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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The van Meytens portrait depicts Maria Josepha of Austria, not Maria Antonia. That's how it's presented at Schönbrunn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.7.75.30 ( talk) 16:56, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
In the section titled "The French Revolution before Varennes," the final paragraph before Mirabeau mentions "Le Godmiché Royal" (which I found a copy of here: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k56707s/f1.image that could be cited, or at least listed) and states that a person called "Lady Sophie Farrell" was alleged to be the queen's lover in this publication. However, I am unable to find any further information on this "Lady Sophie Farrell." Even "Le Godmiché Royal" doesn't seem to mention her by name (though I am rusty on my eighteenth century French). This section needs a citation.
Additionally, the final sentence in the second paragraph under "Trial and execution" contradicts itself by saying that the reaction of the mothers in the room comforted Marie Antoinette since they were not sympathetic to her. It seems like it should be that they were NOT comforting because they lacked sympathy, or they were comforting and sympathetic, both. I don't know which it is in this case. 66.86.231.254 ( talk) 05:03, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
In the section about the diamond necklace scandal, there is a sentence which begins with this: "Marie Antoinette, who had insisted on the arrest of the Cardinal was dealt a heavy personal blow," SUGGESTED EDIT: add comma just after "Cardinal"
Earlier in that same paragraph, I find this in parentheses: "except de La Motte and Réaux de Villette who managed to flee" SUGGESTED EDIT: assuming both of those people fled, insert comma just after "Villette", and consider inserting "both" just after "who"
In the preceding paragraph, I find "The main actors of the scandal" and "Others involved". I suggest you review those sentences with the view of changing some commas to semicolons. There may be some cases in the listings where the existing ", ___ ," construct is a description rather than a distinct person, and you should be using a semicolon instead of a comma at the end of such construct when that happens.
In the section about the French Revolution before Varennes, there is a phrase "remained by the king whose power was gradually being taken away". SUGGESTED EDIT: add comma after "king".
I find "After the death of her brother Joseph in 1790, his successor, Leopold". SUGGESTED EDIT: Insert comma after "Leopold". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.102.56.146 ( talk) 20:48, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
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my request is to remove a word because it is a mistake in the text - it is in 'marie antoinette' under '9 trial and execution' and there last sentence first paragraph: "....their reaction brought her comfort since these women were not sympathetic to her.[197][198]" - the word "not' has to be removed! it distorts the sense of what is said in this sentence. Nurkorrigieren ( talk) 01:54, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
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}} 1.22.33.240 ( talk) 06:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
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This article can be congratulated for pointing out that there is no evidence that Marie Antionette ever said "Let them eat cake" or "Let them eat brioche". Vorbee ( talk) 19:55, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Given that she was Austrian by birth, a Habsburg indeed, it would be more authentic to refer to her as Maria Antonia. Her ancestry section is completely blank.§ Smlark ( talk) 17:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
While it was entertaining to read about how poor Marie had her sensitive little hands bound roughly behind her back, how she tragically had smoke blown into her face by a guard, or -gasp- had to ride in an OPEN cart on the way to the guillotine instead of a dignified carriage, I think it's pretty obvious a huge portion of this article has been written by people who fetishize royalty. This is a person who doubtlessly would have been willing to brutally torture and execute tens of thousands if it meant maintaining her power and privilege. It is possible to acknowledge the abuse she has received without desperately trying to make people sympathise with her (like say the section on Muammar Gaddafi's death does, who has endured a significantly more violent and humiliating end) 2A02:2F0A:C412:7E00:55CF:BFD:5CDD:1B4A ( talk) 10:34, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be one "and" too many here.
Who was this well-known Lady Sophie Farrell? A quick web search turns up only this page (and a copy of it). Her title is given improperly: if she was a baroness she'd be Lady Farrell; a Lady Sophie is the daughter of an earl-or-higher. — Tamfang ( talk) 18:17, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Thewickedfae, first, are you Aubmn, who was indefinitely blocked by Bishonen years ago? Secondly, regarding edits like this and this, you need to cite the exact page number for the sources you are using to support your material. You should not be engaging in WP:Synthesis. And, third, it's best that you are honest about whether or not you are Aubmn. Also, there is no need to WP:Ping me if you reply. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 01:55, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
I used the visual editor to add sources, so if it said pages= as opposed to page= then there must have been an error while I was editing. The visual editor plays up on me sometimes, I've noticed. I will fix this. Btw, I posted on your talk page before seeing I had a notification. I'd left the window open while I was away doing something. Sorry about that and thanks for the information and replying. Still learning obviously. Thewickedfae ( talk) 01:43, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Bonjour
Flyer22 Frozen! just read a note on my talk page on 29 February stating that my name was mentioned on this page. You are correct: I have not been on wiki for quite a few months because there is also life outside en.fr.de.wikis and others!
