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Manifest destiny was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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There is no mention of the racial and religious basis of Manifest Destiny. Additionally, the idea that Manifest Destiny was always contested and "never became a national priority" is insane. Writing the article this way makes it seem as though the writer is a white supremacist.
If Manifest Destiny was never a national priority, how do we have 50 states? What did Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson do and say about expansion?
Also, citing Frederick Merk is disgusting. Merk is nowhere near reputable, essentially denying the reality of the settlers who expanded into the West and instead blaming a "small minority". This is no surprise from someone trained under Frederick Jackson Turner, a historian who theorized the frontier thesis which tried to justify American settler colonialism.
The beginning of this article should include better references instead of this written by the old and disconnected Harvard "historians". Shikkato ( talk) 22:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi, @ Vanamonde93:. I wanted to inform you that I partially reverted your edit of the sockpuppet. Particularly this paragraph:
The United States has to-date not undertaken any truth commission nor built a memorial for the genocide of indigenous people. It does not acknowledge nor compensate for the historical violence against Native Americans that occurred during Manifest Destiny and territorial expansion to the west coast. American museums such as the Smithsonian Institution do not dedicate a section to the genocide. In 2013, the National Congress of American Indians passed a resolution to create a space for the National American Indian Holocaust Museum inside the Smithsonian but it has been ignored.
A lot of this is outdated. There's been several truth commissions — at least a state level — surrounding the treatment of indigeneous communites in the past five years. The ethnic cleansing of Native Americans also now plays a prominent role at the Smithsonian Institution. (Particularly since 2017) Just making sure you don't object to the removal.
Thanks! KlayCax ( talk) 10:01, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
I'm no expert on any of this, but I just took a look at the two talk page sections immediately above and that made me wonder how severe the NPOV problems in this article might be. More attention to WP:DUE might be part of a solution. Trying to get a little bit of a handle on this led me to information I had not previously been aware of -- in particular, this, which led me to this which quoted Kevin Gover, described there as the assistant Interior Department secretary who heads the Bureau of Indian Affairs as saying: "This agency participated in the ethnic cleansing that befell the Western tribes,[...] This agency set out to destroy all things Indian. The legacy of these misdeeds haunts us." It looks to me as if the Native Americans section of this article needs work to address this. The articles named there as See also articles probably also need a look. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 16:48, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
This is a WP:BRD discussion. WP:GTL says that the See also section of an article contains wikilinks to other articles relevant to the article topic and that the question of relevance is a matter of editorial judgement. Here, two editors have differing judgements about this case.
A wikilink to March to the West (Brazil) was added here to the See also section. I AGF-reverted the addition here questioning its relevance. My reversion was undone here with an assertion that the relevance is instantly obvious.
According to MOS:FIRST, the initial sentence of an article identifies the article subject in plain English. The initial sentence of this article reads, "Manifest destiny was a cultural belief in the 19th-century United States that American settlers were destined to expand across North America". The wikilink at issue is to an article about Brazil. Its initial sentence reads, "The March to the West ( Portuguese: Marcha para o Oeste) was a public policy engendered by the government of Getúlio Vargas during the Estado Novo (1937-1945) in order to develop and integrate the Center-West and North regions of Brazil, which until that moment had a low population density, quite different from what occurred in the Brazilian coastal region." The relevance of the linked article to the subject of this article is not instantly obvious to me. I propose that this link be removed from the See also section. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 20:11, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
WP:GTL says that links in the See also section should be relevant and limited to a reasonable number, that inclusion is a matter of editorial judgment, and (quoting) "Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent, when the meaning of the term may not be generally known, or when the term is ambiguous."
I opened this discussion after seeing the addition of a See also link to the Lebensraum article. The relevance of that article to this one is not at all clear to me after a look at it. Some other currently linked articles where relevance to this article is not obvious to me are
It seems to me that some or all of these could be candidates for removal and those not removed need clarification re relevance. Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
I disagree with these two edits
[1],
[2] and believe we should retain the image of the Battle Molino del Rey. The editor's edit summary says: "drop highly misleading illustration--this battle and its locality did not involve expansion (expansion = Texas, Arizona-New Mex. & California, which could use an illustration".
I don't see it as misleading. The
Mexican–American War was all about expansion and forcing Mexico to sell land they did not want to sell. By
attacking Mexico City, the U.S. was able to win the war and force the sale. If it were not for Manifest Destiny, all those lives might have been saved.
@
Rjensen: Please restore the image to the status quo before you made the change per
WP:BRD.--
David Tornheim (
talk) 08:32, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
The edit-warring on this article needs to stop. I have already reported one editor to WP:AN/I. I prefer not to discuss editor behavior here. I am only mentioning it here, because I am concerned that one of the editors is aware of the warnings. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 23:30, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Tollens: Thank you for restoring the important material in the WP:LEDE saying in a rather tame way how Manifest Destiny was used to justify the genocidal behavior of settlers to expel Native Americans from land the colonial settlers 'discovered'. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 00:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Doctrine of Discovery (also [3], [4]) play a more prominent role in the article? When I searched for the term "discover", it did not show up in the WP:LEDE at all and did not come in the text until ~2,000 words down in the article. There are countless hits when I searched for both "Manifest Destiny" and "Doctrine of Discovery" on Google scholar. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 00:21, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
I don't see any need to delete so much material in Filibusterism. Please explain why you want to remove so much material. It looks to me like this material has been in the article since at least 17:21, 20 March 2021. A significant portion was in the article as early as late 2006. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 02:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Manifest destiny article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
Manifest destiny was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on December 27, 2013, December 27, 2015, December 27, 2019, and December 27, 2021. | |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
There is no mention of the racial and religious basis of Manifest Destiny. Additionally, the idea that Manifest Destiny was always contested and "never became a national priority" is insane. Writing the article this way makes it seem as though the writer is a white supremacist.
If Manifest Destiny was never a national priority, how do we have 50 states? What did Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson do and say about expansion?
Also, citing Frederick Merk is disgusting. Merk is nowhere near reputable, essentially denying the reality of the settlers who expanded into the West and instead blaming a "small minority". This is no surprise from someone trained under Frederick Jackson Turner, a historian who theorized the frontier thesis which tried to justify American settler colonialism.
The beginning of this article should include better references instead of this written by the old and disconnected Harvard "historians". Shikkato ( talk) 22:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi, @ Vanamonde93:. I wanted to inform you that I partially reverted your edit of the sockpuppet. Particularly this paragraph:
The United States has to-date not undertaken any truth commission nor built a memorial for the genocide of indigenous people. It does not acknowledge nor compensate for the historical violence against Native Americans that occurred during Manifest Destiny and territorial expansion to the west coast. American museums such as the Smithsonian Institution do not dedicate a section to the genocide. In 2013, the National Congress of American Indians passed a resolution to create a space for the National American Indian Holocaust Museum inside the Smithsonian but it has been ignored.
A lot of this is outdated. There's been several truth commissions — at least a state level — surrounding the treatment of indigeneous communites in the past five years. The ethnic cleansing of Native Americans also now plays a prominent role at the Smithsonian Institution. (Particularly since 2017) Just making sure you don't object to the removal.
Thanks! KlayCax ( talk) 10:01, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
I'm no expert on any of this, but I just took a look at the two talk page sections immediately above and that made me wonder how severe the NPOV problems in this article might be. More attention to WP:DUE might be part of a solution. Trying to get a little bit of a handle on this led me to information I had not previously been aware of -- in particular, this, which led me to this which quoted Kevin Gover, described there as the assistant Interior Department secretary who heads the Bureau of Indian Affairs as saying: "This agency participated in the ethnic cleansing that befell the Western tribes,[...] This agency set out to destroy all things Indian. The legacy of these misdeeds haunts us." It looks to me as if the Native Americans section of this article needs work to address this. The articles named there as See also articles probably also need a look. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 16:48, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
This is a WP:BRD discussion. WP:GTL says that the See also section of an article contains wikilinks to other articles relevant to the article topic and that the question of relevance is a matter of editorial judgement. Here, two editors have differing judgements about this case.
A wikilink to March to the West (Brazil) was added here to the See also section. I AGF-reverted the addition here questioning its relevance. My reversion was undone here with an assertion that the relevance is instantly obvious.
According to MOS:FIRST, the initial sentence of an article identifies the article subject in plain English. The initial sentence of this article reads, "Manifest destiny was a cultural belief in the 19th-century United States that American settlers were destined to expand across North America". The wikilink at issue is to an article about Brazil. Its initial sentence reads, "The March to the West ( Portuguese: Marcha para o Oeste) was a public policy engendered by the government of Getúlio Vargas during the Estado Novo (1937-1945) in order to develop and integrate the Center-West and North regions of Brazil, which until that moment had a low population density, quite different from what occurred in the Brazilian coastal region." The relevance of the linked article to the subject of this article is not instantly obvious to me. I propose that this link be removed from the See also section. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 20:11, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
WP:GTL says that links in the See also section should be relevant and limited to a reasonable number, that inclusion is a matter of editorial judgment, and (quoting) "Editors should provide a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent, when the meaning of the term may not be generally known, or when the term is ambiguous."
I opened this discussion after seeing the addition of a See also link to the Lebensraum article. The relevance of that article to this one is not at all clear to me after a look at it. Some other currently linked articles where relevance to this article is not obvious to me are
It seems to me that some or all of these could be candidates for removal and those not removed need clarification re relevance. Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
I disagree with these two edits
[1],
[2] and believe we should retain the image of the Battle Molino del Rey. The editor's edit summary says: "drop highly misleading illustration--this battle and its locality did not involve expansion (expansion = Texas, Arizona-New Mex. & California, which could use an illustration".
I don't see it as misleading. The
Mexican–American War was all about expansion and forcing Mexico to sell land they did not want to sell. By
attacking Mexico City, the U.S. was able to win the war and force the sale. If it were not for Manifest Destiny, all those lives might have been saved.
@
Rjensen: Please restore the image to the status quo before you made the change per
WP:BRD.--
David Tornheim (
talk) 08:32, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
The edit-warring on this article needs to stop. I have already reported one editor to WP:AN/I. I prefer not to discuss editor behavior here. I am only mentioning it here, because I am concerned that one of the editors is aware of the warnings. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 23:30, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
@ Tollens: Thank you for restoring the important material in the WP:LEDE saying in a rather tame way how Manifest Destiny was used to justify the genocidal behavior of settlers to expel Native Americans from land the colonial settlers 'discovered'. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 00:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Doctrine of Discovery (also [3], [4]) play a more prominent role in the article? When I searched for the term "discover", it did not show up in the WP:LEDE at all and did not come in the text until ~2,000 words down in the article. There are countless hits when I searched for both "Manifest Destiny" and "Doctrine of Discovery" on Google scholar. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 00:21, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
I don't see any need to delete so much material in Filibusterism. Please explain why you want to remove so much material. It looks to me like this material has been in the article since at least 17:21, 20 March 2021. A significant portion was in the article as early as late 2006. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 02:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC)