" - both - "market anarchism only" | 9,000 | A - B |
F |
- "free market anarchism only" + both + "market anarchism only" | ||
G |
- "free market anarchism only" + both - "market anarchism only" | ||
H |
- "free market anarchism only" - both - "market
anarchism only" |
0 |
I agree, and furthermore the fact that one phrase has more hits than another phrase does not mean that it is a more popular phrase for the same concept. I am moving it back as there was no consensus in favour of the move. Skomorokh 02:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
That mathematical analysis stuff above appears to be wrong. Both in Google and Google Books, "free market anarchism" is more common than "market anarchism." Google Books is probably more reliable for parsing reliable sources, btw. (You just search "market anarchism" -"free market anarchism" versus "free market anarchism.") Jadabocho ( talk) 05:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
The leading section referred market anarchism as a form of individualist anarchism. Another section claimed mutualism as a form of market anarchism. However, Wikipedia has no source referring mutualism as a kind of individualist anarchism. While this may hold for some American individualist anarchists influenced by Proudhon, such as Benjamin R. Tucker, it does not hold for Proudhon himself. I think we need to change "mutualists" to "some mutualists." 71.185.65.241 ( talk) 01:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Ever since I have reverted the mutualist and the geolibertarian links, User:Libertatia has reverted the mutualist link back. However, Libertatia re-added the "geolibertarian" link on the see also section. Libertatia's re-addition of "geolibertarianism" also violates the WP:NPOV policies. No sources state "geolibertarianism" as a form of market anarchism, thus suggesting Libertaria's contribution as WP:OR. Even the geolibertarianism article itself has original research as lacks sources. To resolve Libertia's POV-pushing, I will remove the "geolibertarianism" link that he added. 71.185.237.8 ( talk) 17:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
First, the merge discussion (which I myself accidentally go into) - as well as the redirect one - are very old. So is everything else but the last topic. So we need to archive the talk so people can focus on current issues. Hearing no rational dissent, will so so soon. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 00:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Since markets are not synonymous with capitalism, nor mutually exclusive from socialism, why is it that the work of Proudhon - which has been around since the mid 19th century - conspicuously absent through all this talk about Rothbard - whose views are generally rejected by the anarchist mainstream as non-anarchist, for much the same reasons he had previously rejected the label himself.
Nothing here about worker cooperatives? Real-world examples of workplace anarchy in the marketplace? The idea of market anarchism has been around for a while, hasn't it? Why only the capitalist angle?
Finx ( talk) 11:17, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree, this article can use some work.
Especially considering it contains claims such as "The term (Market Anarchism) describes the type of anarchy proposed by anarcho-capitalism."
68.84.235.198 ( talk) 20:34, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
This article is basically a smaller version of the article "anarchocapitalism". I don´t even see something that could be taken from here that is not already being said there. It even says "The term describes the type of anarchy proposed by anarcho-capitalism and the philosophies that prefigurated it. [1]" so as to make it really pointless for it to be a different article. On the introduction of the article "anarchocapitalism", it should simply say that "free market anarchism" is another way of saying "anarchocapitalism" -- Eduen ( talk) 05:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
The "material" here is the same as the article "anarchocapitalism". It doesn´t matter which article was written first, the theorists, influences and "originators" of both "anarchocapitalism" and "free market anarchism" are the same ones as anyone can check in both articles, Rothbard, De molinari, USA "Boston anarchists". The content of both positions also are the same as has been said before and can be checked by anyone so no one can say that "both ideologies are just similar but came from different sources". If you can point out a single thing that is different here from "anarchocapitalism" maybe we could start a discussion but I really don´t see anything different except the title. As anyone can go and check WP:MERGE this article is a clear case in which there exists "unnecessary duplication of content, significant overlap with the topic of another page, and minimal content that could be covered in or requires the context of a page on a broader topic". What I propose is redirection to the bigger, more detailed article.-- Eduen ( talk) 00:36, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
This might be something similar to "libertarian communism" and "anarcho-communism". 2 different ways for saying the same thing and in all wikipedias both are one article and if one writes "libertarian communism" one gets the anarcho-communism article. As i check the "anarcho-capitalism" article, it even begins this way: "also known as “libertarian anarchy” or “market anarchism” or “free market anarchism”. So as there are not separate "libertarian communism" and "anarcho-communism" articles, there shouldn´t be separate "free market anarchism" and "anarchocapitalism" articles. They are not "different flavours" really.-- Eduen ( talk) 02:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
The "free market anarchism" entry quite clearly covers more than just "anarcho-capitalism." The waters are muddied by the fact that there is discussion of American individualist anarchism on the "anarcho-capitalism" page, but only as an influence on the development of anarcho-capitalism. The distinction between market-friendly anarchism and market-unfriendly anarchism is significant enough to warrant this article, just as the differences between "anarcho-capitalism" and other market-friendly forms of anarchism are significant enough to warrant separate articles. There is no particularly reason for this article to do much more than list the various varieties of market-friendly anarchism, and there is certainly no reason for the "anarcho-capitalism" article to contain a separate discussion of Tucker and Spooner, or any of the sources prior to the explicitly "anarcho-capitalist" school. Bring the individual articles up to standards and the problem goes away. Libertatia ( talk) 21:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Tucker and Spooner are well dealt with in both the individualist anarchism and individualist anarchism in the United States articles. The fact is that the "anarchocapitalism" article itself states that it is also known as "free market anarchism" and "market anarchism".
"The distinction between market-friendly anarchism and market-unfriendly anarchism is significant enough to warrant this article, just as the differences between "anarcho-capitalism" and other market-friendly forms of anarchism are significant enough to warrant separate articles."
Well, there is the article called "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism" which deals with that discussion and it is rather long and detailed. That article focuses on the exact issue of "The distinction between market-friendly anarchism and market-unfriendly anarchism".
And "the differences between "anarcho-capitalism" and other market-friendly forms of anarchism" are pointed out in the individualist anarchism article where it belongs well as I find this sentence: "19th century individualist anarchists espoused the labor theory of value. Some believe that the modern movement of anarcho-capitalism is the result of simply removing the labor theory of value from ideas of the 19th century American individualist anarchists". In the "anarchocapitalism" article there is a long section called "Nineteenth century individualist anarchism in the United States" on that same issue.
