This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mark Hofmann article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a freely-licensed image or photograph be
included in this article to replace copyrighted images in order to better comply with our
policy for non-free content. Many copyright-free image sources are listed at
Wikimedia Commons, or you could create your own. Alternatively, you may
request permission from the copyright holder of the original images to release them under a free license. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
While serving my mission, I came across a copy of BYU magazine that discussed how Hofmann produced his documents and how they fooled so many experts. I found it fascinating. Anyone have access to material that discusses this aspect of his work? — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:19, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that you read the book "The Poet and the Murderer". It focuses in great detail on how he created many of his forgeries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.55.187 ( talk • contribs) 17:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
How about adding references to the following?
Forensic Files "Postal Mortem"
Crimelibrary article about the Mormon forgery murders — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 ( talk) 16:02, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
would it be unreasonable to add as trivia that he possibly inspired the law and order criminal intent episode titled 'the saint' (which ironically, I've just found out is being rescreened locally tonight) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.84.83.158 ( talk) 09:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
I was just gonna leave a comment about that episode and it was already done.Im gonna add it. The Clydelishes Clyde 20:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The claim that the McLellin collection was found in Texas seems to have been added by a computer at BYU on the 5th of August 2006. It is inaccurate. The LDS church bought it in 1908 and lost it in its archives. It was rediscovered during the Hofmann investigation as reveal in Turley’s book Victims. [1] The McLellin Collection may deserve to have its own page.-- Fmatmi ( talk) 23:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
The false claim that the collection was found in Texas remains in the article. Page 213 of Victims: The LDS Church and the Mark Hofmann Case, By Richard E. Turley (published in 1992?) explains the error in the 1988 book referenced in the article. The LDS church bought the Collection in 1908. The collection and its existence was lost in the Church's archives until the Hofmann investigation. -- Fmatmi ( talk) 02:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
"Texas Papers Not Quite 'McLellin Collecion,'" read the headline to the Deseret News article on the subject that afternoon. The article quoted a state government archivist who said of the collection, "It really should be called the Traughber collection, because the bulk of the material is (J. L.) Traughber's notes on McLellin." The article reported that the collection apparently did not contain McLellin's journals, as had been expected, nor any other material from the 1830's. --page 213 Victims
While the Tanners did question the salamander letter's authenticity, I think it's a stretch to say they were critics of Hofmann himself. Their publications reproduced many of Hofmann's claims; for example, his claim to have purchased the McLellin collection. I've therefore narrowed the language dealing with the Tanners' skepticism and moved it into the section discussing the salamander letter. Mgy401 1912 ( talk) 01:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
While Hofmann claimed that the explosion that injured him was a suicide attempt, this claim should be taken with a grain of salt. He may have made the bomb for other purposes, and merely mishandled it. (See Lindsey on this point.) I have therefore inserted the word “alleged” in
(and of course restored the moveable ‘n’ to “an”). — SlamDiego ←T 21:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Under the heading, Other Mormon Forgeries, it says that Gordon B. Hinckley was the leader of the church. He was not the president of the church at the time. Spencer W. Kimball was. Shoreu ( talk) 03:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
After looking through your contributions, I realize that you're on some kind of quest against the Mormons. I fully expect you to re-undo my (completely valid and style-appropriate) edit. I don't really care what you have against them, but it's disheartening that you allow your bias to get the better of you. It's as silly as the Packers fans who make disingenuous edits to the Brett Favre article. Or the 9-11 "truthers" who are constantly nitpicking every article related to the Bush administration. I hope you are personally satisfied by your time, but you're doing the Wikipedia community a disservice. ∅BRIT 15:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello! I am glad to see that there are two editors excited about improving the encyclopedia. I have read your comments, and will offer an opinion in a little while. In the meantime, it would be helpful if you could both briefly state your position and concerns, and the independent, secondary sources that you believe to support your position. Also, I would advise against anything that may seem to be irrelevant to the subject under consideration or could be construed as personal mischaracterizations - let's focus specifically on this article! Thanks again, — Matheuler 02:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
This is indeed a complex question in some ways. In summary, I agree with Mr. Foxe that a mention of the independent secondary source regarding the subject should be mentioned. Since Foxe has provided a published source to back up his claim, it now does fall upon another user to provide another source that would dispute the the initial claim. I shall have to ponder a compromise solution, perhaps along the lines of "Some sources, including Mr. So-and-so, believe that Mr. Such-and-such was fooled by these forgeries." In any event, I must state that I understand both sides of this question, but only Mr. Foxe has provided published secondary sources to verify his claims, so I must agree with him, in at least a limited sense. — Matheuler 00:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
"No one, of course, can be certain that Martin Harris wrote the document. However, at this point we accept the judgment of the examiner that there is no indication that it is a forgery. This does not preclude the possibility that it may have been forged at a time when the Church had many enemies." [3]
These fooled not only members of the First Presidency — notably Gordon B. Hinckley...
Interesting to find you here, John Foxe. Please remind us all what your POV on the LDS Church was before you began contributing here, you never did identify it on the other page I saw you at. And please, simply stating you are not LDS does not identify POV.
My real concern here is that this article is about a cold-blooded murderer, but the authors of the page have designed a scope and sequence which is more celebratory of his life and deception than should be ascribed to a convicted murderer. Notice the article leads up to and ends with Hoffman's "Legacy." It's disturbing to think that some individuals hate Mormons so much they would exalt a murderer just so long as it satisfied their end of embarrassing Mormons. It's tantamount to calling Hitler a modern day Robin Hood because in some instances he stole from wealthy Jews and gave to poor unemployed non-Jewish citizens. Offensive, tasteless, sick. While hate may be a strong emotion, it is still a weakness.
Another sick element to this article is the pointed finger at the leadership of the Church. As one of the footnotes suggests the apostles "...were seers, endowed with the power of discernment, who, according to the Book of Mormon could 'translate all records that are of ancient date.' The attempted point here is that these men are frauds or failures because Hoffman "tricked" them. This is like blaming the victim of a mugging because they were out late. Tactless and immature. The point that is ignored is that;
1. The men involved held the authority as seers and revelators, but it has always been practice and doctrine that only the the President of the Church exercises these authorities for the entire Church.
2. Though an individual holds Priesthood authority they likely do not receive revelation 24/7. Revelation often comes only after serious reflection and prayer (D&C 138). I am sure that even the Prophet of the Church has purchased moldy bread. Remember that the apostles of Christ (Peter, James, John,...) needed ongoing instruction from Jesus Christ as they would miss important spiritual matters from time to time. And since they were flawed I guess that means we have to throw out the Bible? Not me.
There seems to be a natural selection of the "facts" here to include only those which exploit LDS leaders or point out their errors. Perhaps more of a focus on the creep Hofmann is, the "legacy" (I would use the term 'fallout' and not 'legacy') of the impact and challenges overcome by the family members of Hofmann's murder victims, or even his behavior in prison. But it seems the editors here are far more interested in dredging the harbor than going upstream for the real story.
I'll say it again, hate may be a strong emotion, but it is still a weakness. Or in the words of Longfellow, "For hate is strong/And mocks the song/Of Peace on Earth/Good will to men." Canadiandy1 ( talk) 21:56, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
If Hofmann is more "Wikipedia Notable" for forgery than murder, that merely reveals an inherent problem with Wikipedia. Last I checked common law provides greater punishment for murder than forgery. And I don't think that is out of step with common social norms and understanding.
199.60.41.9 ( talk) 21:29, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
"Skilled forger who killed ... people?" Forgery is a skill? Hmmm, and is bank robbery a craft, and breaking and entering an art, and is murder a science? "Killed?" Cancer kills people. Hofmann 'Murdered' people. If your thrill at Hofmann's forgery success is blinding your judgment, perhaps you shouldn't be contributing. 199.60.41.9 ( talk) 21:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
"Skilled," "succeeded,"personality,"unassuming scholar,"sweet," "hard-working,"highly intelligent,"dedicated..." Wow, John. Thanks for including those accolades. Maybe we should forget the fact he's a cold-blooded murderer and see if we can't start up a fan website. Your point in presenting this information? Are we trying to 'Robin Hood' this guy? Your agenda here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadiandy1 ( talk • contribs) 15:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Foxe, I don't question whether Hamilton is an authority or not. You can find authorities who will argue all kinds of things. What I find intriguing is your selection of sources (nearly always ones that are cynical of the LDS faith, and almost never ones which are respectful of that same faith). But then when LDS people find alternative sources you quickly cry LDS POV. I don't question your sources, but I do question which sources you keep finding. Please explain what it is specifically that drives you to attack the LDS faith in this manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadiandy1 ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I've gone that route. Problem is, even if I had nothing better to do than spend weeks researching a dark character such as Hofmann (like reading Stephen King while listening to Leonard Cohen for 3 weeks in a row)once I found sources they would be attacked as LDS POV and not "Prominent" so they would be quickly dismissed. My major question remains unanswered, what is it specifically that drives you to attack the LDS faith in this manner? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadiandy1 ( talk • contribs) 15:07, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Ouch. Fine, Rich jj.
