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Icewhiz, when you have time to read the article, please address the redundancy you added. I already mentioned the death of the four-year old Jewish girl. Thanks. TheGracefulSlick ( talk) 16:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Per WP:TERRORIST, it is incorrect to call anti-occupation Lehi and Irgun fighters terrorists. British sources do indeed refer to these operations as such (though likewise, non-British sources refer to the British actions as illegal) - and as long as we attribute this to the British it is fine, but use of this term in our voice for Irgun and Lehi military operations against occupying troops violates NPOV. Icewhiz ( talk) 17:23, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Icewhiz, there being sources that do not use "terrorism" does not negate the sources that do. Is it your position that most sources do not call the bombing of the officers club an act of terrorism? nableezy - 21:58, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Icewhiz here, and per
WP:TERRORIST removing this label.
Attack Ramon (
talk)
23:16, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I also agree with Icewhiz. ShimonChai ( talk) 23:44, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
British sources using the label is not an indication (counterfactual-since many US historical sources called them thus)- as many Jewish sources do not (counter-factual since contemporary Jewish sources called them that). In this case we are talking about military operations - a military organization attacking the military personnel of a different military organization.
Icewhiz, you are very clearly seeking to adopt a different standard for Jewish attacks in Palestine as opposed to Palestinian attacks in or against Israel. You are inventing requirements here that apparently dont apply to other areas that you edit, ones that dont actually appear in any policy. I think an RFC is the only way to get around this filibustering what reliable sources report. nableezy - 18:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Oh, I am actually quite aware of the sources here - and in some of the cases in the article you are using quoted British reports (or British newspapers from the time) for the label, and not the voice of a high quality source. But OK - Imperial Endgame: Britain's Dirty Wars and the End of Empire, Benjamin Grob-Fitzgibbon, pages 79-84 - we have "the British forces were at war with the Jews", "The IZL injured five soldiers and four civilians in three attacks", "The Irgun launched further attacks", "it was not only the IZL that was engaged in this insurgent campaign", "arrest only twenty five insurgents", "On March 31, LEHI bombed the Haifa oil refinery", "meanwhile the Jewish insurgent attacks continued...."...... 'And guess what? Not a single word use of "terror" - save one use - which describes the British POV "the high commisioner introduced the death penalty as a punishment for terrorist actions".
'Finally, on February 1 –just three months after taking command-Begin published a declaration of revolt against the British, proclaiming that the armistice between the IZL and British forces was over. On February 12, less than two weeks after this declaration the IZL began its campaign of terror, simultaneously bombing immigration offices in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa.(pp.12-13) ...On April 2 . .the (Jewish) Agency articulated an official policy of opposition to the terror campaign. . . Despite this opposition, the terror campaign continued. (p.13)
"the British forces were at war with the Jews",
By all accounts, The British security forces were at war with the Jews, or at least, with those Jews involved in the insurgency.’p.80, and insurgency he throughout describes as adopting terrorist tactics.
I am discussing the article at hand - the favored phrase of the classic POV pusher. One set of rules here, another set there, but Im only discussing this article now. Classic. nableezy - 21:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Nish, I think at a certain point one has to recognize there is no point in continuing discussing with those not open to discussion. Please provide a list of sources supporting the wording as is and we can move on to DR processes with the wider community. And we can see whether or not one standard applies to Jewish violence and another to Palestinian violence as Icewhiz is arguing. nableezy - 21:56, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
What on earth are you doing? ‘Jewish sabbath’ is one thing, 'Saturday another. Do you really think Sabbath and Saturday have the same connotations? Stating ‘It was the first terrorist attack on as Saturday’ doesn’t make sense. You haven’t corrected my oversight in not at the same time removing the later 'Saturday' so much as restored the nonsensical ‘Saturday’ which will only leave the non-Jewish reader, the majority, pausing to wonder why editors think there’s something special about Saturday. Nishidani ( talk) 13:06, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Youre both looking to improve the article. @ XavierItzm: with this article having a revert restriction, would you care to make an edit that implements your suggestion on including the Sabbath as requested? nableezy - 18:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the attacks listed in this article be described as "terrorist"? Nableezy 17:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
The Black September Organization (BSO) (Arabic: منظمة أيلول الأسود, Munaẓẓamat Aylūl al-aswad) was a Palestinian terrorist organization[1] founded in 1970.
The Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine (Arabic: حركة الجهاد الإسلامي في فلسطين, Harakat al-Jihād al-Islāmi fi Filastīn) known in the West as simply Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), is a Palestinian Islamist terrorist organization formed in 1981 whose objective is the destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of a sovereign, Islamic Palestinian state
(1) Policy. WP:Terrorist reads:-
Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution.
‘their deserved reputation as a terrorist group’.
