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To respond to the edit summary "north is not shewa sultanate":
Based on these sources [1] [2] center of Shewa Sultanate is Walalha which is 50 miles north East of Addis Ababa (by observation through Google map North East of Addis Ababa is North Shewa Amhara zone) near Sano, and Sano is near Debre Berhan [3]. Based on these sources [4] [5] [6] center of the state is Tegulat (known by muslims as Mar'ade) and Tegulet is found 15 miles north of Debre Berhan in North Shewa Amahara zone (or in Tegulet na Bulga awraja) [7] [8] [9] [10]. Menz people, previously muslims, are also found in North Shewa. Therfore, North Shewa is not only part of shewa sultanate but is also the center of the state. — EthiopianHabesha ( talk) 11:38, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
It does not matter if Menz people were found in Zambia, if its not the sultanate of shoa its not to be added. You can add that Menz were found in several regions on their article page not here.
Cambridge University says East. Shewa had a christian polity in the north at the same time the sultanate of shewa existed.
Duqsene (
talk)
20:47, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
Ifat is not Shewa learn the difference and stop adding unrelated polities into the page as you did the same in Abyssinian article. Shewa was annexed by Ifat later on, it wasnt the same state. It already indicates East Shewa in the article but you added north by misinterpreting the citations. Pankhurst and Umari are talking about Ifat not Shoa. By the time Umari visited the region the Shoa sultanate had been incorporated into Ifat. You also claimed Amharic only existed in the 13th century yet you have no problem adding source that claims Amharic was spoken since the 10th century at the start of the Sultanate of Showa. The source specifically says Ifat thus it cant be added. Find sources talking about Shewa specifically with the geographical location indicated on the source. Dont equate finding muslims with Shewa sultanate as Axum itself had muslim rulers. The muslims had posts everywhere as they were descendants of traders not all of them were subjects of the sultanate of shewa. East shewa is not considered lowland but highlands
see here
Duqsene (
talk)
18:55, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Open an RFC if you want to include this and get consensus and cease rollbacking. Shewa is also a province and mostly the east was shewa sultanate meaning west and north were christian polities, when Ifat took hold of Shewa it was no longer shewa sultante. The only thing relevant is that Shewa was taken over by the more powerful ifat. It wasnt just a name change again your generalizing all polities and blurring the lines between them. people of the land of shewa are not the same as people of the land of the sultanate of shewa, just because they are muslims doesnt mean they are part of the sultanate. Some of them were subjects of Axum. The Ifat sultante has its own page, why dont you add that content to the page? If the source doesnt say North its not to be added in. The source on Tegulat specifically says east shewa therefore why add north? Al umari's statement about Ifat should not be included in the article.
Duqsene (
talk)
15:10, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Ifat Sultanate is not Shewa Sultanate just because they follow the same religion. Dont add Ifats language on Shewa Sultanates page. Makhzumi dynasty was Sultanate of Shewa, the Walasma dynasty was Ifat led by Wali asma who overthrew the Shewa sultanate and incorporated it into Ifat
see here Shewa became a measly district within Ifat meaning the Ifat empire absorbed it. Find source for statements made in the article and dont misinterpret the source.
Duqsene (
talk)
18:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
That is your own conclusion and not what the source says. With no citations you can not add it in here. They can live in the same area it doesnt mean they are the same people or speak the same language. Ceruli analyzed the names of the Sultanate of Showa and proposed that they may have been Argobba. Amharic is a new language that came later and you know this (most likely under ifat), follow the sources and dont insert your opinion. No its not important to discuss another polity's language, add it into ifat not here. If you want to talk about the history of Ifat (shewa district) add it into the Ifat sultanate page, this is the Shewa Sultanate page. Why do you think there is two articles? They are not the same.
Duqsene (
talk)
17:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Sure if the source says that, it can be mentioned that Ifat was once part of Shewa and would later invade Shewa. Based on the sources Ifat became independent and would later invade Shewa. Now to say Ifat and Shewa had the same language and there was no diversity can not be added without a source. One source on Shewa contradicts Ifats persumed language. Its already a known fact even today that Ethiopia continues to have hundreds of different languages. Find a source that specifically says Shewa Sultanate was persumed to have spoken Amharic, dont look at maps and make your own concusion. Lets say Ifat during its Shewa sultanate district days spoke Amharic, how is this possible when Amharic was in existence only since the 13th century when Shewa sultanate existed since 10th century. Do you see why even if Al Umari visited Shewa before Ifats dominance, pankhurst would not be able to persume Shewa nor its ifat district spoke Amharic?