First, I do not have an ongoing battle with John Foxe, his contributions maybe, but not him personally. The fact that he is the foremost contributor (senior editor?) responsible for two articles which I see as hostile to the LDS faith explains my frequent dialogue and questioning of his positions and contributions, but that does not translate to a lack of assumed good faith or good will.
Second, it looks like you're already out there protecting LDS sensitivity so I can leave it all to you now. I must assume in good faith that you have more experience with this topic and Foxe's POV and that you will better represent common LDS perspective. Since your polite reproval I am now left with little option other than taking on your POV or accepting the "balance" of the article. I figure rather than try and take on both you and John Foxe, I'll defer to you both. If you want to own this one, have at 'er. But please, for future reference, just because you are not very offended by the tenor of the article does not mean other LDS aren't. I just anticipate that the majority of LDS members I am familiar with would be heavily offended by someone painting Gordon B. Hinckley as the dupe of a fraudulent murderer. Especially if that murderer was given recognition (you call it negative, I see positive) at his expense.
Third, you take issue with me attributing the glorification of Hitler to the glorification of Hofmann. The only way anyone would be offended by such a statement is if they were part of the glorification process which people seem to be distancing themselves from anyway making the point moot. I will apologize if anyone read my words to mean anyone contributing loves Hitler. That is not at all what I meant. But I will not retract my feelings that both Hitler and Hofmann are dark, evil, manipulative men. And so anyone glorifying either is making a serious error in moral judgment.
But since you are so quick to pounce, I will step aside and let you have it. You defend it, you can own it.
I have better things to do. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 01:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Thank you for your courtesy, jj Rich. I apologize for jumping into this article full guns blaring. What I need to remember is that on the Joseph Smith article I have been around and established a somewhat respectable presence (I know I have ruffled feathers but I believe I did it with integrity, and the civility one would expect from someone highly offended by a skeptical article). I think you will find me blunt, but fair. What I won't do is try to suppress my beliefs for the sake of civility. I will try not to be offensive in offending erroneous, disrespectful, or undignified information. You will find I stick up for Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Jews, Amish, Moslems, Lutherans, and Seventh-Day Adventists and most others) with the same level of zeal. The reality is that I post primarily on LDS based topics because it is more interesting to me. But I would expect to find Lutherans sticking up for their faith on the article about Luther.
Now, if I could reiterate my main beef here. It is not that I ignore the fact Gordon Hinckley or any other LDS leaders are not fallible, it is that the scope of the article reads to me in places like "Gotcha" journalism. Heck, President Hinckley probably picked his nose, broke wind, buried his neighbour's cat in the local elementary school flowerbed when he was 17, and swore at one of his kids just like the rest of us (okay maybe the cat part was just me and I apologize to animal rights people, the cat was already dead, and it was winter and I had younger sisters who would have been devestated, is this mic on). But to fixate on Hinckley's 'mistake' (I don't call it a mistake as I have always understood we as citizens are only guilty of a crime or mistake if we act with guilty conscience) with the implication he should have known because he was a prophet? Someone, somewhere chose that text specifically over all the other information available. And on its face it is unfair, and appears targeted to defame. Not very in keeping with assumed good will.
So please, if you would like to do some good, take on the disrespect shown in this article. I apologize if I frequently use Holocaust parallels. I am deeply moved by the horrible injustices inflicted on Jewish people under the Nazi regime. And so one way I try to show respect for the is by ascribing information to a common litmus test that asks the simple question, "If you replace the subject topic with the phrase 'Jewish,' would it be acceptable? For example, if I read an article making the statement, "American President Bob Bobson, a Lutheran, was elected to office in 2012." I would ask myself how it would appear if the article read, "American President Bob Bobson, a Jew, was elected to office in 2012." All of a sudden I see the statement from a more fair, neutral perspective. Suddenly I see that it could easily appear condescending to Lutherans.
Forgive me if I take offense at this article. You may cry I am being too Politically Correct, but I think that tolerance of others is the new expectation. Please, ask yourself if this article would be as protected if it focused the same level of skepticism on a group of Jewish people or their leaders. I am not arguing Mormons have the same experience as Jewish Holocaust survivors and tehir families. I am arguing ALL groups of people, and their faiths, should be treated with the highest level of dignity and respect. NO group of people should be defined by their enemies and detractors. That includes Mormons.
So if Wikipedia is more concerned with Wikicode and Wikipolicy than it is with human dignity and tolerance, I will be a voice here to call out against it. I'll do it for Lutherans, and Catholics, and members of the Bahai faith, and I take offense at having my POV questioned when I do it as it relates to my own faith.
Apology humbly, sincerely, and respectfully accepted.
Peace
199.60.41.15 ( talk) 04:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
John Foxe, you tidied up the talk page? I don't like it. It makes this look like the discussion is about me. If you had noticed the discussion had been dead for a few days and was likely on its way out anyway. I'd prefer a revert.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 14:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
The title wasn't the issue, but whatever.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 06:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
After reading through the FAIR LDS site at
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mark_Hofmann/Church_reaction_to_forgeries
I was fascinated by the problems with the evidences in the article here.
It provides evidences that Hinckley was very skeptical at first, that the claims of the Church hiding a document are unsubstantiated and originate solely from Hofmann (clearly an unreliable witness), and it also reveals a clear media bias from journalists trying to make money off a sensational (as in titillating) story.
So who has given FAIR LDS a fair shake? Editors here are willing to give an accused murderer the benefit of the doubt, why not the Mormons? Their evidences are well referenced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadiandy1 ( talk • contribs) 07:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Another excellent article (by Dallin H. Oakes himself) laying out the unreliability of much of the media reporting and their own acknowledgment of it is found at. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=309b71ec9b17b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav
For serious and fair-minded researchers these are must read articles.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 07:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
"According to Hofmann, Hinckley filed the letter away in a safe in the First Presidency's offices." Canadiandy1 ( talk) 15:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Thanks. As to your offer of anything else, yeah. Since so much of the reporting was incorrect (based on the manipulations of Hofmann) perhaps you could read the articles I identified and include a section on the false information lingering over this history.
Thanks in advance, 199.60.41.15 ( talk) 02:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
John,
The point here is not to persuade you to take sides on the issue. It is to present facts and research. You mean you don't agree with any of the evidence? There's an awful lot of research value there. To simply dismiss it as "a phantasmagoria of the apologists" seems unfair.
And I don't see the truth in your statement that the Church was "embarrassed by its dealings." In the article it makes it quite clear that the Church was actually quite prudent in its dealings, and was quite wary as evidenced in Hofmann's increasingly reduced offers. In fact I suspect if Hofmann hadn't been found out that New Mormon Historians would now be attacking the Church for systemically dismissing evidence which might paint them in an unflattering light.
I will agree with you that the Church was defamed, but not embarrassed (by Hofmann's actions and inaccurate media reporting). And I will also agree that with 20/20 hindsight they would likely have acted differently. But it is ethically unfair to judge an individual or group who was acting in good faith and without a guilty conscience.
I don't understand your closed position to some very well referenced facts and information. Remember, whether you like Oakes or not, he was at one time a likely candidate for the US Supreme Court. That seems to validate Oakes as a capable and reliable researcher in any matter and so I suggest he should not be so quickly dismissed. 99.199.139.154 ( talk) 03:23, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Sorry all. I have not been posting here for a bit, and will not be again, because I've been "Newcomer-Bitten" just a few too many times. I have now been called a 'troll' (I feel unfairly) by Tedder and seeing he is a senior admin to the two articles I am most interested in, I know when I'm not wanted so I'll step aside till he's gone or some better contributors like NoBrit can bring some balance to these articles. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Canadiandy1 ( talk) 02:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Discussion not focused on improving the article |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
John, You wrote the Church was "knuckleheaded" for dealing with Hofmann, "without investigating his loyalty to the Church." The fact they did actually reflects a higher ethic and not foolishness. Contrary to what your opinion is, the Church does not use its membership records in some Orwellian way. Like their auditing practices, they hold a much higher standard than is found in most business organizations. In the eyes of most, this is a good thing. Are you suggesting because a man was selling them historical documents they should have dug into his personal life to find out if he was a security risk, or worse to find out if was faithful enough? They acted in a highly dignified manner and you are trying to judge them according to hindsight and outside of the context. Again, if your POV or opinion are so biased against the Church, you should consider removing yourself from editing on this one. As to your seatbelt analogy. Yes, you would be guilty of not wearing a seatbelt. But if you had crashed into a tree because of an ice patch a fair judge would not hold you responsible for the damage to the tree. And still, I don't see what the Church did immorally or unethically. 99.199.139.154 ( talk) 16:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
John Foxe, the only time the Church follows Church Discipline (and their investigation procedures) measures is when there is clear evidence (or a reliable report) of serious transgression. While other Churches, according to you, may investigate their members regularly, member investigations are actually quite a rare procedure. That the Tanners are extremely skeptical and were right on this one does not mean they were more "inspired." Seems like the Church extended to Hofmann (though not necessarily his commodity), initially, the same assumed Good Will Wikipedia prides itself on. Reminds me of the judicial assumption of innocence until proven guilty. The logic of your argument seems a little twisted to throw discredit on the LDS Church administration. But, I'll drop this argument now as I shut out the lights for good. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 04:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Did I ever call your Church leaders or religion deceptive? I'll finish by telling you that I have been keenly interested in the men who lead this Church. I have observed that they are almost without exception men who; 1. Were charitable, honest, and respected individuals within their own communities. 2. Serve with no remuneration (most gave up high incomes to serve at their own expense). 3. Possess great intellect and moral virtue. How shameful to assault their character in such an indefensible way, and to use the Holy Bible as a tool in such an un-Christian assault? You don't have to be a Christian to come to the conclusion that you have a whole lot of soul searching to do, and hopefully some day you'll come to grips with your deep-seated, and obsessive hatred of Mormons. Seriously, counseling might help. I can recognize that my respect for these men (including the Prophet Joseph Smith) may affect my neutrality on this topic. That is why I remove myself from editing. But edit or not, at least my bias wasn't grounded in hatred or contempt. You offered me an olive branch once, though this looks like you've changed your mind. The olive branch I offer is the offering of forgiveness. I anticipate at a future day you will come to terms with your anti-Mormon obsession and feel a great regret over the misery you brought to so many. And when you do, you will have my unqualified forgiveness. I offer it in advance, as this is the last time I will be around this block. I'm tired of the bash-apologize-bash cycle. Regretfully, Canadiandy1 ( talk) 04:04, 4 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
No, John, what you said was, ",,,the Church injured itself through its own credulousness, in the words of 2 Timothy 3. 13, "deceiving and being deceived." Here's an idea. Next time you are talking to your Mormon bishop acquaintances (I notice you didn't use the word 'friends') tell them Joseph Smith was an adulterous liar, and that Gordon B. Hinckley was a liar and that Thomas Monson is a false prophet. Tell them that you are devoted to destroying their religion. Then ask them over for Easter dinner. Let me know how they respond. Mormons are generally quite a forgiving and tolerant people, but I'm curious. Not about whether they'll take you up on your offer, but what you'll do with all the leftovers. Please don't take their courtesy as a justification for the mean-spirited things you have posted and the work you have undertaken to undermine their religion. I am sorry I have to be so blunt, but you don't seem to get what you are doing. I don't understand how you could have so many Mormon friends, and then dedicate your life to trashing their religion. You know, I had the Jehovah's Witnesses at my door three days ago. I accepted their tract, thanked them for their faith and for the moral lives they lead, and found a couple points of doctrine I knew we could agree on (i.e. celebrating the life of Christ every day of the year). Finding common ground, respecting other faiths, commending good works, and speaking no ill of others (in public or private) just seemed to be the right thing to do. I am not trying to make myself sound any better than other people, because I truly think most people do the same. You may call it sympathizing with Mormon deceivers, I think others just call it common courtesy. Try it. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 15:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
The Olive Branch was only removed as I closed down my page. I also removed several comments from individuals friendly to my beliefs. To return to your cynicism, you claim it is fact that the Church acted deceitfully. Then you admit you have no proof to the fact. So if it is unprovable, offensive, and merely opinion, why say it? In your Churchill quote note the phrase, "When you HAVE to kill a man..." . No one is holding a gun to your head to make you attack the Mormon faith. I believe in the United States you have, "The right to remain silent." Canadiandy1 ( talk) 19:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Can't get rid of me fast enough, eh? I'm only here finishing up loose threads (pun intended). If you'd backed up a verse you'd have read, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." It would be expected that these men who are living lives of fidelity, integrity, and compassion towards people of all faiths and cultures, would experience persecution. The shame is that it comes not from non-believers, but from fellow Christians. My Dad (a non-Mormon) tells me of the bumper-sticker he read which stated simply, 'Jesus, save us from the Christians.' I just wish this article could be saved from your clearly biased POV. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 05:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
It seems to me that most other faiths have been quite respectful to the LDS Church, as they, from a Christian perspective, see the good we do in the world. The millions and millions in famine relief, our care for the poor and needy, our strong stand for moral issues which affect all people. As you go about "despis[ing] those that are good" I suspect you are not representative of most within the Christian community. As most Christians would say, your actions are mighty un-neighborly. 207.216.63.45 ( talk) 18:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
You win again Tedder. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 20:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy |
As a newbie, coming directly from the 5 Pillars discussion ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Impartial_tone), I would suggest that the Influence section of the Mark Hofmann could be more impartial. Specifically, the quotations presented seem to be present to take highlight the sensational language used therein. I understand that is often the purpose of using quotations, but it seems a more impartial method would be to summarize / paraphrase these descriptions of Hofmann's influence.
I'll try to remember to check back tomorrow for a response, but this is a dodge from things I ought to be doing, and even as I type, the guilt is building. :)
Best, Sah65 ( talk) 22:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
G'day. I'm not sure if this is an instance of paranoia or obsessiveness, but I'm back, in spite of your sound advice. :)
Sorry for not specifying an example. The closing quotation (that I tried unsuccessfully to put into a block quote format) is a nice (ironic) place to start:
"Robert Lindsey has also suggested that Hofmann "stimulated a burst of historical inquiry regarding Joseph Smith's youthful enthusiasm for magic [that] did not wither after his conviction" despite "even harsher barriers to scholars' access to [LDS Church] archives… The Mark Hofmann affair had emboldened many scholars to penetrate deeper and deeper into recesses of the Mormon past that its most conservative leaders wanted left unexplored, and it was unlikely that those in the Church Administration Building would ever be able to contain fully the fires of intellectual curiosity that Hofmann had helped fan."[47]"
The phrases that I think don't fit with the goal of impartial language are:
These phrases portray the LDS admin as melodramatically opposed to a cadre of 'knowledge freedom fighters' in a situation likened to a firefighting crisis for the Church. Presented in Wikipedia---a site that is well-known for the admirable goal of making information as widely available as possible---Lindsey's melodramatic postures for the 2 groups become even more polarized.
I think a paraphrase of Lindsey's ideas would be more impartial and appropriate: "Robert Lindsey has also suggested that Hofmann's work encouraged other researchers to further explore aspects of LDS history. Not all these research efforts were successful as the LDS Church reacted to Hofmann's deception by implementing more strict controls on access to its archives. Nevertheless, scholars continue to seek historical information from the Church, in part because of Hofmann's forgeries.[47]"
What do you think? -- Sah65 ( talk) 18:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The NPOV topic is actually what I was taking as the starting point for my suggestions. Specifically, the section titled "Impartial Tone" seems to be directly relevant: "Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone." The aspects that are panache in a journalist's true-life-crime documentary, are, in the Wikipedia context, an inappropriate tone of voice. True, Lindsey may not be "disputing" directly with anyone in the excerpt, but I think the central element of this NPOV guideline is the "heated" quality. And I think Lindsay's choice of colorful diction is a good place to implement a summary.
I agree with you that adding content would be an even better way to improve the topic, so I'll look into that. But I don't think that approach reduces the value of revising for impartial tone. Sah65 ( talk) 21:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I definitely agree with you about our general in-expert-ness. :) However, this seems to put the 2 Wikipedia guidelines into contention. Specifically, if the POV-policy is correct and we're not qualified editors, then the Wiki-policy about summarizing heated disputes as impartial summaries is wrong. Contrariwise, if the NPOV-policy is correct, then the Wiki-policy about POV is wrong. How do we decide which one takes priority? (And, as an abstract quibble, if we're not qualified editors, then what right do we have to select 'this' excerpt from Lindsey's material rather than 'that' excerpt? That's an editorial decision on an even larger scale, right?)
Quibbling aside though, I did some Google-age. A quick search or 2 brought back some results. In addition to the impartial tone revisions, which of these 2 additions do you think would work best? I'm thinking the 2nd is more directly relevant.
1st:
In contrast to Lindsey's melodramatic presentation, John Tvedtnes, a scholar from BYU, notes that claims about the LDS Church "suppressing" documents may be overstated, whether prior to or after Hofmann's forgeries were exposed:
"But placing an historical document in a safe place hardly implies suppression. Burning the document would be a safer way of getting rid of negative evidence. Placing it in a vault only preserves it for future use. We have the example of the Joseph Smith papyri, which lay for decades in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City, only to be brought to the Church's attention by a professor doing research there. Yet no one has accused the Metropolitan of "suppressing" these documents! They were their guardian, just as the Church is the guardian of many documents."
Tvedtnes, John A. "Answering Mormon Scholars: A Response to Criticism of the Book Covering Up the Black Hole in the Book of Mormon, vol. 1." FARMS Review: Volume - 6, Issue - 2, Pages: 204-49. Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1994. < http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=6&num=2&id=162>
2nd:
Lindsey's melodramatic presentation in his 1988 book stands in contrast to a presentation concerning Hofmann given by Elder Dallin H. Oaks a year earlier. In this lecture, reprinted in the Ensign, Oaks discusses various allegations of "suppression" and explains the LDS Church's policies about restricting access. Oaks characterizes these policies as being similar to most "large archive" facilities, and he later mentions the Huntington Library in Pasadena, CA as a parallel.
Dallin H. Oaks, “Recent Events Involving Church History and Forged Documents,” Ensign, Oct 1987, 63.
Wrap-up:
I haven't read Richard E. Turley's _Victims: The LDS Church and the Mark Hofmann Case_, but I see it's currently cited in the Hofmann article. From the book's table of contents, it looks like one of the chapters may include some material about the "suppression" issues. Was it you that cited the Turley book? Do you recall any material in that book characterizing the Church's reactions after the forgeries / murders?
Sah65 ( talk) 22:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
It sounds like you're using "heated dispute" in reference to our conversation here. Sorry if I'm misreading that, but I can't imagine there being a run-of-the-mill difference of opinion in Lindsey's book, so it seems the reference is to our conversation. And I agree with that---there isn't a heated dispute between you and I. However I don't feel like you're reading my responses very carefully, but I'll chalk that up to our common situation of having other things to work on.
The larger question of what to do about the NPOV vs. POV is still unclear to me. Since you've got a good number of Barn Stars racked up (at least 3 times as many as me :) ), I'd hoped you could suggest a way to improve that aspect of Wikipedia, as well as the Hofmann page. Can anyone go in to the 5 Pillars pages and clarify the information there? Or do we have to send a message to someone with more authority?
It sounds like we're getting close to a consensus on the balancing quotation. I think that working the quotation from Elder Oaks into the Hofmann page would be good. When you say we can work together to add something in, do you mean that there are revisions you'd like to make to the draft text I included above?
Also, you noted the value of citing the quotation in a way that identifies the bias it is coming from. I agree. Along the same lines, I would like to add a parallel comment to the Lindsey's statement. His genre was clearly one more fixed on sales than on NPOV scholarship, an interest that would obviously motivate his choice of diction.
Sah65 ( talk) 21:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Hallo. The things I've been dodging caught up with me over the weekend. :)
I'm glad to hear that I haven't been coming across too much like a bull in a china shop. And I understand your point about the lack of disputation in the context of Lindsey's book, as well about highlighting Elder Oaks' promotional role re: Church matters. I'm not quite sold on the argument, but my concerns are more focused on the clarity of Wiki policy pages than the details of the Hofmann page. So I'll try to track down the correct approach for that. (Aren't newbies these days just so arrogant?)
As there wasn't a specific mention in your last comment about collaborating on further revisions to the sample text, I guess I'll just post a revised version of that text as a change to the page? Probably some time tomorrow.
Thanks for being so easy to work with, and for pointing out some of the key points for Wiki-work. You've probably already sensed that I've got an ulterior motive for this exercise. I teach college composition classes, usually focused on argument, and from some of the Talk pages I've read, it seemed like Wikipedia is an ideal place for students to engage in a real-time, low-stakes argument. I'm not sure how exactly I'd set up the assignment, but from this experience, it definitely seems viable. (Not all the people the students might encounter will be as courteous as you've been, I suppose, but it seems a fairly safe forum.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sah65 ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
I would be curious to know just how much money he owed to people/how much debt he was in (seeing as this was apparently a/the major reason why he started murdering). Also, who did he owe the money to??? Banks??? Mormons??? Thanks in advance to anybody that knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.142.17 ( talk) 22:26, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Let me deconstruct this edit:
"Prior to Lindsey's melodramatic description in his 1988 book"
"LDS Apostle Dallin H. Oaks had discussed the matter of Church records in a presentation at BYU in 1987. In this lecture (reprinted in the Ensign), Oaks discussed various allegations of "suppression" and explained the LDS Church's policies about restricting access."
"Oaks characterized these policies as being similar to most "large archive" facilities, specifically mentioning the Huntington Library in Pasadena, CA as a parallel."
I'm assuming that Sah65 also made nine anonymous changes on August 22. I've reverted them and then added back some material from Turley. Reasons for making changes should be described in edit summaries—of which anonymous gave none; it's polite to discuss major changes on the discussion page first; and it's considered bad form to use both a user name and an IP address to edit the same article.
I should also note at this point that although Richard Turley has written a peer-reviewed book about the Hofmann case published by the University of Illinois, he is a lawyer and the Assistant LDS Church Historian. So if his take on the subject differs markedly from other sources, we will have to mention that he writes from an LDS POV.-- John Foxe ( talk) 11:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
According to a Deseret News article just posted today;
SALT LAKE CITY — For the past 27 years, historians have identified William Edwards as a participant in the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre. But forensic document examiners now say the 1924 affidavit that implicated Edwards is a forgery linked to convicted bomber Mark Hofmann.
The affidavit was part of a collection of documents acquired in 1983 by the Utah Division of State History. It purported to be a notarized affidavit of Edwards — a confession of sorts. Edwards allegedly stated in the affidavit that in Sept. 1857 he "accompanied about 30 men and older boys to Mountain Meadows where, we were told, an Indian massacre of an emigrant train had been consummated, and our services needed to bury the dead."
Philip F. Notarianni, state history director, said the affidavit was acquired either from Hofmann directly or from Lyn Jacobs who often represented Hofmann. It was sold or traded to the society with letters from historian Charles Kelly, a legal document signed by the outlaw Matt Warner, a document signed by Brigham Young and papers of the first non-Mormon mayor of Salt Lake City, Montgomery Scott.
Well,
It looks like a number of anti-Mormon writers are going to have to revise their books one more time.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 20:33, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
I've removed a paragraph about newly discovered forgeries because most of the information is already included in the text, including mention of the fake Emily Dickinson poem. Nevertheless, I'd be more than happy to discuss what new information included here is worth incorporating in the text. On the Mountain Meadows affidavit, I think it'd be better to wait a bit longer to make sure there's a scholarly consensus and then put the decision in the notes rather than the text. Just because the discovery is new doesn't necessarily make it important.
Although Hofmann's statements and records have helped identify many of his forgeries, some may remain undetected in the historical record. [1] [2] Some forged documents were in use by scholars until being discovered, including an Emily Dickinson poem in 1997 and a Mountain Meadows Massacre affidavit in 2010. [3] [4] Further unauthenticated documents have been speculated to be potential Hofmann forgeries. [5] [6] [7] [8]
-- John Foxe ( talk) 19:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
References
I was checking up on an unrelated news article when I spotted this. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52289687-75/hofmann-church-lds-recording.html.csp
Apparently Mark Hofmann recorded his own 1981 phone call that attempted to scam an LDS church though this article does not say what happened as a result of that forged document nor the scam attempt.
Also - are pictures one of which is a Utah State Prison fingerprint card for Mark Hofmann that shows the missing middle finger of his right hand. I know there was speculation which hand had been damaged in the explosion. In the spot where that fingerprint should go is a note "Missing 2 joints" and also the note "Middle right finger missing." Oddly, while there is a fair amount of identifying information on the card they do not include his date of birth. The fingerprint card is signed "Mark W. H-- Marc Kupper| talk" - is that a forgery? :-) -- Marc Kupper| talk 20:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Given that we have an image of one of Hoffmann's forgeries in this article, and that this image was recently moved to Wikimedia Commons, is there any concern about the copyright status of the document depicted? The author of that material (Hofmann) is still living, and so presumably he could hold the copyright over the material. I don't know if forgeries (after they are exposed as such) are covered by copyright law; do we have an issue we need to be concerned about here? -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 19:08, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Can the infobox entry be amended so it is clear the dates 1979-1987 refer to the marriage to Doralee Olds "Dorie" Hofmann.
