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Hi everyone, just a quick note to say I hope my contributions to this article are of use, and please write some comments! Any suggestions for improvements would be much appreciated. Thanks! Bigdaddy1204 23:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Hmmmm... I can see what you're saying about the 'what if' section, you may be right that it is going slightly beyond the necessary so I'm working on a solution to that at the moment. Thanks for not removing it outright, and if you do get any new ideas for further additions or improvements, I'd be glad to see them. Bigdaddy1204
P.S. In the last section, I put in a hyperlink to Myriokephalon, but was told that no page exists on it. Yet in an earlier chapter the same hyperlink does work and is connected to just such a page. How is this possible? I checked spelling but it's the same!
The Damietta image is supposed to depict the Seventh Crusade, I think. Damietta was attacked during one of the 12th-century invasions of Egypt, but that's not what the image represents. Adam Bishop 17:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I fully accept the above comment on the Damietta image.
However I noticed that the image of the Danube has been removed, but there is no explanation given for this. I find it disapointing that someone has taken it upon themselves to remove an image which I think contributes to the article in a positive way. Perhaps there is a perfectly reasonable reason for this, but currently I feel this action is vandalism, not a constructive contribution to the article. I am not claiming to be an amazingly brilliant writer, but I made contributions to this article which were by no means insubstantial, because I wanted it to be as good as possible. I can see that it may be argued that if I did not want people to edit articles that I have been working on, then I shouldn't have got involved in wikipedia. But I do not think that is the issue here. I do not have a problem with people making changes. I just don't like it when people delete things without at least having the decency to briefly comment why. It really doesn't take much effort to do so.
Complaints aside, I wish you all a happy Christmas, and once again I would be very grateful to anyone who has any ideas or suggestions for improving this article still further. Thanks!
Bigdaddy1204 00:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining what happened to the image. I think it came from wikipedia, though I can't be completely certain of this. All the other images that I added, such as the image of the nile, are from wikipedia, and I do remember making an effort to find appropriate images from within wikipedia, rather than from elsewhere, so as to avoid this kind of problem. Perhaps the image has just been 'cleared out' as unnecessary clutter? In any case, I will look for a new image to replace the old one. Bigdaddy1204 15:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The recent edits that have been made to this page have really improved it, and it seems to me that the article is getting very good indeed. Featured Article status, here we come! :-) Bigdaddy1204 11:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
lol no worries. At first I was a little shocked, but when I thought about it I could see that the changes probably are for the better because it made the article look more focused, more like a featured article. Interesting point about Constantine. I wanted to keep him in there somehow because I felt it was nice to have that context, that comparison, that 'setting of the scene, to really show what it meant when Manuel was crowned Emperor of Byzantium. Manuel wouldn't have thought the empire was founded by Constantine? I know the Romans had ruled Greece since about 200 BC, but who would Manuel have considered the founder of his civilisation? Bigdaddy1204 23:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
It's certainly a difficult question. Part of the problem is that it's not completely clear when the people of the eastern roman empire would have stopped being a conquered population and identified with the empire as their 'state', part of their identity. I suppose it might be possible to argue that this happened in the third century AD, when citizenship was granted to most of the inhabitants of the empire. But I think Constantine has a good claim to be the founder of Byzantine civilisation. Because of the central importance of Christianity within the empire throughout its history, since Constantine was the first christian emperor his reign would undoubtedly have been seen as a major landmark. Another aspect of Constantine is that he founded Constantinople as a capital of the empire. I cannot think of any other Emperor who did as much to establish Byzantium as Constantine, though I suppose some historians do choose to date the start of the Empire to the fall of the west in 476 AD, or even the reign of Justinian in 527 AD. Would they have dated back to Augustus? He was the first emperor, but he certainly wasn't Christian and he was a long way removed from the Byzantine world of 1143, when Manuel ascended the throne. Bigdaddy1204 17:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Heraclius, emperor from 610 to 641, is another possibility. He is said to have changed it from a Latin to Greek Empire. Kauffner 10:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There are several book citations that need cleaning up in the Sources section. Please could you provide details of the ISBN numbers for the sources cited. Also the formatting needs to be standardised, try http://www.qwikly.com/WikiBib.html#book_reference for standard book reference templates. Thanks
Bigdaddy1204 14:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
lol! Good idea, I did get a bit carried away moving things around yesterday... Incidentally, I emailed 'answers.com' yesterday about updating their page, which is based on ours but was quite out of date. Out of curiosity, I was just wondering, what is the relationship between wikipedia and other sites like answers.com? Bigdaddy1204 12:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I could really use a little help with the footnotes of this article. How do you get the numbers to appear properly instead of just the letter 'a'? Bigdaddy1204 16:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe some people are over using pictures. For instance: 1) Satellite image of Greece and surroundings - this is only a part of the Empire. 2) The Nile.
On the other hand there are very good pictures such as: 1) Fresco of Manuel I - a must 2) Map of the Byzantine Empire under Manuel. a must 3) This image by Gustave Dore shows the Turkish ambush in action - Very nice 4) This 11th-century Trebizond Gospel was commissioned by Manuel's ancestors. Nice 5) Arrival of the Second Crusade before Constantinople. Nice
The rest of the pictures are more or less OK. Othervise, I think is a good article. Cudos to Bigdaddy1204. -- Cigor 15:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
About the Egypt campaign - I don't think there is too much information here. The section itself is only a relatively short part of the article, and in Michael Angold's The Byzantine Empire 1025-1204 the coverage of the Egyptian campaign is quite extensive; certainly it is not 'barely mentioned'. I believe it is worth explaining the campaign because of the significant knock-on effects which I have pointed out, such as opening the door to the conquest of Egypt by Saladin, and also the misuse of precious Byzantine resources which were urgently needed in Asia Minor. As for the images, I believe illustration is very important to liven up what would otherwise be a boring looking section of text. More specifically, though, the Hagia Sophia is a highly relevant symbol of the religious issues of the time, and fits perfectly where it is. The map of Egypt has been removed and replaced. I suppose the image of the nile could be removed if you really want, but I feel it would be a pointless change that would only detract from the visual appeal of the article. Bigdaddy1204 18:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
You said "Satellite image of Greece and surroundings - this is only a part of the Empire." But if you look at the context again, you will notice that the section was only referring to Europe - thus, your objection to the picture on the ground that it is not the whole empire just does not stand up. Bigdaddy1204 19:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree.
