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They used cupellation, which present-day chemists still use for fire assay. Here's a write-up of how archaeologists reconstructed their metallurgical technique: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/medieval-african-gold
I'll digest it & add something to the article in due time. -- Pete Tillman ( talk) 16:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the location and name of the capital of the Mali Empire is not agreed upon. Some recent sources appear to be of the opinion that Niani definitively was not the capital of Mali, except possibly briefly long after its glory days. In my opinion it would be prudent to have a section of this article that discusses the debate over the identity of the capital(s) of the Mali Empire. Ornithopsis ( talk) 20:44, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Hey, I've found the same thing, and some similar problems with citing Kangaba as the original home of the Keita dynasty. I've been looking at these articles:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3172058 and
https://www.jstor.org/stable/182640 . I think having a section talking about the capital would be a good idea. But I really don't know what to do with all the various references to Niani and Kangaba scattered around this page and others like it. Open to suggestions and ideas.
Catjacket (
talk) 14:38, 2 February 2021
I know this "empire" didn't keep record of its demography, but it would be great to have some sourced estimate. All this page tells us right now is that this "empire" comprised a capital city + 400 villages... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.119.104.223 ( talk) 08:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't know Mali's history but "constitutional monarchy" seems VERY unlikely to me Braganza ( talk) 17:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I reorganized the page to better match the format used in Featured Articles on medieval states. I have neither the time nor expertise to do a great job on any of these on my own, but I think there are several sections that could be added, and I've noted locations I think sections should be added with comments in the article. The Culture section needs expansion in particular—at minimum there should be subsections on religion and jeliw, I think. I think there could also be a section on the legacy of the Mali Empire at the end, as exists for several other articles on notable civilizations (e.g. Byzantine Empire). Ornithopsis ( talk) 02:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
I think that a section about the manuscripts should be added in the main article and the stuff about them should be moved there. 68.37.205.126 ( talk) 12:45, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the references to the empire being called Manden Kurufaba, as I suspect we may be dealing with a case of wikiality. This topic was previously brought up on the talk page all the way back in 2013, but satisfactory evidence was not given to support the term. The page was edited to call it Manden Kurufa in 2007 [4] and Manden Kurufaba in 2012 [5]. The cited source for the term (Piga 2003) does not actually use it, though it does contain the word "kurufaba" as a translation of "confederation":
Ainsi l'empire ou la confédération (kurufaba) peut-il apparaître comme une forme agrandie du village ou du canton (kafo lè) et réciproquement le village ou le canton comme un petit État.
Il importe de constater en revanche que citte idée se retrouve dans l'oeuvure historique de Souleymane Kanté consacreée aux empires de Sosso et du Mali sous la forme de l'opposition déjà évoquée entre la confédération (kurufaba) et le canton (kafo lé).
I can't read French, so I'm not even sure if these statements are specifically about the Mali Empire or are more generally referring to the concept of confederations, but it's clear that at most they indicate that the Mali Empire was called a kurufaba. This is not enough to indicate its official name was Manden Kurufaba. For an analogy, the United States of America is a republic and a federation, but its name is not the Republic of America or American Federation. There are virtually no results on Google or Google Scholar for either term prior to their addition to Wikipedia; pretty much every Google Scholar result for the term turns up text similar to Piga 2003, which do not support the name of the empire being Manden Kurufaba. One [6] suggests that the term "kurufaba" may be a neologism devised by Solomana Kante. Suffice to say, there is inadequate evidence for the term Manden Kurufaba, and I think the term should be removed until a source that satisfactorily demonstrates its validity (and that can be trusted to not be just quoting Wikipedia) can be found. Ornithopsis ( talk) 06:41, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the "flag" in the infobox for now, as there are no sources included in either this article or at the image's description page to support the claim that this is the flag of Mansa Musa or the Mali Empire. Unlike modern national flags, there is no obvious reference to consult on the flags of historical states centuries ago, so clear and reliable sources should be included to verify that any such flag is actually real. The closest I could find to a source were a couple of books ( [7], [8]) that mention Mansa Musa's flag as "yellow with a red background", but that provides practically nothing to go on, as there's no indication of what pattern it would have.
From what I've seen in other articles so far, there is a lot of WP:OR on Wikipedia when it comes to "flags" of historical states. There is very little restriction on what users can upload to Wiki Commons and many users just upload their own personal creations, so please do not take any claims or labels in Wiki Commons at face value. Unlike Commons, content on Wikipedia must be verifiable, and that includes any claims about historical flags. R Prazeres ( talk) 05:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
I would like to draw attention to some problems regarding the identities of the mansas "Musa III", "Uli II", "Mahmud II", and "Mahmud III". The existence of mansas of these names seems to be yet another example of Delafosse's speculation being treated as historical fact. It is known from João de Barros that the Portuguese sent emissaries to the mansa of Mali late in João II's reign (c. 1490–1495) and in 1534, and that both of these mansas had the same name, but their name is not directly mentioned. Separately in Barros's account, he mentions emissaries being sent to someone called "Mahamed bem Manzugul, grandson of Mussa, king of Songo," which is "one of the most populous cities of...Mandinga," during the reign of João II. Delafosse thought this was the mansa of Mali, and suggested that "Manzugul" should be read as "Mansa Uli", thereby concluding that the two mansas contacted by the Portuguese were both named Mahmud, and that the earlier Mahmud was preceded by his father Uli and grandfather Musa. However, as discussed by Masonen (2000), it is not altogether clear that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a mansa of Mali, and indeed there seems to be good reason to think he was not. Several possibilities have been suggested over the years; Barth was under the impression that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a nephew of Askia Musa (perhaps confusing Portuguese neto "grandson" with German Neffe "nephew"?), Garrard apparently suggested he was a ruler of Begho, and Masonen speculatively suggested that "Mahamed", "king of Songo" could even refer to a Songhai ruler named Muhammad—i.e. Askia Muhammad himself. Suffice to say, there are a lot of problems with our coverage of the 15th-16th century history of Mali, and extensive revisions are needed. Ornithopsis ( talk) 02:04, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
What would y'all think of moving the bulk of the historiography and history sections to a new History of the Mali Empire page, and keeping a shorter summary here? I'm thinking of following the model of the Roman Empire page.
I find the current layout, with the names of kings as section heads and disputed or limited sourcing, confusing and messy, especially for a casual reader who wants to understand the overall sweep of the empire's history but doesn't need mansa-by-mansa details. Catjacket ( talk) 19:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
They used cupellation, which present-day chemists still use for fire assay. Here's a write-up of how archaeologists reconstructed their metallurgical technique: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/medieval-african-gold
I'll digest it & add something to the article in due time. -- Pete Tillman ( talk) 16:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the location and name of the capital of the Mali Empire is not agreed upon. Some recent sources appear to be of the opinion that Niani definitively was not the capital of Mali, except possibly briefly long after its glory days. In my opinion it would be prudent to have a section of this article that discusses the debate over the identity of the capital(s) of the Mali Empire. Ornithopsis ( talk) 20:44, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Hey, I've found the same thing, and some similar problems with citing Kangaba as the original home of the Keita dynasty. I've been looking at these articles:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3172058 and
https://www.jstor.org/stable/182640 . I think having a section talking about the capital would be a good idea. But I really don't know what to do with all the various references to Niani and Kangaba scattered around this page and others like it. Open to suggestions and ideas.
Catjacket (
talk) 14:38, 2 February 2021
I know this "empire" didn't keep record of its demography, but it would be great to have some sourced estimate. All this page tells us right now is that this "empire" comprised a capital city + 400 villages... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.119.104.223 ( talk) 08:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't know Mali's history but "constitutional monarchy" seems VERY unlikely to me Braganza ( talk) 17:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I reorganized the page to better match the format used in Featured Articles on medieval states. I have neither the time nor expertise to do a great job on any of these on my own, but I think there are several sections that could be added, and I've noted locations I think sections should be added with comments in the article. The Culture section needs expansion in particular—at minimum there should be subsections on religion and jeliw, I think. I think there could also be a section on the legacy of the Mali Empire at the end, as exists for several other articles on notable civilizations (e.g. Byzantine Empire). Ornithopsis ( talk) 02:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
I think that a section about the manuscripts should be added in the main article and the stuff about them should be moved there. 68.37.205.126 ( talk) 12:45, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the references to the empire being called Manden Kurufaba, as I suspect we may be dealing with a case of wikiality. This topic was previously brought up on the talk page all the way back in 2013, but satisfactory evidence was not given to support the term. The page was edited to call it Manden Kurufa in 2007 [4] and Manden Kurufaba in 2012 [5]. The cited source for the term (Piga 2003) does not actually use it, though it does contain the word "kurufaba" as a translation of "confederation":
Ainsi l'empire ou la confédération (kurufaba) peut-il apparaître comme une forme agrandie du village ou du canton (kafo lè) et réciproquement le village ou le canton comme un petit État.