Reading the various contributions to wiki.en by Thewickedfae leads me to believe that he/she is not our unforgettable Sockpuppet Aubmn of years past. Of course, it is only a feeling on my part. However, the subjects he/she treats & the language used - plus his/her knowledge of French in various small details - lead me to believe that contributor Thewickedfae is not a Sockpuppet. Naturally, I may be mistaken, and only future will tell.
Best to all & aurevoir. -- Blue Indigo ( talk) 15:49, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Hello. I am thinking about adding a new section before the "Legacy" section on Marie Antoinette's page. I have put the new section below. Please feel free to give any feedback and/or suggestions for improvement. Thanks.
== Style and public reception == Due to her royal status as princess and queen, Marie Antoinette consistently dressed in luxurious and expensive clothes and spent exorbitantly on hair and style.[1] When she relocated to France to marry Louis XVI, her style changed dramatically from the fashion of Austria to fit the fashion of France.[1] A number of scholars have argued that Marie Antoinette used fashion as a way to express herself.[1][2] From gaudy and flamboyant dresses and hairstyles to natural and earth-toned looks, Marie Antoinette faced harsh criticism for nearly everything that she wore.[2] In recent decades Marie Antoinette has been seen as a fashion icon and has inspired fashion designers, celebrities, and others to imitate her styles on and off the runway.[1]
As a member of the French court, Marie Antoinette was expected to adopt any and all customs of the court, including attire and hairstyles.[1][3] Dresses worn in French court included form-fitting corsets, large hoop skirts, and fabric that had ruffles, lace, jewels, and other decorations.[1] She believed it was incumbent on Marie Antoinette to dress like the French, as it showed her conversion from Austrian to French.[3] Her style would eventually shift as a result of her growth in age and maturity.[2]
Marie Antoinette believed that she needed to be seen as entirely French. In addition to the lavish dresses she wore, she believed her hair needed to match the overall look, as it tied the entire ensemble together.[3] Léonard-Alexis Autié, a well-known hairdresser, served as Marie Antoinette’s hairdresser for a period of time.[3] He created Marie Antoinette’s elaborately styled hair, which included jewels, feathers, and other embellishments.[1][3] The height of her hair was a force to be reckoned with as it reached new highs as a result of the intricate construction.[3] Soon, the majority of noblewomen in France wanted to imitate Marie Antoinette’s hairstyle, no matter the expense.[3]
Her style quickly shifted once she gave birth to her first child because she did not feel the need to wear lavish and luxurious clothes.[2] Marie Antoinette abandoned the glitzy dresses and gaudy hairstyles and opted for a more natural look.[2] She wore simple and plain dresses instead of huge dresses with embellishments and decorations.[2] Her hairstyles followed suit.[3] They were natural and did not include intricate decoration or height.[3] Léonard-Alexis Autié suggested that she cut her hair as a symbol of her maturity.[3]
All of Marie Antoinette’s fashion choices were met with great disdain, scrutiny, and judgment.[1] People in the French court blamed her for France’s deficit because of her excessive spending on materialistic objects, such as dresses, shoes, and hairstyles.[1][4] Given her limited political power, her style was one of the few things that Marie Antoinette could control in her life and she continued to wear what she liked, despite the opinions of others.[2]
Sources used: [1] Weber, Caroline (2008). Queen of Fashion: What Marie Antoinette Wore to the Revolution. London: Aurum Press. p. 3. ISBN 9781845133153.
[3] Hosford, Desmond (2004). "The Queen's Hair: Marie-Antoinette, Politics, and DNA". Eighteenth-Century Studies. 38, no.1: 183–200.
[2] Ferriss Suzanne, Young Mallory (2010). "Marie Antoinette": Fashion, Third-Wave Feminism, and Chick Culture". Literature/Film Quarterly. 38, no.2: 98–116.
[4] "Marie Antoinette". The Irish Monthly. 34, no. 393: 151–160 – via JSTOR.
HHonore22 ( talk) 20:26, 28 April 2020 (UTC)HHonore22
Ancestors of Marie Antoinette/Archive 6 [1] [2] [3] |
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Sources said, these would be used as newer references:
But recently outdated:
So I hope which one is it? -- Frontman830 ( talk) 01:36, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Empress Maria Theresa dies in 1780, but the "Declining popularity (1782–1785)" section lists the following:
If both sentences refer to events and letters that happened before Maria Theresa's death, they should probably be moved to one of the previous sections, or the article should clarify that these are earlier events given for context. Enthymemes ( talk) 07:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
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Marie Antoinette’s Secret’s
This is true, Mari Antoinette had secret diary, unfortunately this diary does not exist anymore, it has not been found in over 3 centuries, the cover for this diary was a light cover made out of leather and played with gold, sources state inside this diary was Marie Antoinette’s private life and what she really was like as a person, similar sources state that Marie Antoinette had noted that she had hated King Louis VXI due to him being verbally abusive to her and her hair which she beloved, tin that diary she had quoted that she had sducidal thoughts everyday due to King Louise’s verbal abuse, and in anger, ended up murdering her hair stylist. This Diary is not ver well known amongst many people, later, this diary was caught in a fire and eventually burned to ashes Ago Lisanier ( talk) 08:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 March 2020 and 1 May 2020. Further details are available
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Hello. I feel that the new lead image for Marie Antoinette is rather a bit worse than the older one. I have made a similar argument on John Tyler's talk page so if you would like more background on my lead image philosophy then you can read that.
