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I am pasting the relevant test from Babasaheb Ambedkars book, "Revolution and Counter Revolution in India". this is essential to understand the date of writing of the Manusmriti
""""It (Buddhism) did not remain as one of the many diverse religions then in vogue. Ashoka made it the religion of the state. This of course was the greatest blow to Brahmanism. The Brahmins lost all state partonage and were neglected to a secondary and subsidiary position in the Empire of Ashoka.
Indeed it may be said to have been suppressed for the simple reason that Ashoka prohibited all animal sacrifices which constituted the very essence of Brahmanic Religion.
The Brahmins had not only lost state partonage but they lost their occupation which mainly consisted in performing sacrifices for a fee which often times was very substantial and which constituted their chief source of living. The Brahmins therefore lived as the suppressed and Depressed Classes2 [f58] for nearly 140 years during which the Maurya Empire lasted.
A rebellion against the Buddhist state was the only way of escape left to the suffering Brahmins and there is special reason why Pushyamitra should raise the banner of revolt against the rule of the Mauryas. Pushyamitra was a Sung by Gotra.
The Sungas were Samvedi Brahmins,3[f59] who believed in animal sacrifices and soma sacrifices. The Sungas were therefore quite naturally smarting under the prohibition on animal sacrifices throughout the Maurya Empire proclaimed in the very Rock Edict by Ashoka.
No wonder if Pushyamitra who as a Samvedi Brahmin was the first to conceive the passion to end the degradation of the Brahmin by destroying the Buddhist state which was the cause of it and to free them to practise their Brahmanic religion.
That the object of the Regicide by Pushyamitra was to destroy Buddhism as a state religion and to make the Brahmins the sovereign rulers of India so that with the political power of the state behind it Brahmanism may triumph over Buddhism is borne out by two other circumstances.
The first circumstance relates to the conduct of Pushyamitra himself. There is evidence that Pushyamitra after he ascended the throne performed the Ashvamedha Yajna or the horse sacrifice, the vedic rite which could only be performed by a paramount sovereign. As Vincent Smith observes :
"The exaggerated regard for the sanctity of animal life, which was one of the most cherished features of Buddhism, and the motive of Ashoka's most characterisitic legislation, had necessarily involved the prohibition of bloody sacrifices, which are essential to certain forms of Brahmanical worship, and were believed by the orthodox to possess the highest saving efficacy. The memorable horse sacrifices of Pushyamitra marked an early stage in the Brahmanical reaction, which was fully developed five centuries later in the time of Samudragupta and his successors."
Then there is evidence that Pushyamitra after his accession launched a violent and virulent campaign of persecution against Buddhists and Buddhism.
How pitiless was the persecution of Buddhism by Pushyamitra can be gauged from the Proclamation which he issued against the Buddhist monks. By this proclamation Pushyamitra set a price of 100 gold pieces on the head of every Buddhist monk. [f60]
Dr. Haraprasad Shastri speaking about the persecution of Buddhists under Pushyamitra says[f61] :
"The condition of the Buddhists under the imperial sway of the Sungas, orthodox and bigotted, can be more easily imagined than described. From Chinese authorities it is known that many Buddhists still do not pronounce the name of Pushyamitra without a curse."
II
If the Revolution of Pushyamitra was a purely political revolution there was no need for him to have launched a compaign of persecution against Buddhism which was not very different to the compaign of persecution launched by the Mahamad of Gazni against Hinduism. This is one piece of circumatantial evidence which proves that the aim of Pushyamitra was to overthrow Buddhism and establish Brahmanism in its place.
Another piece of evidence which shows that the origin and purpose of the revolution by Pushyamitra against the Mauryas was to destroy Buddhism and establish Brahmanism is evidenced by the promulgation of Manu Smriti as a code of laws.
The Manu Smriti is said to be divine in its origin. It is said to be revealed to man by Manu to whom it was revealed by the Swayambhu (i.e. the Creator). This claim, as will be seen from the reference already made to it, is set out in the Code itself. It is surprizing that nobody has cared to examine the grounds of such a claim. The result is that there is a complete failure to realise the significance, place and position of the Manu Smriti in the history of India. This is true even of the historians of India although the Manu Smriti is a record of the greatest social revolution that Hindu society has undergone. There can however be no doubt that the claim made in the Manu Smriti regarding its authorship is an utter fraud and the beliefs arising out of this false claim are quite untenable.
The name Manu had a great prestige in the ancient history of India and it is with the object to invest the code with this ancient prestige that its authorship was attributed to Manu. That this was a fraud to deceive people is beyond question. The code itself is signed[f62] in the family name of Bhrigu as was the ancient custom. "The Text Composed by Bhrigu (entitled) "The Dharma Code of Manu" is the real title of the work. The name Bhrigu is subscribed to the end of every chapter of the Code itself. We have therefore the family name of the author of the Code. His personal name is not disclosed in the Book. All the same it was known to many. The Author of Narada Smriti writing in about the 4th Century A.D. knew the name of the author of the Manu Smriti and gives out the secret. According to Narada it was one Sumati Bhargava who composed the Code of Manu. Sumati Bhargava is not a legendary name, and must have been historical person for even Medhatithe[f63] the great commentator on the Code of Manu held the view that this Manu was 'a certain individual'. Manu therefore is the assumed name of Sumati Bhargava who is the real author of Manu Smriti.
When did this Sumati Bhargava compose this Code? It is not possible to give any precise date for its composition. But quite a precise period during which it was composed can be given. According to scholars whose authority cannot be questioned Sumati Bhargava must have composed the Code which he deliberately called Munu Smriti between 170 B.C. and 150 B.C. Now if one bears in mind the fact that the Brahmanic Revolution by Pushyamitra took place in 185 B.C. there remains no doubt that the code known as Manu Smriti was promulgated by Pushyamitra as embodying the principles of Brahmanic Revolution against the Buddhist state of the Mauryas. That the Manu Smriti forms the Institutes of Brahmanism and are a proof that Pushyamitra Revolution was not a purely personal adventure will be clear to any one who cares to note the following peculiarities relating to the Manu Smriti."""" http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/19B.Revolution%20and%20Counter%20Rev.in%20Ancient%20India%20PART%20II.htm#a7
The bit where the manusmriti is dated as being composed around 200BCE has no references and seems to be a ridiculously late date. While it is a fact that the greek invaded around that time, most of the tribes mentioned there are said to have been exiled from the northwestern parts of Afghanistan - this is recorded in the Puranas. So the justification for the date (200 BCE) is no more tenable than my claim. Until a solid reference based on proper historical research (as opposed to historical conjecture) is given, the chronology should be removed.