Il importe de constater en revanche que citte idée se retrouve dans l'oeuvure historique de Souleymane Kanté consacreée aux empires de Sosso et du Mali sous la forme de l'opposition déjà évoquée entre la confédération (kurufaba) et le canton (kafo lé).
I can't read French, so I'm not even sure if these statements are specifically about the Mali Empire or are more generally referring to the concept of confederations, but it's clear that at most they indicate that the Mali Empire was called a kurufaba. This is not enough to indicate its official name was Manden Kurufaba. For an analogy, the United States of America is a republic and a federation, but its name is not the Republic of America or American Federation. There are virtually no results on Google or Google Scholar for either term prior to their addition to Wikipedia; pretty much every Google Scholar result for the term turns up text similar to Piga 2003, which do not support the name of the empire being Manden Kurufaba. One [6] suggests that the term "kurufaba" may be a neologism devised by Solomana Kante. Suffice to say, there is inadequate evidence for the term Manden Kurufaba, and I think the term should be removed until a source that satisfactorily demonstrates its validity (and that can be trusted to not be just quoting Wikipedia) can be found. Ornithopsis ( talk) 06:41, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the "flag" in the infobox for now, as there are no sources included in either this article or at the image's description page to support the claim that this is the flag of Mansa Musa or the Mali Empire. Unlike modern national flags, there is no obvious reference to consult on the flags of historical states centuries ago, so clear and reliable sources should be included to verify that any such flag is actually real. The closest I could find to a source were a couple of books ( [7], [8]) that mention Mansa Musa's flag as "yellow with a red background", but that provides practically nothing to go on, as there's no indication of what pattern it would have.
From what I've seen in other articles so far, there is a lot of WP:OR on Wikipedia when it comes to "flags" of historical states. There is very little restriction on what users can upload to Wiki Commons and many users just upload their own personal creations, so please do not take any claims or labels in Wiki Commons at face value. Unlike Commons, content on Wikipedia must be verifiable, and that includes any claims about historical flags. R Prazeres ( talk) 05:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
I would like to draw attention to some problems regarding the identities of the mansas "Musa III", "Uli II", "Mahmud II", and "Mahmud III". The existence of mansas of these names seems to be yet another example of Delafosse's speculation being treated as historical fact. It is known from João de Barros that the Portuguese sent emissaries to the mansa of Mali late in João II's reign (c. 1490–1495) and in 1534, and that both of these mansas had the same name, but their name is not directly mentioned. Separately in Barros's account, he mentions emissaries being sent to someone called "Mahamed bem Manzugul, grandson of Mussa, king of Songo," which is "one of the most populous cities of...Mandinga," during the reign of João II. Delafosse thought this was the mansa of Mali, and suggested that "Manzugul" should be read as "Mansa Uli", thereby concluding that the two mansas contacted by the Portuguese were both named Mahmud, and that the earlier Mahmud was preceded by his father Uli and grandfather Musa. However, as discussed by Masonen (2000), it is not altogether clear that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a mansa of Mali, and indeed there seems to be good reason to think he was not. Several possibilities have been suggested over the years; Barth was under the impression that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a nephew of Askia Musa (perhaps confusing Portuguese neto "grandson" with German Neffe "nephew"?), Garrard apparently suggested he was a ruler of Begho, and Masonen speculatively suggested that "Mahamed", "king of Songo" could even refer to a Songhai ruler named Muhammad—i.e. Askia Muhammad himself. Suffice to say, there are a lot of problems with our coverage of the 15th-16th century history of Mali, and extensive revisions are needed. Ornithopsis ( talk) 02:04, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
What would y'all think of moving the bulk of the historiography and history sections to a new History of the Mali Empire page, and keeping a shorter summary here? I'm thinking of following the model of the Roman Empire page.
I find the current layout, with the names of kings as section heads and disputed or limited sourcing, confusing and messy, especially for a casual reader who wants to understand the overall sweep of the empire's history but doesn't need mansa-by-mansa details. Catjacket ( talk) 19:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)