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It has not been confirmed that the Mk Vs in Berlin were involved in any fighting, only that they were present. See discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_I_tank#Combat_history
No Mk V tanks were used in Palestine/Gaza, only Mk I and Mk IV. Hengistmate ( talk) 23:49, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Made multiple amendments to this. Mk V did not carry Vickers guns. Corrected details of rear cupola. Mk V* was not a purpose-built APC; that was the Mk IX. The room for troops was "a bonus" (Glanfield). Expanded lead section. Clarified tale of Mk Vs in Berlin, 1945. Etc. Hengistmate ( talk) 16:48, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I notice that the link to the Walter Wilson section of the Preselector Gearbox article has been removed. There was, of course, no claim that the Mark V had a preselector gearbox; it was a link to a potted history of Wilson's involvement with the principle. Bit of a "straw man" argument, really, but never mind. On the other hand, it does raise an interesting point. There isn't a satisfactory description of Wilson's epicyclic system (as used for the Mk V onwards) on Wikipedia. Since it was (and remains) such a significant development, this would seem to be a regrettable omission. It would be excellent if there were an authoritative yet accessible article that could be linked with the numerous WWI tank articles and, doubtless, many others.
I've been gradually improving the WWI articles, but much remains to be done, and it is very time-consuming, what with one thing and another. I'm not trying to build an encyclopaedia, just trying to weed out some of the more obvious misinformation. It strikes me that someone with a consuming interest in little-known technologies would be the ideal person to produce the article required, and the name of Andy Dingley, a respected and valuable contributor, springs to mind. How about it? Something that explains in understandable terms how the system worked, and how it did the job previously done by the two gearsmen. It would be pro-active and the type of collaborative editing that Wikipedia encourages. More work than simply reverting edits, but possibly even more satisfying. RSVP Hengistmate ( talk) 03:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Is it realistic to say that the Mk V was in service until 1945? There is no reliable evidence that any were used in action in 1945. Does being towed to a site and dug in as a pillbox in 1941 count as service? IIRC the last confirmed date for Mk Vs in full operational order is 1923. Hengistmate ( talk) 20:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Bullock, Aksenov, & Sarson say that 19 Mk Vs served in the 3rd Tank regiment, along with new Soviet designs, as late as 1930. "By 1931 all civil war period tanks were in depots, various tank schools or academies, doing limited guard duty, or were on firing ranges." David Fletcher says something along the same lines, albeit in less detail. On the other hand, Bullock, Aksenov, & Sarson also say that the Mk Vs captured in Estonia by the Soviets "actively served in the defence of Tallin in August 1941", which is rather moot. Perhaps we should define our terms. Do you have any sources? Hengistmate ( talk) 16:42, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
The Bovington Mk V hasn't been in running order for several years. The two images of the Mk V at Luhansk are of the same vehicle. As the German and Russian captions say, it is a "Composite", or "Hermaphrodite", with one Male and one Female sponson. Most, if not all, the Mk Vs sent to Russia were Hermaphrodites, usually with the Male sponson on the right. Will check on the other examples. Hengistmate ( talk) 09:44, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
http://englishrussia.com/2009/10/02/the-refurbished-tanks/ Two MkVs being refurbished at Luhansk. http://photo.ukrinform.ua/eng/current/photo.php?id=291086 "Moreover, on September 22, two captured Mark V tanks of the early 20th century were reinstalled at the complex after being reconstructed. The reconstruction was provided by the Luhanskteplovoz. /AB/ " There are unverified rumours of 2 more in a scrapyard.
Okay. This is the thing. It's already been quite carefully explained a couple of times that there's no evidence of Mk Vs being in action in 1945. Call it POV pushing, call it "a widely circulating view" - there's nothing that supports the proposition, particularly on the web page that is offered. No amount of reading it will reveal anything other than that the vehicles were present. Even if one thought that attempting to argue that vehicles that had been on a plinth outside Smolensk Cathedral for 20 years and then in the Berliner Lustgarten for another 4 would have been serviceable made any sense, it would be a waste of time; there is no WP:RS, a point about which some editors are very particular almost all the time. I have, therefore, taken the liberty of removing that reference.
Now to the actual verifiable dates of service: Fletcher (2011) describes, but does not display, a photograph of a Mk V allegedly in Tallinn in 1941. Examination of the photograph elsewhere reveals that Fletcher describes it correctly. It is this writer's view that he stops short of stating unequivocally that Mk Vs saw action in 1941, but it doesn't matter. We have a source that does: Eesti soomusmasinad : soomusautod ja tankid, 1918-1940 by Tiit Noormets & Mati Õun ISBN 9789985606926. So we no longer need to accommodate an info box that says 1945, without citation, and we can resolve the ambiguity of an editor offering (albeit invalid) references in support of 1945 but arguing elsewhere for 1920.
A question that remains unanswered is whether it is appropriate to say that a vehicle was "in service" when, in fact, it was a case of only a small number or a solitary example lingering on. Perhaps it is possible to find a method of categorisation that reflects the situation more helpfully. Hengistmate ( talk) 01:15, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I am sorry that it is necessary to explain this a fourth time. No one is disputing the presence of the vehicles in question. Neither of the cited sources, though, supports the assertion that the tanks took part in any combat. That is very clear. Such an assertion also causes the infobox to contradict the body copy. If you believe that the sources do support your assertion, or if you can find evidence elsewhere that does, please supply more specific details. Moreover, on p67 Fletcher does not support the contention that there were two tanks, which causes a problem, since it means that the reliable source is manifestly wrong.
Some additional matters:
Hengistmate ( talk) 12:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Read. Hengistmate ( talk) 18:11, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Seven? /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources
Eight? /info/en/?search=Talk:British_heavy_tanks_of_World_War_I#Mark_V_series_use_in_Berlin_1945
Nine? Read your sources over and over and over again.
Ten? "It's not clear where they came from, or just what use was made of them." Apart from the fact that we do know where they came from (Smolensk - are you actually reading any of this?), I couldn't have put it better myself. There is consensus.
I think this sums it up very nicely:
"The last known use of the Mk V in battle was by units of the Red Army during the defence of Tallin against German forces in August 1941. The four Mk Vs previously operated by Estonia were used as dug-in fortifications. It is believed that they were subsequently scrapped."
"In 1945, Allied troops came across two badly damaged Mk V tanks in Berlin. Photographic evidence indicates that these were survivors of the Russian Civil War and had previously been displayed as a monument in Smolensk, Russia, before being brought to Berlin after the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.[6] Accounts of their active involvement in the Battle of Berlin have not been verified."
Fletcher is wrong about the number of vehicles, but the facts about them can be established separately. Assumptions about them cannot. We can establish 1941, but not 1945.
(Btw, at Tallin two of the Estonian vehicles moved under their own power, and two were towed into position. Info not yet published, so that is FYI only. Don't put it on Wikipedia.)
I've referred before to your collection of runner-up medals. I don't know why you persist. We're in (in the light of recent events) Stuart Lancaster territory. I'd call it a day if I were you. Hengistmate ( talk) 21:28, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Now this is neither issue to regular troops in the Beutepanzer sense, nor were they likely to be particular functional vehicles. The photos do suggest a working drive in one of them, but I doubt they had much military value other than as thin-skinned pillboxes with small arms within and nothing to fit the sponson guns. Still, if we're counting the 1941 service, why not 1945? This is covered in more detail in the article (Hengistmate permitting) and for the "headline" like this I think it's better to favour inclusion than exclusion, so long as it is explained more thoroughly in the body. See also the Stridsvagn L-60, another surprisingly long service history.
Sorry to Andy Dingley, Scrapiron IV, et al.
Our research has just unearthed the diary of a member of the Hitler Youth, Eulen Spiegelei, who was just 14 at the time of the Battle of Berlin. In it he describes how, in the last days of the battle, he and his platoon started up the two Mk Vs and drove them through the streets of the city, attempting to halt the advance of the Red Army. These attacks took the Soviets completely by surprise, and, because they were carried out by what appeared to children, they were nicknamed Kinderüberraschung.
The tanks themselves performed remarkably well after a long period of inactivity, and harried the invading troops so doggedly that admiring German troops indeed dubbed them "dog tanks" (Hundepanzer).