Just a minor point: I think the upper (and lower) case in the word Empire/empire should be used in a more consistent way throughout the article. Tankred 20:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Which form do you think is best? Empire or empire? Bigdaddy1204 21:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I would personally prefer the "Empire". I checked some of the articles about Byzantine Emperors and the word "Empire" also seems to be more popular among other editors. However, the use is far from being consistent. As for other sources, both the Columbia Encyclopedia and the Chambers Biographical Dictionary use lower case. So I really do not know. Tankred 21:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I've had a quick look through the article, and can't find anything about this other than what's in the lead. Why was it "discomforting" to the spectators? Henry Flower 20:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The Byzantines had a high expectation of their emperors being dignified in public, it must have seemed rather shocking to see an emperor fighting as part of a public spactacle. Also for the more educated and those of a devout religious persuasion it may have reminded them of the various anathemas directed against gladiatorial combats by early Church Fathers (and the emperor Thodosius the Great - I think). Urselius 15:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Significant similarites between this article and the history given at http://www.roman-emperors.org/mannycom.htm. I realize it is possible for two people to come up with similar reactions to similar materials, but this looks like just a direct lift to me. -- Bill 23:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I strongly object to the above comment. First off, the sources used in this article are cited both in the bibliography and in the footnotes; the information used in this page comes from books, not from websites (which may not be a good source). The main sources used were:
Far from being some kind of cheap copy and paste exercise, this article was actually the subject of a complete re-write by myself (with editing help from others) over a period of several months, mostly between december 2005 and march 2006. My prose is entirely original. As for the website you cited, you should know that I did not even refer to it when I was writing the article. The only explanation I can find for your seeing 'similarities' is the fact that I had read pretty much every internet source on Manuel's reign already some time before I came to start work on wikipedia, so the facts I read will have come to form part of my general knowledge on the subject before the time of writing. In this way it is conceivable that certain facts will have been presented in a similar way to that in which I originally read them, although even if this is so I hardly see how it would somehow magically make the article a copy of someone else's work, particularly as I was actually basing my work on a range of entirely different source books.
I would even dispute the suggestion that my conclusions are the same, or even broadly similar. In fact, as far as I can see the other page offers a quite different take on the reign altogether. Even at a glance, I noticed as I scrolled through that the description of the battle of Myriokephalon presents it in an entirely different light to the description here. I am sure a closer look at the site would just confirm my point; however I see no need to waste my time defending myself against baseless accusations. I don't mean to sound rude, but given the amount of time, effort and hard work that went into this article, the suggestion that it was 'just a direct lift' makes me very angry. I suggest you check the facts more carefully before making these kind of comments; they may be liable to cause offense. Bigdaddy1204 14:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
From the other site: "The emperor sent Michael Palaeologus and John Ducas with an army and gold to effect the reconquest of Apulia (1155). These two generals sought to involve the German emperor Frederick Barbarossa in the venture, since he was south of the Alps, but he declined due to the fact that his army wished to return home. "
From the WP article: " Manuel sent Michael Palaeologus and John Ducas with Byzantine troops and large quantities of gold to invade Apulia (1155). The two generals were instructed to enlist the support of German emperor Frederick Barbarossa, since he was hostile to the Normans of Sicily and was south of the Alps at the time, but he declined because his demoralised army longed to get back north of the Alps as soon as possible."
Similar? I think so. Did you both read the same book and come to the same conclusion? Evidently.
I notice also that some passages from the Manuel article made their way directly to the Adrian/Hadrian IV article. I have no great problem with it, other than to say it is jarring to see a word for word copy like that. -- Bill 20:46, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I must check the history page for the article. If I recall rightly, the section you quoted is indeed not the same as what I originally wrote. I will check up on this immediately, to find out exactly what it was I originally wrote. Perhaps Adam is right... Bigdaddy1204 11:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have just checked the article history, and I have found the exact edit that I originally wrote for the article. It is the revision dated 'Revision as of 14:01, 27 October 2005'. Look it up for yourself - you will see the original text reads:
"In 1149 Manuel recovered Corfu and prepared to take the offensive against the Normans. With an army mainly composed of mercenary Italians he invaded Sicily and Apulia, and with the help of disaffected local barons including Count Robert of Loritello, achieved astonishingly rapid progress as the whole of southern italy rose up in rebellion against the Sicilian Crown."
It looks like Adam was right, and therefore I propose that the copywritten text be removed and replaced with the original version. I also noticed that one of the sources used by that website was 'M. Angold, The Byzantine Empire, 1025-1204: a political history, 2nd ed., London and New York, 1997.' This is the same book that I used when writing the Wikipedia article, so I am now going to check the actual section in the book that deals with this event, to see if both the website and the text in the article are actually derived from a section of text in the same book. Bigdaddy1204 12:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have found the section in the book. It reads: "...Michael Palaiologus and John Doukas, two high-ranking Byzantine agents, [who] had been sent to Italy to stir up trouble. They had orders to co-operate, if they could, with Frederick Barbarossa. He claimed...that he would have liked to have accepted their proposal for an expedition against Sicily, but his army was tired of campaigning, and so he headed for home."
I donot know if Bigdaddy copied or not. For me that is a trivial thing ... The most important is that a young man shows such a great interest for the Byzantine Empire, something that deserves a praise. Now, I donot think that in our times exists anybody who can contest the absolute originality. Originality is dead, since so many generations of people during the past centuries have almost written and alalysed everything. The most important thing our generation can do is to try to be as much creative and analytical as it can be. So our edits have to be as much thorough as they can be and we should endeavor to introduce our personal style and to leave our unique "footprints". As far as I am concerned Bigdaddy has already achieved that in this excellent article and all the rest is useless talking ...-- Yannismarou 19:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the following:
The link is to the "Center for Carbon Dioxode and Climate Change" based in Arizona. According to Sourcewatch [2] "The Center has links to the fossil fuel industry, both through personnel and funding" - it is not a reliable source, just one of many industry-funded groups out to discredit climate change. In the bigger picture, the issue of climate change and history is highly controversial, since this is a history article, it would be appropriate to use sources from historians, in particular historians who work at or publish through the mainstream historical bodies, such as Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, etc.. there is an lot of "junk science" out there. -- Stbalbach 18:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
More info about the source. [3].
-- Stbalbach 18:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
None of this really matters - discussion of such a topic is out of place on such a specific article. Take it somewhere else if you must include it. Adam Bishop 06:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an interesting topic, but I'd have to agree with adam that it doesn't really fit here. Still, if you want to connect climate change with the evolution of the Byzantine Empire, the best place to do so would be at the Byzantine Empire article. Bigdaddy1204 10:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Climate change is being debated today. To talk about Medieval Climate change is assumption based upon an almost proven assumption which isn't good enough. See Greenland and Iceland, some say the Vikings could colonize them cos at the time it was warmer. Tourskin 22:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Urselius! First of all, I apologize for the discussions in edit mode. I'm not so familiar with Wiki rules as you are. So, let's continue here. You say that using of the term Rus' is an Original research. Let's read the definition: The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. There are some reliable, published sources about Rus' 1. Franklin, Simon; Shepherd, Jonathan (1996). The Emergence of Rus: 750–1200. Longman History of Russia. Essex: Harlow. ISBN 0-582-490901. 2. Thompson, John M. (John Means) (2017-07-25). Russia : a historical introduction from Kievan Rus' to the present. Ward, Christopher J., 1972– (Eighth ed.). New York, NY. p. 20. ISBN 978-0-8133-4985-5. OCLC 987591571. 3. George Majeska, "Rus' and the Byzantine Empire", A Companion to Russian History (Abbott Gleason, ed., 2009), p.51. 4. Franklin, Simon (1992). "Greek in Kievan Rus'". Dumbarton Oaks Papers. 46: 69–81. doi:10.2307/1291640. JSTOR 1291640. 5. Colucci, Michele (1989). "The Image of Western Christianity in the Culture of Kievan Rus'". Harvard Ukrainian Studies. 12/13: 576–586. 6. Pritsak, Omeljan. The Origin of Rus'. Cambridge Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1991. And many others. I'm think that's enough? Or not?
However, another rule is more interesting "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views". A quote from Obolensky's work and the use of the term Russia in the title of the section grossly violates the principle of neutrality. Because the history of Kievan Rus is a common heritage of Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Finno-Ugric peoples. And not just Russians.
Therefore, please make edits in accordance with the rules and principles of Wiki. 46.173.137.97 ( talk) 21:44, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Summarize, I think 'Relations with the Kievan Rus' (Russia)' be most acceptable. Kievan Rus' - as more scientifically correct and (Russia) - as more understandable to the average reader. 46.173.137.97 ( talk) 22:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Manuel interfered in Russian affairs, with Galicia and Kiev acknowledging some form of dependence or vassalage at various times. He also diplomatically chased his cousin Andronicus around the Russian principalities when Andronicus was in bad odour.
Might be useful to include some mention of this. Urselius 14:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Urselius 09:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I've added a new section (referenced) entitled 'Manuel and Russia.'
Urselius
20:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I semi-reverted to "Transylvanian Alps" (with the linked "Southern Carpathians" in brackets afterward) so that it is obvious to the reader that the armies were crossing two separate mountain chains from different directions. The construct "Southern Carpathians" followed by "Carpathian Mountains" doesn't emphasise that these are mountain ranges running east-west and northwest-southeast (in a curve) respectively. Urselius 20:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I've unlinked Yaroslav, as Yaroslav Prince of Galicia was not the same person as Yaroslav II Grand Prince of Kiev. Urselius 19:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering if perhaps it should be mentioned at some point in the article that Manuel's only surviving written work is a lengthy defense of astrology? I realize that this hasn't been widely addressed at this point in the scholarship on Manuel, but it seems important enough to warrant a mention somewhere. -- Chris Brennan 04:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know Paparrigopoulos, but surely we can do better than Gibbon? I don't see how his use as a source can be defended. Adam Bishop ( talk) 22:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
This doesn't sound right - the fact is, Dorylaeum fell that year to the Turks - if the Turks can take a fortified and walled city in western Asia Minor, that says something about the Byzantine army - or whats left of it. Besides, Heraclea, Sozopolis and other cities fell to the Turks after Manuel's death - this article mentions nothing of these catastrophes and they were catastrophes because the Turks established principalities all around Nicaean cities in 1270 and onwards. Tourskin ( talk) 22:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Here's some information from Birkenmeier's book on the Komnenian army, which describes Myriokephalon:
"When the emperor left Dorylaion intact, the Turks raided to the Aegean coast, sacking Tralles, Antioch in Psidia, Louma and Pentacheir. An army under John Vatatzes in turn defeated this group of 24,000 Turks. So, although Manuel regarded his defeat as a second Manzikert, we should question whether it seriously affected the Komnenian strategic position in Asia Minor. Certainly the Turkish attempt to capitalize on Manuel's defeat ended in disaster."
Also this, from the same section:
"The imperial units at Myriokephalon fought well. The battle resulted in no wholesale collapse of the frontier. Although defeated, the Byzantine army was not destroyed, but appears within a year inflicting a defeat upon a force of 'picked Turks'." Bigdaddy1204 ( talk) 12:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I have a partial memory that when the van of Manuel's army moved back through the pass after the settlement with the sultan, they found that the faces and genitals of the dead had been mutilated. This was supposedly done so that the Byzantines would not be able to tell Christian from Muslim and therefore calculate how many casualties the Turks had suffered.
Does anyone have a source for this?
Urselius ( talk) 16:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, nice to know the memory works from time to time!
Urselius ( talk) 22:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I can't see any mention of Manuel's early, just after his accession, campaign against Konya. In a way it was much more successful than the Myriokephalon campaign as Manuel reached the city of Konya, though he could make no impression on its defences.
I think an important military expedition of this sort should be included somewhere, perhaps before the crusade section.
Urselius ( talk) 11:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The Empire of Manuel I Komnenos, 1143-1180 By Paul Magdalino, Cambridge University Press (1993) ISBN 0521526531 p. 42. (this page can be seen online as part of a preview).
I imagine it's in Angold, poss. Runciman (Crusades Vol II), certainly Cinnamus.
The campaign was in 1146, if memory serves.
Urselius ( talk) 09:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I have added a new (very short) sub-section to cover this campaign.
Urselius ( talk) 10:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the authorship of a book: Comnena, Anna (1969). "XLVIII-The First Crusade", The Alexiad translated by Edgar Robert Ashton Sewter. Penguin Classics (1969), from "Comnene" to "Comnena." It is the second version which is the one on the book's cover, and is recorded in bibliographies.
OK, fads in the transliteration of Medieval Greek names into the Roman alphabet have changed since the book was printed, but this doesn't change the spelling on the book itself. A bibliographic reference should reference the book in whatever the spelling of the book's title or authorship was at the time the book was printed. For example the book "Animadversions of Warre" of 1632 should not be labelled in a reference "Advice on Warfare" even though English usage and spelling has changed.
Urselius ( talk) 12:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Yannismarou, I find it baffling that you keep defending Gibbon. Sure he was a great historian for his time, and he's fun to read now, but there's no way he can be considered an impartial source for, well, anything, but especially anything Byzantine. Any quotes from or references to Gibbon seem embarrassingly out of place on what is supposed to be an example of Wikipedia's best articles. I just don't get it. What's your deal with Gibbon? Adam Bishop ( talk) 19:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Enough. Adam and str1977, I suggest you stop your small-minded attacks on Yannismarou. He has done more for this article than the rest of you put together. You should feel ashamed of yourselves, treating him in such a way. Have some respect. Now, I agree that Gibbon shouldn't be used as a source for Manuel's accession - that's fine. But his assessment of Manuel's reign is concise, well-written, and perfectly acceptable. I therefore object to any attempt to remove it. Gibbon may be used to assess Manuel. It is only as a source for specific events, e.g. names and dates, etc, that he is inappropriate. Bigdaddy1204 ( talk) 19:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
It is your choice to list as supporters of your views any accounts you want. But it is my duty to present to everybody here your "supporters", and do the research anybody invoking such accounts should have done. Read carefully:
Yannis, you can stick it. Unless you request checkuser there is no use for speculating about one or the other being the same. Also do not try to deflect from the fact that YOU are claiming OWNership. My point is not to defend these editors (they should have come back, they should have come to talk, they should have provided page numbers) but to show that this issue is not new, not restricted to Adam and me. Nobody can know the reasons for their staying away. Str1977 (talk) 12:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello there. Sorry for butting in like that but I just thought why not come in (uninvited though I may be) and try my bit to resolve this. I want to summarize the salient points of this discussion the way I understand them:
Conclusion:
P.S. Many thanks to Str1977 for his great job at fixing the outline of my comments with this . Dr.K. ( talk) 18:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Adam's rather bitter comments earlier in this thread are an excellent example of poor netiquette. There's no need to go into a childish sulk, just because you can't get your way. It is not becoming for 'adult' posters to behave in such a way. I too would expect much better from a poster with a history such as his.
Yannismarou, I commend you for keeping calm through these arguments. You have done well to argue the case for the box sensibly and prevent this turning into yet another flame war of the sort that frequently occurs on forums/online encyclopaedias, when people's anger easily gets the better of them...
Dr K, I salute you. Don't be concerned about being 'uninvited'; I think your contributions have helped the discussion move to a somewhat more positive place.
