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This is why I'm reverting WL's edit:
FRCP11 14:51, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
user:66.234.233.50, why did you remove my section on funding sources? Nbauman 01:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
That's a New York, NY IP address. Might be somebody from the Institute who doesn't want it to be public, or an MI supporter or something. Pure conjecture on my part I suppose. To answer your unstated question (judging by this talk page's history), I didn't pull it. I'd have no problem with funding sources being in the article. To me that's not a PoV issue, although I know it's been reverted by others in the past. Scharferimage 06:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, all. I am 66.234.233.50. Nothing personal. Mostly a sourcing issue. I think given the clear agenda of "sourcewatch", it becomes a PoV issue. At least in my book. I mean, geez, why not go all the way and use Media Matters as a source? Wikipedia sure presents some interesting challenges...
The article as written contains bad structure that leans towards POV, and contains uncited criticism, praise and an off-topic pot-shot.
The paragraph:
"According to People for the American Way, the Manhattan Institute has attacked minority-focused policies including affirmative action, civil rights initiatives, and immigrant support programs as obstacles to full social integration and to the benefits of the market system. The Institute heavily promotes school vouchers, saying that competition as the best way to improve public schools"
Its position near the beginning of the article, without subheading as "Criticism", in and of itself constitutes POV. Also, the entire critique is without citation.
Concerning the paragraphs:
"The Manhattan Instititute issued a report by Frank Lichtenberg..."
"Paul Krugman came to the opposite conclusion..."
Presenting this issue seems to be a setup to deliver the reference to Mr. Krugman's opposition, which is barely topical in that the cited article by Mr. Krugman does not contain a specific critique of the Manhattan Institute on behalf of this issue, or in general. Both these paragraphs would be more at home in an article about VA medical care issues.
The Manhattan Institute's position on issues would be better articulated in an "Issues & Positions" subheading, and refutations of the Manhattan Institute on the basis of its positions should be in a "Criticisms" section, and should contain only articles that make specific reference to the Manhattan Institute and/or its positions, not just any old article that happens to take an opposing view on an issue. Otherwise this article becomes a battle of the POVs about the issues addressed by the Manhattan Institute.
The paragraph containing the Guiliani quote is just plain sloppy-- the quote is lifted right off the marketing barkers of the City Journal's home page, where it is also unsourced. The NYTimes quote that ends this paragraph needs a citation.
Auger shell 21:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Agreed on all counts. I don't really have time to take on the renovation of this page at the moment. Are you going to be making major changes? Scharferimage 01:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy to give it a try within the next week to 10 days. Does this sound Ok? Auger shell 01:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've just started what will be a fairly major revision of this page. I know my edit isn't close to perfect, but I wanted to get started on this and start shaping this page. I've added sections on Law Enforcement, Welfare Reform, and Legal Policy. Let's get this page up to snuff over the next few days. Scharferimage 23:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Scharferimage, I saw a letter by Zycher on the Wall Street Journal editorial page, so I looked him up online. I thought this discussion of health policies by 2 of the Manattan Institute's scholars on health care, specifically Medicare Part D, was important and a good way to describe the Manhattan Institute's policies by showing what they do in a specific case, rather than applying subjective adjectives like "right wing" or "conservative". If they advocate free-market solutions, this is what that idea means in its specific application.
I've read a lot of Manhattan Institute articles and reports, and this is typical of what they do, in that it is a free-market approach, they sponsored research, they published editorials, etc. People who agree with this position should know the Manhattan Institute's reasons for supporting this position. People who disagree with them should also know how the Manhattan Institute disagrees with them.