Apologies to everyone who has helped to edit this section, and sorry for having doubted you. This new information has not yet appeared in a WP:RS, but it might well, soon. In the meantime, should I correct the "lede" to include their WWII service? Hengistmate ( talk) 10:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi, Hengistmate, thanks for your edits. A few ideas:
Cheers, > MinorProphet ( talk) 01:56, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
The last confirmed use of the Mk V in battle was by units of the Red Army during the defence of Tallinn against German forces in August 1941. The four Mk Vs previously operated by Estonia were used as dug-in fortifications. It is believed that they were subsequently scrapped. [1]
The source says, that it's unknown whether they got to the actual battle... with this plan ... WikedKentaur ( talk) 14:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It has not been confirmed that the Mk Vs in Berlin were involved in any fighting, only that they were present. See discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_I_tank#Combat_history
No Mk V tanks were used in Palestine/Gaza, only Mk I and Mk IV. Hengistmate ( talk) 23:49, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Made multiple amendments to this. Mk V did not carry Vickers guns. Corrected details of rear cupola. Mk V* was not a purpose-built APC; that was the Mk IX. The room for troops was "a bonus" (Glanfield). Expanded lead section. Clarified tale of Mk Vs in Berlin, 1945. Etc. Hengistmate ( talk) 16:48, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
I notice that the link to the Walter Wilson section of the Preselector Gearbox article has been removed. There was, of course, no claim that the Mark V had a preselector gearbox; it was a link to a potted history of Wilson's involvement with the principle. Bit of a "straw man" argument, really, but never mind. On the other hand, it does raise an interesting point. There isn't a satisfactory description of Wilson's epicyclic system (as used for the Mk V onwards) on Wikipedia. Since it was (and remains) such a significant development, this would seem to be a regrettable omission. It would be excellent if there were an authoritative yet accessible article that could be linked with the numerous WWI tank articles and, doubtless, many others.
I've been gradually improving the WWI articles, but much remains to be done, and it is very time-consuming, what with one thing and another. I'm not trying to build an encyclopaedia, just trying to weed out some of the more obvious misinformation. It strikes me that someone with a consuming interest in little-known technologies would be the ideal person to produce the article required, and the name of Andy Dingley, a respected and valuable contributor, springs to mind. How about it? Something that explains in understandable terms how the system worked, and how it did the job previously done by the two gearsmen. It would be pro-active and the type of collaborative editing that Wikipedia encourages. More work than simply reverting edits, but possibly even more satisfying. RSVP Hengistmate ( talk) 03:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Is it realistic to say that the Mk V was in service until 1945? There is no reliable evidence that any were used in action in 1945. Does being towed to a site and dug in as a pillbox in 1941 count as service? IIRC the last confirmed date for Mk Vs in full operational order is 1923. Hengistmate ( talk) 20:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Bullock, Aksenov, & Sarson say that 19 Mk Vs served in the 3rd Tank regiment, along with new Soviet designs, as late as 1930. "By 1931 all civil war period tanks were in depots, various tank schools or academies, doing limited guard duty, or were on firing ranges." David Fletcher says something along the same lines, albeit in less detail. On the other hand, Bullock, Aksenov, & Sarson also say that the Mk Vs captured in Estonia by the Soviets "actively served in the defence of Tallin in August 1941", which is rather moot. Perhaps we should define our terms. Do you have any sources? Hengistmate ( talk) 16:42, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
The Bovington Mk V hasn't been in running order for several years. The two images of the Mk V at Luhansk are of the same vehicle. As the German and Russian captions say, it is a "Composite", or "Hermaphrodite", with one Male and one Female sponson. Most, if not all, the Mk Vs sent to Russia were Hermaphrodites, usually with the Male sponson on the right. Will check on the other examples. Hengistmate ( talk) 09:44, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
http://englishrussia.com/2009/10/02/the-refurbished-tanks/ Two MkVs being refurbished at Luhansk. http://photo.ukrinform.ua/eng/current/photo.php?id=291086 "Moreover, on September 22, two captured Mark V tanks of the early 20th century were reinstalled at the complex after being reconstructed. The reconstruction was provided by the Luhanskteplovoz. /AB/ " There are unverified rumours of 2 more in a scrapyard.
Okay. This is the thing. It's already been quite carefully explained a couple of times that there's no evidence of Mk Vs being in action in 1945. Call it POV pushing, call it "a widely circulating view" - there's nothing that supports the proposition, particularly on the web page that is offered. No amount of reading it will reveal anything other than that the vehicles were present. Even if one thought that attempting to argue that vehicles that had been on a plinth outside Smolensk Cathedral for 20 years and then in the Berliner Lustgarten for another 4 would have been serviceable made any sense, it would be a waste of time; there is no WP:RS, a point about which some editors are very particular almost all the time. I have, therefore, taken the liberty of removing that reference.
Now to the actual verifiable dates of service: Fletcher (2011) describes, but does not display, a photograph of a Mk V allegedly in Tallinn in 1941. Examination of the photograph elsewhere reveals that Fletcher describes it correctly. It is this writer's view that he stops short of stating unequivocally that Mk Vs saw action in 1941, but it doesn't matter. We have a source that does: Eesti soomusmasinad : soomusautod ja tankid, 1918-1940 by Tiit Noormets & Mati Õun ISBN 9789985606926. So we no longer need to accommodate an info box that says 1945, without citation, and we can resolve the ambiguity of an editor offering (albeit invalid) references in support of 1945 but arguing elsewhere for 1920.
