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Proposed removal of line - not supported by citations
I propose moving the following line in the etymology section:
The Sanskrit word mantra- (m.; also n. mantram in Tamil) consists of the root man- "to think" (also in manas "mind") and the suffix -tra, designating tools or instruments, hence a literal translation would be "instrument of thought".[15][16]
The etymology is incorrect and not supported by the sources.
Macdonell, Arthur A., A Sanskrit Grammar for Students § 182.1.b, p. 162(Oxford University Press, 3rd edition, 1927). - This page lists primary normal suffixes, the definition of tra is contained but nothing else. the definition of the man as provided in the source is elsewhere in the book but at no point does it state they are the constituent part of the word mantra.
Whitney, W.D., Sanskrit Grammar § 1185.c, p. 449(New York, 2003, ISBN 0-486-43136-3). The page listed explains a particular grammar rule. It contains nothing written in this statement. The book does not contain an etymology of the word mantra.
Both books are on Sanskrit grammar so would not contain any Tamil words.
I have already added to the page the correct Sanskrit etymology from the
Amarakosha and
Pānini. The one above sounds nice but unfortunately is not correct and is not supported by the sources.
If there are no objections I will remove in a couple of days.
@
Millandhouse33: Sorry, I don't like the idea of removing a sourced passage simply becuse an editor doesn't agree with it. M. Monier-Williams, whom you also quoted as a reference, lists mantra precisely under √man- (pp. 783–786). Your attempt to explain the etymology by quoting
Pāṇini instead is baffling, because Pāṇini's analysis, although often correct, sometimes does not find confirmation in later work. Here, Pāṇini's attempts to invent the root mantr- are, well, most likely an example of etymological reinterpretation rather than actual etymology.
Also, this is an English Wikipedia, so your prolific use of Sanskrit technical terms (dhatu, krit pratyaya, etc.) will be of virtually zero use to the reader. I decided to remove the passage as needing a serious rewrite. —
kashmīrīTALK15:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Kashmiri: Hi Kashmiri, thanks for engaging in the discussion. However, your categorisation of my actions is not correct. You have said. " I don't like the idea of removing a sourced passage simply because an editor doesn't agree with it." As stated in my original post directly above your writing, the text does not match the citation, it is not a sourced passage. Editors should remove statements that are not sourced. I went as far as to purchase the two books cited to check them before changing this.
The Amarakosa page number provided includes the etymology as I have written it, it is a valid and credible source. There is nothing baffling about this, it is in fact the standard required by Wikipedia.
Your actions was to remove a sourced statement and replace it with an unsourced one. This should not have been done.
Your comments about panini are your personal opinion. As you have stated wikipeida is not the place for personal opinions, we can only quote credible sources.
I am more than happy to engage in the spirit of cooperation and come to an agreement. However, that can only be done if you engage with the points I have made.
Quite clearly I'm obliged to reverse your action of removing a sourced statement and replacing it with an unsourced one. But I am more than happy to work with you to reach a resolution.
And I went as far as to check both Ashtadhyayi and Monier-Williams. The latter explicitly does not support your version as I mentioned above. As to Ashtadhyayi, I checked all occurrences of मन्त्र् and could not find any sutra that would be dealing with such a root. Care to give sutra number? By the way, गुप्त is also not there, contrary to your assertions, so your reference is incorrect.
See, even if you find that Panini indeed wrote so (which I doubt), the issue remains that Panini is not a reliable
secondary source on Sanskrit etymology. Ashtadhyayi is a work on
grammar and not on
etymology in modern sense. Yes, it can be mentioned that Panini links the word mantra with a root mantr- (provided you find it in a reliable source), however this explanation is not supported by modern linguists, whereas in Wikipedia we have to present the generally accepted view.
@
Kashmiri: Hello again Kashmiri, I'm a bit concerned that you have twice now reverted a page to replace a well-sourced statement with a completely unsourced one, but at least we seem to be in a discussion so perhaps some progress is possible.
The etymology I added to the page is from the Amarakosha it explicitly states mantr and ghan as the components of mantra. Page ref was provided. This is a valid source containing that etymology, therefore, it is perfectly letigmate to have it on the page. This was pointed out by me in both the comments above. The panini was used to explain ghan.
Your comments about Panini and the Ashtadhyayi are original research which we can not use.
Neither McDonald nor Whittney contain the man + tra etymology, nor does etymonline which you have just added. No other source that contains this has been presented. Therefore we can not use it.
If you have such a source please present it, otherwise kindly stop reverting.
I've left both versions in for now, and added the citations needed a tag in the hope that you will provide a source.