Perhaps some of the talk page should be archived? Jackiespeel ( talk) 09:22, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Mark Hofmann. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
The article says nothing about Hofmann's occupation prior to producing master forgeries. How did he support his family, how did he develop his forgery skills, and how did he learn how to make effective bombs? — BarrelProof ( talk) 18:01, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:23, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mark Hofmann article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a freely-licensed image or photograph be
included in this article to replace copyrighted images in order to better comply with our
policy for non-free content. Many copyright-free image sources are listed at
Wikimedia Commons, or you could create your own. Alternatively, you may
request permission from the copyright holder of the original images to release them under a free license. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
While serving my mission, I came across a copy of BYU magazine that discussed how Hofmann produced his documents and how they fooled so many experts. I found it fascinating. Anyone have access to material that discusses this aspect of his work? — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:19, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that you read the book "The Poet and the Murderer". It focuses in great detail on how he created many of his forgeries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.55.187 ( talk • contribs) 17:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
How about adding references to the following?
Forensic Files "Postal Mortem"
Crimelibrary article about the Mormon forgery murders — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 ( talk) 16:02, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
would it be unreasonable to add as trivia that he possibly inspired the law and order criminal intent episode titled 'the saint' (which ironically, I've just found out is being rescreened locally tonight) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.84.83.158 ( talk) 09:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
I was just gonna leave a comment about that episode and it was already done.Im gonna add it. The Clydelishes Clyde 20:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The claim that the McLellin collection was found in Texas seems to have been added by a computer at BYU on the 5th of August 2006. It is inaccurate. The LDS church bought it in 1908 and lost it in its archives. It was rediscovered during the Hofmann investigation as reveal in Turley’s book Victims. [1] The McLellin Collection may deserve to have its own page.-- Fmatmi ( talk) 23:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
The false claim that the collection was found in Texas remains in the article. Page 213 of Victims: The LDS Church and the Mark Hofmann Case, By Richard E. Turley (published in 1992?) explains the error in the 1988 book referenced in the article. The LDS church bought the Collection in 1908. The collection and its existence was lost in the Church's archives until the Hofmann investigation. -- Fmatmi ( talk) 02:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
"Texas Papers Not Quite 'McLellin Collecion,'" read the headline to the Deseret News article on the subject that afternoon. The article quoted a state government archivist who said of the collection, "It really should be called the Traughber collection, because the bulk of the material is (J. L.) Traughber's notes on McLellin." The article reported that the collection apparently did not contain McLellin's journals, as had been expected, nor any other material from the 1830's. --page 213 Victims
While the Tanners did question the salamander letter's authenticity, I think it's a stretch to say they were critics of Hofmann himself. Their publications reproduced many of Hofmann's claims; for example, his claim to have purchased the McLellin collection. I've therefore narrowed the language dealing with the Tanners' skepticism and moved it into the section discussing the salamander letter. Mgy401 1912 ( talk) 01:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
While Hofmann claimed that the explosion that injured him was a suicide attempt, this claim should be taken with a grain of salt. He may have made the bomb for other purposes, and merely mishandled it. (See Lindsey on this point.) I have therefore inserted the word “alleged” in
(and of course restored the moveable ‘n’ to “an”). — SlamDiego ←T 21:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Under the heading, Other Mormon Forgeries, it says that Gordon B. Hinckley was the leader of the church. He was not the president of the church at the time. Spencer W. Kimball was. Shoreu ( talk) 03:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
After looking through your contributions, I realize that you're on some kind of quest against the Mormons. I fully expect you to re-undo my (completely valid and style-appropriate) edit. I don't really care what you have against them, but it's disheartening that you allow your bias to get the better of you. It's as silly as the Packers fans who make disingenuous edits to the Brett Favre article. Or the 9-11 "truthers" who are constantly nitpicking every article related to the Bush administration. I hope you are personally satisfied by your time, but you're doing the Wikipedia community a disservice. ∅BRIT 15:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello! I am glad to see that there are two editors excited about improving the encyclopedia. I have read your comments, and will offer an opinion in a little while. In the meantime, it would be helpful if you could both briefly state your position and concerns, and the independent, secondary sources that you believe to support your position. Also, I would advise against anything that may seem to be irrelevant to the subject under consideration or could be construed as personal mischaracterizations - let's focus specifically on this article! Thanks again, — Matheuler 02:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
This is indeed a complex question in some ways. In summary, I agree with Mr. Foxe that a mention of the independent secondary source regarding the subject should be mentioned. Since Foxe has provided a published source to back up his claim, it now does fall upon another user to provide another source that would dispute the the initial claim. I shall have to ponder a compromise solution, perhaps along the lines of "Some sources, including Mr. So-and-so, believe that Mr. Such-and-such was fooled by these forgeries." In any event, I must state that I understand both sides of this question, but only Mr. Foxe has provided published secondary sources to verify his claims, so I must agree with him, in at least a limited sense. — Matheuler 00:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
"No one, of course, can be certain that Martin Harris wrote the document. However, at this point we accept the judgment of the examiner that there is no indication that it is a forgery. This does not preclude the possibility that it may have been forged at a time when the Church had many enemies." [3]
These fooled not only members of the First Presidency — notably Gordon B. Hinckley...
Interesting to find you here, John Foxe. Please remind us all what your POV on the LDS Church was before you began contributing here, you never did identify it on the other page I saw you at. And please, simply stating you are not LDS does not identify POV.
My real concern here is that this article is about a cold-blooded murderer, but the authors of the page have designed a scope and sequence which is more celebratory of his life and deception than should be ascribed to a convicted murderer. Notice the article leads up to and ends with Hoffman's "Legacy." It's disturbing to think that some individuals hate Mormons so much they would exalt a murderer just so long as it satisfied their end of embarrassing Mormons. It's tantamount to calling Hitler a modern day Robin Hood because in some instances he stole from wealthy Jews and gave to poor unemployed non-Jewish citizens. Offensive, tasteless, sick. While hate may be a strong emotion, it is still a weakness.
Another sick element to this article is the pointed finger at the leadership of the Church. As one of the footnotes suggests the apostles "...were seers, endowed with the power of discernment, who, according to the Book of Mormon could 'translate all records that are of ancient date.' The attempted point here is that these men are frauds or failures because Hoffman "tricked" them. This is like blaming the victim of a mugging because they were out late. Tactless and immature. The point that is ignored is that;
1. The men involved held the authority as seers and revelators, but it has always been practice and doctrine that only the the President of the Church exercises these authorities for the entire Church.
2. Though an individual holds Priesthood authority they likely do not receive revelation 24/7. Revelation often comes only after serious reflection and prayer (D&C 138). I am sure that even the Prophet of the Church has purchased moldy bread. Remember that the apostles of Christ (Peter, James, John,...) needed ongoing instruction from Jesus Christ as they would miss important spiritual matters from time to time. And since they were flawed I guess that means we have to throw out the Bible? Not me.
There seems to be a natural selection of the "facts" here to include only those which exploit LDS leaders or point out their errors. Perhaps more of a focus on the creep Hofmann is, the "legacy" (I would use the term 'fallout' and not 'legacy') of the impact and challenges overcome by the family members of Hofmann's murder victims, or even his behavior in prison. But it seems the editors here are far more interested in dredging the harbor than going upstream for the real story.
I'll say it again, hate may be a strong emotion, but it is still a weakness. Or in the words of Longfellow, "For hate is strong/And mocks the song/Of Peace on Earth/Good will to men." Canadiandy1 ( talk) 21:56, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
If Hofmann is more "Wikipedia Notable" for forgery than murder, that merely reveals an inherent problem with Wikipedia. Last I checked common law provides greater punishment for murder than forgery. And I don't think that is out of step with common social norms and understanding.
199.60.41.9 ( talk) 21:29, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
"Skilled forger who killed ... people?" Forgery is a skill? Hmmm, and is bank robbery a craft, and breaking and entering an art, and is murder a science? "Killed?" Cancer kills people. Hofmann 'Murdered' people. If your thrill at Hofmann's forgery success is blinding your judgment, perhaps you shouldn't be contributing. 199.60.41.9 ( talk) 21:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
"Skilled," "succeeded,"personality,"unassuming scholar,"sweet," "hard-working,"highly intelligent,"dedicated..." Wow, John. Thanks for including those accolades. Maybe we should forget the fact he's a cold-blooded murderer and see if we can't start up a fan website. Your point in presenting this information? Are we trying to 'Robin Hood' this guy? Your agenda here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadiandy1 ( talk • contribs) 15:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Foxe, I don't question whether Hamilton is an authority or not. You can find authorities who will argue all kinds of things. What I find intriguing is your selection of sources (nearly always ones that are cynical of the LDS faith, and almost never ones which are respectful of that same faith). But then when LDS people find alternative sources you quickly cry LDS POV. I don't question your sources, but I do question which sources you keep finding. Please explain what it is specifically that drives you to attack the LDS faith in this manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadiandy1 ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I've gone that route. Problem is, even if I had nothing better to do than spend weeks researching a dark character such as Hofmann (like reading Stephen King while listening to Leonard Cohen for 3 weeks in a row)once I found sources they would be attacked as LDS POV and not "Prominent" so they would be quickly dismissed. My major question remains unanswered, what is it specifically that drives you to attack the LDS faith in this manner? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadiandy1 ( talk • contribs) 15:07, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Ouch. Fine, Rich jj.