And so the existence of that section on the article "anarcho-capitalism" mainly covers this differentiation you think is needed. To my taste that section is overtly long and at times it goes off topic but nevertheless covers this well.-- Eduen ( talk) 19:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
User Tamfang before has suggested "if we must choose one title or the other this one is preferable". So lets do that as it happens that anyway "anarchocapitalism" and "free market anarchism" appear to be synomymous so it really doesn´t matter in the end. What cannot stay is one article that begins this way "Anarcho-capitalism (also known as “libertarian anarchy or “market anarchism” or “free market anarchism)" and another article which is called "free market anarchism" (!) . On top the article "anarchocapitalism" when it begins saying it is the same thing as "free market anarchism" provides a direct link to "free market anarchism". This is obviously just absurd.-- Eduen ( talk) 07:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
well, I am not an expert on "anarchocapitalism" but the reference at the beginning supports "anarchocapitalism" and "free market anarchism" being the same thing and both articles have the same content, the same protagonists but of course "anarchocapitalism" is more detailed. I don´t know who will see them as different and so references for that will be needed but as it stands now they are synomymous just like "libertarian communism" and "anarchocomunism". And so I don´t know if it was you but i checked on the article "anarchocapitalism" and someone tried to put up a banner about the merge and they took it out and seems without much explanation.-- Eduen ( talk) 20:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Mutualism is free-market anarchism, but isn't anarcho-capitalism.--
Msnake (
talk)
07:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I oppose the merger: Anarcho-capitalists want a free market for everything, while free-market anarchists want a free market for the use of force (police, military, courts). You could be a free market anarchist and also have an egalitarian view on natural resources. Byelf2007 ( talk) 26 August 2011
As a market anarchist I absolutely oppose the merger if this article is put under anarcho capitalism, not vice versa. I think anarcho capitalists actually want a free market, do strive for stateless society, bot often border on Voluntaryism (voluntary government or social contracts) whereas market anarchists tend away from social contracts and voluntary government beyond the individual. I also think anarcho capitalism is essentially a misnamed type of socialism, as Brad Spangler has pointed out, and is simply a school of thought with an identity crisis due to the redefinition of words in the last century like "markets" and "socialism". In this way, anarcho capitalism is a form of anarchism, but is distinct from market anarchism generally (the larger category is market anarchism, and anarcho capitalists fall under it as a niche). That being said, it's not necessary to be against property in land or in favor of cooperative worker situations to be a market anarchist as opposed to an anarcho capitalist. The differnce is what one would choose to associate with. For example, both would favor panarchist synthesis in organization and economics...but the AnCaps would prefer to associate with capital per se, whereas market anarchists may choose to associate with other forms of exchange (gift economics for instance). Whether or not market anarchists are "propertarians" is irrelelvant. It's also irrelevant whether they choose to partake in cooperatives. They may, or may not; both types exist. The same isn't true for the subset niche AnCaps, who are decidedly for property and decidedly against cooperatives. If a merge is done, it would have to be putting AnCaps under this article as a subset, not the other way around, and definately not eliminating market anarchism altogether. In the end, it's my opinion as a non-AnCap, but a full fledged market anarchist, that both are actually a form of market socialism. AnCaps are just very clumsily named. They should really do away with the name and call themselves something more accurate. I mean, how many capitalists do you know that oppose corporate personhood and say in the absence of a state there would exist no corporations? This is exactly what nearly every AnCap I've ever met (who is worth any intellectual weight) says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.164.21 ( talk) 08:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
This is all a bit ridiculous. I would just like to remind everyone that "anarcho-capitalism" is rejected as a form of anarchism, by the anarchist mainstream, for obvious reasons: employer/employee relationship, workplace hierarchy. So, as best I can tell, none of this article talks about market anarchism, which is a very real thing and can be read about, for example, in the article on Proudhon. It predates Marxism. Even this article existing, without clarifying this history, is a gross misrepresentation of the history, etymology and the facts surrounding anarchism and markets. In my opinion, it either needs to be merged or rewritten to explain the divide between traditional anarchism, "anarcho-capitalism" and markets. Finx ( talk) 07:55, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
I support the merge! MeUser42 ( talk) 07:27, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
People seem to forget that offline, the most popular strain of anarchism that utilizes free markets is still Mutualism, an anti-capitalist ideology. This article does not reflect that at all because it is swarmed by "internet activist" anarcho-capitalists and other capitalist related "anarchists".-- Sharangir ( talk) 13:12, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Part of the problem is conflicting definitions of capitalism (and differing degrees of awareness of the statist taint in Actually Existing Capitalism). Another difference, perhaps, is that "mainstream" anarchists would (if I understand right) forbid wage labor, while an-caps would neither ban it nor insist on it but greet its natural demise – as obstacles to entrepreneurship are broken down – with a smile. — Tamfang ( talk) 02:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Just to be clear, anarchism (the way that word had always been used until the 70s in America anyway), is just as opposed to fantasy, "free-market" capitalism as Actually-Existing Capitalism. This can be seen again and again throughout anarchist history, even in the works of individualists like Tucker and Spooner, who were both explicitly socialists, despite having been kind of subverted by the right wing laissez faire types and the highly vocal new strain of internet-"anarchists" coming from Rothbard, Mises and other neoliberal influences. This article is really quite ridiculous, and should be merged, deleted or renamed if we're going to pretend to have any regard for history or just general intellectual integrity. Finx ( talk) 22:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Rothbardanswer,
I will go through this new introduction point by point, including some older unresolved issues.
"Libertarian anarchism" is redundant. 'Libertarian', 'libertarian socialist' and 'libertarian communist' had been used interchangeably with 'anarchist' for over 150 years.
"Propertarian anarchism" implies advocacy for private property, which applies exclusively to anarcho-capitalists, while practically all other anarchists see it as an astonishing contradiction in terms, considering that the anarchist movement had been founded on denouncing private property and capitalist ownership. See " Property is Theft!"
This is slightly less absurd than saying "all" as in the previous draft. Still, what goods? What services? What activities? The provision most of these in just about any feasible society has nothing to do with market agreements or the state. Serving thanksgiving dinner provides goods; pressing the button in an elevator for someone is a service; a promise to return a pencil is a verbal contract; brushing your teeth is an activity. The idea is probably that market anarchists want to maximize the role of markets in the economy, but this statement is either wrong or totally meaningless.
There is no need for scare quotes. Market anarchism is the title.
POV pushing. This is written to sound like libertarianism and socialism are somehow mutually exclusive. First of all, libertarian has meant socialist everywhere in the world ever since an anarchist communist named Joseph Déjacque first published a periodical called 'Le Libertaire' in 1861. That's where it comes from. Or to quote 'paleolibertarian' (?!) Rothbard:
Anarchists (libertarians) rejected capitalist ownership for the same reasons they rejected the state. They denounced bosses and owners just the same way they denounced autocrats and career politicians, seeing them as workplace rulers.
Also, I don't know what "quasi-socialist" means. Do you have a reference for that? See the section "Tucker and Spooner were explicitly socialists" above. Again, they denounced wage labor, adhered to the labor theory of value, and believed workers should own and control their workplaces. In other words, they believed that the means of productions should be socially owned, considered themselves part of the socialist movement and were considered socialists by everyone else. What more do you need? This is yet more POV-pushing.
The borderline-religious idea that property is somehow a natural right should not just be casually thrown in like it's basic and uncontroversial. Classical liberals like Jefferson thought it was plain ridiculous, for example. And I'm not even touching anarchism, which was far more radical almost without exception. To quote Jefferson:
If you want to throw 'natural rights' around like confetti in an introduction, explain what natural rights means to Rothbard and others, because it's certainly not what natural rights are to everyone else. Continuing,
As opposed to all those other shitty-no-good anarchists who don't really want a free market, right?
I don't know where the dividing line is here, because it isn't clear from the sentence structure, but it's basically anarcho-capitalists vs. 'everyone else.' Just to rehash, mutualism is an anti-capitalist ideology, and anarcho-syndicalism is not inherently anti-market. This should be clear in the introduction.
Who mentioned a legal system and how does that fit into this?
I'm reverting the first paragraph and editing the second to make a clear distinction between anarchist socialists and advocates for capitalism. It's really getting tiresome to parse these every time someone wants to appropriate individualist anarchists for the ancap camp.
Here is a good and lengthy, sourced explanation on why this should not be done so casually, beyond citing influences. Of particular note, since Lysander Spooner seems to be the fallback when other prominent anarchists are shown to be clearly socialists:
This is supposed to be an encyclopedic article, not an advertisement for Murray Rothbard.