Marie Antoinette's article is rife with sandwiching. If you scroll down it, you can count 7-8 counts of sandwiching. There are simply too many pictures. There are more 18th century oil paintings in this article than some art galleries I've been to, and that's a fact. There are over 40 images in this article. Removing 1 picture is hardly going to deprive the article of pictures, and will help it look less crowded and garish.
Semi-recently, the lead image on Louis the Beloved's Wikipedia article was changed from this [5] by Maurice Quentin de La Tour to this [ [6]] by renowned Catalan-French artist Hyacinthe Rigaud and once more changed to this [ [7]] by Louis-Michel van Loo. If full-length portraits are favoured for the lead images on monarchial articles rather than facial close-ups (like they are for this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this and this. I could go on and on.) then we should continue using this image [8].
Thank you for reading this. Please consider my argument, and if more people prefer the current image rather than the older one, then I will concede. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 16:46, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
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Please add the category Category:Royal reburials 67.173.23.66 ( talk) 17:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
If they 2409:4073:4D84:34BD:91D0:4FC6:21A6:5F65 ( talk) 15:20, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Marie A: Amilcar, as he was evicted from the boarding school when the fee was no longer paid, and reportedly starved to death on the street. Amilcar: This resulted in Jean Amilcar being expelled from his school. The traditional assumption has been that he died after he was turned out from the boarding school and starved to death on the street. However later research has proven this to be false. Jean, by that time eleven years old, was taken care of by one of his teachers, Quentin Beldon, who applied to the government to provide for Jean's schooling with reference to the support the revolutionary government granted to people who had been enslaved during the former regime. Displaying a talent for drawing, Jean Amilcar was able to enroll at the Liancourt Academy in Paris with state support in 1796. However, he died from an illness in a hospital in Paris later that same year. 97.114.178.210 ( talk) 02:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
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In the Issue section of the infobox template, please change the link Louis XVII of France to Louis XVII of France, as it currently links to her brother-in-law, not her son. 2601:241:300:B610:193A:2B99:A09A:E278 ( talk) 18:46, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
If you took a DNA test and it has shown that you are related to her reply below! Would that be cool. They could have been royalty. OoO TabNoesEverything ( talk) 03:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I’m not a contributor but noticed source 135 letter volume 2’s link doesn’t seem to work. If there’s a full reference to these letters it would be nice if it were more explicit where this source was found. 2600:8805:1808:A130:B815:5831:6ABD:A67 ( talk) 03:00, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi! Dialuanny0 here! Back in January/February 2022, I saw a Wikipedia user make a topic on this article’s talk page about the infobox photo. They were talking about reverting it the original one/changing it to something else, which I can agree with. They made a good argument about it. It has been awhile since then, and I’m ready to talk about changes with the infobox photo! Here are some photos that I think we could possibly change the infobox image to:
File:Marie-Antoinette_par_Elisabeth_Vig%C3%A9e-Lebrun_-_1783.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
File:Marie_Antoinette_Adult.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
File:Gautier-Dagoty_-_Marie-Antoinette,_1775.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
Dialuanny0 (
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03:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
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"As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court; as for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic in spite of the fact that she gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. In spite of her very ample proportions, Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor."
Change to: As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court. As for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic. She gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor. 89.19.79.27 ( talk) 10:41, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
So you basically propose to delete "In spite of her very ample proportions ...". I agree, this is insensitive and fat-shaming. PatGallacher ( talk) 14:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Hello I simply added the impact of Marie Antoinette on her court and the fashion of her days ; Marie Antoinette life was affected deeply first by her fashion impact ; she was a model in fashion who was followed in all Europe . In addition this was a very important political issue with time , the people of France began to turn on their queen because of her lifestyle and this affected her popularity leading to the French Revolution. If you read any book on Marie Antoinette this was a very important issue for her before the birth of her children. Frankly a controversy over an issue who defined 20 years of the queen life : she was called the queen of fashion in spite that she gained a lot of ample proportions ; I’am simply describing the historical fact and not fat-shaming her but glorifying her as the queen of fashion in history despite her fat (fat is beautiful if you want ) ; but that is not the crux of the matter, it is one line in a whole paragraph. We can’t judge people who live 200 years ago according to our modern standards; their ideas were different than us . This is not an ideological article but an historical one SeriousHist ( talk) 16:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC) To have consensus I agree to the change already made and I hope we can all work together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 16:13, 20 June 2023 (UTC) European History is my speciality ; this article is good but It need some sources who are missing. To see how I work I saw in the article of another important queen Elizabeth Tudor that the establishment of the first colony in North America is not mentioned and the fondation of the Eastern Company for India ; I added both ; here I saw the same problem; a major fact of Marie Antoinette life and impact was missing. Thank you all. SeriousHist ( talk) 16:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.thecollector.com/marie-antoinette-controversial-fashion-queen/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 17:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.itsbeyondmycontrol.com/18th-century-fashion-marie-antoinette-the-queen-of-haute-couture/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/history-magazine/article/daily-life-france-fashion-marie-antoinette — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 17:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC) SeriousHist ( talk) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
https://www.savoirflair.com/fashion/100411/marie-antoinette-inspired-runway-collections SeriousHist ( talk) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC) In conclusion I added important new sources here to show the impact of that subject in Marie Antoinette life . This was a very important feature who defined her life for more than a decade with a massive social , political and cultural impact felt all over the world for a long period of time. I think it is worth a new paragraph who should be added to the article. Also it is very important to diversify the sources in that article who depend heavily on Fraser ( A great historian but who should not be the only or even major source of her life ). Thank you all. SeriousHist ( talk) 17:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Not done: removing from edit request backlog until there's a clearer consensus about what changes to make. (My unsolicited opinion is that if any of the material is to remain, it be rewritten to be more encyclopedic and with inline attribution to Fraser as he is apparently the sole source of it.)
Xan747 (
talk)
19:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I proposed the inclusion of {{
ahnentafel}}
in "ancestry" section (with reliable and non-trivial sources, but only can extend to great-grandparents) for this article, which had been removed last
25 October 2019, and another one in
22 May 2020, for these names of the subject's great-great-grandparents are trivial, but
Wikipedia is not a genealogy database.
Ancestors of Marie Antoinette [1] |
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2001:4451:824F:B700:10CD:87C9:EEE7:A19C ( talk) 07:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
"While Wikipedia is not and never was intended as a genealogy software, this area may still be further improved. Nearly all royalty articles include a section of brief ancestry, as well as a list of spouse(s) and issue."Seems to me that Marie Antoinette can indisputably claim generational data on her page. Pistongrinder ( talk) 22:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
References
The source for Marie Antoinette's last words on this article is a clickbait listicle which gives no source. I have tracked this quote down to Marie Antoinette: The Journey (2001), by Antonia Frasier (ISBN-13: 9780385489492), p. 580. No source is given in the book itself for this quote, which I find distressing considering how pervasive these supposed last words have become. In the Memoirs of the Sansons, Vol. II (1876), by Henri Sanson (ISBN-13: 978-1172710188), p. 56, Henri Sanson records the last words of Marie Antoinette as "Farewell, my children; I am going to join your father."
I see no reason why an unsourced quote in a random online article should be allowed as a valid source. And even beyond that, I see no reason why an unsourced quote written in a book over 200 years after the death of Marie Antoinette occurred is allowed to persist at all on Wikipedia as the purported last words of such a significant historical figure. Fraser's book is a tertiary source (and that is a generous evaluation on my part) which contains no reference whatsoever to any contemporary recordings of this quote. Henri Sanson's records are a secondary source that draw from the diary and notes of Charles-Henri Sanson, the man who put Antoinette to death himself, and his own experiences on the scaffold during the First French Republic. The conclusion I have come to many months after first discovering this discrepancy is that the last words of Antoinette currently on this article are a balatant fabrication by Fraser. Past that, Fraser's book is not even cited on this article. From where does "thoughtcatalogue.com" get any credence? The article on that site does not reference any sources at all. Anyone with a lick of experience on the internet can see that this "Famous Last Words" article was designed from the ground up to only draw in ad revenue.
The currently listed last words of Antoinette do garner a lot of sympathy, but it is unjustifiably gained. As Sanson relates in the memoirs, any real sympathy should come from the fact that this woman was forced into her position as queen and lost her husband and all of her children within such a short period of time. But that is enough for me, and I see no reason why clearly fabricated last words should be used to bring her any more sympathy than the awful circumstances of her life should evoke in any human. Ct00 ( talk) 07:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
While everyone, including me, is in agreement that genealogy is relevant, I question the choice of information presented here. Biographies of Marie Antoinette abound, and a survey of those cited in the article shows that they do not present genealogy in the form of an ahnentafel. Instead they use charts that include siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins, and illustrate Marie Antoinette's relationship to Louis XVI and the French royal family. Therefore I propose replacing the ahnentafel with a chart modelled after those found in the biographies of Marie Antoinette. Surtsicna ( talk) 02:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
Here is an example modelled after the family tree from Fraser's biography of Marie Antoinette:
Family tree after Fraser, illustrating the Bourbon-Habsburg-Lorraine connections |
---|
Notes: Solid vertical lines indicate parent-child relationship, while dashed lines represent more distant ancestor-descendant connections. |
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The van Meytens portrait depicts Maria Josepha of Austria, not Maria Antonia. That's how it's presented at Schönbrunn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.7.75.30 ( talk) 16:56, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
In the section titled "The French Revolution before Varennes," the final paragraph before Mirabeau mentions "Le Godmiché Royal" (which I found a copy of here: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k56707s/f1.image that could be cited, or at least listed) and states that a person called "Lady Sophie Farrell" was alleged to be the queen's lover in this publication. However, I am unable to find any further information on this "Lady Sophie Farrell." Even "Le Godmiché Royal" doesn't seem to mention her by name (though I am rusty on my eighteenth century French). This section needs a citation.