This page seems to have been hijacked by people with a (possibly) genuine grevience against Manusmriti. It shows only the point of view of one section of people. But, that has no place on wikipedia if it is supposed to be neutral. This page should probably be rewitten from scratch.
Did anyone notice that this article simply goes on about how the caste system is a way of subjugating those born into "lower" castes? What about the other things that are in the Manusmriti? Like sexuality, for example? This article takes a negative tone about the entire works and does not consider it as a whole.
I had edited this page yesterday, but it is gone. To start with let me propose that hindu mythology doesn't say that Manu is forefather of "human race", it is (wo)man . the race word should be omitted.
Can the person who has added a story on Pushymitra reply on why is such interpretation is important to be included here, if not for derogatory purposes. Historians have been saying all sorts of things, of how fair skinned aryans invaded the dravidians, and that is all about the roots and everything that sprang from it. Such stuff should be edited out from hinduism pages, instead be contained in history pages.
In the late 1970's, Prof. Dr. Surendra Kumar had done a research work on Manusmriti to remove all interpolations. He research work has been published by Arsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi in the form of Sampoorna Manusmriti. It had received a wide applause from the Vedic Scholars and Arya Samaj Mandirs in India. This book claims it is the first successful attempt at removing all interpolations. In this book, the researcher has given detailed commentary on all verses in Manusmriti and also explained in detail regarding why a particular verse was an interpoltion. Later Vishuddha Manusmriti was published which contained only the authoritative verses and all interpolations removed. Since there had been no article speaking about this work, also taking into consideration the importance of this book (all Arya Samaj mandirs and vedic scholars in India at present refer to only this work in all matters pertaining to Manusmriti), i have added an article. plz covey ur views. Rockwillgetu
The formatting for the Table of Contents taken from Olivelle needs to be fixed and the whole thing properly cited.
Drdj ( talk) 03:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Er, where is the source for this very matter-of-fact assertion that the god whom Megasthenes describes as Hercules was in fact "Hari Krishna"? -- SohanDsouza ( talk) 09:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bharuci wrote a commentary in 7th century BC while manusmrii was written 2nd century BC? Is that some kind of a joke?? Vishal Agrawal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.12.149 ( talk) 15:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Did anyone notice a pattern on what appears to be how all Wiki articles talk about all Hiduism texts date only back to a few centuries BC? I did see some articles saying words like "some believe it was written around 1000 BC" and later I find such text magically disappear.
Of course, we need valid references. But most times the "valid" part becomes something as in researched by a Western scholor, researched in Western style. Doesn't it? I saw it in other Hinduism articles' talk pages. Please consider Veda's for example. Valmiki is another best example. He is dated to a date which is established by a Western scholor, no Indian/eastern or traditional perspective is presented.
My proposal is to present all traditional, eastern, Indian and Western opinions as well. As far as Indian texts are concerned, let's not try to declare "authoritative" dates, because the dates can only be "considered authoritative". 168.159.160.57 ( talk) 14:40, 5 September 2011 (UTC) Guttina
This article is completely non-neutral and does not conform to Wikipedia standards. It looks like the author of this article has a very biased opinion about Manusmriti in particular and the sacred scriptures in general. In my opinion, it is best to leave the choice, to the reader, of deciding the merit of the work only after reading it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.81.17.55 ( talk) 20:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Some user deleting following most controversial part continuously. It shall be stopped. If anybody thinks presentation style is not good, it can be changed.but deleting this part will make article incomplete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JUGAL70 ( talk • contribs)
Some wiki administrator adopt a very different technique to protect a biased & Non neutral articles. They create a sock account ( another account) and start vandalism of article themselves. Delete text without any thought in mind and after half an hour they login to their real account(now they are wiki administrator] start using template for protection of page. They write something [ vandalism, excessive OR, disruption, sockpuppetry].Pgae is protected for 2 months or 1 year.
If you do not believe what i wrote please check this page as on 14:04, 24 April 2010
Text added with number of reliable references mostly Google Books about widely talked controversies in Manusmriti.User or wiki admin SpacemanSpiff used sock account name Shiladitya78, deleted some text and protected this article removing Laws of Manusmriti for women and Shudra.Later Shiladitya78 blocked indefinitely.
-- 117.192.176.152 ( talk) 16:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
You are claiming that an admin is using a sock account. Take it to WP:ANI and/or WP:UC. Thanks. -- dab (𒁳) 20:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
From page 635 of The Earth and Its Peoples, Third Edition:
The British and Indian elites danced sometimes in close partnership, sometimes in apparent opposition. But the ordinary people of India suffered. Women of every status, members of subordinate Hindu castes, the “untouchables” and “tribals” outside the caste system, and the poor generally experienced less benefit from the British reforms and much new oppression from the taxes and “traditions” that exalted their superiors’ status.
Hokie Tech ( talk) 14:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
This
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There is no narration in Patrick Olivelle's "The Law Code of Manu" : Intruduction- page xxx. Please remove the request to help. If you need proof, let me know, I can send you a copy.
Hirdip ( talk) 14:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Not sure I'm doing this right, just wanted to point out the bit taken from Twilight that it's suggested here is a criticism of Manusmrti is an obvious and possibly intentional misrepresentation of of the text and Nietzsche's intent. The explanation at Tschandala is much more helpful and accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.45.144.250 ( talk) 11:14, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I have reverted multiple edits by User:Naveen Reddy which changed section titles, biased the lead, had incomplete citations (missing page numbers) or unreliable sources (e.g. a blog) and amounted to massive POV pushing. They were also written like an essay. Elsewhere, e.g. in this edit, the user has inserted the same blog links as a source, which he calls "an excellent source" and given highly POV summary which reads "Excellent reference to prove my point that manusmrithi is a ultra racist document ! which screwed destiny of India", speaks about the reliability of the edits of the user. For this article, there is a section on criticism and criticism should be confined to that section from reliable sources. Yojakanaaman ( talk) 06:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Naveen Reddy 16:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naveen Reddy ( talk • contribs)
The last foot note by the Canadian professor seems to present a balanced and neutral appraisal of the "Manu Way" and goes further showing it's relative position to some of the other variants or strains. That's POV too I suppose; but, I suggest that more of his work be incorporated into the the main page. Good work; interesting stuff.
Regards, PSW. four tiledes Psw808 ( talk) 22:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
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In this article of 'Manu Smriti' which is the sacred law book of Hinduism, given by the father of human society 'Manu' from whose name humans are called 'Man' in English, there appears to be a major biased element. The section called 'Salient features of Manu Smriti' has been taken from a biased source and is not presenting the true, factual and unbiased information about the scripture. THIS HURTS THE RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS OF OVER A BILLION HINDUS WORLDOVER and thus, it is my request that please delete this section and replace it with the information from a valid and unbiased source like the opinion of an expert indologist with some reputed university. Thanks. Rasabiharidas ( talk) 09:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
"8a. Many feel Manusmrithi is so unjust and so out of tune with our existing values that even an objective exposition reads like a severe condemnation. Many Indians reject varna-vyavastha because it is irrational, unjust and undemocratic,is being opposed to the democratic and human values of liberty, equality and fraternity."
Clearly the above is just biased ranting. It doesn't have a place in an encyclopedia, although it should be in an essay. I think this makes the article deserving of a POV banner. 125.17.230.98 ( talk) 10:09, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Several tags have been put on the page on 11th Sept. 2012, like Confusing, Unrelated sources, Have Intricate Details, Grammer, Cohesion, Spellings, Reorganise, Relocation of Information, Very Long, Needs Splitting. It is not that bad as it is made out to be. There are 59 citations, most of them from Book it self, which are relevent and genuine. Yes, reorganisation is required as some contents are repeated. Also unnecessary stress on 'commentries' has to be removed and contents of book have to be given more importance. Sudhirkbhargava ( talk) 04:32, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
The article claims that the work is approximately 10,000 years old and does not question the historicity of Manu. The article also presents as fact the notion that Manu lived after the last glaciation "10,000 years ago". First of all, the las glaciation ended around 12,500 years ago. At that time the inhabitants of India were not Aryans (the foundational element of the Hindu religions and Indian civilization). Aryans only appear in India around 1,500 B.C (perhaps as early as 2,000 B,C.). This is attested by archaeology, analysis of religion-mythological texts, linguistic analysis and DNA analysis. The emergence of Vedic culture (which produced the Laws of Manu and all the other great works of ancient Indian literature, religion and philosophy) has been universally dated to around those dates (i.e., 2,000 to 1,500 B.C.). The Laws of Manu were probably compiled around 100 B.C to 100 A.D. according to linguistic analysis, although their origins most likely go back several centuries back. As someone else mentioned . This article needs to be rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.206.228.134 ( talk) 03:21, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Law of Thailand#Sources of Law reads:
The Rattanakosin Kingdom and the four traditionally counted preceding kingdoms, collectively called Siam, had a largely uncodified constitution until 1932. In the King of Siam's preamble to the Penal Code which was promulgated on April 1, 1908, and came into operation on September 21st, his Majesty the king said: "In the ancient times the monarchs of the Siamese nation governed their people with laws which were originally derived from the Dhamasustra of Manu, which was then the prevailing law among the inhabitants of India and the neighbouring countries." [1]—
- ^ T. Masao, D.C.L., LL.D., Senior Legal Adviser to H.S.M.'s Government and Judge of H.S.M.'s Supreme Court (Digitized 2008) [1908]. "Siamese law : old and new.". In Wright, Arnold; Breakspear, Oliver T (eds.). Twentieth century impressions of Siam (65.3 MB). London&c: Lloyds Greater Britain Publishing Company. p. 91. Retrieved January 28, 2012.
Such was also the conclusion arrived at by the writer of the present article in a paper read before the Siam Society of Bangkok in 1905, in which the writer endeavoured to show by textual comparisons that the ancient Siamese laws were derived from the Manuic laws of India.{{ cite book}}
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( help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( link)
How may H.S.M.'s remark be incorporated into the article.? — Pawyilee ( talk) 14:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
In the first section date and place: of Haryana in the districts of Mahendragarh and Rewari on the basis of images of paleochannals [14] of these rivers from satellites, geo-morphological studies of the soils, which confirm presence of soil particles of Himalayan rocks in the areas represented by Saraswati river, and mentions of the area in Mahabharat, Rigved, Shatapatha Brahmana, Manusmriti and various Puranas.[15] As per epic 'Mahabharat' Bhrigu Rishi had his Ashram at 'Deepotsak' on 'Vadhusar' river, and his son Chyavana, on Dhosi Hill [16] a tributary of Drishadwati river, in the Vedic state of 'Brahmavarta'. Mahabharat and Rig Ved are misspelled. it is Mahabharata and Rig Veda, can someone please change this?
Some editors have objected to the antiquity of Manusmriti, without giving any reliable source. If they have any source, please discuss here. Not only Manu was a flood period seer (8000BCE), his compariot and contemporary Bhrigu seer had lived in the Vedic state of Brahmavarta, the land between two revered rivers Saraswati and Drishadwati. The terms used by Manu for the first time like Verna, Brahmin, Kshatriya in assigning the roles for various communities were frequently used in Rigveda, (Dates suggested for the composition of Rigveda range from 6000BCE-1000BCE, Upinder Singh 2008, A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India, page 185) Ramayana (5200 BCE) and Mahabharata (3100BCE). Several archaeological findings, agricultural activities and use of Copper during that time has already been found in the Vedic state of Aryavarta which date to before 9000 years ago, like Bhirrana, Mehrgarh, Bhimbetka, Dwarka Lost City in Gulf of Cambay etc. These findings also infer that this was not a stone age in this part of the world but Copper age. Sudhirkbhargava ( talk) 04:50, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Manu was originally a King Satyavrata based on Mahabharath. More over Ambedkar mentioned in "Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Ancient India" that "pre-Manu days a woman was free and equal partner of man. Why did Manu degrade her?" Ambedkar also mentioned that pre-Manu period allowed women to learn Vedas and were as free as men; If Vedas are the rocks upon which Hinduism is built upon, what has a King's Laws to do with Hinduism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.58.6 ( talk) 19:57, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
— Pawyilee ( talk) 05:56, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
If at all you want to give your views on Manuvad or Manuvada, give them under commentries, not on the introductory para. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.140.117 ( talk) 14:20, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Manuvadi or Manuvada are confusing and irrelevent words and cannot be mentioned on this page, keeping in mind the context they are used in. By Manuvadi, a political party in a state in India means those who believe in Manusmriti. This word is used by them to incite the Dalits for their political gains and create hatred towards Brahmins, Rajputs and Vaishyas. Manusmriti has some 2700 shalokas describing how to live life and contains topics from Big Bang to duties and responsibilities of kings, about family, society etc. etc. It also describes the four varnas, how the varnas can be changed, how a Brahim becomes a Shudra or a Shudra becomes a Brahim. If some one is Manuvadi as pointed by politicians, he must be following what is mentioned in Manusmriti. Manusmriti is not against Dalits as mentioned by politicians. It is wrong interpretation which is creating problems. I have never come across the word Manuvada. You are giving a meaning to it yourself. Please give some citations and context where they are used. Sudhirkbhargava ( talk) 19:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
seriously, you may have created the Manuvada stub, but apparently you did it off the top of your head, and you did not bother to cite a single reference. Whatever happened to WP:CITE? I googled a bit and tried to find some context, but this is your article, not mine. By all means you should try and compile decent coverage on this. Once and after you have done that, of course there should be mention of it in the "Modern reception" section in this article, discussing the role of the Manusmriti in current day hardcore Hindu nationalism, but this is hardly going to warrant more than a brief paragraph, as it certainly isn't this article's main focus. It's, idk, if there was some freaky conservative party in the west who wanted to reinstitute medieval serfdom, this wouldn't be worth more than a footnote in the article on actual, historical, serfdom in the Middle Ages. The existence of kooks should never distract from the discussion of a serious historical topic ( WP:FRINGE). -- dab (𒁳) 13:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I think it should be limited with "ambedkar", as later he was buddhist, and not to mention the previous suggested "writer of constitution" which is obvious WP:FRINGE as constitution was borrowed from many other writings. Bladesmulti ( talk) 09:58, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Frawley and Hancock are absolutely *not* credible sources on history. Wjhonson ( talk) 20:51, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
comparative study of Manusmiti and Yagnavalkya smriti — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.187.130 ( talk) 11:27, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Human3015: If you study this edit, you will note that I had merely reformatted Neitzsche's paragraph from a list into text, per MOS. I did not delete anything there yet. I am yet to check sources on that to verify it, which I will do when I get to it. Have you verified the views on Manusmriti that are attributed to Friedrich Nietzsche in this article? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 13:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
article lacks NPOV and seems to be POV Pushing. You have deleted sourced matter
*deemed it "an incomparably spiritual and superior work" to the Christian Bible.
- observed that "the sun shines on the whole book" and attributed its ethical perspective to "the noble classes, the philosophers and warriors, [who] stand above the mass." [1]
- endorsed the political exclusion that Manu's system was considered to bring. [2]
.
I think you continue your editing, I will review it later, because you may have many things to add so first you complete your edits. -- Human3015 Send WikiLove 14:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
References
@ Human3015: Did I, are you sure? The above text was and is still there, only the format is different !! It now reads,
Check again. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:16, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
(ps): For reason why I converted the bulleted list into text, see this from MOS guideline. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
@Human3015: I suggest you or someone consolidate Nietzsche's views in one place in that section, along with adding recent scholarly secondary sources on Nietzsche's views on Manusmriti. The current section has two paragraphs in the middle and then the last paragraph. Add Gavin Flood's clarification that Nietzsche read Jacolliot's translation and commentary on Manusmriti, which has since been questioned. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:34, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Human3015: I will move the POV tag to a relevant section, based on my understanding of your concerns above. Feel free to add it to other sections as well, but with an explanation on this talk page, as to what your concern is with each section you POV-section tag. Your specific comments may help improve those sections. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 03:17, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
The overall tone of the article, with references from 18-19th century writers gives a biased, congratulatory appraisal of manusmrti without giving sufficient countenance to the criticisms it has sustained by contemporary authors over its contents.
Furthermore, the critical reasons as to why these authors so believed and, in particular, which part or parts of the text the particular appraisal refers to will provide readers with a more neutral article.
-- Avedeus ( talk) 13:50, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Bo99: Blogs such as this by Taimur Khan are not acceptable or reliable sources (per WP:RS). If you wish to add Kaufman's comment, you must include the page number and a faithful summary from the source, not from a blog, for WP:V. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 07:41, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
'Ms Sarah Welch': regarding this diff page:
1. Explain why you claim that the statement of fact, that you deleted that Nietzsche quotation, is 'a personal attack' on you, as you stated in the Edit Summary for that deletion.
2. Give a citation to a formal Wikipedia source for your seeming claim, in that diff page's Edit Summary, that temporary hidden comments are not permitted to be placed in that useful centralized place (i.e. the article text). I have never come across such a source but would like to see one.
3. I'm ok with deleting essentially all the primary, Nietzsche quotations. But if you are going to include a supposed Nietzsche view to the effect that the Manu book is very positive, then we also need to include Nietzsche's view that the Manu book is very negative. Which do you prefer? Misconceptions about Nietzsche’s views on ethics are legion, as stated by Kaufmann in yet another quotation that you deleted, here.
4. In all of that, pls try: to take time; to read, think, and write with precision and clarity; and to bear in mind that you have been deleting the volunteered, hard work of various other people. Bo99 ( talk) 11:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
@Bo99: I am going to ignore your lecturing, as responding to it is unproductive and improper forum-y use of this talk page. Yes, if you present a specific reliable source, which hasn't been summarized, we will add it to the article.
Now, let us focus on the specific page number you give in your 2.6. You claim page 212 in Walter Kaufmann's Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist book refers to Manu or Manusmriti. In the version I am looking at, it does not. The first line starts with "sheer perversions. John Stuart Mill...." and the last line ends with "less clearly defined sense of awe...". In the book I have, section II starts at page 216 and there too in the 5th paragraph I see no mention of Manu or Manusmriti. There is something on "law of Manu" on page 225, which I already summarized in the article, a while ago. May be we are looking at different editions? It would help if you can provide a quote of the few sentences where you see Manu or Manusmriti or "Law of Manu" from page 212. The Khan blog is not acceptable. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 17:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
@Bo99: The article already has a summary of "laws of Manu" related content that is on page 215, Section 3 of the Kaufmann's book From Shakespeare To Existentialism. You can't add WP:OR into this article after interpreting what is on other pages, sections, chapter of Kaufmann's book, and assuming it to be about Manusmriti. WK is discussing Kierkegaard, Kant, Christianity, Bradley, Aristotle and others in that chapter and Section 2. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 19:46, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welch writes "see talk page discussion from few weeks ago, this is not in the sources, undue OR", [1], but sources are reliable and they clearly state that the acclaimed quotes and insights the positive view about Manusmriti by the named authors. They are noted as admirer on the named sources, which part have you missed? Capitals00 ( talk) 04:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I am pasting the relevant test from Babasaheb Ambedkars book, "Revolution and Counter Revolution in India". this is essential to understand the date of writing of the Manusmriti
""""It (Buddhism) did not remain as one of the many diverse religions then in vogue. Ashoka made it the religion of the state. This of course was the greatest blow to Brahmanism. The Brahmins lost all state partonage and were neglected to a secondary and subsidiary position in the Empire of Ashoka.