Tourskin, I understand what you mean. Gibbon was not exactly impartial, as you say. If you've read J.J. Norwich, you'd get the impression that he almost single-handedly condemned Byzantine history to obscurity and mockery for centuries. So I understand why you don't want to see him in this article. But Dr K has made a very, very good point. His quotation adds colour and life to the article. This is something I believe in strongly. There is a very powerful tendency in academic writing to make history as dull, dry and boring as possible. The end result is something highly accurate, factual, and utterly devoid of any life or interest whatsoever. Therefore, wherever possible, so long as it does not distort the truth, I am strongly in favour of making the language as interesting and lively as possible. It is difficult to do this without adding in any opinion at all, since, if you analyse it, it is often precisely this that makes the text enjoyable to read. The Gibbon box is a good way of doing this in a way that is historically acceptable. Therefore I am in favour of keeping the box. Bigdaddy1204 ( talk) 00:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm having a shitty week and I probably shouldn't be editing. I don't mean to take it out on you guys. I'll stay away until I am clearer in the head again. Adam Bishop ( talk) 01:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I was asked to comment here by Str1977. After reviewing the discussion and the Gibbon quotation under dispute, I have concluded that it is not useful to the article at all, but especially not in a box. The reason is simple: it just doesn't seem to say much. We learn what exactly about Manuel if we take this quote at face value? That he was laborious/slothful and hardy/effeminate? We learn that he was both/neither? And how could Gibbon really know much about a 12th-century figure's "character" anyhow? Conduct is readily apparent in every source, but character? If we are going to "spice things up" with Gibbon (and this is not a particularly enlivening quote, in my opinion), we could do better than this. Srnec ( talk) 23:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Dipa1965 ( talk) 18:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)His had been a long and brilliant reign, and the gains he were made were more evident than his failures. On the whole he maintained empire's prestige...he left the treasure depleted but not empty...If the army's performance was uneven, it had been so for a long time. If corruption was a problem, it was little worse than before. Byzantium remained slightly stronger than any of its neighbors
(Unindent) Anonymous, welcome to our discussion. It is obvious that your contribution is both eloquent and well considered. It is therefore my pleasure to reply to it. I quote from your statement above: As a neutral reader to the article, with the assumption that I knew nothing about this Manuel person before at all, a highlighted box in the "assessment" headline implies that it is the majority and/or modern view on the subject, something which simply is not correct at all. Assuming that a reader knows nothing about Manuel and also about Gibbon this statement is correct. But assuming they can click on Gibbon's name they'll discover that Gibbon is an 18th century historian and then they will experience an aha! moment, as in: "Aha! colourful eighteenth century description!" (This is of course in addition to the dead giveaway of the 18th century vocabulary, with words such as sloth, vicissitude, effeminate etc.). This can be informative as well as fun because it can open up a tiny window to a bygone era of scholarship and illuminate an old fashioned school of historiography, thus giving us a temporal perspective on the evolution of scholarship on the subject. Now for the reader who is clueless to linguistic cues and doesn't know who Gibbon is or can't click on his name to find out we also have simpler versions of Wikipedia or he can look up the equivalent to "Manuel for Dummies" in the nearest bookstore. Dr.K. ( talk) 15:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
In the primary sources, Urselius changed "Komnene" to "Comnena" (see his arguments in his edit summaries, I think he'll expose them again here). Urselius, I do not dispute what you say about your book's title! What I say is about the Wikipedia article which is Anna Komnene. Therefore, I reverted back to "Komnene" for two reasons:
Anyway, this is my opinion, but maybe my rationale is not convincing enough, and that is why, although this is a trivia issue, I brought the matter in the talk page for more input.-- Yannismarou ( talk) 13:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the authorship of a book: Comnena, Anna (1969). "XLVIII-The First Crusade", The Alexiad translated by Edgar Robert Ashton Sewter. Penguin Classics (1969), from "Comnene" to "Comnena." It is the second version which is the one on the book's cover, and is recorded in bibliographies.
OK, fads in the transliteration of Medieval Greek names into the Roman alphabet have changed since the book was printed, but this doesn't change the spelling on the book itself. A bibliographic reference should reference the book in whatever the spelling of the book's title or authorship was at the time the book was printed. For example the book "Animadversions of Warre" of 1632 should not be labelled in a reference "Advice on Warfare" even though English usage and spelling has changed.
Urselius ( talk) 12:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
In this very particular case, where the full title of the book is "The Alexiad of Anna Comnena" the 'mixed citation' works.
However, the general rule I stated still applies. For example the 1963 film (movie) "55 Days in Peking" remains just that, no one referencing the film would call it "55 Days in Beijing." The "Deeds of John and Manuel Comnenus" by Cinnamus, remains just that, it isn't transformed by later usage into "The Deeds of John and Manuel Komnenus" by "Kinnamos" UNTIL a new translation into English is made under that specific title, and even then anyone referencing the older book will have to use the older title.
I disagree totally with a bibliographic reference on a wikipedia page being first and foremost a link to another page, no it is first and foremost a guide to find a book. Anyone searching the Penguin back catalogue, or in second-hand bookshops, will be somewhat lead astray if they try to find a book published in 1969 authored by 'Anna Komnene.'
Like Mussolini, I am always right ;)
Urselius ( talk) 15:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The last sentence about the ransoms Manuel paid doesn't belong to this section. Dipa1965 ( talk) 06:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
This might be a featured article and I can only raise hat to people who helped to create it - alas, I belive that there is one thing that should be improved; the intro. It is too long for what it is; an intro. Intro should only include basics about something, and I belive that the intro as it is now has more than most basic information of Manuel I. -- Kurt Leyman ( talk) 15:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I have added a bit about the aftermath of Myriokephalon to the lead. Since this is a featured article, I am a bit nervous about the edits. hope it's an useful addition! Cliniic ( talk) 02:19, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
How come there is no section speaking about this emperor having been a clear-cut black man? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.26.152 ( talk) 16:44, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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"The Byzantines were too dispersed, and were surrounded."
This is the major description of the tactical situation at the Battle of Myriokephalon within the article. It is not useful for too reasons: (1) it is logically flawed, and (2) it is inaccurate. Sources suggest that the Seljuk army was smaller than the Byzantine, in the region of 20,000 to 25,000, with the Byzantine army at 25,000 to 40,000. In order for a dispersed 40,000 to be surrounded by 25,000 the latter would have to have been even more dispersed. The descriptions of the battle (mostly Choniates) make it clear that it was the narrowness of the pass that allowed the Seljuks to concentrate their attacks on certain divisions of the Byzantine army while the rest, in greater numbers, could not be deployed against them. The defeat of the Byzantines was in detail, 3 of the 6 divisions of the Byzantine army suffered negligible casualties, the troops immediately around the emperor suffered some casualties, while the remaining 2 divisions, and the baggage and siege train, were essentially destroyed. The idea that the entire Byzantine army was surrounded is just not accurate. Urselius ( talk) 10:47, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
The lead is bereft of dates other than his birth and death years. His reign is not even dated. This seems weird for a historical figure. Srnec ( talk) 15:58, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
When did Manuel conquer Bosnia, Dalmatia and Syrmia? This article (FA) suggests 1167, but the article Béla III of Hungary (GA) says 1165. Surtsicna ( talk) 13:37, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
The Gibbon box should be removed and be replaced by a comment from a more contemporary historian.Gibbons assessement is dated,as well as his book and his opinions arent taken seriously.There could be comment from a more contemporary historian.As it is it give a false impression on Manuel by a "historian" known for his biases against the Byzantine empire. 2A02:587:5513:2B00:9C9F:EB92:BA5A:6816 ( talk) 17:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
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Hi everyone, just a quick note to say I hope my contributions to this article are of use, and please write some comments! Any suggestions for improvements would be much appreciated. Thanks! Bigdaddy1204 23:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Hmmmm... I can see what you're saying about the 'what if' section, you may be right that it is going slightly beyond the necessary so I'm working on a solution to that at the moment. Thanks for not removing it outright, and if you do get any new ideas for further additions or improvements, I'd be glad to see them. Bigdaddy1204
P.S. In the last section, I put in a hyperlink to Myriokephalon, but was told that no page exists on it. Yet in an earlier chapter the same hyperlink does work and is connected to just such a page. How is this possible? I checked spelling but it's the same!