Additionally, the final sentence in the second paragraph under "Trial and execution" contradicts itself by saying that the reaction of the mothers in the room comforted Marie Antoinette since they were not sympathetic to her. It seems like it should be that they were NOT comforting because they lacked sympathy, or they were comforting and sympathetic, both. I don't know which it is in this case. 66.86.231.254 ( talk) 05:03, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
In the section about the diamond necklace scandal, there is a sentence which begins with this: "Marie Antoinette, who had insisted on the arrest of the Cardinal was dealt a heavy personal blow," SUGGESTED EDIT: add comma just after "Cardinal"
Earlier in that same paragraph, I find this in parentheses: "except de La Motte and Réaux de Villette who managed to flee" SUGGESTED EDIT: assuming both of those people fled, insert comma just after "Villette", and consider inserting "both" just after "who"
In the preceding paragraph, I find "The main actors of the scandal" and "Others involved". I suggest you review those sentences with the view of changing some commas to semicolons. There may be some cases in the listings where the existing ", ___ ," construct is a description rather than a distinct person, and you should be using a semicolon instead of a comma at the end of such construct when that happens.
In the section about the French Revolution before Varennes, there is a phrase "remained by the king whose power was gradually being taken away". SUGGESTED EDIT: add comma after "king".
I find "After the death of her brother Joseph in 1790, his successor, Leopold". SUGGESTED EDIT: Insert comma after "Leopold". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.102.56.146 ( talk) 20:48, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
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my request is to remove a word because it is a mistake in the text - it is in 'marie antoinette' under '9 trial and execution' and there last sentence first paragraph: "....their reaction brought her comfort since these women were not sympathetic to her.[197][198]" - the word "not' has to be removed! it distorts the sense of what is said in this sentence. Nurkorrigieren ( talk) 01:54, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
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}} 1.22.33.240 ( talk) 06:47, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
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This article can be congratulated for pointing out that there is no evidence that Marie Antionette ever said "Let them eat cake" or "Let them eat brioche". Vorbee ( talk) 19:55, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
Given that she was Austrian by birth, a Habsburg indeed, it would be more authentic to refer to her as Maria Antonia. Her ancestry section is completely blank.§ Smlark ( talk) 17:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
While it was entertaining to read about how poor Marie had her sensitive little hands bound roughly behind her back, how she tragically had smoke blown into her face by a guard, or -gasp- had to ride in an OPEN cart on the way to the guillotine instead of a dignified carriage, I think it's pretty obvious a huge portion of this article has been written by people who fetishize royalty. This is a person who doubtlessly would have been willing to brutally torture and execute tens of thousands if it meant maintaining her power and privilege. It is possible to acknowledge the abuse she has received without desperately trying to make people sympathise with her (like say the section on Muammar Gaddafi's death does, who has endured a significantly more violent and humiliating end) 2A02:2F0A:C412:7E00:55CF:BFD:5CDD:1B4A ( talk) 10:34, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be one "and" too many here.
Who was this well-known Lady Sophie Farrell? A quick web search turns up only this page (and a copy of it). Her title is given improperly: if she was a baroness she'd be Lady Farrell; a Lady Sophie is the daughter of an earl-or-higher. — Tamfang ( talk) 18:17, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Thewickedfae, first, are you Aubmn, who was indefinitely blocked by Bishonen years ago? Secondly, regarding edits like this and this, you need to cite the exact page number for the sources you are using to support your material. You should not be engaging in WP:Synthesis. And, third, it's best that you are honest about whether or not you are Aubmn. Also, there is no need to WP:Ping me if you reply. Flyer22 Frozen ( talk) 01:55, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
I used the visual editor to add sources, so if it said pages= as opposed to page= then there must have been an error while I was editing. The visual editor plays up on me sometimes, I've noticed. I will fix this. Btw, I posted on your talk page before seeing I had a notification. I'd left the window open while I was away doing something. Sorry about that and thanks for the information and replying. Still learning obviously. Thewickedfae ( talk) 01:43, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Bonjour
Flyer22 Frozen! just read a note on my talk page on 29 February stating that my name was mentioned on this page. You are correct: I have not been on wiki for quite a few months because there is also life outside en.fr.de.wikis and others!