First, I do not have an ongoing battle with John Foxe, his contributions maybe, but not him personally. The fact that he is the foremost contributor (senior editor?) responsible for two articles which I see as hostile to the LDS faith explains my frequent dialogue and questioning of his positions and contributions, but that does not translate to a lack of assumed good faith or good will.
Second, it looks like you're already out there protecting LDS sensitivity so I can leave it all to you now. I must assume in good faith that you have more experience with this topic and Foxe's POV and that you will better represent common LDS perspective. Since your polite reproval I am now left with little option other than taking on your POV or accepting the "balance" of the article. I figure rather than try and take on both you and John Foxe, I'll defer to you both. If you want to own this one, have at 'er. But please, for future reference, just because you are not very offended by the tenor of the article does not mean other LDS aren't. I just anticipate that the majority of LDS members I am familiar with would be heavily offended by someone painting Gordon B. Hinckley as the dupe of a fraudulent murderer. Especially if that murderer was given recognition (you call it negative, I see positive) at his expense.
Third, you take issue with me attributing the glorification of Hitler to the glorification of Hofmann. The only way anyone would be offended by such a statement is if they were part of the glorification process which people seem to be distancing themselves from anyway making the point moot. I will apologize if anyone read my words to mean anyone contributing loves Hitler. That is not at all what I meant. But I will not retract my feelings that both Hitler and Hofmann are dark, evil, manipulative men. And so anyone glorifying either is making a serious error in moral judgment.
But since you are so quick to pounce, I will step aside and let you have it. You defend it, you can own it.
I have better things to do. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 01:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Thank you for your courtesy, jj Rich. I apologize for jumping into this article full guns blaring. What I need to remember is that on the Joseph Smith article I have been around and established a somewhat respectable presence (I know I have ruffled feathers but I believe I did it with integrity, and the civility one would expect from someone highly offended by a skeptical article). I think you will find me blunt, but fair. What I won't do is try to suppress my beliefs for the sake of civility. I will try not to be offensive in offending erroneous, disrespectful, or undignified information. You will find I stick up for Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Jews, Amish, Moslems, Lutherans, and Seventh-Day Adventists and most others) with the same level of zeal. The reality is that I post primarily on LDS based topics because it is more interesting to me. But I would expect to find Lutherans sticking up for their faith on the article about Luther.
Now, if I could reiterate my main beef here. It is not that I ignore the fact Gordon Hinckley or any other LDS leaders are not fallible, it is that the scope of the article reads to me in places like "Gotcha" journalism. Heck, President Hinckley probably picked his nose, broke wind, buried his neighbour's cat in the local elementary school flowerbed when he was 17, and swore at one of his kids just like the rest of us (okay maybe the cat part was just me and I apologize to animal rights people, the cat was already dead, and it was winter and I had younger sisters who would have been devestated, is this mic on). But to fixate on Hinckley's 'mistake' (I don't call it a mistake as I have always understood we as citizens are only guilty of a crime or mistake if we act with guilty conscience) with the implication he should have known because he was a prophet? Someone, somewhere chose that text specifically over all the other information available. And on its face it is unfair, and appears targeted to defame. Not very in keeping with assumed good will.
So please, if you would like to do some good, take on the disrespect shown in this article. I apologize if I frequently use Holocaust parallels. I am deeply moved by the horrible injustices inflicted on Jewish people under the Nazi regime. And so one way I try to show respect for the is by ascribing information to a common litmus test that asks the simple question, "If you replace the subject topic with the phrase 'Jewish,' would it be acceptable? For example, if I read an article making the statement, "American President Bob Bobson, a Lutheran, was elected to office in 2012." I would ask myself how it would appear if the article read, "American President Bob Bobson, a Jew, was elected to office in 2012." All of a sudden I see the statement from a more fair, neutral perspective. Suddenly I see that it could easily appear condescending to Lutherans.
Forgive me if I take offense at this article. You may cry I am being too Politically Correct, but I think that tolerance of others is the new expectation. Please, ask yourself if this article would be as protected if it focused the same level of skepticism on a group of Jewish people or their leaders. I am not arguing Mormons have the same experience as Jewish Holocaust survivors and tehir families. I am arguing ALL groups of people, and their faiths, should be treated with the highest level of dignity and respect. NO group of people should be defined by their enemies and detractors. That includes Mormons.
So if Wikipedia is more concerned with Wikicode and Wikipolicy than it is with human dignity and tolerance, I will be a voice here to call out against it. I'll do it for Lutherans, and Catholics, and members of the Bahai faith, and I take offense at having my POV questioned when I do it as it relates to my own faith.
Apology humbly, sincerely, and respectfully accepted.
Peace
199.60.41.15 ( talk) 04:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
John Foxe, you tidied up the talk page? I don't like it. It makes this look like the discussion is about me. If you had noticed the discussion had been dead for a few days and was likely on its way out anyway. I'd prefer a revert.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 14:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
The title wasn't the issue, but whatever.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 06:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
After reading through the FAIR LDS site at
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mark_Hofmann/Church_reaction_to_forgeries
I was fascinated by the problems with the evidences in the article here.
It provides evidences that Hinckley was very skeptical at first, that the claims of the Church hiding a document are unsubstantiated and originate solely from Hofmann (clearly an unreliable witness), and it also reveals a clear media bias from journalists trying to make money off a sensational (as in titillating) story.
So who has given FAIR LDS a fair shake? Editors here are willing to give an accused murderer the benefit of the doubt, why not the Mormons? Their evidences are well referenced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadiandy1 ( talk • contribs) 07:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Another excellent article (by Dallin H. Oakes himself) laying out the unreliability of much of the media reporting and their own acknowledgment of it is found at. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=309b71ec9b17b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav
For serious and fair-minded researchers these are must read articles.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 07:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
"According to Hofmann, Hinckley filed the letter away in a safe in the First Presidency's offices." Canadiandy1 ( talk) 15:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Thanks. As to your offer of anything else, yeah. Since so much of the reporting was incorrect (based on the manipulations of Hofmann) perhaps you could read the articles I identified and include a section on the false information lingering over this history.
Thanks in advance, 199.60.41.15 ( talk) 02:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
John,
The point here is not to persuade you to take sides on the issue. It is to present facts and research. You mean you don't agree with any of the evidence? There's an awful lot of research value there. To simply dismiss it as "a phantasmagoria of the apologists" seems unfair.
And I don't see the truth in your statement that the Church was "embarrassed by its dealings." In the article it makes it quite clear that the Church was actually quite prudent in its dealings, and was quite wary as evidenced in Hofmann's increasingly reduced offers. In fact I suspect if Hofmann hadn't been found out that New Mormon Historians would now be attacking the Church for systemically dismissing evidence which might paint them in an unflattering light.
I will agree with you that the Church was defamed, but not embarrassed (by Hofmann's actions and inaccurate media reporting). And I will also agree that with 20/20 hindsight they would likely have acted differently. But it is ethically unfair to judge an individual or group who was acting in good faith and without a guilty conscience.
I don't understand your closed position to some very well referenced facts and information. Remember, whether you like Oakes or not, he was at one time a likely candidate for the US Supreme Court. That seems to validate Oakes as a capable and reliable researcher in any matter and so I suggest he should not be so quickly dismissed. 99.199.139.154 ( talk) 03:23, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Sorry all. I have not been posting here for a bit, and will not be again, because I've been "Newcomer-Bitten" just a few too many times. I have now been called a 'troll' (I feel unfairly) by Tedder and seeing he is a senior admin to the two articles I am most interested in, I know when I'm not wanted so I'll step aside till he's gone or some better contributors like NoBrit can bring some balance to these articles. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Canadiandy1 ( talk) 02:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Discussion not focused on improving the article |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
John, You wrote the Church was "knuckleheaded" for dealing with Hofmann, "without investigating his loyalty to the Church." The fact they did actually reflects a higher ethic and not foolishness. Contrary to what your opinion is, the Church does not use its membership records in some Orwellian way. Like their auditing practices, they hold a much higher standard than is found in most business organizations. In the eyes of most, this is a good thing. Are you suggesting because a man was selling them historical documents they should have dug into his personal life to find out if he was a security risk, or worse to find out if was faithful enough? They acted in a highly dignified manner and you are trying to judge them according to hindsight and outside of the context. Again, if your POV or opinion are so biased against the Church, you should consider removing yourself from editing on this one. As to your seatbelt analogy. Yes, you would be guilty of not wearing a seatbelt. But if you had crashed into a tree because of an ice patch a fair judge would not hold you responsible for the damage to the tree. And still, I don't see what the Church did immorally or unethically. 99.199.139.154 ( talk) 16:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
John Foxe, the only time the Church follows Church Discipline (and their investigation procedures) measures is when there is clear evidence (or a reliable report) of serious transgression. While other Churches, according to you, may investigate their members regularly, member investigations are actually quite a rare procedure. That the Tanners are extremely skeptical and were right on this one does not mean they were more "inspired." Seems like the Church extended to Hofmann (though not necessarily his commodity), initially, the same assumed Good Will Wikipedia prides itself on. Reminds me of the judicial assumption of innocence until proven guilty. The logic of your argument seems a little twisted to throw discredit on the LDS Church administration. But, I'll drop this argument now as I shut out the lights for good. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 04:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Did I ever call your Church leaders or religion deceptive? I'll finish by telling you that I have been keenly interested in the men who lead this Church. I have observed that they are almost without exception men who; 1. Were charitable, honest, and respected individuals within their own communities. 2. Serve with no remuneration (most gave up high incomes to serve at their own expense). 3. Possess great intellect and moral virtue. How shameful to assault their character in such an indefensible way, and to use the Holy Bible as a tool in such an un-Christian assault? You don't have to be a Christian to come to the conclusion that you have a whole lot of soul searching to do, and hopefully some day you'll come to grips with your deep-seated, and obsessive hatred of Mormons. Seriously, counseling might help. I can recognize that my respect for these men (including the Prophet Joseph Smith) may affect my neutrality on this topic. That is why I remove myself from editing. But edit or not, at least my bias wasn't grounded in hatred or contempt. You offered me an olive branch once, though this looks like you've changed your mind. The olive branch I offer is the offering of forgiveness. I anticipate at a future day you will come to terms with your anti-Mormon obsession and feel a great regret over the misery you brought to so many. And when you do, you will have my unqualified forgiveness. I offer it in advance, as this is the last time I will be around this block. I'm tired of the bash-apologize-bash cycle. Regretfully, Canadiandy1 ( talk) 04:04, 4 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
No, John, what you said was, ",,,the Church injured itself through its own credulousness, in the words of 2 Timothy 3. 13, "deceiving and being deceived." Here's an idea. Next time you are talking to your Mormon bishop acquaintances (I notice you didn't use the word 'friends') tell them Joseph Smith was an adulterous liar, and that Gordon B. Hinckley was a liar and that Thomas Monson is a false prophet. Tell them that you are devoted to destroying their religion. Then ask them over for Easter dinner. Let me know how they respond. Mormons are generally quite a forgiving and tolerant people, but I'm curious. Not about whether they'll take you up on your offer, but what you'll do with all the leftovers. Please don't take their courtesy as a justification for the mean-spirited things you have posted and the work you have undertaken to undermine their religion. I am sorry I have to be so blunt, but you don't seem to get what you are doing. I don't understand how you could have so many Mormon friends, and then dedicate your life to trashing their religion. You know, I had the Jehovah's Witnesses at my door three days ago. I accepted their tract, thanked them for their faith and for the moral lives they lead, and found a couple points of doctrine I knew we could agree on (i.e. celebrating the life of Christ every day of the year). Finding common ground, respecting other faiths, commending good works, and speaking no ill of others (in public or private) just seemed to be the right thing to do. I am not trying to make myself sound any better than other people, because I truly think most people do the same. You may call it sympathizing with Mormon deceivers, I think others just call it common courtesy. Try it. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 15:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
The Olive Branch was only removed as I closed down my page. I also removed several comments from individuals friendly to my beliefs. To return to your cynicism, you claim it is fact that the Church acted deceitfully. Then you admit you have no proof to the fact. So if it is unprovable, offensive, and merely opinion, why say it? In your Churchill quote note the phrase, "When you HAVE to kill a man..." . No one is holding a gun to your head to make you attack the Mormon faith. I believe in the United States you have, "The right to remain silent." Canadiandy1 ( talk) 19:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
Can't get rid of me fast enough, eh? I'm only here finishing up loose threads (pun intended). If you'd backed up a verse you'd have read, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." It would be expected that these men who are living lives of fidelity, integrity, and compassion towards people of all faiths and cultures, would experience persecution. The shame is that it comes not from non-believers, but from fellow Christians. My Dad (a non-Mormon) tells me of the bumper-sticker he read which stated simply, 'Jesus, save us from the Christians.' I just wish this article could be saved from your clearly biased POV. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 05:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
It seems to me that most other faiths have been quite respectful to the LDS Church, as they, from a Christian perspective, see the good we do in the world. The millions and millions in famine relief, our care for the poor and needy, our strong stand for moral issues which affect all people. As you go about "despis[ing] those that are good" I suspect you are not representative of most within the Christian community. As most Christians would say, your actions are mighty un-neighborly. 207.216.63.45 ( talk) 18:09, 5 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
You win again Tedder. Canadiandy1 ( talk) 20:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy |
As a newbie, coming directly from the 5 Pillars discussion ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Impartial_tone), I would suggest that the Influence section of the Mark Hofmann could be more impartial. Specifically, the quotations presented seem to be present to take highlight the sensational language used therein. I understand that is often the purpose of using quotations, but it seems a more impartial method would be to summarize / paraphrase these descriptions of Hofmann's influence.
I'll try to remember to check back tomorrow for a response, but this is a dodge from things I ought to be doing, and even as I type, the guilt is building. :)
Best, Sah65 ( talk) 22:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
G'day. I'm not sure if this is an instance of paranoia or obsessiveness, but I'm back, in spite of your sound advice. :)
Sorry for not specifying an example. The closing quotation (that I tried unsuccessfully to put into a block quote format) is a nice (ironic) place to start:
"Robert Lindsey has also suggested that Hofmann "stimulated a burst of historical inquiry regarding Joseph Smith's youthful enthusiasm for magic [that] did not wither after his conviction" despite "even harsher barriers to scholars' access to [LDS Church] archives… The Mark Hofmann affair had emboldened many scholars to penetrate deeper and deeper into recesses of the Mormon past that its most conservative leaders wanted left unexplored, and it was unlikely that those in the Church Administration Building would ever be able to contain fully the fires of intellectual curiosity that Hofmann had helped fan."[47]"
The phrases that I think don't fit with the goal of impartial language are:
These phrases portray the LDS admin as melodramatically opposed to a cadre of 'knowledge freedom fighters' in a situation likened to a firefighting crisis for the Church. Presented in Wikipedia---a site that is well-known for the admirable goal of making information as widely available as possible---Lindsey's melodramatic postures for the 2 groups become even more polarized.
I think a paraphrase of Lindsey's ideas would be more impartial and appropriate: "Robert Lindsey has also suggested that Hofmann's work encouraged other researchers to further explore aspects of LDS history. Not all these research efforts were successful as the LDS Church reacted to Hofmann's deception by implementing more strict controls on access to its archives. Nevertheless, scholars continue to seek historical information from the Church, in part because of Hofmann's forgeries.[47]"
What do you think? -- Sah65 ( talk) 18:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The NPOV topic is actually what I was taking as the starting point for my suggestions. Specifically, the section titled "Impartial Tone" seems to be directly relevant: "Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone." The aspects that are panache in a journalist's true-life-crime documentary, are, in the Wikipedia context, an inappropriate tone of voice. True, Lindsey may not be "disputing" directly with anyone in the excerpt, but I think the central element of this NPOV guideline is the "heated" quality. And I think Lindsay's choice of colorful diction is a good place to implement a summary.
I agree with you that adding content would be an even better way to improve the topic, so I'll look into that. But I don't think that approach reduces the value of revising for impartial tone. Sah65 ( talk) 21:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I definitely agree with you about our general in-expert-ness. :) However, this seems to put the 2 Wikipedia guidelines into contention. Specifically, if the POV-policy is correct and we're not qualified editors, then the Wiki-policy about summarizing heated disputes as impartial summaries is wrong. Contrariwise, if the NPOV-policy is correct, then the Wiki-policy about POV is wrong. How do we decide which one takes priority? (And, as an abstract quibble, if we're not qualified editors, then what right do we have to select 'this' excerpt from Lindsey's material rather than 'that' excerpt? That's an editorial decision on an even larger scale, right?)
Quibbling aside though, I did some Google-age. A quick search or 2 brought back some results. In addition to the impartial tone revisions, which of these 2 additions do you think would work best? I'm thinking the 2nd is more directly relevant.
1st:
In contrast to Lindsey's melodramatic presentation, John Tvedtnes, a scholar from BYU, notes that claims about the LDS Church "suppressing" documents may be overstated, whether prior to or after Hofmann's forgeries were exposed:
"But placing an historical document in a safe place hardly implies suppression. Burning the document would be a safer way of getting rid of negative evidence. Placing it in a vault only preserves it for future use. We have the example of the Joseph Smith papyri, which lay for decades in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City, only to be brought to the Church's attention by a professor doing research there. Yet no one has accused the Metropolitan of "suppressing" these documents! They were their guardian, just as the Church is the guardian of many documents."
Tvedtnes, John A. "Answering Mormon Scholars: A Response to Criticism of the Book Covering Up the Black Hole in the Book of Mormon, vol. 1." FARMS Review: Volume - 6, Issue - 2, Pages: 204-49. Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1994. < http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=6&num=2&id=162>
2nd:
Lindsey's melodramatic presentation in his 1988 book stands in contrast to a presentation concerning Hofmann given by Elder Dallin H. Oaks a year earlier. In this lecture, reprinted in the Ensign, Oaks discusses various allegations of "suppression" and explains the LDS Church's policies about restricting access. Oaks characterizes these policies as being similar to most "large archive" facilities, and he later mentions the Huntington Library in Pasadena, CA as a parallel.
Dallin H. Oaks, “Recent Events Involving Church History and Forged Documents,” Ensign, Oct 1987, 63.
Wrap-up:
I haven't read Richard E. Turley's _Victims: The LDS Church and the Mark Hofmann Case_, but I see it's currently cited in the Hofmann article. From the book's table of contents, it looks like one of the chapters may include some material about the "suppression" issues. Was it you that cited the Turley book? Do you recall any material in that book characterizing the Church's reactions after the forgeries / murders?
Sah65 ( talk) 22:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
It sounds like you're using "heated dispute" in reference to our conversation here. Sorry if I'm misreading that, but I can't imagine there being a run-of-the-mill difference of opinion in Lindsey's book, so it seems the reference is to our conversation. And I agree with that---there isn't a heated dispute between you and I. However I don't feel like you're reading my responses very carefully, but I'll chalk that up to our common situation of having other things to work on.
The larger question of what to do about the NPOV vs. POV is still unclear to me. Since you've got a good number of Barn Stars racked up (at least 3 times as many as me :) ), I'd hoped you could suggest a way to improve that aspect of Wikipedia, as well as the Hofmann page. Can anyone go in to the 5 Pillars pages and clarify the information there? Or do we have to send a message to someone with more authority?
It sounds like we're getting close to a consensus on the balancing quotation. I think that working the quotation from Elder Oaks into the Hofmann page would be good. When you say we can work together to add something in, do you mean that there are revisions you'd like to make to the draft text I included above?
Also, you noted the value of citing the quotation in a way that identifies the bias it is coming from. I agree. Along the same lines, I would like to add a parallel comment to the Lindsey's statement. His genre was clearly one more fixed on sales than on NPOV scholarship, an interest that would obviously motivate his choice of diction.
Sah65 ( talk) 21:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Hallo. The things I've been dodging caught up with me over the weekend. :)
I'm glad to hear that I haven't been coming across too much like a bull in a china shop. And I understand your point about the lack of disputation in the context of Lindsey's book, as well about highlighting Elder Oaks' promotional role re: Church matters. I'm not quite sold on the argument, but my concerns are more focused on the clarity of Wiki policy pages than the details of the Hofmann page. So I'll try to track down the correct approach for that. (Aren't newbies these days just so arrogant?)
As there wasn't a specific mention in your last comment about collaborating on further revisions to the sample text, I guess I'll just post a revised version of that text as a change to the page? Probably some time tomorrow.
Thanks for being so easy to work with, and for pointing out some of the key points for Wiki-work. You've probably already sensed that I've got an ulterior motive for this exercise. I teach college composition classes, usually focused on argument, and from some of the Talk pages I've read, it seemed like Wikipedia is an ideal place for students to engage in a real-time, low-stakes argument. I'm not sure how exactly I'd set up the assignment, but from this experience, it definitely seems viable. (Not all the people the students might encounter will be as courteous as you've been, I suppose, but it seems a fairly safe forum.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sah65 ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
I would be curious to know just how much money he owed to people/how much debt he was in (seeing as this was apparently a/the major reason why he started murdering). Also, who did he owe the money to??? Banks??? Mormons??? Thanks in advance to anybody that knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.142.17 ( talk) 22:26, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Let me deconstruct this edit:
"Prior to Lindsey's melodramatic description in his 1988 book"
"LDS Apostle Dallin H. Oaks had discussed the matter of Church records in a presentation at BYU in 1987. In this lecture (reprinted in the Ensign), Oaks discussed various allegations of "suppression" and explained the LDS Church's policies about restricting access."
"Oaks characterized these policies as being similar to most "large archive" facilities, specifically mentioning the Huntington Library in Pasadena, CA as a parallel."
I'm assuming that Sah65 also made nine anonymous changes on August 22. I've reverted them and then added back some material from Turley. Reasons for making changes should be described in edit summaries—of which anonymous gave none; it's polite to discuss major changes on the discussion page first; and it's considered bad form to use both a user name and an IP address to edit the same article.
I should also note at this point that although Richard Turley has written a peer-reviewed book about the Hofmann case published by the University of Illinois, he is a lawyer and the Assistant LDS Church Historian. So if his take on the subject differs markedly from other sources, we will have to mention that he writes from an LDS POV.-- John Foxe ( talk) 11:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
According to a Deseret News article just posted today;
SALT LAKE CITY — For the past 27 years, historians have identified William Edwards as a participant in the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre. But forensic document examiners now say the 1924 affidavit that implicated Edwards is a forgery linked to convicted bomber Mark Hofmann.
The affidavit was part of a collection of documents acquired in 1983 by the Utah Division of State History. It purported to be a notarized affidavit of Edwards — a confession of sorts. Edwards allegedly stated in the affidavit that in Sept. 1857 he "accompanied about 30 men and older boys to Mountain Meadows where, we were told, an Indian massacre of an emigrant train had been consummated, and our services needed to bury the dead."
Philip F. Notarianni, state history director, said the affidavit was acquired either from Hofmann directly or from Lyn Jacobs who often represented Hofmann. It was sold or traded to the society with letters from historian Charles Kelly, a legal document signed by the outlaw Matt Warner, a document signed by Brigham Young and papers of the first non-Mormon mayor of Salt Lake City, Montgomery Scott.
Well,
It looks like a number of anti-Mormon writers are going to have to revise their books one more time.
Canadiandy1 ( talk) 20:33, 6 September 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy
I've removed a paragraph about newly discovered forgeries because most of the information is already included in the text, including mention of the fake Emily Dickinson poem. Nevertheless, I'd be more than happy to discuss what new information included here is worth incorporating in the text. On the Mountain Meadows affidavit, I think it'd be better to wait a bit longer to make sure there's a scholarly consensus and then put the decision in the notes rather than the text. Just because the discovery is new doesn't necessarily make it important.
Although Hofmann's statements and records have helped identify many of his forgeries, some may remain undetected in the historical record. [1] [2] Some forged documents were in use by scholars until being discovered, including an Emily Dickinson poem in 1997 and a Mountain Meadows Massacre affidavit in 2010. [3] [4] Further unauthenticated documents have been speculated to be potential Hofmann forgeries. [5] [6] [7] [8]
-- John Foxe ( talk) 19:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
References
I was checking up on an unrelated news article when I spotted this. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52289687-75/hofmann-church-lds-recording.html.csp
Apparently Mark Hofmann recorded his own 1981 phone call that attempted to scam an LDS church though this article does not say what happened as a result of that forged document nor the scam attempt.
Also - are pictures one of which is a Utah State Prison fingerprint card for Mark Hofmann that shows the missing middle finger of his right hand. I know there was speculation which hand had been damaged in the explosion. In the spot where that fingerprint should go is a note "Missing 2 joints" and also the note "Middle right finger missing." Oddly, while there is a fair amount of identifying information on the card they do not include his date of birth. The fingerprint card is signed "Mark W. H-- Marc Kupper| talk" - is that a forgery? :-) -- Marc Kupper| talk 20:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Given that we have an image of one of Hoffmann's forgeries in this article, and that this image was recently moved to Wikimedia Commons, is there any concern about the copyright status of the document depicted? The author of that material (Hofmann) is still living, and so presumably he could hold the copyright over the material. I don't know if forgeries (after they are exposed as such) are covered by copyright law; do we have an issue we need to be concerned about here? -- 208.81.184.4 ( talk) 19:08, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Can the infobox entry be amended so it is clear the dates 1979-1987 refer to the marriage to Doralee Olds "Dorie" Hofmann.
Perhaps some of the talk page should be archived? Jackiespeel ( talk) 09:22, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Mark Hofmann. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
The article says nothing about Hofmann's occupation prior to producing master forgeries. How did he support his family, how did he develop his forgery skills, and how did he learn how to make effective bombs? — BarrelProof ( talk) 18:01, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:23, 30 April 2023 (UTC)