The Damietta image is supposed to depict the Seventh Crusade, I think. Damietta was attacked during one of the 12th-century invasions of Egypt, but that's not what the image represents. Adam Bishop 17:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I fully accept the above comment on the Damietta image.
However I noticed that the image of the Danube has been removed, but there is no explanation given for this. I find it disapointing that someone has taken it upon themselves to remove an image which I think contributes to the article in a positive way. Perhaps there is a perfectly reasonable reason for this, but currently I feel this action is vandalism, not a constructive contribution to the article. I am not claiming to be an amazingly brilliant writer, but I made contributions to this article which were by no means insubstantial, because I wanted it to be as good as possible. I can see that it may be argued that if I did not want people to edit articles that I have been working on, then I shouldn't have got involved in wikipedia. But I do not think that is the issue here. I do not have a problem with people making changes. I just don't like it when people delete things without at least having the decency to briefly comment why. It really doesn't take much effort to do so.
Complaints aside, I wish you all a happy Christmas, and once again I would be very grateful to anyone who has any ideas or suggestions for improving this article still further. Thanks!
Bigdaddy1204 00:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining what happened to the image. I think it came from wikipedia, though I can't be completely certain of this. All the other images that I added, such as the image of the nile, are from wikipedia, and I do remember making an effort to find appropriate images from within wikipedia, rather than from elsewhere, so as to avoid this kind of problem. Perhaps the image has just been 'cleared out' as unnecessary clutter? In any case, I will look for a new image to replace the old one. Bigdaddy1204 15:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The recent edits that have been made to this page have really improved it, and it seems to me that the article is getting very good indeed. Featured Article status, here we come! :-) Bigdaddy1204 11:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
lol no worries. At first I was a little shocked, but when I thought about it I could see that the changes probably are for the better because it made the article look more focused, more like a featured article. Interesting point about Constantine. I wanted to keep him in there somehow because I felt it was nice to have that context, that comparison, that 'setting of the scene, to really show what it meant when Manuel was crowned Emperor of Byzantium. Manuel wouldn't have thought the empire was founded by Constantine? I know the Romans had ruled Greece since about 200 BC, but who would Manuel have considered the founder of his civilisation? Bigdaddy1204 23:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
It's certainly a difficult question. Part of the problem is that it's not completely clear when the people of the eastern roman empire would have stopped being a conquered population and identified with the empire as their 'state', part of their identity. I suppose it might be possible to argue that this happened in the third century AD, when citizenship was granted to most of the inhabitants of the empire. But I think Constantine has a good claim to be the founder of Byzantine civilisation. Because of the central importance of Christianity within the empire throughout its history, since Constantine was the first christian emperor his reign would undoubtedly have been seen as a major landmark. Another aspect of Constantine is that he founded Constantinople as a capital of the empire. I cannot think of any other Emperor who did as much to establish Byzantium as Constantine, though I suppose some historians do choose to date the start of the Empire to the fall of the west in 476 AD, or even the reign of Justinian in 527 AD. Would they have dated back to Augustus? He was the first emperor, but he certainly wasn't Christian and he was a long way removed from the Byzantine world of 1143, when Manuel ascended the throne. Bigdaddy1204 17:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Heraclius, emperor from 610 to 641, is another possibility. He is said to have changed it from a Latin to Greek Empire. Kauffner 10:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There are several book citations that need cleaning up in the Sources section. Please could you provide details of the ISBN numbers for the sources cited. Also the formatting needs to be standardised, try http://www.qwikly.com/WikiBib.html#book_reference for standard book reference templates. Thanks
Bigdaddy1204 14:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
lol! Good idea, I did get a bit carried away moving things around yesterday... Incidentally, I emailed 'answers.com' yesterday about updating their page, which is based on ours but was quite out of date. Out of curiosity, I was just wondering, what is the relationship between wikipedia and other sites like answers.com? Bigdaddy1204 12:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I could really use a little help with the footnotes of this article. How do you get the numbers to appear properly instead of just the letter 'a'? Bigdaddy1204 16:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe some people are over using pictures. For instance: 1) Satellite image of Greece and surroundings - this is only a part of the Empire. 2) The Nile.
On the other hand there are very good pictures such as: 1) Fresco of Manuel I - a must 2) Map of the Byzantine Empire under Manuel. a must 3) This image by Gustave Dore shows the Turkish ambush in action - Very nice 4) This 11th-century Trebizond Gospel was commissioned by Manuel's ancestors. Nice 5) Arrival of the Second Crusade before Constantinople. Nice
The rest of the pictures are more or less OK. Othervise, I think is a good article. Cudos to Bigdaddy1204. -- Cigor 15:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
About the Egypt campaign - I don't think there is too much information here. The section itself is only a relatively short part of the article, and in Michael Angold's The Byzantine Empire 1025-1204 the coverage of the Egyptian campaign is quite extensive; certainly it is not 'barely mentioned'. I believe it is worth explaining the campaign because of the significant knock-on effects which I have pointed out, such as opening the door to the conquest of Egypt by Saladin, and also the misuse of precious Byzantine resources which were urgently needed in Asia Minor. As for the images, I believe illustration is very important to liven up what would otherwise be a boring looking section of text. More specifically, though, the Hagia Sophia is a highly relevant symbol of the religious issues of the time, and fits perfectly where it is. The map of Egypt has been removed and replaced. I suppose the image of the nile could be removed if you really want, but I feel it would be a pointless change that would only detract from the visual appeal of the article. Bigdaddy1204 18:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
You said "Satellite image of Greece and surroundings - this is only a part of the Empire." But if you look at the context again, you will notice that the section was only referring to Europe - thus, your objection to the picture on the ground that it is not the whole empire just does not stand up. Bigdaddy1204 19:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree.
Just a minor point: I think the upper (and lower) case in the word Empire/empire should be used in a more consistent way throughout the article. Tankred 20:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
Which form do you think is best? Empire or empire? Bigdaddy1204 21:27, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I would personally prefer the "Empire". I checked some of the articles about Byzantine Emperors and the word "Empire" also seems to be more popular among other editors. However, the use is far from being consistent. As for other sources, both the Columbia Encyclopedia and the Chambers Biographical Dictionary use lower case. So I really do not know. Tankred 21:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I've had a quick look through the article, and can't find anything about this other than what's in the lead. Why was it "discomforting" to the spectators? Henry Flower 20:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The Byzantines had a high expectation of their emperors being dignified in public, it must have seemed rather shocking to see an emperor fighting as part of a public spactacle. Also for the more educated and those of a devout religious persuasion it may have reminded them of the various anathemas directed against gladiatorial combats by early Church Fathers (and the emperor Thodosius the Great - I think). Urselius 15:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Significant similarites between this article and the history given at http://www.roman-emperors.org/mannycom.htm. I realize it is possible for two people to come up with similar reactions to similar materials, but this looks like just a direct lift to me. -- Bill 23:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I strongly object to the above comment. First off, the sources used in this article are cited both in the bibliography and in the footnotes; the information used in this page comes from books, not from websites (which may not be a good source). The main sources used were:
Far from being some kind of cheap copy and paste exercise, this article was actually the subject of a complete re-write by myself (with editing help from others) over a period of several months, mostly between december 2005 and march 2006. My prose is entirely original. As for the website you cited, you should know that I did not even refer to it when I was writing the article. The only explanation I can find for your seeing 'similarities' is the fact that I had read pretty much every internet source on Manuel's reign already some time before I came to start work on wikipedia, so the facts I read will have come to form part of my general knowledge on the subject before the time of writing. In this way it is conceivable that certain facts will have been presented in a similar way to that in which I originally read them, although even if this is so I hardly see how it would somehow magically make the article a copy of someone else's work, particularly as I was actually basing my work on a range of entirely different source books.
I would even dispute the suggestion that my conclusions are the same, or even broadly similar. In fact, as far as I can see the other page offers a quite different take on the reign altogether. Even at a glance, I noticed as I scrolled through that the description of the battle of Myriokephalon presents it in an entirely different light to the description here. I am sure a closer look at the site would just confirm my point; however I see no need to waste my time defending myself against baseless accusations. I don't mean to sound rude, but given the amount of time, effort and hard work that went into this article, the suggestion that it was 'just a direct lift' makes me very angry. I suggest you check the facts more carefully before making these kind of comments; they may be liable to cause offense. Bigdaddy1204 14:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
From the other site: "The emperor sent Michael Palaeologus and John Ducas with an army and gold to effect the reconquest of Apulia (1155). These two generals sought to involve the German emperor Frederick Barbarossa in the venture, since he was south of the Alps, but he declined due to the fact that his army wished to return home. "
From the WP article: " Manuel sent Michael Palaeologus and John Ducas with Byzantine troops and large quantities of gold to invade Apulia (1155). The two generals were instructed to enlist the support of German emperor Frederick Barbarossa, since he was hostile to the Normans of Sicily and was south of the Alps at the time, but he declined because his demoralised army longed to get back north of the Alps as soon as possible."
Similar? I think so. Did you both read the same book and come to the same conclusion? Evidently.
I notice also that some passages from the Manuel article made their way directly to the Adrian/Hadrian IV article. I have no great problem with it, other than to say it is jarring to see a word for word copy like that. -- Bill 20:46, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I must check the history page for the article. If I recall rightly, the section you quoted is indeed not the same as what I originally wrote. I will check up on this immediately, to find out exactly what it was I originally wrote. Perhaps Adam is right... Bigdaddy1204 11:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have just checked the article history, and I have found the exact edit that I originally wrote for the article. It is the revision dated 'Revision as of 14:01, 27 October 2005'. Look it up for yourself - you will see the original text reads:
"In 1149 Manuel recovered Corfu and prepared to take the offensive against the Normans. With an army mainly composed of mercenary Italians he invaded Sicily and Apulia, and with the help of disaffected local barons including Count Robert of Loritello, achieved astonishingly rapid progress as the whole of southern italy rose up in rebellion against the Sicilian Crown."
It looks like Adam was right, and therefore I propose that the copywritten text be removed and replaced with the original version. I also noticed that one of the sources used by that website was 'M. Angold, The Byzantine Empire, 1025-1204: a political history, 2nd ed., London and New York, 1997.' This is the same book that I used when writing the Wikipedia article, so I am now going to check the actual section in the book that deals with this event, to see if both the website and the text in the article are actually derived from a section of text in the same book. Bigdaddy1204 12:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have found the section in the book. It reads: "...Michael Palaiologus and John Doukas, two high-ranking Byzantine agents, [who] had been sent to Italy to stir up trouble. They had orders to co-operate, if they could, with Frederick Barbarossa. He claimed...that he would have liked to have accepted their proposal for an expedition against Sicily, but his army was tired of campaigning, and so he headed for home."
I donot know if Bigdaddy copied or not. For me that is a trivial thing ... The most important is that a young man shows such a great interest for the Byzantine Empire, something that deserves a praise. Now, I donot think that in our times exists anybody who can contest the absolute originality. Originality is dead, since so many generations of people during the past centuries have almost written and alalysed everything. The most important thing our generation can do is to try to be as much creative and analytical as it can be. So our edits have to be as much thorough as they can be and we should endeavor to introduce our personal style and to leave our unique "footprints". As far as I am concerned Bigdaddy has already achieved that in this excellent article and all the rest is useless talking ...-- Yannismarou 19:28, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the following:
The link is to the "Center for Carbon Dioxode and Climate Change" based in Arizona. According to Sourcewatch [2] "The Center has links to the fossil fuel industry, both through personnel and funding" - it is not a reliable source, just one of many industry-funded groups out to discredit climate change. In the bigger picture, the issue of climate change and history is highly controversial, since this is a history article, it would be appropriate to use sources from historians, in particular historians who work at or publish through the mainstream historical bodies, such as Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, etc.. there is an lot of "junk science" out there. -- Stbalbach 18:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
More info about the source. [3].
-- Stbalbach 18:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
None of this really matters - discussion of such a topic is out of place on such a specific article. Take it somewhere else if you must include it. Adam Bishop 06:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an interesting topic, but I'd have to agree with adam that it doesn't really fit here. Still, if you want to connect climate change with the evolution of the Byzantine Empire, the best place to do so would be at the Byzantine Empire article. Bigdaddy1204 10:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Climate change is being debated today. To talk about Medieval Climate change is assumption based upon an almost proven assumption which isn't good enough. See Greenland and Iceland, some say the Vikings could colonize them cos at the time it was warmer. Tourskin 22:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Urselius! First of all, I apologize for the discussions in edit mode. I'm not so familiar with Wiki rules as you are. So, let's continue here. You say that using of the term Rus' is an Original research. Let's read the definition: The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. There are some reliable, published sources about Rus' 1. Franklin, Simon; Shepherd, Jonathan (1996). The Emergence of Rus: 750–1200. Longman History of Russia. Essex: Harlow. ISBN 0-582-490901. 2. Thompson, John M. (John Means) (2017-07-25). Russia : a historical introduction from Kievan Rus' to the present. Ward, Christopher J., 1972– (Eighth ed.). New York, NY. p. 20. ISBN 978-0-8133-4985-5. OCLC 987591571. 3. George Majeska, "Rus' and the Byzantine Empire", A Companion to Russian History (Abbott Gleason, ed., 2009), p.51. 4. Franklin, Simon (1992). "Greek in Kievan Rus'". Dumbarton Oaks Papers. 46: 69–81. doi:10.2307/1291640. JSTOR 1291640. 5. Colucci, Michele (1989). "The Image of Western Christianity in the Culture of Kievan Rus'". Harvard Ukrainian Studies. 12/13: 576–586. 6. Pritsak, Omeljan. The Origin of Rus'. Cambridge Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1991. And many others. I'm think that's enough? Or not?
However, another rule is more interesting "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views". A quote from Obolensky's work and the use of the term Russia in the title of the section grossly violates the principle of neutrality. Because the history of Kievan Rus is a common heritage of Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Finno-Ugric peoples. And not just Russians.