A few sources are cited here
[2]. Even though Gonda isn't perhaps an overly reliable source on Sanskrit linguistics, Agehananda Bharati was a highly respected Sanskrit scholar. If you don't really like the suffix part, I am happy to take it out, leaving only the man- part (although it will be hard to explain the literary meaning "instrument of thought" which is quite well sourced). Note that Monier-Williams expressly lists mantra under man-. In any case, any linkage of the word to (non-existing) mantr- has no place unless really well sourced. Amarakosha alone won't do it. —
kashmīrīTALK18:54, 4 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks, interesting article. not sure I would agree with them but it does seem reasonable grounds to include the etymology. This leaves us with two differing sanskrit etymologies. I suggest we include both until more sources present themselves that can settle the issue?
No objection to mentioning what Amarakosha says (with attribution), but it has to be kept less technical, i.e., should use English terminology for morphemes etc.. —
kashmīrīTALK07:31, 8 May 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Gotitbro: I'd reverted your edits regarding somechanges made by you in this article. But I think you were still diagreeing, so I've created this section. Mantras are not only found in Hinduism but in other indian religions such as Buddhism and also in Taoism and Shintoism, which requires their mention.Also their are many mantras in Pali found in Buddhist texts, like Luck Mantra and Vedabbha Mantra. You cannot just delete anything you find not good. Follow
WP:PRESERVE.
JaMongKut (
talk)
05:35, 15 February 2021 (UTC)reply
@
JaMongKut: Some IP had surreptitiously
added a religion (Hinduism) in the lead when it was not the case before. I have restored it as it was before (without the mention of any specific religions which begin in the next para) per
WP:STATUSQUO. And please don't incorrectly cite any guideline that you come across, PRESERVE is hardly applicable per
WP:BRD.
Gotitbro (
talk)
06:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Yoga, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Yoga,
Hatha yoga,
Yoga as exercise and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.YogaWikipedia:WikiProject YogaTemplate:WikiProject YogaYoga articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us
assess and improve articles to
good and
1.0 standards, or visit the
wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
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India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Hinduism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HinduismWikipedia:WikiProject HinduismTemplate:WikiProject HinduismHinduism articles
This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Buddhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with
Buddhism. If you would like to participate, please visit the
project page for more details on the projects.BuddhismWikipedia:WikiProject BuddhismTemplate:WikiProject BuddhismBuddhism articles
This article is part of WikiProject Jainism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with
Jainism. If you would like to participate, please visit the
project page for more details on the projects.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Altered States of Consciousness, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
altered states of consciousness on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Altered States of ConsciousnessWikipedia:WikiProject Altered States of ConsciousnessTemplate:WikiProject Altered States of ConsciousnessAltered States of Consciousness articles
Proposed removal of line - not supported by citations
I propose moving the following line in the etymology section:
The Sanskrit word mantra- (m.; also n. mantram in Tamil) consists of the root man- "to think" (also in manas "mind") and the suffix -tra, designating tools or instruments, hence a literal translation would be "instrument of thought".[15][16]
The etymology is incorrect and not supported by the sources.
Macdonell, Arthur A., A Sanskrit Grammar for Students § 182.1.b, p. 162(Oxford University Press, 3rd edition, 1927). - This page lists primary normal suffixes, the definition of tra is contained but nothing else. the definition of the man as provided in the source is elsewhere in the book but at no point does it state they are the constituent part of the word mantra.
Whitney, W.D., Sanskrit Grammar § 1185.c, p. 449(New York, 2003, ISBN 0-486-43136-3). The page listed explains a particular grammar rule. It contains nothing written in this statement. The book does not contain an etymology of the word mantra.
Both books are on Sanskrit grammar so would not contain any Tamil words.
I have already added to the page the correct Sanskrit etymology from the
Amarakosha and
Pānini. The one above sounds nice but unfortunately is not correct and is not supported by the sources.
If there are no objections I will remove in a couple of days.
@
Millandhouse33: Sorry, I don't like the idea of removing a sourced passage simply becuse an editor doesn't agree with it. M. Monier-Williams, whom you also quoted as a reference, lists mantra precisely under √man- (pp. 783–786). Your attempt to explain the etymology by quoting
Pāṇini instead is baffling, because Pāṇini's analysis, although often correct, sometimes does not find confirmation in later work. Here, Pāṇini's attempts to invent the root mantr- are, well, most likely an example of etymological reinterpretation rather than actual etymology.
Also, this is an English Wikipedia, so your prolific use of Sanskrit technical terms (dhatu, krit pratyaya, etc.) will be of virtually zero use to the reader. I decided to remove the passage as needing a serious rewrite. —
kashmīrīTALK15:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Kashmiri: Hi Kashmiri, thanks for engaging in the discussion. However, your categorisation of my actions is not correct. You have said. " I don't like the idea of removing a sourced passage simply because an editor doesn't agree with it." As stated in my original post directly above your writing, the text does not match the citation, it is not a sourced passage. Editors should remove statements that are not sourced. I went as far as to purchase the two books cited to check them before changing this.
The Amarakosa page number provided includes the etymology as I have written it, it is a valid and credible source. There is nothing baffling about this, it is in fact the standard required by Wikipedia.
Your actions was to remove a sourced statement and replace it with an unsourced one. This should not have been done.
Your comments about panini are your personal opinion. As you have stated wikipeida is not the place for personal opinions, we can only quote credible sources.
I am more than happy to engage in the spirit of cooperation and come to an agreement. However, that can only be done if you engage with the points I have made.
Quite clearly I'm obliged to reverse your action of removing a sourced statement and replacing it with an unsourced one. But I am more than happy to work with you to reach a resolution.
And I went as far as to check both Ashtadhyayi and Monier-Williams. The latter explicitly does not support your version as I mentioned above. As to Ashtadhyayi, I checked all occurrences of मन्त्र् and could not find any sutra that would be dealing with such a root. Care to give sutra number? By the way, गुप्त is also not there, contrary to your assertions, so your reference is incorrect.
See, even if you find that Panini indeed wrote so (which I doubt), the issue remains that Panini is not a reliable
secondary source on Sanskrit etymology. Ashtadhyayi is a work on
grammar and not on
etymology in modern sense. Yes, it can be mentioned that Panini links the word mantra with a root mantr- (provided you find it in a reliable source), however this explanation is not supported by modern linguists, whereas in Wikipedia we have to present the generally accepted view.
@
Kashmiri: Hello again Kashmiri, I'm a bit concerned that you have twice now reverted a page to replace a well-sourced statement with a completely unsourced one, but at least we seem to be in a discussion so perhaps some progress is possible.
The etymology I added to the page is from the Amarakosha it explicitly states mantr and ghan as the components of mantra. Page ref was provided. This is a valid source containing that etymology, therefore, it is perfectly letigmate to have it on the page. This was pointed out by me in both the comments above. The panini was used to explain ghan.
Your comments about Panini and the Ashtadhyayi are original research which we can not use.
Neither McDonald nor Whittney contain the man + tra etymology, nor does etymonline which you have just added. No other source that contains this has been presented. Therefore we can not use it.
If you have such a source please present it, otherwise kindly stop reverting.
I've left both versions in for now, and added the citations needed a tag in the hope that you will provide a source.
A few sources are cited here
[2]. Even though Gonda isn't perhaps an overly reliable source on Sanskrit linguistics, Agehananda Bharati was a highly respected Sanskrit scholar. If you don't really like the suffix part, I am happy to take it out, leaving only the man- part (although it will be hard to explain the literary meaning "instrument of thought" which is quite well sourced). Note that Monier-Williams expressly lists mantra under man-. In any case, any linkage of the word to (non-existing) mantr- has no place unless really well sourced. Amarakosha alone won't do it. —
kashmīrīTALK18:54, 4 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Thanks, interesting article. not sure I would agree with them but it does seem reasonable grounds to include the etymology. This leaves us with two differing sanskrit etymologies. I suggest we include both until more sources present themselves that can settle the issue?
No objection to mentioning what Amarakosha says (with attribution), but it has to be kept less technical, i.e., should use English terminology for morphemes etc.. —
kashmīrīTALK07:31, 8 May 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Gotitbro: I'd reverted your edits regarding somechanges made by you in this article. But I think you were still diagreeing, so I've created this section. Mantras are not only found in Hinduism but in other indian religions such as Buddhism and also in Taoism and Shintoism, which requires their mention.Also their are many mantras in Pali found in Buddhist texts, like Luck Mantra and Vedabbha Mantra. You cannot just delete anything you find not good. Follow
WP:PRESERVE.
JaMongKut (
talk)
05:35, 15 February 2021 (UTC)reply
@
JaMongKut: Some IP had surreptitiously
added a religion (Hinduism) in the lead when it was not the case before. I have restored it as it was before (without the mention of any specific religions which begin in the next para) per
WP:STATUSQUO. And please don't incorrectly cite any guideline that you come across, PRESERVE is hardly applicable per
WP:BRD.
Gotitbro (
talk)
06:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)reply