’In Palestine, the Irgun Zvai Leumni and LEHI (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) opted for individual terrorism . . .External dangers apart, terrorist groups have always been threatened by internal dissension. Most terrorist groups came into being in the first place as the result of a split between the moderate and the more extreme wing of an already-existing organization, and almost all of them later underwent further fission. This is true of the Narodnaya Volya, the Social Revolutuionaries, the Fenians, the Spanish, Italian and American Anarchists, Irgun, the Palestinian Arab terrorists and, of course, the terrorists of the 1960s and 1970s.’
The robbery was carried out by members of the Irgun, the rightwing anti-British Jewish terrorist movement,
The internationalization of Palestinian Arab terrorism that occurred in the 1960s and 1970s would also appear to owe something to the quest for international attention and recognition that the Irgun’s own terrorist campaign pioneered a quarter of a century earlier.’
As a consciously adopted strategy, OAS terrorism was no more horrific than the atrocities committed by the FLN and the Irgun (Weizmann denounced the group’s tactics as a “tragic, futile, un-Jewish resort to terrorism’ ..'the victims of Irgun terrorism.'
so far as the Etzel (Irgun) were concerrned, the only way to deal with attack perpetrated by Palestinian terrorist networks against the Jewish population was to pay them back in kind.This meant that they would terrorize Palestinian citizens ub the attempt to sow fear in their communities and weaken their support for the Arab Revolt ..By the time the Arab Revolt began to flag in 1939, Etzel had become highly skilled in executing acts of terrorism. Over the years, the group carried out sixty operations that took the lives of mnore than 120 Palestinans and injured hundrreds smore . .(Then)Irgun commasnders directed the substantial experience their men had accumulated in guerilla acts and terorism towards a new target: the British Mandate authorities.
'Finally, on February 1 –just three months after taking command-Begin published a declaration of revolt against the British, proclaiming that the armistice between the IZL and British forces was over. On February 12, less than two weeks after this declaration the IZL (Irgun) began its campaign of terror, simultaneously bombing immigration offices in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa.(pp.12-13) ...On April 2 . .the (Jewish) Agency articulated an official policy of opposition to the terror campaign. . . Despite this opposition, the terror campaign continued
A museum tells the story of the Irgun Zvai Leumi, the organization led by Menachem Begin, which used terrorist methods in its fight against the rule of the British.
British policy was undoubtedly affected by underground terrorism p.15
Bernadotte decided he wanted to take a closer look at the house. He was warned by the Israeli governor too, that the area was notorious for the activities of the Jewish terrorist organizations.p.163
Martha Crenshaw, in her study of Algerian revolutionary terrorism in the 1950s has defined the concept as a systematic method designed to seize political power, characterized by acts of extraordinary violence, and with symbolic targeting designed to have a psychological effect on specific groups of people with an aim of changing political behaviour. The Irgun campaign undoubtedly fits this category.’
Terrorists have become conventional political leaders: Israeli Prime Minister Begin at one time a leader of the Zionist terrorist group Irgun
The government, could have ruthlessly and indiscriminately cracked the Irgun's terrorist campaign, as it did during the Arab revolt in the 1930's. However it refrained from doing so.
the terrorist campaign launched by Irgun in Palestine on 14 November 1937 was not in any way authorized by the commander-in-chief
we can think of only two campaigns of strategic terrorism to have prompted the fundamental political change envisaged by the insurgents. One is the Irgun's campaign to end the British Mandate in Palestine in favour of a Jewish homeland. The other is the FLN’s campaign for Algerian independence.’.
Eight British soldiers die in a bomb attack by Jewish Irgun terrorists on a police station in Jerusalem (6 uses of that word for six episodes in the chronology for this period)
Stern and Irgun terrorism convinced the British to abandon Palestine.
in 1945, the Irgun began a campaign of all-out terrorism.
Beginning in February 1944 , the Irgun and Lehi worked in concert to conduct a terrorist campaign aimed at dislodging the British mandatory government in Palestine.'
The terrorist campaign took the form of isolated murder and attempted murder, of sporadic cases of armed attacks on military police and civilian road transports
In retaliation for Arab attacks on Jewish civilians, Irgun terrorists killed over seventy Arabs in a series of explosions . . The Irgun's bloody terrorist campaign against civilians appalled Zionist leaders in Palestine
The Irgun and Stern gang launched a series of terrorist attacks against British soldiers and the British Mandate government
Irgun would launch a terrorist campaign and utilize the urban landscape of Palestine to blend in until the time was right to strike
I've more coming, but am busy at the moment. Nishidani ( talk) 19:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello, @ Zero0000, @ Nishidani
I think that you didn't notice the arrival of some banned trolls from wp:fr : [5], [6], ...
Covid, Independence Day, ... They have nothing better to do.