Therefore, please make edits in accordance with the rules and principles of Wiki. 46.173.137.97 ( talk) 21:44, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Summarize, I think 'Relations with the Kievan Rus' (Russia)' be most acceptable. Kievan Rus' - as more scientifically correct and (Russia) - as more understandable to the average reader. 46.173.137.97 ( talk) 22:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
Manuel interfered in Russian affairs, with Galicia and Kiev acknowledging some form of dependence or vassalage at various times. He also diplomatically chased his cousin Andronicus around the Russian principalities when Andronicus was in bad odour.
Might be useful to include some mention of this. Urselius 14:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Urselius 09:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I've added a new section (referenced) entitled 'Manuel and Russia.'
Urselius
20:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I semi-reverted to "Transylvanian Alps" (with the linked "Southern Carpathians" in brackets afterward) so that it is obvious to the reader that the armies were crossing two separate mountain chains from different directions. The construct "Southern Carpathians" followed by "Carpathian Mountains" doesn't emphasise that these are mountain ranges running east-west and northwest-southeast (in a curve) respectively. Urselius 20:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I've unlinked Yaroslav, as Yaroslav Prince of Galicia was not the same person as Yaroslav II Grand Prince of Kiev. Urselius 19:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering if perhaps it should be mentioned at some point in the article that Manuel's only surviving written work is a lengthy defense of astrology? I realize that this hasn't been widely addressed at this point in the scholarship on Manuel, but it seems important enough to warrant a mention somewhere. -- Chris Brennan 04:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know Paparrigopoulos, but surely we can do better than Gibbon? I don't see how his use as a source can be defended. Adam Bishop ( talk) 22:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
This doesn't sound right - the fact is, Dorylaeum fell that year to the Turks - if the Turks can take a fortified and walled city in western Asia Minor, that says something about the Byzantine army - or whats left of it. Besides, Heraclea, Sozopolis and other cities fell to the Turks after Manuel's death - this article mentions nothing of these catastrophes and they were catastrophes because the Turks established principalities all around Nicaean cities in 1270 and onwards. Tourskin ( talk) 22:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Here's some information from Birkenmeier's book on the Komnenian army, which describes Myriokephalon:
"When the emperor left Dorylaion intact, the Turks raided to the Aegean coast, sacking Tralles, Antioch in Psidia, Louma and Pentacheir. An army under John Vatatzes in turn defeated this group of 24,000 Turks. So, although Manuel regarded his defeat as a second Manzikert, we should question whether it seriously affected the Komnenian strategic position in Asia Minor. Certainly the Turkish attempt to capitalize on Manuel's defeat ended in disaster."
Also this, from the same section:
"The imperial units at Myriokephalon fought well. The battle resulted in no wholesale collapse of the frontier. Although defeated, the Byzantine army was not destroyed, but appears within a year inflicting a defeat upon a force of 'picked Turks'." Bigdaddy1204 ( talk) 12:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I have a partial memory that when the van of Manuel's army moved back through the pass after the settlement with the sultan, they found that the faces and genitals of the dead had been mutilated. This was supposedly done so that the Byzantines would not be able to tell Christian from Muslim and therefore calculate how many casualties the Turks had suffered.
Does anyone have a source for this?
Urselius ( talk) 16:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, nice to know the memory works from time to time!
Urselius ( talk) 22:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I can't see any mention of Manuel's early, just after his accession, campaign against Konya. In a way it was much more successful than the Myriokephalon campaign as Manuel reached the city of Konya, though he could make no impression on its defences.
I think an important military expedition of this sort should be included somewhere, perhaps before the crusade section.
Urselius ( talk) 11:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The Empire of Manuel I Komnenos, 1143-1180 By Paul Magdalino, Cambridge University Press (1993) ISBN 0521526531 p. 42. (this page can be seen online as part of a preview).
I imagine it's in Angold, poss. Runciman (Crusades Vol II), certainly Cinnamus.
The campaign was in 1146, if memory serves.
Urselius ( talk) 09:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I have added a new (very short) sub-section to cover this campaign.
Urselius ( talk) 10:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the authorship of a book: Comnena, Anna (1969). "XLVIII-The First Crusade", The Alexiad translated by Edgar Robert Ashton Sewter. Penguin Classics (1969), from "Comnene" to "Comnena." It is the second version which is the one on the book's cover, and is recorded in bibliographies.
OK, fads in the transliteration of Medieval Greek names into the Roman alphabet have changed since the book was printed, but this doesn't change the spelling on the book itself. A bibliographic reference should reference the book in whatever the spelling of the book's title or authorship was at the time the book was printed. For example the book "Animadversions of Warre" of 1632 should not be labelled in a reference "Advice on Warfare" even though English usage and spelling has changed.
Urselius ( talk) 12:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Yannismarou, I find it baffling that you keep defending Gibbon. Sure he was a great historian for his time, and he's fun to read now, but there's no way he can be considered an impartial source for, well, anything, but especially anything Byzantine. Any quotes from or references to Gibbon seem embarrassingly out of place on what is supposed to be an example of Wikipedia's best articles. I just don't get it. What's your deal with Gibbon? Adam Bishop ( talk) 19:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Enough. Adam and str1977, I suggest you stop your small-minded attacks on Yannismarou. He has done more for this article than the rest of you put together. You should feel ashamed of yourselves, treating him in such a way. Have some respect. Now, I agree that Gibbon shouldn't be used as a source for Manuel's accession - that's fine. But his assessment of Manuel's reign is concise, well-written, and perfectly acceptable. I therefore object to any attempt to remove it. Gibbon may be used to assess Manuel. It is only as a source for specific events, e.g. names and dates, etc, that he is inappropriate. Bigdaddy1204 ( talk) 19:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
It is your choice to list as supporters of your views any accounts you want. But it is my duty to present to everybody here your "supporters", and do the research anybody invoking such accounts should have done. Read carefully:
Yannis, you can stick it. Unless you request checkuser there is no use for speculating about one or the other being the same. Also do not try to deflect from the fact that YOU are claiming OWNership. My point is not to defend these editors (they should have come back, they should have come to talk, they should have provided page numbers) but to show that this issue is not new, not restricted to Adam and me. Nobody can know the reasons for their staying away. Str1977 (talk) 12:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello there. Sorry for butting in like that but I just thought why not come in (uninvited though I may be) and try my bit to resolve this. I want to summarize the salient points of this discussion the way I understand them:
Conclusion:
P.S. Many thanks to Str1977 for his great job at fixing the outline of my comments with this . Dr.K. ( talk) 18:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Adam's rather bitter comments earlier in this thread are an excellent example of poor netiquette. There's no need to go into a childish sulk, just because you can't get your way. It is not becoming for 'adult' posters to behave in such a way. I too would expect much better from a poster with a history such as his.
Yannismarou, I commend you for keeping calm through these arguments. You have done well to argue the case for the box sensibly and prevent this turning into yet another flame war of the sort that frequently occurs on forums/online encyclopaedias, when people's anger easily gets the better of them...
Dr K, I salute you. Don't be concerned about being 'uninvited'; I think your contributions have helped the discussion move to a somewhat more positive place.