Indeed it may be said to have been suppressed for the simple reason that Ashoka prohibited all animal sacrifices which constituted the very essence of Brahmanic Religion.
The Brahmins had not only lost state partonage but they lost their occupation which mainly consisted in performing sacrifices for a fee which often times was very substantial and which constituted their chief source of living. The Brahmins therefore lived as the suppressed and Depressed Classes2 [f58] for nearly 140 years during which the Maurya Empire lasted.
A rebellion against the Buddhist state was the only way of escape left to the suffering Brahmins and there is special reason why Pushyamitra should raise the banner of revolt against the rule of the Mauryas. Pushyamitra was a Sung by Gotra.
The Sungas were Samvedi Brahmins,3[f59] who believed in animal sacrifices and soma sacrifices. The Sungas were therefore quite naturally smarting under the prohibition on animal sacrifices throughout the Maurya Empire proclaimed in the very Rock Edict by Ashoka.
No wonder if Pushyamitra who as a Samvedi Brahmin was the first to conceive the passion to end the degradation of the Brahmin by destroying the Buddhist state which was the cause of it and to free them to practise their Brahmanic religion.
That the object of the Regicide by Pushyamitra was to destroy Buddhism as a state religion and to make the Brahmins the sovereign rulers of India so that with the political power of the state behind it Brahmanism may triumph over Buddhism is borne out by two other circumstances.
The first circumstance relates to the conduct of Pushyamitra himself. There is evidence that Pushyamitra after he ascended the throne performed the Ashvamedha Yajna or the horse sacrifice, the vedic rite which could only be performed by a paramount sovereign. As Vincent Smith observes :
"The exaggerated regard for the sanctity of animal life, which was one of the most cherished features of Buddhism, and the motive of Ashoka's most characterisitic legislation, had necessarily involved the prohibition of bloody sacrifices, which are essential to certain forms of Brahmanical worship, and were believed by the orthodox to possess the highest saving efficacy. The memorable horse sacrifices of Pushyamitra marked an early stage in the Brahmanical reaction, which was fully developed five centuries later in the time of Samudragupta and his successors."
Then there is evidence that Pushyamitra after his accession launched a violent and virulent campaign of persecution against Buddhists and Buddhism.
How pitiless was the persecution of Buddhism by Pushyamitra can be gauged from the Proclamation which he issued against the Buddhist monks. By this proclamation Pushyamitra set a price of 100 gold pieces on the head of every Buddhist monk. [f60]
Dr. Haraprasad Shastri speaking about the persecution of Buddhists under Pushyamitra says[f61] :
"The condition of the Buddhists under the imperial sway of the Sungas, orthodox and bigotted, can be more easily imagined than described. From Chinese authorities it is known that many Buddhists still do not pronounce the name of Pushyamitra without a curse."
II
If the Revolution of Pushyamitra was a purely political revolution there was no need for him to have launched a compaign of persecution against Buddhism which was not very different to the compaign of persecution launched by the Mahamad of Gazni against Hinduism. This is one piece of circumatantial evidence which proves that the aim of Pushyamitra was to overthrow Buddhism and establish Brahmanism in its place.
Another piece of evidence which shows that the origin and purpose of the revolution by Pushyamitra against the Mauryas was to destroy Buddhism and establish Brahmanism is evidenced by the promulgation of Manu Smriti as a code of laws.
The Manu Smriti is said to be divine in its origin. It is said to be revealed to man by Manu to whom it was revealed by the Swayambhu (i.e. the Creator). This claim, as will be seen from the reference already made to it, is set out in the Code itself. It is surprizing that nobody has cared to examine the grounds of such a claim. The result is that there is a complete failure to realise the significance, place and position of the Manu Smriti in the history of India. This is true even of the historians of India although the Manu Smriti is a record of the greatest social revolution that Hindu society has undergone. There can however be no doubt that the claim made in the Manu Smriti regarding its authorship is an utter fraud and the beliefs arising out of this false claim are quite untenable.
The name Manu had a great prestige in the ancient history of India and it is with the object to invest the code with this ancient prestige that its authorship was attributed to Manu. That this was a fraud to deceive people is beyond question. The code itself is signed[f62] in the family name of Bhrigu as was the ancient custom. "The Text Composed by Bhrigu (entitled) "The Dharma Code of Manu" is the real title of the work. The name Bhrigu is subscribed to the end of every chapter of the Code itself. We have therefore the family name of the author of the Code. His personal name is not disclosed in the Book. All the same it was known to many. The Author of Narada Smriti writing in about the 4th Century A.D. knew the name of the author of the Manu Smriti and gives out the secret. According to Narada it was one Sumati Bhargava who composed the Code of Manu. Sumati Bhargava is not a legendary name, and must have been historical person for even Medhatithe[f63] the great commentator on the Code of Manu held the view that this Manu was 'a certain individual'. Manu therefore is the assumed name of Sumati Bhargava who is the real author of Manu Smriti.
When did this Sumati Bhargava compose this Code? It is not possible to give any precise date for its composition. But quite a precise period during which it was composed can be given. According to scholars whose authority cannot be questioned Sumati Bhargava must have composed the Code which he deliberately called Munu Smriti between 170 B.C. and 150 B.C. Now if one bears in mind the fact that the Brahmanic Revolution by Pushyamitra took place in 185 B.C. there remains no doubt that the code known as Manu Smriti was promulgated by Pushyamitra as embodying the principles of Brahmanic Revolution against the Buddhist state of the Mauryas. That the Manu Smriti forms the Institutes of Brahmanism and are a proof that Pushyamitra Revolution was not a purely personal adventure will be clear to any one who cares to note the following peculiarities relating to the Manu Smriti."""" http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/19B.Revolution%20and%20Counter%20Rev.in%20Ancient%20India%20PART%20II.htm#a7
The bit where the manusmriti is dated as being composed around 200BCE has no references and seems to be a ridiculously late date. While it is a fact that the greek invaded around that time, most of the tribes mentioned there are said to have been exiled from the northwestern parts of Afghanistan - this is recorded in the Puranas. So the justification for the date (200 BCE) is no more tenable than my claim. Until a solid reference based on proper historical research (as opposed to historical conjecture) is given, the chronology should be removed.