Reading the various contributions to wiki.en by Thewickedfae leads me to believe that he/she is not our unforgettable Sockpuppet Aubmn of years past. Of course, it is only a feeling on my part. However, the subjects he/she treats & the language used - plus his/her knowledge of French in various small details - lead me to believe that contributor Thewickedfae is not a Sockpuppet. Naturally, I may be mistaken, and only future will tell.
Best to all & aurevoir. -- Blue Indigo ( talk) 15:49, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Hello. I am thinking about adding a new section before the "Legacy" section on Marie Antoinette's page. I have put the new section below. Please feel free to give any feedback and/or suggestions for improvement. Thanks.
== Style and public reception == Due to her royal status as princess and queen, Marie Antoinette consistently dressed in luxurious and expensive clothes and spent exorbitantly on hair and style.[1] When she relocated to France to marry Louis XVI, her style changed dramatically from the fashion of Austria to fit the fashion of France.[1] A number of scholars have argued that Marie Antoinette used fashion as a way to express herself.[1][2] From gaudy and flamboyant dresses and hairstyles to natural and earth-toned looks, Marie Antoinette faced harsh criticism for nearly everything that she wore.[2] In recent decades Marie Antoinette has been seen as a fashion icon and has inspired fashion designers, celebrities, and others to imitate her styles on and off the runway.[1]
As a member of the French court, Marie Antoinette was expected to adopt any and all customs of the court, including attire and hairstyles.[1][3] Dresses worn in French court included form-fitting corsets, large hoop skirts, and fabric that had ruffles, lace, jewels, and other decorations.[1] She believed it was incumbent on Marie Antoinette to dress like the French, as it showed her conversion from Austrian to French.[3] Her style would eventually shift as a result of her growth in age and maturity.[2]
Marie Antoinette believed that she needed to be seen as entirely French. In addition to the lavish dresses she wore, she believed her hair needed to match the overall look, as it tied the entire ensemble together.[3] Léonard-Alexis Autié, a well-known hairdresser, served as Marie Antoinette’s hairdresser for a period of time.[3] He created Marie Antoinette’s elaborately styled hair, which included jewels, feathers, and other embellishments.[1][3] The height of her hair was a force to be reckoned with as it reached new highs as a result of the intricate construction.[3] Soon, the majority of noblewomen in France wanted to imitate Marie Antoinette’s hairstyle, no matter the expense.[3]
Her style quickly shifted once she gave birth to her first child because she did not feel the need to wear lavish and luxurious clothes.[2] Marie Antoinette abandoned the glitzy dresses and gaudy hairstyles and opted for a more natural look.[2] She wore simple and plain dresses instead of huge dresses with embellishments and decorations.[2] Her hairstyles followed suit.[3] They were natural and did not include intricate decoration or height.[3] Léonard-Alexis Autié suggested that she cut her hair as a symbol of her maturity.[3]
All of Marie Antoinette’s fashion choices were met with great disdain, scrutiny, and judgment.[1] People in the French court blamed her for France’s deficit because of her excessive spending on materialistic objects, such as dresses, shoes, and hairstyles.[1][4] Given her limited political power, her style was one of the few things that Marie Antoinette could control in her life and she continued to wear what she liked, despite the opinions of others.[2]
Sources used: [1] Weber, Caroline (2008). Queen of Fashion: What Marie Antoinette Wore to the Revolution. London: Aurum Press. p. 3. ISBN 9781845133153.
[3] Hosford, Desmond (2004). "The Queen's Hair: Marie-Antoinette, Politics, and DNA". Eighteenth-Century Studies. 38, no.1: 183–200.
[2] Ferriss Suzanne, Young Mallory (2010). "Marie Antoinette": Fashion, Third-Wave Feminism, and Chick Culture". Literature/Film Quarterly. 38, no.2: 98–116.
[4] "Marie Antoinette". The Irish Monthly. 34, no. 393: 151–160 – via JSTOR.
HHonore22 ( talk) 20:26, 28 April 2020 (UTC)HHonore22
Ancestors of Marie Antoinette/Archive 6 [1] [2] [3] |
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Sources said, these would be used as newer references:
But recently outdated:
So I hope which one is it? -- Frontman830 ( talk) 01:36, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Empress Maria Theresa dies in 1780, but the "Declining popularity (1782–1785)" section lists the following:
If both sentences refer to events and letters that happened before Maria Theresa's death, they should probably be moved to one of the previous sections, or the article should clarify that these are earlier events given for context. Enthymemes ( talk) 07:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
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Marie Antoinette’s Secret’s
This is true, Mari Antoinette had secret diary, unfortunately this diary does not exist anymore, it has not been found in over 3 centuries, the cover for this diary was a light cover made out of leather and played with gold, sources state inside this diary was Marie Antoinette’s private life and what she really was like as a person, similar sources state that Marie Antoinette had noted that she had hated King Louis VXI due to him being verbally abusive to her and her hair which she beloved, tin that diary she had quoted that she had sducidal thoughts everyday due to King Louise’s verbal abuse, and in anger, ended up murdering her hair stylist. This Diary is not ver well known amongst many people, later, this diary was caught in a fire and eventually burned to ashes Ago Lisanier ( talk) 08:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 March 2020 and 1 May 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
HHonore22. Peer reviewers:
Russiacarter.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 03:22, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello. I feel that the new lead image for Marie Antoinette is rather a bit worse than the older one. I have made a similar argument on John Tyler's talk page so if you would like more background on my lead image philosophy then you can read that.