Finx ( talk) 05:07, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Should a more specific definition of free market anarchism be given in the article? For example, as defined by Roderick Long here, "Market Anarchism is the doctrine that the legislative, adjudicative, and protective functions unjustly and inefficiently monopolised by the coercive State should be entirely turned over to the voluntary, consensual forces of market society." Currently the article says that free-market anarchism "is an economic and political philosophy which holds that the provision of goods, services, contracts and activities should take place primarily through voluntary market agreements rather than the state." This definition seems rather poor, as the inclusion of the word "primarily" seems to make some versions of statism compatible with free-market anarchism (as defined in this way). It also just doesn't seem to be worded well overall. Is it grammatically correct to say "the provision of... contracts and activities..."? Someone please fix this. I recommend adding Roderick Long's definition as an improvement. Thanks. 64.223.151.21 ( talk) 07:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree completely. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Free-market_anarchism&oldid=527162677 this is an old version. The continual political edits turn this into a bit of a patchwork mess. Maybe you could add a praxeological emphasis and properly distinguish between the extant "anarchy of the market" (as Bolsheviks called it in disdain) that free market anarchism wants to elaborate entirely and the abstract reactionary concept of "market" socialism. Free market anarchism is primarily an anarcho-capitalist/voluntarist movement that developed from classical liberal laissez faire and individualist anarchism. I think Mutualism then comes after voluntarism (even though I like Long). I think the reactionary concept of "market socialism" either deserves its own section with criticism if it warrants space at all. (it has its own page already). Maybe add Hoppe's private law stuff :) Rothbardanswer ( talk) 18:06, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I've looked at this entire talk page and in the space of less than a week you've filled it with your own political opinions. I'm not going to read it all but it has to be said the purpose of a wiki article is to document an idea. In this case it's the history of the development of free market anarchism. It doesn't matter if you object to the way dead philosophers and economists use the word or how popular their ideas became. If you're offended by the article then don't read it. Stop badgering everyone to change their cited contributions to an article THAT IS about something you seem to dislike. Wikipedia isn't hear to definition things out of existence.
If you continue to be so blatantly non-neutral and openly talk about vandalising text you dislike I'll have to report you.
Rothbardanswer (
talk)
09:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I was warned TWICE for edit warring on the liberalism page. That was before I even knew what edit warring was! Sourced material was being routinely deleted by people pushing a political point. The actual issue was over the inclusion of Spanish Scholastics. That's it. It was another technical issue that offended the political sensibilities of an editor. Why don't you show me one paragraph you've written where you aren't just going on and on passing judgment and criticising philosophers you dislike. It's irrelevant. You don't have any valid criticisms of the contributions other than your own politics. Show me one paragraph where you demonstrate knowledge of what free market anarchy even is. Your main source was a youtube video. I watched it. It outlined anarcho-capitalism! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rothbardanswer ( talk • contribs) 14:46, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Every criticism you make in these talk pages is a criticism of the philosophy or economic theory (that you don't get) expressed by primary sources. Your contribution to the lead was to delete cited contributions without explanation and add "broadly" and pass judgment and push your own political opinion that free market anarchism is only "purportedly" stateless. I shouldn't have to explain political philosophy to you but individualism and libertarianism aren't egalitarian movements. That's why its called libertarian. People are free to be different in a stateless society. Here's some texts you deleted: [6], [7], [8]. You've actually ruined the lead. This isn't an article on socialism. If you want to understand what free market anarchism is you can read any of the intellectual literature from before the fall of the soviet union. Read Einstein's "shy socialism". He talks about rejecting the "anarchy of the market". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rothbardanswer ( talk • contribs) 15:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Does this include Kevin Carson and Roderick Long? Both, I think, describe themselves as anti-capitalist, using the term capitalism as Marx did: a system of political privileges to existing firms, at the expense of both labor and competition. Opposition to capitalism in this sense does not require collective ownership. — Tamfang ( talk) 05:37, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
The content of the article is a description of anarcho-capitalism with another terms, or what political history use to expose as examples of libertarian anarchism before libertarian anarchism. This last is an extemporaneous interpretation from modern intelectuals and is enough for the section of "precursors" in the article about anarcho-capitalism or by extension for the interpretations about what was historical free-market anarcho-individualism (now defunct) in the article about anarcho-individualism. This separated article "free-market anarchism" is almost primary source and haven't enough enciclopedical relevance, and the very defenses of its permanence are especulations from some Wikipedia editors not reducted to expose several/reliable sources.
Another defenses of this separated article using sources of isolated authors aren't sequent to the relevance politics of Wikipedia and therefore should no longer be used. That's only a good idea for write in the Wikipedia article of the isolated author about his/her use of of the term "free-market anarchism", no more. Language is a social practice, remember that.
The second solution I propose is to make this entrance to a disambiguation page, citing in first place the primarily social use of the expression "free-market anarchism" that refers to anarcho-capitalism and convergent ideas. I suposse the other uses in the list of the disambiguation page could be a matter of another discussion. -- Sageo ( talk) 00:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
This article misrepresents two anarchist individualists, Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner, as capitalists. In actuality, their views closely follow those of Proudhon and even older, anti-capitalist classical liberal strains of thought, as described in this documentary on American anarchism and thoroughly detailed in the Anarchist FAQ. They denounced wage labor, adhered to the labor theory of value, and believed workers should own and control their own means of production, which is the core tenet of socialism. This is a grossly misinformed account of people who considered themselves part of the socialist movement, and I am correcting it, if this article is not to be renamed, merged or deleted, as in my opinion it should be. Finx ( talk) 22:17, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Adding the following references, on how both Tucker and Spooner were anti-capitalists because this keeps creeping up again and again:
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help)Honestly hope that will be the end of that, because I'm getting tired of having to explain that anarchism has always been a socialist movement. Finx ( talk) 23:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
This article is an essay, check Wikipedia:Original research. An article in Wikipedia couldn't be a collection of opinions of the wikipedians themselves. This is not the same case of merge petition, I'm saying that this content is an essay. There aren't reliable sources that support the definitions and taxonomies that this article shows. Even, this article induces to think the term "market anarchism" is a historical one when it is contemporary. -- Sageo ( talk) 04:35, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
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help)By the way "market anarchism" isn't a "theory" - just like "market socialism" isn't a "theory"; it's a compendium of anarchist ideas advocating market systems. If you're finished retaliating for me removing your 'market anarchism' -> 'anarcho-capitalism' redirect, please remove the templates at your convenience, unless you want to provide some examples of actual OR/PS/etc. Finx ( talk) 06:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, what we can see its that the use of the term haven't many years, few decades, it's not a term used by those ancient authors to refers themselves or their theories. (Only two) references mention the use of the term to refers to 19º century american anarcho-individualism, the last explain ancient american anarcho-individualism without using the term. The others sources only mention the word market - and been the word market so common, that is not a relevant proof of the use of the term. Check again "original Research" policies and the announce of the template: "This article or section may contain previously unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources." That is the problem. Also we have to check the uses of the term, as synonymous of or refering to anarcho-capitalism:
According to free-market anarchism, all the fundamental institutions necessary for the market to function—money, police protection, and even justice—would themselves be "for sale on the market." Democracy, Markets, and the Legal Order: Notes on the Nature of Politics in a Radically Liberal Society (1993) Cambridge Journal
The Production of Security ... was the first presentation ... of what is now called "anarcho-capitalism" or "free-market anarchism. Murray Rothbard (1977) The oldest use I find Prologue to The Porduction of Security of Gustave de Molinari
Anarchism advocates the dissolution of the State into social and market arrangements, and these arrangements are far more flexible and less predictable than political institutions. Society without a State, Rothbard (1975) I show this source only to contextualize the age when concepts "anarchism" and "market" began to be together, in this paper even "anarchism" is used as a synonymous of "anarcho-capitalism".
This position is generally know as "market anarchism" or "anarcho-capitalism". Roderick Long and Tibor Machan (2007), book of debate, Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of a Free Country?
I shall maintain, one, that anarcho-capitalism and minarchism are logically incompatible. And then This implies free-market anarchism, and thus a rejection of minarchism, since with the right of secession. Walter Block (2007). A paper in response of the book, where "free-market anarchism" is an alternative term for "anarcho-capitalism".