This page seems to have been hijacked by people with a (possibly) genuine grevience against Manusmriti. It shows only the point of view of one section of people. But, that has no place on wikipedia if it is supposed to be neutral. This page should probably be rewitten from scratch.
Did anyone notice that this article simply goes on about how the caste system is a way of subjugating those born into "lower" castes? What about the other things that are in the Manusmriti? Like sexuality, for example? This article takes a negative tone about the entire works and does not consider it as a whole.
I had edited this page yesterday, but it is gone. To start with let me propose that hindu mythology doesn't say that Manu is forefather of "human race", it is (wo)man . the race word should be omitted.
Can the person who has added a story on Pushymitra reply on why is such interpretation is important to be included here, if not for derogatory purposes. Historians have been saying all sorts of things, of how fair skinned aryans invaded the dravidians, and that is all about the roots and everything that sprang from it. Such stuff should be edited out from hinduism pages, instead be contained in history pages.
In the late 1970's, Prof. Dr. Surendra Kumar had done a research work on Manusmriti to remove all interpolations. He research work has been published by Arsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi in the form of Sampoorna Manusmriti. It had received a wide applause from the Vedic Scholars and Arya Samaj Mandirs in India. This book claims it is the first successful attempt at removing all interpolations. In this book, the researcher has given detailed commentary on all verses in Manusmriti and also explained in detail regarding why a particular verse was an interpoltion. Later Vishuddha Manusmriti was published which contained only the authoritative verses and all interpolations removed. Since there had been no article speaking about this work, also taking into consideration the importance of this book (all Arya Samaj mandirs and vedic scholars in India at present refer to only this work in all matters pertaining to Manusmriti), i have added an article. plz covey ur views. Rockwillgetu
The formatting for the Table of Contents taken from Olivelle needs to be fixed and the whole thing properly cited.
Drdj ( talk) 03:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Er, where is the source for this very matter-of-fact assertion that the god whom Megasthenes describes as Hercules was in fact "Hari Krishna"? -- SohanDsouza ( talk) 09:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Bharuci wrote a commentary in 7th century BC while manusmrii was written 2nd century BC? Is that some kind of a joke?? Vishal Agrawal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.12.149 ( talk) 15:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Did anyone notice a pattern on what appears to be how all Wiki articles talk about all Hiduism texts date only back to a few centuries BC? I did see some articles saying words like "some believe it was written around 1000 BC" and later I find such text magically disappear.
Of course, we need valid references. But most times the "valid" part becomes something as in researched by a Western scholor, researched in Western style. Doesn't it? I saw it in other Hinduism articles' talk pages. Please consider Veda's for example. Valmiki is another best example. He is dated to a date which is established by a Western scholor, no Indian/eastern or traditional perspective is presented.
My proposal is to present all traditional, eastern, Indian and Western opinions as well. As far as Indian texts are concerned, let's not try to declare "authoritative" dates, because the dates can only be "considered authoritative". 168.159.160.57 ( talk) 14:40, 5 September 2011 (UTC) Guttina
This article is completely non-neutral and does not conform to Wikipedia standards. It looks like the author of this article has a very biased opinion about Manusmriti in particular and the sacred scriptures in general. In my opinion, it is best to leave the choice, to the reader, of deciding the merit of the work only after reading it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.81.17.55 ( talk) 20:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Some user deleting following most controversial part continuously. It shall be stopped. If anybody thinks presentation style is not good, it can be changed.but deleting this part will make article incomplete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JUGAL70 ( talk • contribs)
Some wiki administrator adopt a very different technique to protect a biased & Non neutral articles. They create a sock account ( another account) and start vandalism of article themselves. Delete text without any thought in mind and after half an hour they login to their real account(now they are wiki administrator] start using template for protection of page. They write something [ vandalism, excessive OR, disruption, sockpuppetry].Pgae is protected for 2 months or 1 year.
If you do not believe what i wrote please check this page as on 14:04, 24 April 2010
Text added with number of reliable references mostly Google Books about widely talked controversies in Manusmriti.User or wiki admin SpacemanSpiff used sock account name Shiladitya78, deleted some text and protected this article removing Laws of Manusmriti for women and Shudra.Later Shiladitya78 blocked indefinitely.
-- 117.192.176.152 ( talk) 16:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
You are claiming that an admin is using a sock account. Take it to WP:ANI and/or WP:UC. Thanks. -- dab (𒁳) 20:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
From page 635 of The Earth and Its Peoples, Third Edition:
The British and Indian elites danced sometimes in close partnership, sometimes in apparent opposition. But the ordinary people of India suffered. Women of every status, members of subordinate Hindu castes, the “untouchables” and “tribals” outside the caste system, and the poor generally experienced less benefit from the British reforms and much new oppression from the taxes and “traditions” that exalted their superiors’ status.
Hokie Tech ( talk) 14:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This section is empty. You can help by
adding to it. (January 2011) |
There is no narration in Patrick Olivelle's "The Law Code of Manu" : Intruduction- page xxx. Please remove the request to help. If you need proof, let me know, I can send you a copy.
Hirdip ( talk) 14:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Not sure I'm doing this right, just wanted to point out the bit taken from Twilight that it's suggested here is a criticism of Manusmrti is an obvious and possibly intentional misrepresentation of of the text and Nietzsche's intent. The explanation at Tschandala is much more helpful and accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.45.144.250 ( talk) 11:14, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
I have reverted multiple edits by User:Naveen Reddy which changed section titles, biased the lead, had incomplete citations (missing page numbers) or unreliable sources (e.g. a blog) and amounted to massive POV pushing. They were also written like an essay. Elsewhere, e.g. in this edit, the user has inserted the same blog links as a source, which he calls "an excellent source" and given highly POV summary which reads "Excellent reference to prove my point that manusmrithi is a ultra racist document ! which screwed destiny of India", speaks about the reliability of the edits of the user. For this article, there is a section on criticism and criticism should be confined to that section from reliable sources. Yojakanaaman ( talk) 06:20, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Naveen Reddy 16:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naveen Reddy ( talk • contribs)
The last foot note by the Canadian professor seems to present a balanced and neutral appraisal of the "Manu Way" and goes further showing it's relative position to some of the other variants or strains. That's POV too I suppose; but, I suggest that more of his work be incorporated into the the main page. Good work; interesting stuff.