Marie Antoinette's article is rife with sandwiching. If you scroll down it, you can count 7-8 counts of sandwiching. There are simply too many pictures. There are more 18th century oil paintings in this article than some art galleries I've been to, and that's a fact. There are over 40 images in this article. Removing 1 picture is hardly going to deprive the article of pictures, and will help it look less crowded and garish.
Semi-recently, the lead image on Louis the Beloved's Wikipedia article was changed from this [5] by Maurice Quentin de La Tour to this [ [6]] by renowned Catalan-French artist Hyacinthe Rigaud and once more changed to this [ [7]] by Louis-Michel van Loo. If full-length portraits are favoured for the lead images on monarchial articles rather than facial close-ups (like they are for this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this and this. I could go on and on.) then we should continue using this image [8].
Thank you for reading this. Please consider my argument, and if more people prefer the current image rather than the older one, then I will concede. Tim O'Doherty ( talk) 16:46, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
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Please add the category Category:Royal reburials 67.173.23.66 ( talk) 17:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
If they 2409:4073:4D84:34BD:91D0:4FC6:21A6:5F65 ( talk) 15:20, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Marie A: Amilcar, as he was evicted from the boarding school when the fee was no longer paid, and reportedly starved to death on the street. Amilcar: This resulted in Jean Amilcar being expelled from his school. The traditional assumption has been that he died after he was turned out from the boarding school and starved to death on the street. However later research has proven this to be false. Jean, by that time eleven years old, was taken care of by one of his teachers, Quentin Beldon, who applied to the government to provide for Jean's schooling with reference to the support the revolutionary government granted to people who had been enslaved during the former regime. Displaying a talent for drawing, Jean Amilcar was able to enroll at the Liancourt Academy in Paris with state support in 1796. However, he died from an illness in a hospital in Paris later that same year. 97.114.178.210 ( talk) 02:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
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In the Issue section of the infobox template, please change the link Louis XVII of France to Louis XVII of France, as it currently links to her brother-in-law, not her son. 2601:241:300:B610:193A:2B99:A09A:E278 ( talk) 18:46, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
If you took a DNA test and it has shown that you are related to her reply below! Would that be cool. They could have been royalty. OoO TabNoesEverything ( talk) 03:44, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
I’m not a contributor but noticed source 135 letter volume 2’s link doesn’t seem to work. If there’s a full reference to these letters it would be nice if it were more explicit where this source was found. 2600:8805:1808:A130:B815:5831:6ABD:A67 ( talk) 03:00, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Hi! Dialuanny0 here! Back in January/February 2022, I saw a Wikipedia user make a topic on this article’s talk page about the infobox photo. They were talking about reverting it the original one/changing it to something else, which I can agree with. They made a good argument about it. It has been awhile since then, and I’m ready to talk about changes with the infobox photo! Here are some photos that I think we could possibly change the infobox image to:
File:Marie-Antoinette_par_Elisabeth_Vig%C3%A9e-Lebrun_-_1783.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
File:Marie_Antoinette_Adult.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
File:Gautier-Dagoty_-_Marie-Antoinette,_1775.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
Dialuanny0 (
talk)
03:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
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"As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court; as for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic in spite of the fact that she gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. In spite of her very ample proportions, Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor."