What we have to the date, is that "free-market anarchism" is a not so old term. Many times had been used as synonymous of anarcho-capitalism, probably from the 1970's. And other sources, even more recent (10 years ago like it seems), used retrospectively that term to refers the ancient liberal american anarcho-individualism. For the date, what we have is a very recent synonymous for two historically separated political streams. So I think the redirection is not an option, but a disambiguation page to anarcho-capitalism and to american 19º centtury liberal anarcho-individualism. Maybe should begins like this, "Free-market anarchism is a contemporary political term used to refers:". We haven't sources for more that this.-- Sageo ( talk) 19:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
The article would be improved by additional WP:RS discussion of Nozick's view, stated in the criticism section. Nozick's view is the consensus view today across the ordinary spectrum of thought from left to right. SPECIFICO talk 22:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
There is already an article on anarchist economics. It covers a broad spectrum of ideas, including those of marginal, self-labeled anarchists like anarcho-capitalists. I propose that this article be deleted, to end the constant bickering and relentless attempts at appropriation of the term, and redirected to "anarchist economics" after expanding some of its market-related topics with what can be salvaged from this article. Finx ( talk) 15:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
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link)People are free to believe whatever they want, and Wikipedia certainly should not say free market anarchism is a good or bad political system. However, it is important to note the fact that virtually no academic philosophers or economists endorse this system, making it a fringe economic theory and fringe political philosophy. I recommend someone finds an RS which documents these facts. (I will surely do it eventually if no one else is up to the task.) Thanks! Steeletrap ( talk) 00:46, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
After read both interventions in upper section I believe the less interpretative description of the uses B and C that I previously indicate;
This ref reads: The generic term “market anarchism” is sometimes used to include both anarcho-capitalism and the market-friendly varieties of more traditional individualist anarchism. That is a the estructure of a neutral and sourced redaction. We can adapt it with the information we have, even those that use it as a synonymous (check past references in this talk page), and all the sourced uses (avoiding the synthesis in talk page). So, lets do betters line, my time:
(Disambiguation)
Free-market anarchism is a political term used in diferent forms:
-- Sageo ( talk) 23:12, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
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I propose merging Left-wing market anarchism into Free-market anarchism. I think there is a huge overlap and repetition in the former article, and virtually all free-market anarchists were/are left-wing, thus we create a bit of a pleonasm. I acknowledge that some anarcho-capitalists refer to themselves as "free-market anarchists", but this can be briefly addressed in the article.
@ Davide King, Bobfrombrockley, and Des Vallee: Pinging main recent contributors. Please help pinging other relevant editors. BeŻet ( talk) 13:41, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
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czar
16:48, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
I've now performed a merge as it has unanimous support. I also made some bold changes, which I'm happy to discuss. BeŻet ( talk) 13:01, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Socialist individualist anarchists do oppose usury and ownership of the means of production beyond what can be worked by the individual. What I added was simply showing the differences between the two types. -- AFA 05:50, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I put a disputed POV and factual accuracy tag, because it makes the claim that "market anarchism" comes from Prouhdon, etc, and makes it look like it's only used "sometimes" for anarcho-capitalism. The claims are not sourced at all. I'm not aware of Proudon or others of his kind using the term. RJII 18:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
This article does not add much that is not explained better elsewhere. I propose this be a disambiguation page linking to anarcho-capitalism, mutualism and agorism, or that it be merged into one of these. Any opinions? 20:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is this a seperate article when it seems to be the same as Anarcho-capitalism? Lord Metroid 20:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I support the merge.-- Eduen ( talk) 07:01, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I would actually prefer a merge of anarcho-capitalism into free-market anarchism because the word capitalism is usually associated with statism and corporatism and is identified with protectionism and limited third party liability. ( Libertaar ( talk) 11:56, 11 July 2010 (UTC)).
The anarcho-capitalism article is obviously more popular. It is more edited, more visited, and more discussed. The term also enjoys usage at well-respected academic institutions (instead of free-market anarchism) such as the Mises Institute and Cato Institute. I know this because I have attended conferences with leading scholars from these places. Anarcho-capitalism is simply more favored demographically. I support this change. BennyQuixote ( talk) 17:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree that Mutualism SHOULD be considered as a type of market anarchism, but are there any sources for it being called this? If not, then we can't include it in the article because that would be "original research." Anarcho-capitalism 20:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The Molinari Institute website defines market anarchism like this: "Market Anarchism is the doctrine that the legislative, adjudicative, and protective functions unjustly and inefficiently monopolised by the coercive State should be entirely turned over to the voluntary, consensual forces of market society." That rules out Proudhon, because he never advocate privately-funded security functions. But, that's just a website. I'm looking for a scholarly definition of market anarchism. Anarcho-capitalism 20:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
What's the difference between individualist anarchism, anarcho-capitalism, and market anarchism? Fephisto 06:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Given (1) The term "free market" is used to denote non-coerced and non-fraudulent exchange of goods and services and (2) Market anarchism (or free-market anarchism) is a label commonly used to describe a number of individualist anarchist philosophies that assert that all the institutions necessary for the function of a free market, such as money, police, and courts, should be provided by the market itself, wouldn't, e.g., anarcho-communism meet that definition of market anarchism? Jacob Haller 05:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
(Since this came up on the article page). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jacob Haller ( talk • contribs) 18:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
Yes. Proudhon did not advocate market provided defense. He defined anarchy as "a form of government or constitution in which public and private consciousness, formed through the development of science and law, is alone sufficient to maintain order and guarantee all liberties. In it, as a consequence, the institutions of the police, preventive and repressive methods, officialdom, taxation, etc., are reduced to a minimum." Defense would be provided by a miniarchist system funded by taxation. I believe he thought that defense would become less needed over time, over hundreds of years as people evolve, until there would be no need for defense at all. You may be tempted to change the definition of market anarchism just to fit Proudhon in but I suggest you don't. The definition has a source. All true market anarchists are market anarchists because of opposition to taxation. They like the protections services but want it to be funded voluntarily. That's the essence of market anarchism. Crashola 19:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Concerning Josiah Warren, he just advocated that land by sold at cost in order to be "equitable." He did not espouse the idea of what you call "possession." Crashola 20:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
As for "Intellectual Property," I know that most mutualists (including Proudhon, Tucker, and Carson) and most agorists (including Long) among others (Rothbard) have opposed IP. Spooner favored IP. Jacob Haller 23:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I know that many propertarians have endorsed abandonment standards. So many versions of Locke's system, as well as of Proudhon's system, regard long-term non-use as non-ownership. He may be persona non grata on wikipedia, but Bill Orton's "stickiness" continuum comes to mind. Jacob Haller 23:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC) In addition, An Anarchist FAQ B.3.1, goes into social-anarchist interpretations of possession. Between social anarchists and mutualists, that's most libertarian socialists. Jacob Haller 23:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You insist on mentioning the Lockean proviso. Anarcho-capitalists don't accept it. What market anarchists do? Crashola 01:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Since most Lockeans think you lose property rights if you “abandon” a piece of property, one could say the fundamental difference between mutualists and Lockeans is a question of what counts as abandonment (a point Kevin Carson has made). If you look at it that way, it’s not obvious that mutualists are closer to Georgists than to Lockeans.
- Locke had two different provisos - one was "enough and as good" and the other was the "spoilage" proviso...geoists follow the "enough and as good" proviso and mutualists follow the "spoilage" proviso because the produce left rotting in the field free for gleaners to take for personal consumption without violating property rights, is considered abandoned by the farmer. BeGreener 14:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would think that mutualist opposition to allowing individuals to continue to own land that they're not using would be based in the "enough and as good" idea. It's not the crop rotting that they're concerned about but the land itself. Crashola 22:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- "enough and as good" is defined by the appearance of economic rent - why would I pay someone to locate where they are if the had left (subjectively determined) enough and as good for me to freely homestead? this is the basis of the geoist position...whereas why would I occupy and use more land than I could til and harvest if what is left in the field was free for gleaners to appropriate without violating property rights? BeGreener 02:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Among those who accept some version of private ownership, another difference is whether the possibility of common ownership is also endorsed. David Schmidtz, Carlton Hobbs, Randall Holcombe and I have all defended the position that there could and should be cases of legitimate common ownership in a libertarian society. Most Rothbardians reject this view. (I don’t mean that they reject the possibility of contractually-formed partnerships and the like, but they do tend to reject the idea of less explicit and less rigidly bounded forms of common ownership.)