Good luck 2A02:2788:925:F87E:64C2:BBBA:BB98:7061 ( talk) 15:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
Icewhiz, when you have time to read the article, please address the redundancy you added. I already mentioned the death of the four-year old Jewish girl. Thanks. TheGracefulSlick ( talk) 16:52, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Per WP:TERRORIST, it is incorrect to call anti-occupation Lehi and Irgun fighters terrorists. British sources do indeed refer to these operations as such (though likewise, non-British sources refer to the British actions as illegal) - and as long as we attribute this to the British it is fine, but use of this term in our voice for Irgun and Lehi military operations against occupying troops violates NPOV. Icewhiz ( talk) 17:23, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Icewhiz, there being sources that do not use "terrorism" does not negate the sources that do. Is it your position that most sources do not call the bombing of the officers club an act of terrorism? nableezy - 21:58, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Icewhiz here, and per
WP:TERRORIST removing this label.
Attack Ramon (
talk)
23:16, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I also agree with Icewhiz. ShimonChai ( talk) 23:44, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
British sources using the label is not an indication (counterfactual-since many US historical sources called them thus)- as many Jewish sources do not (counter-factual since contemporary Jewish sources called them that). In this case we are talking about military operations - a military organization attacking the military personnel of a different military organization.
Icewhiz, you are very clearly seeking to adopt a different standard for Jewish attacks in Palestine as opposed to Palestinian attacks in or against Israel. You are inventing requirements here that apparently dont apply to other areas that you edit, ones that dont actually appear in any policy. I think an RFC is the only way to get around this filibustering what reliable sources report. nableezy - 18:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Oh, I am actually quite aware of the sources here - and in some of the cases in the article you are using quoted British reports (or British newspapers from the time) for the label, and not the voice of a high quality source. But OK - Imperial Endgame: Britain's Dirty Wars and the End of Empire, Benjamin Grob-Fitzgibbon, pages 79-84 - we have "the British forces were at war with the Jews", "The IZL injured five soldiers and four civilians in three attacks", "The Irgun launched further attacks", "it was not only the IZL that was engaged in this insurgent campaign", "arrest only twenty five insurgents", "On March 31, LEHI bombed the Haifa oil refinery", "meanwhile the Jewish insurgent attacks continued...."...... 'And guess what? Not a single word use of "terror" - save one use - which describes the British POV "the high commisioner introduced the death penalty as a punishment for terrorist actions".
'Finally, on February 1 –just three months after taking command-Begin published a declaration of revolt against the British, proclaiming that the armistice between the IZL and British forces was over. On February 12, less than two weeks after this declaration the IZL began its campaign of terror, simultaneously bombing immigration offices in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa.(pp.12-13) ...On April 2 . .the (Jewish) Agency articulated an official policy of opposition to the terror campaign. . . Despite this opposition, the terror campaign continued. (p.13)
"the British forces were at war with the Jews",
By all accounts, The British security forces were at war with the Jews, or at least, with those Jews involved in the insurgency.’p.80, and insurgency he throughout describes as adopting terrorist tactics.
I am discussing the article at hand - the favored phrase of the classic POV pusher. One set of rules here, another set there, but Im only discussing this article now. Classic. nableezy - 21:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Nish, I think at a certain point one has to recognize there is no point in continuing discussing with those not open to discussion. Please provide a list of sources supporting the wording as is and we can move on to DR processes with the wider community. And we can see whether or not one standard applies to Jewish violence and another to Palestinian violence as Icewhiz is arguing. nableezy - 21:56, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
What on earth are you doing? ‘Jewish sabbath’ is one thing, 'Saturday another. Do you really think Sabbath and Saturday have the same connotations? Stating ‘It was the first terrorist attack on as Saturday’ doesn’t make sense. You haven’t corrected my oversight in not at the same time removing the later 'Saturday' so much as restored the nonsensical ‘Saturday’ which will only leave the non-Jewish reader, the majority, pausing to wonder why editors think there’s something special about Saturday. Nishidani ( talk) 13:06, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Youre both looking to improve the article. @ XavierItzm: with this article having a revert restriction, would you care to make an edit that implements your suggestion on including the Sabbath as requested? nableezy - 18:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the attacks listed in this article be described as "terrorist"? Nableezy 17:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
The Black September Organization (BSO) (Arabic: منظمة أيلول الأسود, Munaẓẓamat Aylūl al-aswad) was a Palestinian terrorist organization[1] founded in 1970.
The Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine (Arabic: حركة الجهاد الإسلامي في فلسطين, Harakat al-Jihād al-Islāmi fi Filastīn) known in the West as simply Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), is a Palestinian Islamist terrorist organization formed in 1981 whose objective is the destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of a sovereign, Islamic Palestinian state
(1) Policy. WP:Terrorist reads:-
Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution.
‘their deserved reputation as a terrorist group’.