Regards, PSW. four tiledes Psw808 ( talk) 22:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
This
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In this article of 'Manu Smriti' which is the sacred law book of Hinduism, given by the father of human society 'Manu' from whose name humans are called 'Man' in English, there appears to be a major biased element. The section called 'Salient features of Manu Smriti' has been taken from a biased source and is not presenting the true, factual and unbiased information about the scripture. THIS HURTS THE RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS OF OVER A BILLION HINDUS WORLDOVER and thus, it is my request that please delete this section and replace it with the information from a valid and unbiased source like the opinion of an expert indologist with some reputed university. Thanks. Rasabiharidas ( talk) 09:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
"8a. Many feel Manusmrithi is so unjust and so out of tune with our existing values that even an objective exposition reads like a severe condemnation. Many Indians reject varna-vyavastha because it is irrational, unjust and undemocratic,is being opposed to the democratic and human values of liberty, equality and fraternity."
Clearly the above is just biased ranting. It doesn't have a place in an encyclopedia, although it should be in an essay. I think this makes the article deserving of a POV banner. 125.17.230.98 ( talk) 10:09, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Several tags have been put on the page on 11th Sept. 2012, like Confusing, Unrelated sources, Have Intricate Details, Grammer, Cohesion, Spellings, Reorganise, Relocation of Information, Very Long, Needs Splitting. It is not that bad as it is made out to be. There are 59 citations, most of them from Book it self, which are relevent and genuine. Yes, reorganisation is required as some contents are repeated. Also unnecessary stress on 'commentries' has to be removed and contents of book have to be given more importance. Sudhirkbhargava ( talk) 04:32, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
The article claims that the work is approximately 10,000 years old and does not question the historicity of Manu. The article also presents as fact the notion that Manu lived after the last glaciation "10,000 years ago". First of all, the las glaciation ended around 12,500 years ago. At that time the inhabitants of India were not Aryans (the foundational element of the Hindu religions and Indian civilization). Aryans only appear in India around 1,500 B.C (perhaps as early as 2,000 B,C.). This is attested by archaeology, analysis of religion-mythological texts, linguistic analysis and DNA analysis. The emergence of Vedic culture (which produced the Laws of Manu and all the other great works of ancient Indian literature, religion and philosophy) has been universally dated to around those dates (i.e., 2,000 to 1,500 B.C.). The Laws of Manu were probably compiled around 100 B.C to 100 A.D. according to linguistic analysis, although their origins most likely go back several centuries back. As someone else mentioned . This article needs to be rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.206.228.134 ( talk) 03:21, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Law of Thailand#Sources of Law reads:
The Rattanakosin Kingdom and the four traditionally counted preceding kingdoms, collectively called Siam, had a largely uncodified constitution until 1932. In the King of Siam's preamble to the Penal Code which was promulgated on April 1, 1908, and came into operation on September 21st, his Majesty the king said: "In the ancient times the monarchs of the Siamese nation governed their people with laws which were originally derived from the Dhamasustra of Manu, which was then the prevailing law among the inhabitants of India and the neighbouring countries." [1]—
- ^ T. Masao, D.C.L., LL.D., Senior Legal Adviser to H.S.M.'s Government and Judge of H.S.M.'s Supreme Court (Digitized 2008) [1908]. "Siamese law : old and new.". In Wright, Arnold; Breakspear, Oliver T (eds.). Twentieth century impressions of Siam (65.3 MB). London&c: Lloyds Greater Britain Publishing Company. p. 91. Retrieved January 28, 2012.
Such was also the conclusion arrived at by the writer of the present article in a paper read before the Siam Society of Bangkok in 1905, in which the writer endeavoured to show by textual comparisons that the ancient Siamese laws were derived from the Manuic laws of India.{{ cite book}}
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( help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( link)
How may H.S.M.'s remark be incorporated into the article.? — Pawyilee ( talk) 14:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
In the first section date and place: of Haryana in the districts of Mahendragarh and Rewari on the basis of images of paleochannals [14] of these rivers from satellites, geo-morphological studies of the soils, which confirm presence of soil particles of Himalayan rocks in the areas represented by Saraswati river, and mentions of the area in Mahabharat, Rigved, Shatapatha Brahmana, Manusmriti and various Puranas.[15] As per epic 'Mahabharat' Bhrigu Rishi had his Ashram at 'Deepotsak' on 'Vadhusar' river, and his son Chyavana, on Dhosi Hill [16] a tributary of Drishadwati river, in the Vedic state of 'Brahmavarta'. Mahabharat and Rig Ved are misspelled. it is Mahabharata and Rig Veda, can someone please change this?
Some editors have objected to the antiquity of Manusmriti, without giving any reliable source. If they have any source, please discuss here. Not only Manu was a flood period seer (8000BCE), his compariot and contemporary Bhrigu seer had lived in the Vedic state of Brahmavarta, the land between two revered rivers Saraswati and Drishadwati. The terms used by Manu for the first time like Verna, Brahmin, Kshatriya in assigning the roles for various communities were frequently used in Rigveda, (Dates suggested for the composition of Rigveda range from 6000BCE-1000BCE, Upinder Singh 2008, A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India, page 185) Ramayana (5200 BCE) and Mahabharata (3100BCE). Several archaeological findings, agricultural activities and use of Copper during that time has already been found in the Vedic state of Aryavarta which date to before 9000 years ago, like Bhirrana, Mehrgarh, Bhimbetka, Dwarka Lost City in Gulf of Cambay etc. These findings also infer that this was not a stone age in this part of the world but Copper age. Sudhirkbhargava ( talk) 04:50, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Manu was originally a King Satyavrata based on Mahabharath. More over Ambedkar mentioned in "Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Ancient India" that "pre-Manu days a woman was free and equal partner of man. Why did Manu degrade her?" Ambedkar also mentioned that pre-Manu period allowed women to learn Vedas and were as free as men; If Vedas are the rocks upon which Hinduism is built upon, what has a King's Laws to do with Hinduism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.58.6 ( talk) 19:57, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
— Pawyilee ( talk) 05:56, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
If at all you want to give your views on Manuvad or Manuvada, give them under commentries, not on the introductory para. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.140.117 ( talk) 14:20, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Manuvadi or Manuvada are confusing and irrelevent words and cannot be mentioned on this page, keeping in mind the context they are used in. By Manuvadi, a political party in a state in India means those who believe in Manusmriti. This word is used by them to incite the Dalits for their political gains and create hatred towards Brahmins, Rajputs and Vaishyas. Manusmriti has some 2700 shalokas describing how to live life and contains topics from Big Bang to duties and responsibilities of kings, about family, society etc. etc. It also describes the four varnas, how the varnas can be changed, how a Brahim becomes a Shudra or a Shudra becomes a Brahim. If some one is Manuvadi as pointed by politicians, he must be following what is mentioned in Manusmriti. Manusmriti is not against Dalits as mentioned by politicians. It is wrong interpretation which is creating problems. I have never come across the word Manuvada. You are giving a meaning to it yourself. Please give some citations and context where they are used. Sudhirkbhargava ( talk) 19:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