I deleted the whole section, since nothing at all was sourced. How about only adding information one bit at a time that is sourced instead of just speculating about things? Crashola 01:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I think "free market anarchism" is the more common name for this in books and articles instead of just "market anarchism." Change the title of the article? Operation Spooner 19:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to cover exactly the same things (Tucker, AnCap, etc.) as Individualist anarchism. If it differs in any respect it's in the POV presented - and POV forks should be avoided. Is there a good reason not to redirect? Bacchiad 14:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this section adds much of anything. It is essentially one person stating his vague perceptions as fact. The two links to Issues in Anarchism and Political Framing are helpful, though. Fritter ( talk) 23:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyone have a source for mutualism being "market anarchism?" It doesn't appear to fit the sourced definitions. Just because a form of anarchism supports markets, I don't believe that makes it market anarchism. Collectivist Anarchism (Bakunin) supports markets, but I don't think that is considered to be market anarchism. Operation Spooner ( talk) 19:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Never mind. I altered the wording to say "some mutualists" instead of mutualism as a whole. Operation Spooner ( talk) 20:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
"Free-market anarchism" seems to be the more popular name. If you do a Google search to test for the term "market anarchism" that doesn't have the "free" in front of it like this: ""market anarchism" -"free-market anarchism" -Wikipedia"" you get 1530 hits. When you test for "free-market anarchism" like this: ""free-market anarchism" -Wikipedia"" you get 6890 hits. My observation has been that the original term is "free-market anarchism," but lately "market anarchism" has been used by some people as shorthand, especially on the internet. Operation Spooner ( talk) 16:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Free-market anarchism is a synonym of anarcho-capitalism, as Rothbard used, so why won't we redirect? There is only one kind of market anarchism: anarcho-capitalism. Mutualism and geoanarchism has a partial mix of collectivist concepts.
The word market, is shorthand for the word free market, according to dictionaries. [3]
Some do not consider mutualists and geoanarchists market-anarchists. These are do not have "free" markets because mutualists have "possession" regulations and geoanarchists have land regulations. They are not pure socialist nor market, but mix of both. It is similar to the anarchist equivalent to a mixed economy. They advocate socialist roads and regulations.
Like in a political chart, socialists are left and capitalists are right. Similarily, socialist anarchists are left and anarcho-capitalists are right. Mutualism and geoanarchism are located in the middle of the spectrum. Therefore, the logical method is to uncategorize these two articles, since a "mixed economy" is not as far right in the spectrum as capitalism is.
Agorism is not a system. Agorism is the practice of using counter-economics to acheivve an anarcho-capitalist society. So all agorists are anarcho-capitalists, according to Samuel Edward Konkin II and some other left-Rothbardians. Even that agorism is a "kind" of anarcho-capitalism, agorism should not be included in the anarcho-capitalism article. So why should agorism included in this article? 71.175.31.106 ( talk) 02:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The pages that are not influenced by Wikipedia are mostly blog and forum pages, which are not good sources. I don't see any relevent sources suggesting that mutualism is a kind of market anarchism. Here's the link
So the best thing is to remove the word mutualism in this article.
One other thing: Voluntaryists endorse market anarchism, but it is not a subset of market anarchism. Similarily, agorists just endorse this. Why are not agorists mentioned in the anarcho-capitalism article? All agorists are anarcho-capitalists.
The content of this article should be moved to anarchism and Anarchist schools of thought.
71.175.31.106 ( talk) 20:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's move to anarcho-capitalism. The other article explains Molinari, Tucker, Rothbard and David Friedman much more thoroughly and inclusively. The other article contains everything in this article except agorism and the belief in a corrupt state. Lockean homesteading, the non-aggression axiom, deontology and consequentalism, and all the other info are included there. 71.175.31.106 ( talk) 00:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
[5] Here you can see a didactical exposition of free market anarchismS, write by a collaborator of Mises Institute, in there free market anarchism is anarcho-capitalism, mutualism and agorism, all three. --
190.154.162.130 (
talk)
21:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, let's please re-direct to anarcho-capitalism. This is the first I've ever heard it referred to as "free market anarchism." Aldrich Hanssen ( talk) 14:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Let us move it to anarcho-capitalism. They are synonymous. Madhava 1947 ( talk) 23:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I totally disagree. Free market anarchism is not only anarchocapitalism, but also mutualism (anticapitalist free market anarchism), you also can't describe nineteenth century individualist free market anarchists as anarchocapitalists, but only put them in the free market anarchism category. If we will merge this article with anarchocapitalism - we would claim that mutualism isn't free market anarchism (clearly it is free market anarchism and anticapitalism). So, I just can't agree with total absurdity.-- Kregus ( talk) 13:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Symbol |
Logic |
Results |
Search term |
A |
(+ "free market anarchism only" + both) + "market anarchism only" | 20,200 | "market anarchism" |
B |
(+ "free market anarchism only" + both) -
"market anarchism only" |
11,200 | "free market anarchism" |
C |
- "free market anarchism only" - both + "market
anarchism only" |
2,170 | "market anarchism" -"free market anarchism" |
Then solve the equation:
A + B + C = 20,200
A + B - C = 11,200
-A - B + C = 2,170
Answers: {}
both is embedded in fm and m.
We have to first solve fm and m without both.
m without both is C.
Notice B and C are reciprocals.
But A is not equal to B + C.
Symbol |
Logic |
Results |
Method |
D |
+ "free market anarchism only" - both + "market anarchism only" | ||
E |
+ "free market anarchism only" - both - "market anarchism only" | 9,000 | A - B |
F |
- "free market anarchism only" + both + "market anarchism only" | ||
G |
- "free market anarchism only" + both - "market anarchism only" | ||
H |
- "free market anarchism only" - both - "market
anarchism only" |
0 |
I agree, and furthermore the fact that one phrase has more hits than another phrase does not mean that it is a more popular phrase for the same concept. I am moving it back as there was no consensus in favour of the move. Skomorokh 02:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
That mathematical analysis stuff above appears to be wrong. Both in Google and Google Books, "free market anarchism" is more common than "market anarchism." Google Books is probably more reliable for parsing reliable sources, btw. (You just search "market anarchism" -"free market anarchism" versus "free market anarchism.") Jadabocho ( talk) 05:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
The leading section referred market anarchism as a form of individualist anarchism. Another section claimed mutualism as a form of market anarchism. However, Wikipedia has no source referring mutualism as a kind of individualist anarchism. While this may hold for some American individualist anarchists influenced by Proudhon, such as Benjamin R. Tucker, it does not hold for Proudhon himself. I think we need to change "mutualists" to "some mutualists." 71.185.65.241 ( talk) 01:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Ever since I have reverted the mutualist and the geolibertarian links, User:Libertatia has reverted the mutualist link back. However, Libertatia re-added the "geolibertarian" link on the see also section. Libertatia's re-addition of "geolibertarianism" also violates the WP:NPOV policies. No sources state "geolibertarianism" as a form of market anarchism, thus suggesting Libertaria's contribution as WP:OR. Even the geolibertarianism article itself has original research as lacks sources. To resolve Libertia's POV-pushing, I will remove the "geolibertarianism" link that he added. 71.185.237.8 ( talk) 17:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
First, the merge discussion (which I myself accidentally go into) - as well as the redirect one - are very old. So is everything else but the last topic. So we need to archive the talk so people can focus on current issues. Hearing no rational dissent, will so so soon. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 00:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Since markets are not synonymous with capitalism, nor mutually exclusive from socialism, why is it that the work of Proudhon - which has been around since the mid 19th century - conspicuously absent through all this talk about Rothbard - whose views are generally rejected by the anarchist mainstream as non-anarchist, for much the same reasons he had previously rejected the label himself.
Nothing here about worker cooperatives? Real-world examples of workplace anarchy in the marketplace? The idea of market anarchism has been around for a while, hasn't it? Why only the capitalist angle?
Finx ( talk) 11:17, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree, this article can use some work.
Especially considering it contains claims such as "The term (Market Anarchism) describes the type of anarchy proposed by anarcho-capitalism."
68.84.235.198 ( talk) 20:34, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
This article is basically a smaller version of the article "anarchocapitalism". I don´t even see something that could be taken from here that is not already being said there. It even says "The term describes the type of anarchy proposed by anarcho-capitalism and the philosophies that prefigurated it. [1]" so as to make it really pointless for it to be a different article. On the introduction of the article "anarchocapitalism", it should simply say that "free market anarchism" is another way of saying "anarchocapitalism" -- Eduen ( talk) 05:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
The "material" here is the same as the article "anarchocapitalism". It doesn´t matter which article was written first, the theorists, influences and "originators" of both "anarchocapitalism" and "free market anarchism" are the same ones as anyone can check in both articles, Rothbard, De molinari, USA "Boston anarchists". The content of both positions also are the same as has been said before and can be checked by anyone so no one can say that "both ideologies are just similar but came from different sources". If you can point out a single thing that is different here from "anarchocapitalism" maybe we could start a discussion but I really don´t see anything different except the title. As anyone can go and check WP:MERGE this article is a clear case in which there exists "unnecessary duplication of content, significant overlap with the topic of another page, and minimal content that could be covered in or requires the context of a page on a broader topic". What I propose is redirection to the bigger, more detailed article.-- Eduen ( talk) 00:36, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
This might be something similar to "libertarian communism" and "anarcho-communism". 2 different ways for saying the same thing and in all wikipedias both are one article and if one writes "libertarian communism" one gets the anarcho-communism article. As i check the "anarcho-capitalism" article, it even begins this way: "also known as “libertarian anarchy” or “market anarchism” or “free market anarchism”. So as there are not separate "libertarian communism" and "anarcho-communism" articles, there shouldn´t be separate "free market anarchism" and "anarchocapitalism" articles. They are not "different flavours" really.-- Eduen ( talk) 02:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
The "free market anarchism" entry quite clearly covers more than just "anarcho-capitalism." The waters are muddied by the fact that there is discussion of American individualist anarchism on the "anarcho-capitalism" page, but only as an influence on the development of anarcho-capitalism. The distinction between market-friendly anarchism and market-unfriendly anarchism is significant enough to warrant this article, just as the differences between "anarcho-capitalism" and other market-friendly forms of anarchism are significant enough to warrant separate articles. There is no particularly reason for this article to do much more than list the various varieties of market-friendly anarchism, and there is certainly no reason for the "anarcho-capitalism" article to contain a separate discussion of Tucker and Spooner, or any of the sources prior to the explicitly "anarcho-capitalist" school. Bring the individual articles up to standards and the problem goes away. Libertatia ( talk) 21:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Tucker and Spooner are well dealt with in both the individualist anarchism and individualist anarchism in the United States articles. The fact is that the "anarchocapitalism" article itself states that it is also known as "free market anarchism" and "market anarchism".
"The distinction between market-friendly anarchism and market-unfriendly anarchism is significant enough to warrant this article, just as the differences between "anarcho-capitalism" and other market-friendly forms of anarchism are significant enough to warrant separate articles."
Well, there is the article called "Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism" which deals with that discussion and it is rather long and detailed. That article focuses on the exact issue of "The distinction between market-friendly anarchism and market-unfriendly anarchism".
And "the differences between "anarcho-capitalism" and other market-friendly forms of anarchism" are pointed out in the individualist anarchism article where it belongs well as I find this sentence: "19th century individualist anarchists espoused the labor theory of value. Some believe that the modern movement of anarcho-capitalism is the result of simply removing the labor theory of value from ideas of the 19th century American individualist anarchists". In the "anarchocapitalism" article there is a long section called "Nineteenth century individualist anarchism in the United States" on that same issue.
And so the existence of that section on the article "anarcho-capitalism" mainly covers this differentiation you think is needed. To my taste that section is overtly long and at times it goes off topic but nevertheless covers this well.-- Eduen ( talk) 19:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
User Tamfang before has suggested "if we must choose one title or the other this one is preferable". So lets do that as it happens that anyway "anarchocapitalism" and "free market anarchism" appear to be synomymous so it really doesn´t matter in the end. What cannot stay is one article that begins this way "Anarcho-capitalism (also known as “libertarian anarchy or “market anarchism” or “free market anarchism)" and another article which is called "free market anarchism" (!) . On top the article "anarchocapitalism" when it begins saying it is the same thing as "free market anarchism" provides a direct link to "free market anarchism". This is obviously just absurd.-- Eduen ( talk) 07:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
well, I am not an expert on "anarchocapitalism" but the reference at the beginning supports "anarchocapitalism" and "free market anarchism" being the same thing and both articles have the same content, the same protagonists but of course "anarchocapitalism" is more detailed. I don´t know who will see them as different and so references for that will be needed but as it stands now they are synomymous just like "libertarian communism" and "anarchocomunism". And so I don´t know if it was you but i checked on the article "anarchocapitalism" and someone tried to put up a banner about the merge and they took it out and seems without much explanation.-- Eduen ( talk) 20:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Mutualism is free-market anarchism, but isn't anarcho-capitalism.--
Msnake (
talk)
07:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I oppose the merger: Anarcho-capitalists want a free market for everything, while free-market anarchists want a free market for the use of force (police, military, courts). You could be a free market anarchist and also have an egalitarian view on natural resources. Byelf2007 ( talk) 26 August 2011
As a market anarchist I absolutely oppose the merger if this article is put under anarcho capitalism, not vice versa. I think anarcho capitalists actually want a free market, do strive for stateless society, bot often border on Voluntaryism (voluntary government or social contracts) whereas market anarchists tend away from social contracts and voluntary government beyond the individual. I also think anarcho capitalism is essentially a misnamed type of socialism, as Brad Spangler has pointed out, and is simply a school of thought with an identity crisis due to the redefinition of words in the last century like "markets" and "socialism". In this way, anarcho capitalism is a form of anarchism, but is distinct from market anarchism generally (the larger category is market anarchism, and anarcho capitalists fall under it as a niche). That being said, it's not necessary to be against property in land or in favor of cooperative worker situations to be a market anarchist as opposed to an anarcho capitalist. The differnce is what one would choose to associate with. For example, both would favor panarchist synthesis in organization and economics...but the AnCaps would prefer to associate with capital per se, whereas market anarchists may choose to associate with other forms of exchange (gift economics for instance). Whether or not market anarchists are "propertarians" is irrelelvant. It's also irrelevant whether they choose to partake in cooperatives. They may, or may not; both types exist. The same isn't true for the subset niche AnCaps, who are decidedly for property and decidedly against cooperatives. If a merge is done, it would have to be putting AnCaps under this article as a subset, not the other way around, and definately not eliminating market anarchism altogether. In the end, it's my opinion as a non-AnCap, but a full fledged market anarchist, that both are actually a form of market socialism. AnCaps are just very clumsily named. They should really do away with the name and call themselves something more accurate. I mean, how many capitalists do you know that oppose corporate personhood and say in the absence of a state there would exist no corporations? This is exactly what nearly every AnCap I've ever met (who is worth any intellectual weight) says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.164.21 ( talk) 08:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
This is all a bit ridiculous. I would just like to remind everyone that "anarcho-capitalism" is rejected as a form of anarchism, by the anarchist mainstream, for obvious reasons: employer/employee relationship, workplace hierarchy. So, as best I can tell, none of this article talks about market anarchism, which is a very real thing and can be read about, for example, in the article on Proudhon. It predates Marxism. Even this article existing, without clarifying this history, is a gross misrepresentation of the history, etymology and the facts surrounding anarchism and markets. In my opinion, it either needs to be merged or rewritten to explain the divide between traditional anarchism, "anarcho-capitalism" and markets. Finx ( talk) 07:55, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
I support the merge! MeUser42 ( talk) 07:27, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
People seem to forget that offline, the most popular strain of anarchism that utilizes free markets is still Mutualism, an anti-capitalist ideology. This article does not reflect that at all because it is swarmed by "internet activist" anarcho-capitalists and other capitalist related "anarchists".-- Sharangir ( talk) 13:12, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Part of the problem is conflicting definitions of capitalism (and differing degrees of awareness of the statist taint in Actually Existing Capitalism). Another difference, perhaps, is that "mainstream" anarchists would (if I understand right) forbid wage labor, while an-caps would neither ban it nor insist on it but greet its natural demise – as obstacles to entrepreneurship are broken down – with a smile. — Tamfang ( talk) 02:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Just to be clear, anarchism (the way that word had always been used until the 70s in America anyway), is just as opposed to fantasy, "free-market" capitalism as Actually-Existing Capitalism. This can be seen again and again throughout anarchist history, even in the works of individualists like Tucker and Spooner, who were both explicitly socialists, despite having been kind of subverted by the right wing laissez faire types and the highly vocal new strain of internet-"anarchists" coming from Rothbard, Mises and other neoliberal influences. This article is really quite ridiculous, and should be merged, deleted or renamed if we're going to pretend to have any regard for history or just general intellectual integrity. Finx ( talk) 22:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Rothbardanswer,
I will go through this new introduction point by point, including some older unresolved issues.
"Libertarian anarchism" is redundant. 'Libertarian', 'libertarian socialist' and 'libertarian communist' had been used interchangeably with 'anarchist' for over 150 years.
"Propertarian anarchism" implies advocacy for private property, which applies exclusively to anarcho-capitalists, while practically all other anarchists see it as an astonishing contradiction in terms, considering that the anarchist movement had been founded on denouncing private property and capitalist ownership. See " Property is Theft!"
This is slightly less absurd than saying "all" as in the previous draft. Still, what goods? What services? What activities? The provision most of these in just about any feasible society has nothing to do with market agreements or the state. Serving thanksgiving dinner provides goods; pressing the button in an elevator for someone is a service; a promise to return a pencil is a verbal contract; brushing your teeth is an activity. The idea is probably that market anarchists want to maximize the role of markets in the economy, but this statement is either wrong or totally meaningless.
There is no need for scare quotes. Market anarchism is the title.
POV pushing. This is written to sound like libertarianism and socialism are somehow mutually exclusive. First of all, libertarian has meant socialist everywhere in the world ever since an anarchist communist named Joseph Déjacque first published a periodical called 'Le Libertaire' in 1861. That's where it comes from. Or to quote 'paleolibertarian' (?!) Rothbard:
Anarchists (libertarians) rejected capitalist ownership for the same reasons they rejected the state. They denounced bosses and owners just the same way they denounced autocrats and career politicians, seeing them as workplace rulers.
Also, I don't know what "quasi-socialist" means. Do you have a reference for that? See the section "Tucker and Spooner were explicitly socialists" above. Again, they denounced wage labor, adhered to the labor theory of value, and believed workers should own and control their workplaces. In other words, they believed that the means of productions should be socially owned, considered themselves part of the socialist movement and were considered socialists by everyone else. What more do you need? This is yet more POV-pushing.
The borderline-religious idea that property is somehow a natural right should not just be casually thrown in like it's basic and uncontroversial. Classical liberals like Jefferson thought it was plain ridiculous, for example. And I'm not even touching anarchism, which was far more radical almost without exception. To quote Jefferson:
If you want to throw 'natural rights' around like confetti in an introduction, explain what natural rights means to Rothbard and others, because it's certainly not what natural rights are to everyone else. Continuing,
As opposed to all those other shitty-no-good anarchists who don't really want a free market, right?
I don't know where the dividing line is here, because it isn't clear from the sentence structure, but it's basically anarcho-capitalists vs. 'everyone else.' Just to rehash, mutualism is an anti-capitalist ideology, and anarcho-syndicalism is not inherently anti-market. This should be clear in the introduction.
Who mentioned a legal system and how does that fit into this?
I'm reverting the first paragraph and editing the second to make a clear distinction between anarchist socialists and advocates for capitalism. It's really getting tiresome to parse these every time someone wants to appropriate individualist anarchists for the ancap camp.
Here is a good and lengthy, sourced explanation on why this should not be done so casually, beyond citing influences. Of particular note, since Lysander Spooner seems to be the fallback when other prominent anarchists are shown to be clearly socialists:
This is supposed to be an encyclopedic article, not an advertisement for Murray Rothbard.
Finx ( talk) 05:07, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Should a more specific definition of free market anarchism be given in the article? For example, as defined by Roderick Long here, "Market Anarchism is the doctrine that the legislative, adjudicative, and protective functions unjustly and inefficiently monopolised by the coercive State should be entirely turned over to the voluntary, consensual forces of market society." Currently the article says that free-market anarchism "is an economic and political philosophy which holds that the provision of goods, services, contracts and activities should take place primarily through voluntary market agreements rather than the state." This definition seems rather poor, as the inclusion of the word "primarily" seems to make some versions of statism compatible with free-market anarchism (as defined in this way). It also just doesn't seem to be worded well overall. Is it grammatically correct to say "the provision of... contracts and activities..."? Someone please fix this. I recommend adding Roderick Long's definition as an improvement. Thanks. 64.223.151.21 ( talk) 07:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree completely. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Free-market_anarchism&oldid=527162677 this is an old version. The continual political edits turn this into a bit of a patchwork mess. Maybe you could add a praxeological emphasis and properly distinguish between the extant "anarchy of the market" (as Bolsheviks called it in disdain) that free market anarchism wants to elaborate entirely and the abstract reactionary concept of "market" socialism. Free market anarchism is primarily an anarcho-capitalist/voluntarist movement that developed from classical liberal laissez faire and individualist anarchism. I think Mutualism then comes after voluntarism (even though I like Long). I think the reactionary concept of "market socialism" either deserves its own section with criticism if it warrants space at all. (it has its own page already). Maybe add Hoppe's private law stuff :) Rothbardanswer ( talk) 18:06, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I've looked at this entire talk page and in the space of less than a week you've filled it with your own political opinions. I'm not going to read it all but it has to be said the purpose of a wiki article is to document an idea. In this case it's the history of the development of free market anarchism. It doesn't matter if you object to the way dead philosophers and economists use the word or how popular their ideas became. If you're offended by the article then don't read it. Stop badgering everyone to change their cited contributions to an article THAT IS about something you seem to dislike. Wikipedia isn't hear to definition things out of existence.
If you continue to be so blatantly non-neutral and openly talk about vandalising text you dislike I'll have to report you.
Rothbardanswer (
talk)
09:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I was warned TWICE for edit warring on the liberalism page. That was before I even knew what edit warring was! Sourced material was being routinely deleted by people pushing a political point. The actual issue was over the inclusion of Spanish Scholastics. That's it. It was another technical issue that offended the political sensibilities of an editor. Why don't you show me one paragraph you've written where you aren't just going on and on passing judgment and criticising philosophers you dislike. It's irrelevant. You don't have any valid criticisms of the contributions other than your own politics. Show me one paragraph where you demonstrate knowledge of what free market anarchy even is. Your main source was a youtube video. I watched it. It outlined anarcho-capitalism! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rothbardanswer ( talk • contribs) 14:46, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Every criticism you make in these talk pages is a criticism of the philosophy or economic theory (that you don't get) expressed by primary sources. Your contribution to the lead was to delete cited contributions without explanation and add "broadly" and pass judgment and push your own political opinion that free market anarchism is only "purportedly" stateless. I shouldn't have to explain political philosophy to you but individualism and libertarianism aren't egalitarian movements. That's why its called libertarian. People are free to be different in a stateless society. Here's some texts you deleted: [6], [7], [8]. You've actually ruined the lead. This isn't an article on socialism. If you want to understand what free market anarchism is you can read any of the intellectual literature from before the fall of the soviet union. Read Einstein's "shy socialism". He talks about rejecting the "anarchy of the market". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rothbardanswer ( talk • contribs) 15:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Does this include Kevin Carson and Roderick Long? Both, I think, describe themselves as anti-capitalist, using the term capitalism as Marx did: a system of political privileges to existing firms, at the expense of both labor and competition. Opposition to capitalism in this sense does not require collective ownership. — Tamfang ( talk) 05:37, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
The content of the article is a description of anarcho-capitalism with another terms, or what political history use to expose as examples of libertarian anarchism before libertarian anarchism. This last is an extemporaneous interpretation from modern intelectuals and is enough for the section of "precursors" in the article about anarcho-capitalism or by extension for the interpretations about what was historical free-market anarcho-individualism (now defunct) in the article about anarcho-individualism. This separated article "free-market anarchism" is almost primary source and haven't enough enciclopedical relevance, and the very defenses of its permanence are especulations from some Wikipedia editors not reducted to expose several/reliable sources.
Another defenses of this separated article using sources of isolated authors aren't sequent to the relevance politics of Wikipedia and therefore should no longer be used. That's only a good idea for write in the Wikipedia article of the isolated author about his/her use of of the term "free-market anarchism", no more. Language is a social practice, remember that.
The second solution I propose is to make this entrance to a disambiguation page, citing in first place the primarily social use of the expression "free-market anarchism" that refers to anarcho-capitalism and convergent ideas. I suposse the other uses in the list of the disambiguation page could be a matter of another discussion. -- Sageo ( talk) 00:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
This article misrepresents two anarchist individualists, Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner, as capitalists. In actuality, their views closely follow those of Proudhon and even older, anti-capitalist classical liberal strains of thought, as described in this documentary on American anarchism and thoroughly detailed in the Anarchist FAQ. They denounced wage labor, adhered to the labor theory of value, and believed workers should own and control their own means of production, which is the core tenet of socialism. This is a grossly misinformed account of people who considered themselves part of the socialist movement, and I am correcting it, if this article is not to be renamed, merged or deleted, as in my opinion it should be. Finx ( talk) 22:17, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Adding the following references, on how both Tucker and Spooner were anti-capitalists because this keeps creeping up again and again:
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help)Honestly hope that will be the end of that, because I'm getting tired of having to explain that anarchism has always been a socialist movement. Finx ( talk) 23:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
This article is an essay, check Wikipedia:Original research. An article in Wikipedia couldn't be a collection of opinions of the wikipedians themselves. This is not the same case of merge petition, I'm saying that this content is an essay. There aren't reliable sources that support the definitions and taxonomies that this article shows. Even, this article induces to think the term "market anarchism" is a historical one when it is contemporary. -- Sageo ( talk) 04:35, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
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help)By the way "market anarchism" isn't a "theory" - just like "market socialism" isn't a "theory"; it's a compendium of anarchist ideas advocating market systems. If you're finished retaliating for me removing your 'market anarchism' -> 'anarcho-capitalism' redirect, please remove the templates at your convenience, unless you want to provide some examples of actual OR/PS/etc. Finx ( talk) 06:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, what we can see its that the use of the term haven't many years, few decades, it's not a term used by those ancient authors to refers themselves or their theories. (Only two) references mention the use of the term to refers to 19º century american anarcho-individualism, the last explain ancient american anarcho-individualism without using the term. The others sources only mention the word market - and been the word market so common, that is not a relevant proof of the use of the term. Check again "original Research" policies and the announce of the template: "This article or section may contain previously unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources." That is the problem. Also we have to check the uses of the term, as synonymous of or refering to anarcho-capitalism:
According to free-market anarchism, all the fundamental institutions necessary for the market to function—money, police protection, and even justice—would themselves be "for sale on the market." Democracy, Markets, and the Legal Order: Notes on the Nature of Politics in a Radically Liberal Society (1993) Cambridge Journal
The Production of Security ... was the first presentation ... of what is now called "anarcho-capitalism" or "free-market anarchism. Murray Rothbard (1977) The oldest use I find Prologue to The Porduction of Security of Gustave de Molinari
Anarchism advocates the dissolution of the State into social and market arrangements, and these arrangements are far more flexible and less predictable than political institutions. Society without a State, Rothbard (1975) I show this source only to contextualize the age when concepts "anarchism" and "market" began to be together, in this paper even "anarchism" is used as a synonymous of "anarcho-capitalism".
This position is generally know as "market anarchism" or "anarcho-capitalism". Roderick Long and Tibor Machan (2007), book of debate, Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of a Free Country?
I shall maintain, one, that anarcho-capitalism and minarchism are logically incompatible. And then This implies free-market anarchism, and thus a rejection of minarchism, since with the right of secession. Walter Block (2007). A paper in response of the book, where "free-market anarchism" is an alternative term for "anarcho-capitalism".
What we have to the date, is that "free-market anarchism" is a not so old term. Many times had been used as synonymous of anarcho-capitalism, probably from the 1970's. And other sources, even more recent (10 years ago like it seems), used retrospectively that term to refers the ancient liberal american anarcho-individualism. For the date, what we have is a very recent synonymous for two historically separated political streams. So I think the redirection is not an option, but a disambiguation page to anarcho-capitalism and to american 19º centtury liberal anarcho-individualism. Maybe should begins like this, "Free-market anarchism is a contemporary political term used to refers:". We haven't sources for more that this.-- Sageo ( talk) 19:18, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
The article would be improved by additional WP:RS discussion of Nozick's view, stated in the criticism section. Nozick's view is the consensus view today across the ordinary spectrum of thought from left to right. SPECIFICO talk 22:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
There is already an article on anarchist economics. It covers a broad spectrum of ideas, including those of marginal, self-labeled anarchists like anarcho-capitalists. I propose that this article be deleted, to end the constant bickering and relentless attempts at appropriation of the term, and redirected to "anarchist economics" after expanding some of its market-related topics with what can be salvaged from this article. Finx ( talk) 15:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
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link)People are free to believe whatever they want, and Wikipedia certainly should not say free market anarchism is a good or bad political system. However, it is important to note the fact that virtually no academic philosophers or economists endorse this system, making it a fringe economic theory and fringe political philosophy. I recommend someone finds an RS which documents these facts. (I will surely do it eventually if no one else is up to the task.) Thanks! Steeletrap ( talk) 00:46, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
After read both interventions in upper section I believe the less interpretative description of the uses B and C that I previously indicate;
This ref reads: The generic term “market anarchism” is sometimes used to include both anarcho-capitalism and the market-friendly varieties of more traditional individualist anarchism. That is a the estructure of a neutral and sourced redaction. We can adapt it with the information we have, even those that use it as a synonymous (check past references in this talk page), and all the sourced uses (avoiding the synthesis in talk page). So, lets do betters line, my time:
(Disambiguation)
Free-market anarchism is a political term used in diferent forms:
-- Sageo ( talk) 23:12, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
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I propose merging Left-wing market anarchism into Free-market anarchism. I think there is a huge overlap and repetition in the former article, and virtually all free-market anarchists were/are left-wing, thus we create a bit of a pleonasm. I acknowledge that some anarcho-capitalists refer to themselves as "free-market anarchists", but this can be briefly addressed in the article.
@ Davide King, Bobfrombrockley, and Des Vallee: Pinging main recent contributors. Please help pinging other relevant editors. BeŻet ( talk) 13:41, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
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czar
16:48, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
I've now performed a merge as it has unanimous support. I also made some bold changes, which I'm happy to discuss. BeŻet ( talk) 13:01, 11 December 2021 (UTC)