Tourskin, I understand what you mean. Gibbon was not exactly impartial, as you say. If you've read J.J. Norwich, you'd get the impression that he almost single-handedly condemned Byzantine history to obscurity and mockery for centuries. So I understand why you don't want to see him in this article. But Dr K has made a very, very good point. His quotation adds colour and life to the article. This is something I believe in strongly. There is a very powerful tendency in academic writing to make history as dull, dry and boring as possible. The end result is something highly accurate, factual, and utterly devoid of any life or interest whatsoever. Therefore, wherever possible, so long as it does not distort the truth, I am strongly in favour of making the language as interesting and lively as possible. It is difficult to do this without adding in any opinion at all, since, if you analyse it, it is often precisely this that makes the text enjoyable to read. The Gibbon box is a good way of doing this in a way that is historically acceptable. Therefore I am in favour of keeping the box. Bigdaddy1204 ( talk) 00:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm having a shitty week and I probably shouldn't be editing. I don't mean to take it out on you guys. I'll stay away until I am clearer in the head again. Adam Bishop ( talk) 01:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I was asked to comment here by Str1977. After reviewing the discussion and the Gibbon quotation under dispute, I have concluded that it is not useful to the article at all, but especially not in a box. The reason is simple: it just doesn't seem to say much. We learn what exactly about Manuel if we take this quote at face value? That he was laborious/slothful and hardy/effeminate? We learn that he was both/neither? And how could Gibbon really know much about a 12th-century figure's "character" anyhow? Conduct is readily apparent in every source, but character? If we are going to "spice things up" with Gibbon (and this is not a particularly enlivening quote, in my opinion), we could do better than this. Srnec ( talk) 23:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Dipa1965 ( talk) 18:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)His had been a long and brilliant reign, and the gains he were made were more evident than his failures. On the whole he maintained empire's prestige...he left the treasure depleted but not empty...If the army's performance was uneven, it had been so for a long time. If corruption was a problem, it was little worse than before. Byzantium remained slightly stronger than any of its neighbors
(Unindent) Anonymous, welcome to our discussion. It is obvious that your contribution is both eloquent and well considered. It is therefore my pleasure to reply to it. I quote from your statement above: As a neutral reader to the article, with the assumption that I knew nothing about this Manuel person before at all, a highlighted box in the "assessment" headline implies that it is the majority and/or modern view on the subject, something which simply is not correct at all. Assuming that a reader knows nothing about Manuel and also about Gibbon this statement is correct. But assuming they can click on Gibbon's name they'll discover that Gibbon is an 18th century historian and then they will experience an aha! moment, as in: "Aha! colourful eighteenth century description!" (This is of course in addition to the dead giveaway of the 18th century vocabulary, with words such as sloth, vicissitude, effeminate etc.). This can be informative as well as fun because it can open up a tiny window to a bygone era of scholarship and illuminate an old fashioned school of historiography, thus giving us a temporal perspective on the evolution of scholarship on the subject. Now for the reader who is clueless to linguistic cues and doesn't know who Gibbon is or can't click on his name to find out we also have simpler versions of Wikipedia or he can look up the equivalent to "Manuel for Dummies" in the nearest bookstore. Dr.K. ( talk) 15:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
In the primary sources, Urselius changed "Komnene" to "Comnena" (see his arguments in his edit summaries, I think he'll expose them again here). Urselius, I do not dispute what you say about your book's title! What I say is about the Wikipedia article which is Anna Komnene. Therefore, I reverted back to "Komnene" for two reasons:
Anyway, this is my opinion, but maybe my rationale is not convincing enough, and that is why, although this is a trivia issue, I brought the matter in the talk page for more input.-- Yannismarou ( talk) 13:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the authorship of a book: Comnena, Anna (1969). "XLVIII-The First Crusade", The Alexiad translated by Edgar Robert Ashton Sewter. Penguin Classics (1969), from "Comnene" to "Comnena." It is the second version which is the one on the book's cover, and is recorded in bibliographies.
OK, fads in the transliteration of Medieval Greek names into the Roman alphabet have changed since the book was printed, but this doesn't change the spelling on the book itself. A bibliographic reference should reference the book in whatever the spelling of the book's title or authorship was at the time the book was printed. For example the book "Animadversions of Warre" of 1632 should not be labelled in a reference "Advice on Warfare" even though English usage and spelling has changed.
Urselius ( talk) 12:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
In this very particular case, where the full title of the book is "The Alexiad of Anna Comnena" the 'mixed citation' works.
However, the general rule I stated still applies. For example the 1963 film (movie) "55 Days in Peking" remains just that, no one referencing the film would call it "55 Days in Beijing." The "Deeds of John and Manuel Comnenus" by Cinnamus, remains just that, it isn't transformed by later usage into "The Deeds of John and Manuel Komnenus" by "Kinnamos" UNTIL a new translation into English is made under that specific title, and even then anyone referencing the older book will have to use the older title.
I disagree totally with a bibliographic reference on a wikipedia page being first and foremost a link to another page, no it is first and foremost a guide to find a book. Anyone searching the Penguin back catalogue, or in second-hand bookshops, will be somewhat lead astray if they try to find a book published in 1969 authored by 'Anna Komnene.'
Like Mussolini, I am always right ;)
Urselius ( talk) 15:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The last sentence about the ransoms Manuel paid doesn't belong to this section. Dipa1965 ( talk) 06:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
This might be a featured article and I can only raise hat to people who helped to create it - alas, I belive that there is one thing that should be improved; the intro. It is too long for what it is; an intro. Intro should only include basics about something, and I belive that the intro as it is now has more than most basic information of Manuel I. -- Kurt Leyman ( talk) 15:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I have added a bit about the aftermath of Myriokephalon to the lead. Since this is a featured article, I am a bit nervous about the edits. hope it's an useful addition! Cliniic ( talk) 02:19, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
How come there is no section speaking about this emperor having been a clear-cut black man? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.26.152 ( talk) 16:44, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
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"The Byzantines were too dispersed, and were surrounded."
This is the major description of the tactical situation at the Battle of Myriokephalon within the article. It is not useful for too reasons: (1) it is logically flawed, and (2) it is inaccurate. Sources suggest that the Seljuk army was smaller than the Byzantine, in the region of 20,000 to 25,000, with the Byzantine army at 25,000 to 40,000. In order for a dispersed 40,000 to be surrounded by 25,000 the latter would have to have been even more dispersed. The descriptions of the battle (mostly Choniates) make it clear that it was the narrowness of the pass that allowed the Seljuks to concentrate their attacks on certain divisions of the Byzantine army while the rest, in greater numbers, could not be deployed against them. The defeat of the Byzantines was in detail, 3 of the 6 divisions of the Byzantine army suffered negligible casualties, the troops immediately around the emperor suffered some casualties, while the remaining 2 divisions, and the baggage and siege train, were essentially destroyed. The idea that the entire Byzantine army was surrounded is just not accurate. Urselius ( talk) 10:47, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
The lead is bereft of dates other than his birth and death years. His reign is not even dated. This seems weird for a historical figure. Srnec ( talk) 15:58, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
When did Manuel conquer Bosnia, Dalmatia and Syrmia? This article (FA) suggests 1167, but the article Béla III of Hungary (GA) says 1165. Surtsicna ( talk) 13:37, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
The Gibbon box should be removed and be replaced by a comment from a more contemporary historian.Gibbons assessement is dated,as well as his book and his opinions arent taken seriously.There could be comment from a more contemporary historian.As it is it give a false impression on Manuel by a "historian" known for his biases against the Byzantine empire. 2A02:587:5513:2B00:9C9F:EB92:BA5A:6816 ( talk) 17:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)