seriously, you may have created the Manuvada stub, but apparently you did it off the top of your head, and you did not bother to cite a single reference. Whatever happened to WP:CITE? I googled a bit and tried to find some context, but this is your article, not mine. By all means you should try and compile decent coverage on this. Once and after you have done that, of course there should be mention of it in the "Modern reception" section in this article, discussing the role of the Manusmriti in current day hardcore Hindu nationalism, but this is hardly going to warrant more than a brief paragraph, as it certainly isn't this article's main focus. It's, idk, if there was some freaky conservative party in the west who wanted to reinstitute medieval serfdom, this wouldn't be worth more than a footnote in the article on actual, historical, serfdom in the Middle Ages. The existence of kooks should never distract from the discussion of a serious historical topic ( WP:FRINGE). -- dab (𒁳) 13:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I think it should be limited with "ambedkar", as later he was buddhist, and not to mention the previous suggested "writer of constitution" which is obvious WP:FRINGE as constitution was borrowed from many other writings. Bladesmulti ( talk) 09:58, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Frawley and Hancock are absolutely *not* credible sources on history. Wjhonson ( talk) 20:51, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
comparative study of Manusmiti and Yagnavalkya smriti — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.187.130 ( talk) 11:27, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Human3015: If you study this edit, you will note that I had merely reformatted Neitzsche's paragraph from a list into text, per MOS. I did not delete anything there yet. I am yet to check sources on that to verify it, which I will do when I get to it. Have you verified the views on Manusmriti that are attributed to Friedrich Nietzsche in this article? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 13:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
article lacks NPOV and seems to be POV Pushing. You have deleted sourced matter
*deemed it "an incomparably spiritual and superior work" to the Christian Bible.
- observed that "the sun shines on the whole book" and attributed its ethical perspective to "the noble classes, the philosophers and warriors, [who] stand above the mass." [1]
- endorsed the political exclusion that Manu's system was considered to bring. [2]
.
I think you continue your editing, I will review it later, because you may have many things to add so first you complete your edits. -- Human3015 Send WikiLove 14:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
References
@ Human3015: Did I, are you sure? The above text was and is still there, only the format is different !! It now reads,
Check again. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:16, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
(ps): For reason why I converted the bulleted list into text, see this from MOS guideline. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
@Human3015: I suggest you or someone consolidate Nietzsche's views in one place in that section, along with adding recent scholarly secondary sources on Nietzsche's views on Manusmriti. The current section has two paragraphs in the middle and then the last paragraph. Add Gavin Flood's clarification that Nietzsche read Jacolliot's translation and commentary on Manusmriti, which has since been questioned. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:34, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Human3015: I will move the POV tag to a relevant section, based on my understanding of your concerns above. Feel free to add it to other sections as well, but with an explanation on this talk page, as to what your concern is with each section you POV-section tag. Your specific comments may help improve those sections. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 03:17, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
The overall tone of the article, with references from 18-19th century writers gives a biased, congratulatory appraisal of manusmrti without giving sufficient countenance to the criticisms it has sustained by contemporary authors over its contents.
Furthermore, the critical reasons as to why these authors so believed and, in particular, which part or parts of the text the particular appraisal refers to will provide readers with a more neutral article.
-- Avedeus ( talk) 13:50, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
@ Bo99: Blogs such as this by Taimur Khan are not acceptable or reliable sources (per WP:RS). If you wish to add Kaufman's comment, you must include the page number and a faithful summary from the source, not from a blog, for WP:V. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 07:41, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
'Ms Sarah Welch': regarding this diff page:
1. Explain why you claim that the statement of fact, that you deleted that Nietzsche quotation, is 'a personal attack' on you, as you stated in the Edit Summary for that deletion.
2. Give a citation to a formal Wikipedia source for your seeming claim, in that diff page's Edit Summary, that temporary hidden comments are not permitted to be placed in that useful centralized place (i.e. the article text). I have never come across such a source but would like to see one.
3. I'm ok with deleting essentially all the primary, Nietzsche quotations. But if you are going to include a supposed Nietzsche view to the effect that the Manu book is very positive, then we also need to include Nietzsche's view that the Manu book is very negative. Which do you prefer? Misconceptions about Nietzsche’s views on ethics are legion, as stated by Kaufmann in yet another quotation that you deleted, here.
4. In all of that, pls try: to take time; to read, think, and write with precision and clarity; and to bear in mind that you have been deleting the volunteered, hard work of various other people. Bo99 ( talk) 11:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
@Bo99: I am going to ignore your lecturing, as responding to it is unproductive and improper forum-y use of this talk page. Yes, if you present a specific reliable source, which hasn't been summarized, we will add it to the article.
Now, let us focus on the specific page number you give in your 2.6. You claim page 212 in Walter Kaufmann's Nietzsche: Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist book refers to Manu or Manusmriti. In the version I am looking at, it does not. The first line starts with "sheer perversions. John Stuart Mill...." and the last line ends with "less clearly defined sense of awe...". In the book I have, section II starts at page 216 and there too in the 5th paragraph I see no mention of Manu or Manusmriti. There is something on "law of Manu" on page 225, which I already summarized in the article, a while ago. May be we are looking at different editions? It would help if you can provide a quote of the few sentences where you see Manu or Manusmriti or "Law of Manu" from page 212. The Khan blog is not acceptable. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 17:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
@Bo99: The article already has a summary of "laws of Manu" related content that is on page 215, Section 3 of the Kaufmann's book From Shakespeare To Existentialism. You can't add WP:OR into this article after interpreting what is on other pages, sections, chapter of Kaufmann's book, and assuming it to be about Manusmriti. WK is discussing Kierkegaard, Kant, Christianity, Bradley, Aristotle and others in that chapter and Section 2. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 19:46, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welch writes "see talk page discussion from few weeks ago, this is not in the sources, undue OR", [1], but sources are reliable and they clearly state that the acclaimed quotes and insights the positive view about Manusmriti by the named authors. They are noted as admirer on the named sources, which part have you missed? Capitals00 ( talk) 04:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)