Could you state exactly what your objection is to this? I would agree that we should expand it with more examples of other Manhattan Institute policies, but I don't understand why you want to delete it entirely. Nbauman 15:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The cited material doesn't even mention the Manhattan Institute. It thus violates WP:NOR and WP:SYN to include it. Wikipedia is not for your original research or analysis, even if you are correct. I have deleted it. If you have a Krugman piece explicitly critiquing the Manhattan Institute, you can include that, though then one wonders why Krugman is so prominently featured under WP:WEIGHT. Cri du canard ( talk) 10:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Good edit. Scharferimage ( talk) 02:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
CCI and CSLL seem to be mixed up. Polmandc ( talk) 06:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Articles should be based mainly on secondary sources. In recent days a lot of new material has been added to this article that is sourced, if at all, to the Institute's own websites. While primary sources of that type are allowed in limited cases, large chunks of the article shouldn't be based on them exclusively. Also, while I'm commenting here, external links should not be added to the text, and references follow punctuation. See WP:V, WP:EL, and WP:MOS. Will Beback talk 23:32, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. This entire article seems more like a puff piece than an encyclopedia article. Can the editors do something please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wogsinheat ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
I removed this material because none of the sources mention the Manhattan Institute, which is the subject of this article. What do these long quotes have to do with Manhattan? This seems like a pretty clear case of WP:COATRACK.
"Charter schools have been criticized by education and teaching groups based on a variety of reasons, including charges of trying to bust the historic teacher unions, diverting funds away from student populations in public schools in dire need of funds, and failing to maintain standards of learning, safety, and teaching environments. K12 Academics said the following
Critics feel that it is unacceptably difficult to enforce the provisions of the charter, which they say makes charter schools essentially accountable to no one. The basic concept of charter schools is that they exercise increased autonomy in return for this greater accountability. They are accountable for both academic results and fiscal practices to several groups, including the sponsor that grants them, the parents who choose them, and the public that funds them. Charter schools can theoretically be closed for failing to meet the terms set forth in their charter, but in practice, this can be difficult, divisive and controversial. One example was the 2003 revocation of the charter for a school called Urban Pioneer in the San Francisco Unified School District, which first came under scrutiny when two students died on a school wilderness outing. An auditor's report found that the school was in financial disarray and posted the lowest test scores of any school in the district except those serving entirely non-English-speakers. It was also accused of academic fraud, graduating students with far fewer than the required credits. [1]
In 2011, the documentary The Inconvenient Truth Behind Waiting for Superman was released by a coalition of public school teachers, parents, students, and community activists in New York City. On the website it is stated that
A group of New York City public school teachers and parents from the Grassroots Education Movement wrote and produced this documentary in response to Davis Guggenheim’s highly misleading film, Waiting for “Superman.” Guggenheim’s film would have audiences believe that free-market competition, standardized tests, destroying teacher unions, and above all, the proliferation of charter schools are just what this country needs to create great schools. The film, The Inconvenient Truth Behind Waiting for Superman highlights the real life experiences of public school parents and educators to show how these so-called reforms are actually hurting education. The film talks about the kinds of real reform–inside schools and in society as a whole–that we urgently need to genuinely transform education in this country. [2]
" Safehaven86 ( talk) 06:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
References
This article reads like a press release. It thoroughly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. It is full of quotations that praise the writings, but there is no mention of the fact that many of the positions advocated are controversial or have been thoroughly debunked. For example, the section describing "broken windows" policing states that crime in NYC declined when Bratton was police chief, implying that the "broken windows" policy works, but neglects to mention that crime rates all over the country decrease at that time, and that C. R. Sridhar compared cities that used "broken windows" policing to cities that used other policies and concluded that "broken windows" did not in fact reduce crime. Similarly, reading this articlem a reader has no idea that "supply side" economics is widely regarded as more a rhetorical device for justifying tax cuts for the wealthy than a theory that accurately describes our economy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttenraba ( talk • contribs) 07:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
I think calling something "Right Wing" rather than simply conservative has PoV issues. That aside, MI is generally known for concentrating on practical solutions to policy problems, rather than doctrinaire ideological positions. Calling MI "free-market" might be more accurate and fair. Scharferimage 04:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
MI isn't even conservative, it's capitalist, but I'm not going to win that fight so I'm leaving the lede alone. 67.173.10.34 ( talk) 07:09, 11 September 2012 (UTC)Larry Siegel
My impression from reading this article is that the Manhattan Institute is a right wing outfit and that the article is written so as to avoid stating this explicitly. My response: tell it like it is. Make things clear. --- Dagme ( talk) 04:58, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
As a think tank, a registered 501(c)3, I don't think the Manhattan Institute can legally take partisan positions. Such orgs are typically restricted from doing so, and may only advance policy proposals and white papers from a results-oriented (cost-benefit, etc.) position without regard to explicit political affiliation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.179.64.26 ( talk) 22:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
This question was discussed a few years ago (above) and since then the consensus has been to leave "right wing" out of the article. Moreover, the term has connotations that are negative/POV-laden. Since the mission of MI is presented in the article, readers are certainly free to use their own judgement when it comes to deciding (for themselves) if MI is "right-wing" or otherwise. – S. Rich ( talk) 04:51, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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@ Visite fortuitement prolongée: I noticed that you added an advert tag to the article, but did not indicate on the talk page what, specifically, you found to be advertorial about it. I have put some work into making this article very thorough and informative, and I have made an effort to try to reflect the tone of reliable sources on the subject. Is there some specific content that you feel is not supported, or something that you feel is missing from the article? If so, then we can work on making improvements, but if not, I would be inclined to remove the tag. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:40, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
This has a whole lot of stating the MIPR's view on things as if it's objective fact in wikipedia's voice. Ex: "With modern medicine on the cusp of a radical transformation due to breakthroughs in precision medicine, the FDA has struggled to adapt its regulations to new scientific advances." 198.135.124.75 ( talk) 19:22, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
This article reads like a press release. It thoroughly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. It is full of quotations that praise the writings, but there is no mention of the fact that many of the positions advocated are controversial or have been thoroughly debunked. For example, the section describing "broken windows" policing states that crime in NYC declined when Bratton was police chief, implying that the "broken windows" policy works, but neglects to mention that crime rates all over the country decrease at that time, and that C. R. Sridhar compared cities that used "broken windows" policing to cities that used other policies and concluded that "broken windows" did not in fact reduce crime. Similarly, reading this articlem a reader has no idea that "supply side" economics is widely regarded as more a rhetorical device for justifying tax cuts for the wealthy than a theory that accurately describes our economy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttenraba ( talk • contribs) 07:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is why I'm reverting WL's edit:
FRCP11 14:51, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
user:66.234.233.50, why did you remove my section on funding sources? Nbauman 01:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
That's a New York, NY IP address. Might be somebody from the Institute who doesn't want it to be public, or an MI supporter or something. Pure conjecture on my part I suppose. To answer your unstated question (judging by this talk page's history), I didn't pull it. I'd have no problem with funding sources being in the article. To me that's not a PoV issue, although I know it's been reverted by others in the past. Scharferimage 06:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, all. I am 66.234.233.50. Nothing personal. Mostly a sourcing issue. I think given the clear agenda of "sourcewatch", it becomes a PoV issue. At least in my book. I mean, geez, why not go all the way and use Media Matters as a source? Wikipedia sure presents some interesting challenges...
The article as written contains bad structure that leans towards POV, and contains uncited criticism, praise and an off-topic pot-shot.
The paragraph:
"According to People for the American Way, the Manhattan Institute has attacked minority-focused policies including affirmative action, civil rights initiatives, and immigrant support programs as obstacles to full social integration and to the benefits of the market system. The Institute heavily promotes school vouchers, saying that competition as the best way to improve public schools"
Its position near the beginning of the article, without subheading as "Criticism", in and of itself constitutes POV. Also, the entire critique is without citation.
Concerning the paragraphs:
"The Manhattan Instititute issued a report by Frank Lichtenberg..."
"Paul Krugman came to the opposite conclusion..."
Presenting this issue seems to be a setup to deliver the reference to Mr. Krugman's opposition, which is barely topical in that the cited article by Mr. Krugman does not contain a specific critique of the Manhattan Institute on behalf of this issue, or in general. Both these paragraphs would be more at home in an article about VA medical care issues.
The Manhattan Institute's position on issues would be better articulated in an "Issues & Positions" subheading, and refutations of the Manhattan Institute on the basis of its positions should be in a "Criticisms" section, and should contain only articles that make specific reference to the Manhattan Institute and/or its positions, not just any old article that happens to take an opposing view on an issue. Otherwise this article becomes a battle of the POVs about the issues addressed by the Manhattan Institute.
The paragraph containing the Guiliani quote is just plain sloppy-- the quote is lifted right off the marketing barkers of the City Journal's home page, where it is also unsourced. The NYTimes quote that ends this paragraph needs a citation.
Auger shell 21:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Agreed on all counts. I don't really have time to take on the renovation of this page at the moment. Are you going to be making major changes? Scharferimage 01:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy to give it a try within the next week to 10 days. Does this sound Ok? Auger shell 01:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've just started what will be a fairly major revision of this page. I know my edit isn't close to perfect, but I wanted to get started on this and start shaping this page. I've added sections on Law Enforcement, Welfare Reform, and Legal Policy. Let's get this page up to snuff over the next few days. Scharferimage 23:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Scharferimage, I saw a letter by Zycher on the Wall Street Journal editorial page, so I looked him up online. I thought this discussion of health policies by 2 of the Manattan Institute's scholars on health care, specifically Medicare Part D, was important and a good way to describe the Manhattan Institute's policies by showing what they do in a specific case, rather than applying subjective adjectives like "right wing" or "conservative". If they advocate free-market solutions, this is what that idea means in its specific application.
I've read a lot of Manhattan Institute articles and reports, and this is typical of what they do, in that it is a free-market approach, they sponsored research, they published editorials, etc. People who agree with this position should know the Manhattan Institute's reasons for supporting this position. People who disagree with them should also know how the Manhattan Institute disagrees with them.
Could you state exactly what your objection is to this? I would agree that we should expand it with more examples of other Manhattan Institute policies, but I don't understand why you want to delete it entirely. Nbauman 15:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The cited material doesn't even mention the Manhattan Institute. It thus violates WP:NOR and WP:SYN to include it. Wikipedia is not for your original research or analysis, even if you are correct. I have deleted it. If you have a Krugman piece explicitly critiquing the Manhattan Institute, you can include that, though then one wonders why Krugman is so prominently featured under WP:WEIGHT. Cri du canard ( talk) 10:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Good edit. Scharferimage ( talk) 02:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
CCI and CSLL seem to be mixed up. Polmandc ( talk) 06:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Articles should be based mainly on secondary sources. In recent days a lot of new material has been added to this article that is sourced, if at all, to the Institute's own websites. While primary sources of that type are allowed in limited cases, large chunks of the article shouldn't be based on them exclusively. Also, while I'm commenting here, external links should not be added to the text, and references follow punctuation. See WP:V, WP:EL, and WP:MOS. Will Beback talk 23:32, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. This entire article seems more like a puff piece than an encyclopedia article. Can the editors do something please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wogsinheat ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
I removed this material because none of the sources mention the Manhattan Institute, which is the subject of this article. What do these long quotes have to do with Manhattan? This seems like a pretty clear case of WP:COATRACK.
"Charter schools have been criticized by education and teaching groups based on a variety of reasons, including charges of trying to bust the historic teacher unions, diverting funds away from student populations in public schools in dire need of funds, and failing to maintain standards of learning, safety, and teaching environments. K12 Academics said the following
Critics feel that it is unacceptably difficult to enforce the provisions of the charter, which they say makes charter schools essentially accountable to no one. The basic concept of charter schools is that they exercise increased autonomy in return for this greater accountability. They are accountable for both academic results and fiscal practices to several groups, including the sponsor that grants them, the parents who choose them, and the public that funds them. Charter schools can theoretically be closed for failing to meet the terms set forth in their charter, but in practice, this can be difficult, divisive and controversial. One example was the 2003 revocation of the charter for a school called Urban Pioneer in the San Francisco Unified School District, which first came under scrutiny when two students died on a school wilderness outing. An auditor's report found that the school was in financial disarray and posted the lowest test scores of any school in the district except those serving entirely non-English-speakers. It was also accused of academic fraud, graduating students with far fewer than the required credits. [1]
In 2011, the documentary The Inconvenient Truth Behind Waiting for Superman was released by a coalition of public school teachers, parents, students, and community activists in New York City. On the website it is stated that
A group of New York City public school teachers and parents from the Grassroots Education Movement wrote and produced this documentary in response to Davis Guggenheim’s highly misleading film, Waiting for “Superman.” Guggenheim’s film would have audiences believe that free-market competition, standardized tests, destroying teacher unions, and above all, the proliferation of charter schools are just what this country needs to create great schools. The film, The Inconvenient Truth Behind Waiting for Superman highlights the real life experiences of public school parents and educators to show how these so-called reforms are actually hurting education. The film talks about the kinds of real reform–inside schools and in society as a whole–that we urgently need to genuinely transform education in this country. [2]
" Safehaven86 ( talk) 06:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
References
This article reads like a press release. It thoroughly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. It is full of quotations that praise the writings, but there is no mention of the fact that many of the positions advocated are controversial or have been thoroughly debunked. For example, the section describing "broken windows" policing states that crime in NYC declined when Bratton was police chief, implying that the "broken windows" policy works, but neglects to mention that crime rates all over the country decrease at that time, and that C. R. Sridhar compared cities that used "broken windows" policing to cities that used other policies and concluded that "broken windows" did not in fact reduce crime. Similarly, reading this articlem a reader has no idea that "supply side" economics is widely regarded as more a rhetorical device for justifying tax cuts for the wealthy than a theory that accurately describes our economy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttenraba ( talk • contribs) 07:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
I think calling something "Right Wing" rather than simply conservative has PoV issues. That aside, MI is generally known for concentrating on practical solutions to policy problems, rather than doctrinaire ideological positions. Calling MI "free-market" might be more accurate and fair. Scharferimage 04:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
MI isn't even conservative, it's capitalist, but I'm not going to win that fight so I'm leaving the lede alone. 67.173.10.34 ( talk) 07:09, 11 September 2012 (UTC)Larry Siegel
My impression from reading this article is that the Manhattan Institute is a right wing outfit and that the article is written so as to avoid stating this explicitly. My response: tell it like it is. Make things clear. --- Dagme ( talk) 04:58, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
As a think tank, a registered 501(c)3, I don't think the Manhattan Institute can legally take partisan positions. Such orgs are typically restricted from doing so, and may only advance policy proposals and white papers from a results-oriented (cost-benefit, etc.) position without regard to explicit political affiliation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.179.64.26 ( talk) 22:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
This question was discussed a few years ago (above) and since then the consensus has been to leave "right wing" out of the article. Moreover, the term has connotations that are negative/POV-laden. Since the mission of MI is presented in the article, readers are certainly free to use their own judgement when it comes to deciding (for themselves) if MI is "right-wing" or otherwise. – S. Rich ( talk) 04:51, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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@ Visite fortuitement prolongée: I noticed that you added an advert tag to the article, but did not indicate on the talk page what, specifically, you found to be advertorial about it. I have put some work into making this article very thorough and informative, and I have made an effort to try to reflect the tone of reliable sources on the subject. Is there some specific content that you feel is not supported, or something that you feel is missing from the article? If so, then we can work on making improvements, but if not, I would be inclined to remove the tag. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:40, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
This has a whole lot of stating the MIPR's view on things as if it's objective fact in wikipedia's voice. Ex: "With modern medicine on the cusp of a radical transformation due to breakthroughs in precision medicine, the FDA has struggled to adapt its regulations to new scientific advances." 198.135.124.75 ( talk) 19:22, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
This article reads like a press release. It thoroughly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. It is full of quotations that praise the writings, but there is no mention of the fact that many of the positions advocated are controversial or have been thoroughly debunked. For example, the section describing "broken windows" policing states that crime in NYC declined when Bratton was police chief, implying that the "broken windows" policy works, but neglects to mention that crime rates all over the country decrease at that time, and that C. R. Sridhar compared cities that used "broken windows" policing to cities that used other policies and concluded that "broken windows" did not in fact reduce crime. Similarly, reading this articlem a reader has no idea that "supply side" economics is widely regarded as more a rhetorical device for justifying tax cuts for the wealthy than a theory that accurately describes our economy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ttenraba ( talk • contribs) 07:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)