’In Palestine, the Irgun Zvai Leumni and LEHI (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) opted for individual terrorism . . .External dangers apart, terrorist groups have always been threatened by internal dissension. Most terrorist groups came into being in the first place as the result of a split between the moderate and the more extreme wing of an already-existing organization, and almost all of them later underwent further fission. This is true of the Narodnaya Volya, the Social Revolutuionaries, the Fenians, the Spanish, Italian and American Anarchists, Irgun, the Palestinian Arab terrorists and, of course, the terrorists of the 1960s and 1970s.’
The robbery was carried out by members of the Irgun, the rightwing anti-British Jewish terrorist movement,
The internationalization of Palestinian Arab terrorism that occurred in the 1960s and 1970s would also appear to owe something to the quest for international attention and recognition that the Irgun’s own terrorist campaign pioneered a quarter of a century earlier.’
As a consciously adopted strategy, OAS terrorism was no more horrific than the atrocities committed by the FLN and the Irgun (Weizmann denounced the group’s tactics as a “tragic, futile, un-Jewish resort to terrorism’ ..'the victims of Irgun terrorism.'
so far as the Etzel (Irgun) were concerrned, the only way to deal with attack perpetrated by Palestinian terrorist networks against the Jewish population was to pay them back in kind.This meant that they would terrorize Palestinian citizens ub the attempt to sow fear in their communities and weaken their support for the Arab Revolt ..By the time the Arab Revolt began to flag in 1939, Etzel had become highly skilled in executing acts of terrorism. Over the years, the group carried out sixty operations that took the lives of mnore than 120 Palestinans and injured hundrreds smore . .(Then)Irgun commasnders directed the substantial experience their men had accumulated in guerilla acts and terorism towards a new target: the British Mandate authorities.
'Finally, on February 1 –just three months after taking command-Begin published a declaration of revolt against the British, proclaiming that the armistice between the IZL and British forces was over. On February 12, less than two weeks after this declaration the IZL (Irgun) began its campaign of terror, simultaneously bombing immigration offices in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa.(pp.12-13) ...On April 2 . .the (Jewish) Agency articulated an official policy of opposition to the terror campaign. . . Despite this opposition, the terror campaign continued
A museum tells the story of the Irgun Zvai Leumi, the organization led by Menachem Begin, which used terrorist methods in its fight against the rule of the British.
British policy was undoubtedly affected by underground terrorism p.15
Bernadotte decided he wanted to take a closer look at the house. He was warned by the Israeli governor too, that the area was notorious for the activities of the Jewish terrorist organizations.p.163
Martha Crenshaw, in her study of Algerian revolutionary terrorism in the 1950s has defined the concept as a systematic method designed to seize political power, characterized by acts of extraordinary violence, and with symbolic targeting designed to have a psychological effect on specific groups of people with an aim of changing political behaviour. The Irgun campaign undoubtedly fits this category.’
Terrorists have become conventional political leaders: Israeli Prime Minister Begin at one time a leader of the Zionist terrorist group Irgun
The government, could have ruthlessly and indiscriminately cracked the Irgun's terrorist campaign, as it did during the Arab revolt in the 1930's. However it refrained from doing so.
the terrorist campaign launched by Irgun in Palestine on 14 November 1937 was not in any way authorized by the commander-in-chief
we can think of only two campaigns of strategic terrorism to have prompted the fundamental political change envisaged by the insurgents. One is the Irgun's campaign to end the British Mandate in Palestine in favour of a Jewish homeland. The other is the FLN’s campaign for Algerian independence.’.
Eight British soldiers die in a bomb attack by Jewish Irgun terrorists on a police station in Jerusalem (6 uses of that word for six episodes in the chronology for this period)
Stern and Irgun terrorism convinced the British to abandon Palestine.
in 1945, the Irgun began a campaign of all-out terrorism.
Beginning in February 1944 , the Irgun and Lehi worked in concert to conduct a terrorist campaign aimed at dislodging the British mandatory government in Palestine.'
The terrorist campaign took the form of isolated murder and attempted murder, of sporadic cases of armed attacks on military police and civilian road transports
In retaliation for Arab attacks on Jewish civilians, Irgun terrorists killed over seventy Arabs in a series of explosions . . The Irgun's bloody terrorist campaign against civilians appalled Zionist leaders in Palestine
The Irgun and Stern gang launched a series of terrorist attacks against British soldiers and the British Mandate government
Irgun would launch a terrorist campaign and utilize the urban landscape of Palestine to blend in until the time was right to strike
I've more coming, but am busy at the moment. Nishidani ( talk) 19:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello, @ Zero0000, @ Nishidani
I think that you didn't notice the arrival of some banned trolls from wp:fr : [5], [6], ...
Covid, Independence Day, ... They have nothing better to do.
Good luck 2A02:2788:925:F87E:64C2:BBBA:BB98:7061 ( talk) 15:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC)