Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent. |
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
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autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
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See /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2015_December_29
This entry seems to be cleared for creation / re-creation based on newly-submitted material Horse Dancing ( talk) 15:12, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
All prospective editors to this page should familiarize themselves with the citations provided in the above-referenced DRV, documenting Manitonquat's position as tribal elder of the Wampanoag Nation.
He has never lived in Germany. He is not like Grey Owl an impersonator of non-Native American ancestry. Linking his article to Grey Owl, and alleging that he has ever lived "primarily in Germany" would seem to be deliberately inaccurate info.
These edits are alleged to have been inserted with flagrant disregard for accuracy, of a nature to be damaging the integrity of Wikipedia.
Please see previous allegations of vandalism to this page below.
This article seems to have been rather vandalized by elements hostile to the subject. Notably by proponents from a website called "newagefraud" (which apparently exists to villify all New Age / alternative philosophy, exponents, etc.) -NAFPS member speaking- No member of NAFPS has written on that page AFIK. NAFPS is a human rights group of Natives and supporters, well respected and including members of tribal gov'ts, many members are AIM or AIM affiliated. Imposters such as Talbot hate us for the same reason the KKK hates the NAACP. Found derogatory sentences violating neutral P.O.V. tone in the opening paragraph, in an incongruous manner. Claims that Manitonquat's Native American ancestry has ever been questioned are unsubstantiated, unsupported except by that website (and possibly some others of a similar colour: basically pursuing a religious crusade against non-Christian outlooks.) -Nonsense. NAFPS members includes Christians and former Newagers. It's well documented that Talbot is non-Native. Only associated with a dubious non recognized group of whites claiming to have ancestry.
Manitonquat has abundant references / testimonials as to the value of his work, its genuine grounding in Native American lore, and its value as a modern development thereof, from recognized authorities on Native American culture, as well as from tribal authorities. Horse Dancing ( talk) 16:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Wampanoag tribal representatives praising Manitonquat's work as an authentic representation of the culture are: Dr Helen Attaquin (former curator, Plimoth Plantation Museum, Wampanoag Indian Program, Plymouth, Massaschusetts); gkesedtanamoogk (Wampanoag elder & teacher in Native American Studies program, University of Maine; Chief Windsong Alden Blake, Assonet band, Wampanoag -Assonet are not recognized by actual Wampanoag. Horse Dancing ( talk) 19:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
-Should there not be mention of the group ZEGG has a long history of sexual abuse? This includes defending pedophilia as natural.
The "see also"s should be revised. Forrest Carter refers to a member of a KKK-Group. The article and the person have no connection to Manitonquat! Other persons are in opinion not adequate too. The only similarity is that they are Native American. -- Treveros ( talk) 18:45, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Removed Forrest Carter reference as suggested and added a link to Wikipedia article on Sun Bear, a similar Native American spiritual teacher and author, contemporary and associate of Manitonquat. Horse Dancing ( talk) 17:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
This page was re-created in accordance with the DRV (see /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2015_December_29 )
It was re-created along the lines of the Dec 18 edit, which was inclueded in said DRV, with request that any inaccuracies be pointed. There were no objections.
Another editor then made the following changes, which are difficult to understand. If anyone would care to explain how they could represent any improvement on the present expanded edit of today, please do. These edits were undone today: Deleted 1st paragraph references & infobox references to position as keeper of lore of Wampanoag nation. (Despite documentation shown in DRV)
Changed more accurate sentence "he has been known as a co-founder of the Rainbow Gatherings and elder of the Rainbow Family" to inaccurate "is involved with the Rainbow Gatherings and Rainbow Family." (no citation, no Talk p comment)
added false claim that he "lives primarily in Germany" (no citation, no Talk p comment)
changed sentence "...lecturing on the adaptation of Native American philosophy to modern problems of society, community, and relationships." to the more awkward & ungrammatical:
"...lecturing on the adaptation of the application of Native American philosophy..."
Retaining the section "The Circle Way" deleted details which are pertinent and informative. Deleted pertinent reference to "The Circle Way" basis in traditional Native American decision-making practices. (no citation, no Talk p comment) Deleted direct connection between The Circle Way and Manitonquat's work with prisoners. (no citation, no Talk p comment) Deleted clarification that The Circle Way is not only the title of a book, but now used to refer to said system of non-adversarial decision-making; and that said system now forms the main focus of Manitonquat's teaching and lecturing. (no citation, no Talk p comment)
More citataions are being added, and are available on the DRV, noted above. Please be sure that your edits are constructive and accurate. Horse Dancing ( talk) 16:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
With regard to the prison programes. There are only three prisons in New Hampshire. Mr. Talbot is not permitted in the New Hampshire Correctional Fascility for Women, Goffstown. There are three half-way houses that do not have his program so the reality is that the Mettanokit program is used only in the New Hampshire State Prison for Men, Concord and the Northern New Hampshire Correctional Fascility, Berlin. The pamphlet made available by the Bureau of Justice provides information that has been submitted by organizations themselves, they do not choose the organizations to promote. Whomever provides a submission is listed, it's no big deal and does not make the program special. The recidivism rate for the state of New Hampshire has remained at an approximate 43%. The stated 65-85% is a gross exaggeration http://www.nh.gov/nhdoc/divisions/publicinformation/documents/recidivism_study_2014.pdf If BOJ pamphlet allowed such a extremely inaccurate statement I'm not sure that I would trust any of the other information provided regarding the programme. Jeff Lyons, the PIO of the New Hampshire Department of Corrections feels that the 5-10% recidivism rate provided is extremely low and is in the process of looking to provide documentation to attest to a more accurate reflection which he feel is closer to 40%. Unless Mr. Talbot would like to once again be banned from the two facilities he occationally participates in then he may want to rethink the information provided or the individual who submitted it may wish to consider removing it. Ending Violent Crime, the Circle Way and Have You Lost Your Tribe? are all self published booklets that are produced at a copy shop not a publishing house. They are not 'books'. Indigenous girl ( talk) 00:31, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
I removed the link, as it points to the animal, not the person to whom I believe it's probably intended to point, the late Vincent LaDuke, father of Winona LaDuke, who went by the name "Sun Bear" and founded the "Sun Bear Medicine Society." I'd redirect it, but there's no article on him.
* Septegram* Talk* Contributions* 17:00, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
I deleted sourcing that goes to pages that are not in English, so it is not reasonable to assume en-wiki users can evaluate them. The false claim of Native identity is also in an non- WP:RS source. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 21:52, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
I've added a source https://web.archive.org/web/20110821014957/http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/49/hofford.html which I believe to be a reliable secondary source summarising what Manitonquat lays out in his works. I doubt it is a reliable source for the issue of Manitonquat's ethnicity, as per the discussion above. Stuartyeates ( talk) 10:26, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Excellent source. Thanks for explaining about secondary sources. And for being such a good example to us all, your reasonableness and good etiquette. Horse Dancing ( talk) 12:19, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there a reliable source for Story Stone Publishing docs being self published? Stuartyeates ( talk) 19:27, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Indigenous girl: posted this and I think most of us missed it: [5] I do think the discrepancy should be included, as it goes to credibility of the statements made by the article subject. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 00:45, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I just checked and, yes, the information Talbot submitted to the Bureau of Justice booklet, on p. 12, for his Prison program and personal residence is the same address given in all sources for "Story Stone Publishing". It is the retreat center he ran in New Hampshire, and where he lives when he's in the US (he also maintains a home in Germany, I think). Additionally, page 2 of the same booklet sources what Indigenous girl posted above, that everyone just submitted proposals and they are not official Bureau policies: "Points of view and opinions in this document are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the U.S. Department of Justice or affiliated agencies. The information is not to be taken as a warranty or representation for which JPI assumes legal responsibility. Any use of this information must be determined by the user to be in accordance with the policies of the user's organization and with applicable federal, state and tribal laws and regulations." [6]p.2. For confirmation that the number of prisons he reports is false, as well as the recidivism rate, I'm looking at the other documents now to see if there are usable quotes. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 02:07, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
An extraordinary 2nd AfD was created (following favorable DRV which decided on re-creation of this page, upon presentation of evidence establishing notability.) See full discussion here: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Manitonquat_%282nd_nomination%29
An excerpt therefrom: First, apologies for any irregularity in commencing the DRV. Probably I made the faut pas. I'm new to this process, have never been involved in a DRV / AfD discussion before. However belatedly, I'll try to better familiarize myself about this & mend any error that I can.
I'm posting a screenshot of my edit of Jan 7. Please note some of the citations included, which have since been deleted; (presumably by some zealous editors who here claim that I provided no citations.) I'd like to hear explained the deletion of these citations:
It would seem that any evidence which documents Manitonquat's tribal affiliation or notability is what some editors think should be deleted.