Change to: As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court. As for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic. She gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor. 89.19.79.27 ( talk) 10:41, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
So you basically propose to delete "In spite of her very ample proportions ...". I agree, this is insensitive and fat-shaming. PatGallacher ( talk) 14:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Hello I simply added the impact of Marie Antoinette on her court and the fashion of her days ; Marie Antoinette life was affected deeply first by her fashion impact ; she was a model in fashion who was followed in all Europe . In addition this was a very important political issue with time , the people of France began to turn on their queen because of her lifestyle and this affected her popularity leading to the French Revolution. If you read any book on Marie Antoinette this was a very important issue for her before the birth of her children. Frankly a controversy over an issue who defined 20 years of the queen life : she was called the queen of fashion in spite that she gained a lot of ample proportions ; I’am simply describing the historical fact and not fat-shaming her but glorifying her as the queen of fashion in history despite her fat (fat is beautiful if you want ) ; but that is not the crux of the matter, it is one line in a whole paragraph. We can’t judge people who live 200 years ago according to our modern standards; their ideas were different than us . This is not an ideological article but an historical one SeriousHist ( talk) 16:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC) To have consensus I agree to the change already made and I hope we can all work together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 16:13, 20 June 2023 (UTC) European History is my speciality ; this article is good but It need some sources who are missing. To see how I work I saw in the article of another important queen Elizabeth Tudor that the establishment of the first colony in North America is not mentioned and the fondation of the Eastern Company for India ; I added both ; here I saw the same problem; a major fact of Marie Antoinette life and impact was missing. Thank you all. SeriousHist ( talk) 16:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.thecollector.com/marie-antoinette-controversial-fashion-queen/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 17:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.itsbeyondmycontrol.com/18th-century-fashion-marie-antoinette-the-queen-of-haute-couture/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 17:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/history-magazine/article/daily-life-france-fashion-marie-antoinette — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist ( talk • contribs) 17:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC) SeriousHist ( talk) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
https://www.savoirflair.com/fashion/100411/marie-antoinette-inspired-runway-collections SeriousHist ( talk) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC) In conclusion I added important new sources here to show the impact of that subject in Marie Antoinette life . This was a very important feature who defined her life for more than a decade with a massive social , political and cultural impact felt all over the world for a long period of time. I think it is worth a new paragraph who should be added to the article. Also it is very important to diversify the sources in that article who depend heavily on Fraser ( A great historian but who should not be the only or even major source of her life ). Thank you all. SeriousHist ( talk) 17:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Not done: removing from edit request backlog until there's a clearer consensus about what changes to make. (My unsolicited opinion is that if any of the material is to remain, it be rewritten to be more encyclopedic and with inline attribution to Fraser as he is apparently the sole source of it.)
Xan747 (
talk)
19:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I proposed the inclusion of {{
ahnentafel}}
in "ancestry" section (with reliable and non-trivial sources, but only can extend to great-grandparents) for this article, which had been removed last
25 October 2019, and another one in
22 May 2020, for these names of the subject's great-great-grandparents are trivial, but
Wikipedia is not a genealogy database.
Ancestors of Marie Antoinette [1] |
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2001:4451:824F:B700:10CD:87C9:EEE7:A19C ( talk) 07:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
"While Wikipedia is not and never was intended as a genealogy software, this area may still be further improved. Nearly all royalty articles include a section of brief ancestry, as well as a list of spouse(s) and issue."Seems to me that Marie Antoinette can indisputably claim generational data on her page. Pistongrinder ( talk) 22:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
References
The source for Marie Antoinette's last words on this article is a clickbait listicle which gives no source. I have tracked this quote down to Marie Antoinette: The Journey (2001), by Antonia Frasier (ISBN-13: 9780385489492), p. 580. No source is given in the book itself for this quote, which I find distressing considering how pervasive these supposed last words have become. In the Memoirs of the Sansons, Vol. II (1876), by Henri Sanson (ISBN-13: 978-1172710188), p. 56, Henri Sanson records the last words of Marie Antoinette as "Farewell, my children; I am going to join your father."
I see no reason why an unsourced quote in a random online article should be allowed as a valid source. And even beyond that, I see no reason why an unsourced quote written in a book over 200 years after the death of Marie Antoinette occurred is allowed to persist at all on Wikipedia as the purported last words of such a significant historical figure. Fraser's book is a tertiary source (and that is a generous evaluation on my part) which contains no reference whatsoever to any contemporary recordings of this quote. Henri Sanson's records are a secondary source that draw from the diary and notes of Charles-Henri Sanson, the man who put Antoinette to death himself, and his own experiences on the scaffold during the First French Republic. The conclusion I have come to many months after first discovering this discrepancy is that the last words of Antoinette currently on this article are a balatant fabrication by Fraser. Past that, Fraser's book is not even cited on this article. From where does "thoughtcatalogue.com" get any credence? The article on that site does not reference any sources at all. Anyone with a lick of experience on the internet can see that this "Famous Last Words" article was designed from the ground up to only draw in ad revenue.
The currently listed last words of Antoinette do garner a lot of sympathy, but it is unjustifiably gained. As Sanson relates in the memoirs, any real sympathy should come from the fact that this woman was forced into her position as queen and lost her husband and all of her children within such a short period of time. But that is enough for me, and I see no reason why clearly fabricated last words should be used to bring her any more sympathy than the awful circumstances of her life should evoke in any human. Ct00 ( talk) 07:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
While everyone, including me, is in agreement that genealogy is relevant, I question the choice of information presented here. Biographies of Marie Antoinette abound, and a survey of those cited in the article shows that they do not present genealogy in the form of an ahnentafel. Instead they use charts that include siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins, and illustrate Marie Antoinette's relationship to Louis XVI and the French royal family. Therefore I propose replacing the ahnentafel with a chart modelled after those found in the biographies of Marie Antoinette. Surtsicna ( talk) 02:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
Here is an example modelled after the family tree from Fraser's biography of Marie Antoinette:
Family tree after Fraser, illustrating the Bourbon-Habsburg-Lorraine connections |
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Notes: Solid vertical lines indicate parent-child relationship, while dashed lines represent more distant ancestor-descendant connections. |