A question that remains unanswered is whether it is appropriate to say that a vehicle was "in service" when, in fact, it was a case of only a small number or a solitary example lingering on. Perhaps it is possible to find a method of categorisation that reflects the situation more helpfully. Hengistmate ( talk) 01:15, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I am sorry that it is necessary to explain this a fourth time. No one is disputing the presence of the vehicles in question. Neither of the cited sources, though, supports the assertion that the tanks took part in any combat. That is very clear. Such an assertion also causes the infobox to contradict the body copy. If you believe that the sources do support your assertion, or if you can find evidence elsewhere that does, please supply more specific details. Moreover, on p67 Fletcher does not support the contention that there were two tanks, which causes a problem, since it means that the reliable source is manifestly wrong.
Some additional matters:
Hengistmate ( talk) 12:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Read. Hengistmate ( talk) 18:11, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Seven? /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources
Eight? /info/en/?search=Talk:British_heavy_tanks_of_World_War_I#Mark_V_series_use_in_Berlin_1945
Nine? Read your sources over and over and over again.
Ten? "It's not clear where they came from, or just what use was made of them." Apart from the fact that we do know where they came from (Smolensk - are you actually reading any of this?), I couldn't have put it better myself. There is consensus.
I think this sums it up very nicely:
"The last known use of the Mk V in battle was by units of the Red Army during the defence of Tallin against German forces in August 1941. The four Mk Vs previously operated by Estonia were used as dug-in fortifications. It is believed that they were subsequently scrapped."
"In 1945, Allied troops came across two badly damaged Mk V tanks in Berlin. Photographic evidence indicates that these were survivors of the Russian Civil War and had previously been displayed as a monument in Smolensk, Russia, before being brought to Berlin after the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.[6] Accounts of their active involvement in the Battle of Berlin have not been verified."
Fletcher is wrong about the number of vehicles, but the facts about them can be established separately. Assumptions about them cannot. We can establish 1941, but not 1945.
(Btw, at Tallin two of the Estonian vehicles moved under their own power, and two were towed into position. Info not yet published, so that is FYI only. Don't put it on Wikipedia.)
I've referred before to your collection of runner-up medals. I don't know why you persist. We're in (in the light of recent events) Stuart Lancaster territory. I'd call it a day if I were you. Hengistmate ( talk) 21:28, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Now this is neither issue to regular troops in the Beutepanzer sense, nor were they likely to be particular functional vehicles. The photos do suggest a working drive in one of them, but I doubt they had much military value other than as thin-skinned pillboxes with small arms within and nothing to fit the sponson guns. Still, if we're counting the 1941 service, why not 1945? This is covered in more detail in the article (Hengistmate permitting) and for the "headline" like this I think it's better to favour inclusion than exclusion, so long as it is explained more thoroughly in the body. See also the Stridsvagn L-60, another surprisingly long service history.
Sorry to Andy Dingley, Scrapiron IV, et al.
Our research has just unearthed the diary of a member of the Hitler Youth, Eulen Spiegelei, who was just 14 at the time of the Battle of Berlin. In it he describes how, in the last days of the battle, he and his platoon started up the two Mk Vs and drove them through the streets of the city, attempting to halt the advance of the Red Army. These attacks took the Soviets completely by surprise, and, because they were carried out by what appeared to children, they were nicknamed Kinderüberraschung.
The tanks themselves performed remarkably well after a long period of inactivity, and harried the invading troops so doggedly that admiring German troops indeed dubbed them "dog tanks" (Hundepanzer).
Apologies to everyone who has helped to edit this section, and sorry for having doubted you. This new information has not yet appeared in a WP:RS, but it might well, soon. In the meantime, should I correct the "lede" to include their WWII service? Hengistmate ( talk) 10:35, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Hi, Hengistmate, thanks for your edits. A few ideas:
Cheers, > MinorProphet ( talk) 01:56, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
The last confirmed use of the Mk V in battle was by units of the Red Army during the defence of Tallinn against German forces in August 1941. The four Mk Vs previously operated by Estonia were used as dug-in fortifications. It is believed that they were subsequently scrapped. [1]
The source says, that it's unknown whether they got to the actual battle... with this plan ... WikedKentaur ( talk) 14:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
References