There is certainly some shrill emotional tone here: largely from those instigating a second AfD which has been acknowledged here as extraordinary and contrary to policy.
It seems appropriate to question what could possibly have motivated "bizarre" deletions of independent, authoritative sources, supporting notability; documenting that this author is an acknowledged authority on Native American culture & spirituality, a close associate of Wampanoag spiritual leadership, a prominent organizer of intentional communities, and of the Rainbow Gatherings since their inception.
It's an object lesson to see how the history of a man so well-known could be confused, obscured, or made to disappear in this context. Horse Dancing ( talk) 18:17, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
WP:GRAPES WP:SVT WP:REPEAT WP:WABBITSEASON User:CorbieVreccan has in recent days been warned by User:Horse Dancing for Vandalism, subtle and otherwise; also concerned in report to Administrator Notice Board:Biographies for vandalism to page in question, and instigating an edit war immediately following a DRV whose outcome was contrary to said user's vote. Also has been notified in /info/en/?search=User_talk:Thparkth that extraordinary emotion demonstrated in this debate suggests advisability that User:CorbieVreccan could, in this case, stand to back off & take a few deep breaths (if I may paraphrase.)
In seeking a balanced view, direct experience of the subject cannot be entirely silenced and disallowed, in favour of ignorant prejudice, or passionate hostility based on complete lack of direct experience. It is certainly significant that the person rushing to shout "COI" is the one who has been previously been named in vandalism allegation. WP:SVT I allege that this COI complaint by User:CorbieVreccan is retaliatory User:Sandstein User:JReferee User:Thparkth
As for COI, my acquaintance with the person who is the topic of the article in question by no means amounts to COI. He is neither family, client, employer, nor any other connection mentioned in COI policy /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest. I have no interest pecuniary or otherwise in the outcome of the discussion. The direct experience of his work which I detailed in the spirit of complete candour explicitly amounts to no more than what a hundred others also saw, in the course of his public appearances. My account also explicit that this occurred most recently in the 1990s, over twenty years ago.
As for CorbieV's use of the word "we": "as we've assumed..." Does the author of this COI claim to be a spokesperson for anyone other than himself? If so, who is this group he represents? As the saying goes "Don't 'we' me..." Horse Dancing ( talk) 12:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Can we stick to talking about the subject please? He-said-she-said is irrelevant when we need to be sticking to what the independent reliable sources say. Stuartyeates ( talk) 19:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there any point in mentioning that people trip on acid in his sweats at Rainbow Gatherings? If so is this a usable source http://wild-bohemian.com/sweat.htm Indigenous girl ( talk) 03:14, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
OK, I just checked the other source for the prison claims. He has gone into two prisons in NH (there are only two male prisons, as previously sourced), but the only other source besides McFadden,
Spontaneous Evolution, also includes the gross inaccuracies about recidivism rates and the "seven prisons". These are the exact same problems as with the pamphlet. Checking McFadden now. -
CorbieV
☊
☼
20:21, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
McFadden has no details about the prison work. This is the sole mention of it: "Manitonquat now works with prison inmates and travels the world to tell his stories." Per all of this, I think it has to be reduced to solely that. -
CorbieV
☊
☼
20:26, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Different take: https://www.bja.gov/Publications/InCustodyPrograms.pdf is actually a reliable source for statements that Manitonquat has been involved in custodial rehabilitation (because the decision to include the program was taken by he government agency) even if the text of the coverage in the source is unreliable. So maybe we say:
Thoughts? Stuartyeates ( talk) 21:03, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
WorldCat is a super-reliable source for the contents of the academic libraries in the Western world, so rebuilding the list based primarily on that (plus circle way, which is missing from WorldCat for some reason, but which is touched on in a LOT of other sources) I've got the following list. Probably needs further work. Note the change to 'works' from 'books' to avoid implying that these are all novel-length textual pieces. Feel free to add / tweak. Stuartyeates ( talk) 07:35, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Well done. Here, here! I don't think anyone can argue with WorldCat Horse Dancing ( talk) 12:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm wondering which language Manitonquat is suppose to derive from? It is not Wampanoag. Manito does not mean medicine, that is an entirely different word. Manito means spirit being. Also the gramatical stucture is wrong for an algonquin based language. Currently the article states Manitonquat "English translation Medicine Story". Right now there is no evidence that it translates to Medicine Story. I don't see how it could. I am taking out the phrase that it is a translation unless somebody can source it. Indigenous girl ( talk) 02:28, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
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Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent. |
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
|
See /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2015_December_29
This entry seems to be cleared for creation / re-creation based on newly-submitted material Horse Dancing ( talk) 15:12, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
All prospective editors to this page should familiarize themselves with the citations provided in the above-referenced DRV, documenting Manitonquat's position as tribal elder of the Wampanoag Nation.
He has never lived in Germany. He is not like Grey Owl an impersonator of non-Native American ancestry. Linking his article to Grey Owl, and alleging that he has ever lived "primarily in Germany" would seem to be deliberately inaccurate info.
These edits are alleged to have been inserted with flagrant disregard for accuracy, of a nature to be damaging the integrity of Wikipedia.
Please see previous allegations of vandalism to this page below.
This article seems to have been rather vandalized by elements hostile to the subject. Notably by proponents from a website called "newagefraud" (which apparently exists to villify all New Age / alternative philosophy, exponents, etc.) -NAFPS member speaking- No member of NAFPS has written on that page AFIK. NAFPS is a human rights group of Natives and supporters, well respected and including members of tribal gov'ts, many members are AIM or AIM affiliated. Imposters such as Talbot hate us for the same reason the KKK hates the NAACP. Found derogatory sentences violating neutral P.O.V. tone in the opening paragraph, in an incongruous manner. Claims that Manitonquat's Native American ancestry has ever been questioned are unsubstantiated, unsupported except by that website (and possibly some others of a similar colour: basically pursuing a religious crusade against non-Christian outlooks.) -Nonsense. NAFPS members includes Christians and former Newagers. It's well documented that Talbot is non-Native. Only associated with a dubious non recognized group of whites claiming to have ancestry.
Manitonquat has abundant references / testimonials as to the value of his work, its genuine grounding in Native American lore, and its value as a modern development thereof, from recognized authorities on Native American culture, as well as from tribal authorities. Horse Dancing ( talk) 16:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Wampanoag tribal representatives praising Manitonquat's work as an authentic representation of the culture are: Dr Helen Attaquin (former curator, Plimoth Plantation Museum, Wampanoag Indian Program, Plymouth, Massaschusetts); gkesedtanamoogk (Wampanoag elder & teacher in Native American Studies program, University of Maine; Chief Windsong Alden Blake, Assonet band, Wampanoag -Assonet are not recognized by actual Wampanoag. Horse Dancing ( talk) 19:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
-Should there not be mention of the group ZEGG has a long history of sexual abuse? This includes defending pedophilia as natural.
The "see also"s should be revised. Forrest Carter refers to a member of a KKK-Group. The article and the person have no connection to Manitonquat! Other persons are in opinion not adequate too. The only similarity is that they are Native American. -- Treveros ( talk) 18:45, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Removed Forrest Carter reference as suggested and added a link to Wikipedia article on Sun Bear, a similar Native American spiritual teacher and author, contemporary and associate of Manitonquat. Horse Dancing ( talk) 17:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
This page was re-created in accordance with the DRV (see /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2015_December_29 )
It was re-created along the lines of the Dec 18 edit, which was inclueded in said DRV, with request that any inaccuracies be pointed. There were no objections.
Another editor then made the following changes, which are difficult to understand. If anyone would care to explain how they could represent any improvement on the present expanded edit of today, please do. These edits were undone today: Deleted 1st paragraph references & infobox references to position as keeper of lore of Wampanoag nation. (Despite documentation shown in DRV)
Changed more accurate sentence "he has been known as a co-founder of the Rainbow Gatherings and elder of the Rainbow Family" to inaccurate "is involved with the Rainbow Gatherings and Rainbow Family." (no citation, no Talk p comment)
added false claim that he "lives primarily in Germany" (no citation, no Talk p comment)
changed sentence "...lecturing on the adaptation of Native American philosophy to modern problems of society, community, and relationships." to the more awkward & ungrammatical:
"...lecturing on the adaptation of the application of Native American philosophy..."
Retaining the section "The Circle Way" deleted details which are pertinent and informative. Deleted pertinent reference to "The Circle Way" basis in traditional Native American decision-making practices. (no citation, no Talk p comment) Deleted direct connection between The Circle Way and Manitonquat's work with prisoners. (no citation, no Talk p comment) Deleted clarification that The Circle Way is not only the title of a book, but now used to refer to said system of non-adversarial decision-making; and that said system now forms the main focus of Manitonquat's teaching and lecturing. (no citation, no Talk p comment)
More citataions are being added, and are available on the DRV, noted above. Please be sure that your edits are constructive and accurate. Horse Dancing ( talk) 16:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
With regard to the prison programes. There are only three prisons in New Hampshire. Mr. Talbot is not permitted in the New Hampshire Correctional Fascility for Women, Goffstown. There are three half-way houses that do not have his program so the reality is that the Mettanokit program is used only in the New Hampshire State Prison for Men, Concord and the Northern New Hampshire Correctional Fascility, Berlin. The pamphlet made available by the Bureau of Justice provides information that has been submitted by organizations themselves, they do not choose the organizations to promote. Whomever provides a submission is listed, it's no big deal and does not make the program special. The recidivism rate for the state of New Hampshire has remained at an approximate 43%. The stated 65-85% is a gross exaggeration http://www.nh.gov/nhdoc/divisions/publicinformation/documents/recidivism_study_2014.pdf If BOJ pamphlet allowed such a extremely inaccurate statement I'm not sure that I would trust any of the other information provided regarding the programme. Jeff Lyons, the PIO of the New Hampshire Department of Corrections feels that the 5-10% recidivism rate provided is extremely low and is in the process of looking to provide documentation to attest to a more accurate reflection which he feel is closer to 40%. Unless Mr. Talbot would like to once again be banned from the two facilities he occationally participates in then he may want to rethink the information provided or the individual who submitted it may wish to consider removing it. Ending Violent Crime, the Circle Way and Have You Lost Your Tribe? are all self published booklets that are produced at a copy shop not a publishing house. They are not 'books'. Indigenous girl ( talk) 00:31, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
I removed the link, as it points to the animal, not the person to whom I believe it's probably intended to point, the late Vincent LaDuke, father of Winona LaDuke, who went by the name "Sun Bear" and founded the "Sun Bear Medicine Society." I'd redirect it, but there's no article on him.
* Septegram* Talk* Contributions* 17:00, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
I deleted sourcing that goes to pages that are not in English, so it is not reasonable to assume en-wiki users can evaluate them. The false claim of Native identity is also in an non- WP:RS source. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 21:52, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
I've added a source https://web.archive.org/web/20110821014957/http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/49/hofford.html which I believe to be a reliable secondary source summarising what Manitonquat lays out in his works. I doubt it is a reliable source for the issue of Manitonquat's ethnicity, as per the discussion above. Stuartyeates ( talk) 10:26, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Excellent source. Thanks for explaining about secondary sources. And for being such a good example to us all, your reasonableness and good etiquette. Horse Dancing ( talk) 12:19, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there a reliable source for Story Stone Publishing docs being self published? Stuartyeates ( talk) 19:27, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Indigenous girl: posted this and I think most of us missed it: [5] I do think the discrepancy should be included, as it goes to credibility of the statements made by the article subject. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 00:45, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I just checked and, yes, the information Talbot submitted to the Bureau of Justice booklet, on p. 12, for his Prison program and personal residence is the same address given in all sources for "Story Stone Publishing". It is the retreat center he ran in New Hampshire, and where he lives when he's in the US (he also maintains a home in Germany, I think). Additionally, page 2 of the same booklet sources what Indigenous girl posted above, that everyone just submitted proposals and they are not official Bureau policies: "Points of view and opinions in this document are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the U.S. Department of Justice or affiliated agencies. The information is not to be taken as a warranty or representation for which JPI assumes legal responsibility. Any use of this information must be determined by the user to be in accordance with the policies of the user's organization and with applicable federal, state and tribal laws and regulations." [6]p.2. For confirmation that the number of prisons he reports is false, as well as the recidivism rate, I'm looking at the other documents now to see if there are usable quotes. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 02:07, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
An extraordinary 2nd AfD was created (following favorable DRV which decided on re-creation of this page, upon presentation of evidence establishing notability.) See full discussion here: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Manitonquat_%282nd_nomination%29
An excerpt therefrom: First, apologies for any irregularity in commencing the DRV. Probably I made the faut pas. I'm new to this process, have never been involved in a DRV / AfD discussion before. However belatedly, I'll try to better familiarize myself about this & mend any error that I can.
I'm posting a screenshot of my edit of Jan 7. Please note some of the citations included, which have since been deleted; (presumably by some zealous editors who here claim that I provided no citations.) I'd like to hear explained the deletion of these citations:
It would seem that any evidence which documents Manitonquat's tribal affiliation or notability is what some editors think should be deleted.
There is certainly some shrill emotional tone here: largely from those instigating a second AfD which has been acknowledged here as extraordinary and contrary to policy.
It seems appropriate to question what could possibly have motivated "bizarre" deletions of independent, authoritative sources, supporting notability; documenting that this author is an acknowledged authority on Native American culture & spirituality, a close associate of Wampanoag spiritual leadership, a prominent organizer of intentional communities, and of the Rainbow Gatherings since their inception.
It's an object lesson to see how the history of a man so well-known could be confused, obscured, or made to disappear in this context. Horse Dancing ( talk) 18:17, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
WP:GRAPES WP:SVT WP:REPEAT WP:WABBITSEASON User:CorbieVreccan has in recent days been warned by User:Horse Dancing for Vandalism, subtle and otherwise; also concerned in report to Administrator Notice Board:Biographies for vandalism to page in question, and instigating an edit war immediately following a DRV whose outcome was contrary to said user's vote. Also has been notified in /info/en/?search=User_talk:Thparkth that extraordinary emotion demonstrated in this debate suggests advisability that User:CorbieVreccan could, in this case, stand to back off & take a few deep breaths (if I may paraphrase.)
In seeking a balanced view, direct experience of the subject cannot be entirely silenced and disallowed, in favour of ignorant prejudice, or passionate hostility based on complete lack of direct experience. It is certainly significant that the person rushing to shout "COI" is the one who has been previously been named in vandalism allegation. WP:SVT I allege that this COI complaint by User:CorbieVreccan is retaliatory User:Sandstein User:JReferee User:Thparkth
As for COI, my acquaintance with the person who is the topic of the article in question by no means amounts to COI. He is neither family, client, employer, nor any other connection mentioned in COI policy /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest. I have no interest pecuniary or otherwise in the outcome of the discussion. The direct experience of his work which I detailed in the spirit of complete candour explicitly amounts to no more than what a hundred others also saw, in the course of his public appearances. My account also explicit that this occurred most recently in the 1990s, over twenty years ago.
As for CorbieV's use of the word "we": "as we've assumed..." Does the author of this COI claim to be a spokesperson for anyone other than himself? If so, who is this group he represents? As the saying goes "Don't 'we' me..." Horse Dancing ( talk) 12:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Can we stick to talking about the subject please? He-said-she-said is irrelevant when we need to be sticking to what the independent reliable sources say. Stuartyeates ( talk) 19:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Is there any point in mentioning that people trip on acid in his sweats at Rainbow Gatherings? If so is this a usable source http://wild-bohemian.com/sweat.htm Indigenous girl ( talk) 03:14, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
OK, I just checked the other source for the prison claims. He has gone into two prisons in NH (there are only two male prisons, as previously sourced), but the only other source besides McFadden,
Spontaneous Evolution, also includes the gross inaccuracies about recidivism rates and the "seven prisons". These are the exact same problems as with the pamphlet. Checking McFadden now. -
CorbieV
☊
☼
20:21, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
McFadden has no details about the prison work. This is the sole mention of it: "Manitonquat now works with prison inmates and travels the world to tell his stories." Per all of this, I think it has to be reduced to solely that. -
CorbieV
☊
☼
20:26, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Different take: https://www.bja.gov/Publications/InCustodyPrograms.pdf is actually a reliable source for statements that Manitonquat has been involved in custodial rehabilitation (because the decision to include the program was taken by he government agency) even if the text of the coverage in the source is unreliable. So maybe we say:
Thoughts? Stuartyeates ( talk) 21:03, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
WorldCat is a super-reliable source for the contents of the academic libraries in the Western world, so rebuilding the list based primarily on that (plus circle way, which is missing from WorldCat for some reason, but which is touched on in a LOT of other sources) I've got the following list. Probably needs further work. Note the change to 'works' from 'books' to avoid implying that these are all novel-length textual pieces. Feel free to add / tweak. Stuartyeates ( talk) 07:35, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Well done. Here, here! I don't think anyone can argue with WorldCat Horse Dancing ( talk) 12:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm wondering which language Manitonquat is suppose to derive from? It is not Wampanoag. Manito does not mean medicine, that is an entirely different word. Manito means spirit being. Also the gramatical stucture is wrong for an algonquin based language. Currently the article states Manitonquat "English translation Medicine Story". Right now there is no evidence that it translates to Medicine Story. I don't see how it could. I am taking out the phrase that it is a translation unless somebody can source it. Indigenous girl ( talk) 02:28, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
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Note that we need a reference, such as an obituary, before changing the article.-- Racklever ( talk) 09:42, 20 August 2018 (UTC)