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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Ssial.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 03:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
There is an unsubstantiated claim that he (supposedly Mansa Muss) murdered his father. Is this accurate and if so, is there a reference? Aholver93 ( talk) 00:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
The Arabic name Musa means "Moses" and a Mandinka dictionary released by the Gambian Peace Corps says the Mandinka name Musaa means "Moses". As such, it seems reasonable to infer that Musa's name can be said to mean "Moses". However, no reliable source I am aware of actually makes the connection—for all I know, the similarity is coincidental. If anybody could find a source for the etymology of Musa's name, it would probably be worth including in the article. Ornithopsis ( talk) 09:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Not sure what "jeliw" in the article means. Is that a typo of "jealous people"? 92.6.237.83 ( talk) 07:29, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
I think it's important to mention Musa's wealth in the lede, as he is world-famous as the wealthiest person ever (regardless of whether that claim is accurate). If you google "wealthiest person ever", close to half the results are about Mansa Musa, and if you google "mansa musa", about half the results call him the wealthiest person ever. I think it would be remiss not to address the most famous thing about Musa in the lede of the article. However, as has been discussed above, there are not adequate sources to support the extraordinary claim that he was actually the wealthiest person ever—and indeed it's reasonable to assume that rulers of larger and more powerful empires (such as the Achaemenid, Roman, Mughal, and Chinese empires) could have commanded greater wealth, albeit not necessarily in the form of an equal quantity of pure gold. However, there is a lack of reliable sources, as far as I am aware, that provide a rigorous evaluation of his wealth. Following Wikipedia's policy on verifiability best as possible, what I put in the lede was He has often been called the wealthiest person in history, though his wealth is impossible to accurately quantify and it is difficult to meaningfully compare the wealth of historical figures.
This statement is backed up by some of the sources cited in the section on his wealth. However, the other day, an IP user removed these sentences from the lede. I would like to add those sentences back to the lede, but I am open for alternatives on how to address this situation.
Ornithopsis (
talk)
18:13, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Regarding two recent edit debates on this page: First, the year of his birth. The page currently says Musa was born c. 1280, but I'm not sure where that claim comes from. Gomez (2018) guesses that Musa would have been around 35 in 1324, based on the fact that he was presumably an adult when he acceded to the throne in 1312 (or 1307) and still appeared to be a young man in 1324. This is, however, only a guess. Unless someone can find a source supporting the 1280 date, we should probably do something different with the dates—I'm not sure if we can state the date of his birth any more precisely than "late 13th century". As far as Epic Rap Battles of History is concerned, poorly-sourced and indiscriminate "in popular culture" sections are precisely why such sections have a bad name—if somebody can find an adequate secondary source supporting the notability of the Epic Rap Battles of History episode, I'd be all for including it in the article, but on principle, only citing the video itself is bad practice. Ornithopsis ( talk) 16:49, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
None of the scholarly sources I have read call Mansa Musa "Musa Keita" at any point. "Musa Keita" turns up a handful of Google Scholar results, mostly of dubious veracity (several appear to be sourced from Wikipedia itself). As such, I am unconvinced that Musa is actually called "Musa Keita". Indeed, in general, reliable sources giving a clear sense of how the name Keita connects to the historical rulers of Mali seem rather sparse, though obviously they are regarded as Keitas in some sense. I have removed the references to Musa Keita from the article; I think we need a better source to back up use of the name. Ornithopsis ( talk) 18:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
All about mansa musa 94.174.44.127 ( talk) 19:16, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Given that the value of gold being described is around 9 trillion USDollars. 60,000 men in his entourage would have been more than the population of Cairo! The logistics of feeding and watering them (most of the journey being across desert) would have been slightly difficult. Sources quoted from the time were obviously exagerated for his agrandissement. Why can't Wikipedia editors recognise this instead of feeding us fairystories? Francis Hannaway ( talk) 16:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Whether or not there are sources, it can still be included that sources are not reliable from that era. It's like reporting on the Exodus as historical fact. Wikipedia has to be more than repeating bad history reports. Francis Hannaway ( talk) 19:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
"Musa Musa" instead of "Mansa Musa". Can't edit because locked. 2600:6C44:F7F:FD8F:D5DD:2CE7:3:5D54 ( talk) 03:31, 16 June 2022 (UTC)\
I have my doubts that Mansa Musa ever existed. There’s no artifacts of his empire and the earliest records are relatively recent Islamic “scholar” references, which brings me to my next point: I believe Mansa Musa’s story exists to try and one up the Jewish story of King Solomon. The details are similar: greatest wealth and greatest wisdom. There’s also no artifacts of Solomon’s empire. Shame on Smithsonian Mag for publishing their “article” on Mansa Musa. I wasn’t able to find any good support for any of the stuff they wrote. 173.79.150.89 ( talk) 14:42, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
I also have a very serious doubt about the existence of this man. But let's assume he did exist. The insurmountable issue as I see it (shocking no one pointed it out here) is how can he be judged the wealthiest man ever when no monetary system existed in 14th century Sub Saharan Africa? There were no minted coins, no manufacturing of any kind, no concept of metallurgy, no system of writing, hence, no ledgers and no way to record anything. The wheel didn't even exist in Sub Saharan Africa at that time, meaning any significant amount of trading would be impossible. And just what could a 'wealthy' person purchase in 14th century Sub Saharan Africa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:62F0:6F40:7822:9100:FDDF:4F57 ( talk) 23:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
102.88.83.32 ( talk) 18:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mansa Musa article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This
level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Ssial.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 03:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
There is an unsubstantiated claim that he (supposedly Mansa Muss) murdered his father. Is this accurate and if so, is there a reference? Aholver93 ( talk) 00:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
The Arabic name Musa means "Moses" and a Mandinka dictionary released by the Gambian Peace Corps says the Mandinka name Musaa means "Moses". As such, it seems reasonable to infer that Musa's name can be said to mean "Moses". However, no reliable source I am aware of actually makes the connection—for all I know, the similarity is coincidental. If anybody could find a source for the etymology of Musa's name, it would probably be worth including in the article. Ornithopsis ( talk) 09:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Not sure what "jeliw" in the article means. Is that a typo of "jealous people"? 92.6.237.83 ( talk) 07:29, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
I think it's important to mention Musa's wealth in the lede, as he is world-famous as the wealthiest person ever (regardless of whether that claim is accurate). If you google "wealthiest person ever", close to half the results are about Mansa Musa, and if you google "mansa musa", about half the results call him the wealthiest person ever. I think it would be remiss not to address the most famous thing about Musa in the lede of the article. However, as has been discussed above, there are not adequate sources to support the extraordinary claim that he was actually the wealthiest person ever—and indeed it's reasonable to assume that rulers of larger and more powerful empires (such as the Achaemenid, Roman, Mughal, and Chinese empires) could have commanded greater wealth, albeit not necessarily in the form of an equal quantity of pure gold. However, there is a lack of reliable sources, as far as I am aware, that provide a rigorous evaluation of his wealth. Following Wikipedia's policy on verifiability best as possible, what I put in the lede was He has often been called the wealthiest person in history, though his wealth is impossible to accurately quantify and it is difficult to meaningfully compare the wealth of historical figures.
This statement is backed up by some of the sources cited in the section on his wealth. However, the other day, an IP user removed these sentences from the lede. I would like to add those sentences back to the lede, but I am open for alternatives on how to address this situation.
Ornithopsis (
talk)
18:13, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Regarding two recent edit debates on this page: First, the year of his birth. The page currently says Musa was born c. 1280, but I'm not sure where that claim comes from. Gomez (2018) guesses that Musa would have been around 35 in 1324, based on the fact that he was presumably an adult when he acceded to the throne in 1312 (or 1307) and still appeared to be a young man in 1324. This is, however, only a guess. Unless someone can find a source supporting the 1280 date, we should probably do something different with the dates—I'm not sure if we can state the date of his birth any more precisely than "late 13th century". As far as Epic Rap Battles of History is concerned, poorly-sourced and indiscriminate "in popular culture" sections are precisely why such sections have a bad name—if somebody can find an adequate secondary source supporting the notability of the Epic Rap Battles of History episode, I'd be all for including it in the article, but on principle, only citing the video itself is bad practice. Ornithopsis ( talk) 16:49, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
None of the scholarly sources I have read call Mansa Musa "Musa Keita" at any point. "Musa Keita" turns up a handful of Google Scholar results, mostly of dubious veracity (several appear to be sourced from Wikipedia itself). As such, I am unconvinced that Musa is actually called "Musa Keita". Indeed, in general, reliable sources giving a clear sense of how the name Keita connects to the historical rulers of Mali seem rather sparse, though obviously they are regarded as Keitas in some sense. I have removed the references to Musa Keita from the article; I think we need a better source to back up use of the name. Ornithopsis ( talk) 18:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
All about mansa musa 94.174.44.127 ( talk) 19:16, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Given that the value of gold being described is around 9 trillion USDollars. 60,000 men in his entourage would have been more than the population of Cairo! The logistics of feeding and watering them (most of the journey being across desert) would have been slightly difficult. Sources quoted from the time were obviously exagerated for his agrandissement. Why can't Wikipedia editors recognise this instead of feeding us fairystories? Francis Hannaway ( talk) 16:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Whether or not there are sources, it can still be included that sources are not reliable from that era. It's like reporting on the Exodus as historical fact. Wikipedia has to be more than repeating bad history reports. Francis Hannaway ( talk) 19:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
"Musa Musa" instead of "Mansa Musa". Can't edit because locked. 2600:6C44:F7F:FD8F:D5DD:2CE7:3:5D54 ( talk) 03:31, 16 June 2022 (UTC)\
I have my doubts that Mansa Musa ever existed. There’s no artifacts of his empire and the earliest records are relatively recent Islamic “scholar” references, which brings me to my next point: I believe Mansa Musa’s story exists to try and one up the Jewish story of King Solomon. The details are similar: greatest wealth and greatest wisdom. There’s also no artifacts of Solomon’s empire. Shame on Smithsonian Mag for publishing their “article” on Mansa Musa. I wasn’t able to find any good support for any of the stuff they wrote. 173.79.150.89 ( talk) 14:42, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
I also have a very serious doubt about the existence of this man. But let's assume he did exist. The insurmountable issue as I see it (shocking no one pointed it out here) is how can he be judged the wealthiest man ever when no monetary system existed in 14th century Sub Saharan Africa? There were no minted coins, no manufacturing of any kind, no concept of metallurgy, no system of writing, hence, no ledgers and no way to record anything. The wheel didn't even exist in Sub Saharan Africa at that time, meaning any significant amount of trading would be impossible. And just what could a 'wealthy' person purchase in 14th century Sub Saharan Africa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:62F0:6F40:7822:9100:FDDF:4F57 ( talk) 23:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
102.88.83.32 ( talk) 18:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)