Duqsene (
talk)
19:27, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
A few decades later after Shewa was incorporated into Ifat an Egyptian courtier, Al Umari, will describe Ifat Sultanate as one of the largest as well as the richest of Ethiopias muslim provinces, and Shewa, Adal, Jamma, Lao and Shimi are places incorporated into Ifat. Al Umari further states that the inhabitants of Ifat spoke Abyssinian by which, according to Richard Pankhurst, was probably meant Amharic.[11] Based on other factors such as Al Umari's account and also by considering Cerulli's study of the names of the princes J. D. Fage and Roland Oliver were convinced that the inhabitants of Shewa spoke Ethiopian semetic language likely Argobba language.[17]
Ifats history and language is to be added in its own page. Umari describes one province within the Ifat sultanate called Ifat not Ifat sultanate itself, and says they spoke Abyssinian, he however lists other places such as Shewa, Adal etc which was invaded as comprising Ifat but does not go into detail on their language or culture. Ifat sultanate did invade Shewa thats all to be reported. Your misinterpreting the source therefore stop adding it in. Ask another editor if you like. The Ohio state source you listed differs from Abyssinian and instead lists Cushites as the key statesmen and Harlay Harari
[20] Ohio source explains Ifat but it might be Adal who comprised of these speakers which shows the diversity within the provinces as it contradicts pankhurst. I dont know why you want to add Ifat's language on shewa page. Addition of Ifat's language: Amharic, Cushite and other languages proposed by historians will turn this page into Ifat sultanate article.
Duqsene (
talk)
19:32, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
They can read the history of ifat on
Ifat Sultanate page not here. Summarize inhabitants of Ifat when it was a district in Shewa on the Ifat page. Dont add it here again.
Duqsene (
talk)
14:48, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The only summary to be included is that it was part of Shewa and Ifat would invade, no inclusion of its inhabitants or language because it has its own page. Amharic didnt exist until 13th century therefore you wont find any sources regarding shewa sultanate possibly speaking Amharic. If you can find sources that state shewa sultanate spoke Amharic then its fine to add in. Amda Seyon was fighting Ifat and defeated them therefore its a possibility that at this time Amharic came into existence but all this is irrelevant on the Shewa page. Ifat sultanate is not Shewa sultanate and vice versa.
Duqsene (
talk)
15:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The problem adding it here is that its not the Ifat page. Go and add it into Ifat sutlanate article and i wont revert you. I dont conclude that they were Argbba speakers but the source does, as cerulli analyzed the list of the rulers of the sultanate of shewa. I add what reliable citations have said not my own ideas. If you can do the same then there wont be any issues. Recently you added a map that labels Ifat in the Somalia region on the Oromo peoples page even though it has nothing to do with Oromo people., this shows you have a pattern of adding unrelated polities to pages. Let me get this straight, you would prefer to censor historical accuracy inorder to not create resentment in Ethiopia? This is unacceptable from a wikipedia editor, are you telling me you have a conflict of interest?
Duqsene (
talk)
20:47, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
If you have issues with the english language, then say so. Dont add the Ifat history on this page. Open an RFC if you want.
Duqsene (
talk)
16:56, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
Sorry this discussion is going nowhere as you dont seem to understand. Dont revert again. Follow the wikipedia procedure. Im not going to answer the same question a thousand times.
Duqsene (
talk)
17:51, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
1. Amharic didnt exist until 13th century. 2. Ifat sultanate is not Shewa sultanate. There's no need to continue discussion its better to ask for outside opinion.
Duqsene (
talk)
19:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Are you refusing to ask other editors?
Duqsene (
talk)
22:33, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
This discussion is not going anywhere, you have no consensus to add the material therefore stop reverting. If you cant find sources for your content, dont add it. Amharic can exist in BC thats not relevant to Shewa. Ifat is a different sultanate, as I said like the other user said, if you would like to go on wikipedia Amharic it might be better because there seems to be a language barrier. Duqsene ( talk) 02:44, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Shewan Sultans were deposed by the Walashma dynasity of Yifat, or Ifat (1285-1415), once Shewa's easternmost district. [21]
The Encyclopedia works by following what the academic or news source implies not your own feelings and opinions. Do you have a link that says Amharic existed in 1095 AND it was spoken in Shewa? Otherwise combining multiple sources to push your chosen statement is not the way to go about. You fixed my error that said East Shewa Zone, I appreciate that. I suggest you follow the same procedure here.
Duqsene (
talk)
18:20, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
You again added Ifat description on Shewa, Shewa had collapsed by the time Al Umari visited. Why are you adding in Ifat on the wrong page? Shewa was a district of Ifat, then you need a source that says when Shewa was a district of Ifat they spoke Amharic. Not just a source that implies they were a district of shewa. Do you see the difference between the source I provided and the source you are using? My source analysed the Shewa Sultanate itself while your source analyzes a political entity that existed after the collapse of the Sultanate of Shewa which is Ifat sutlanate.
Duqsene (
talk)
19:29, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
User:Srnec, why not change the phrase to, it sits on land identified with one of the locations of the biblical havilah? This would omit the assumption that shawa is mentioned in the bible. Historians also suggest that Zaila was key to the foundation of the Sultanate of Showa. [23] Duqsene ( talk) 02:24, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
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To respond to the edit summary "north is not shewa sultanate":
Based on these sources [1] [2] center of Shewa Sultanate is Walalha which is 50 miles north East of Addis Ababa (by observation through Google map North East of Addis Ababa is North Shewa Amhara zone) near Sano, and Sano is near Debre Berhan [3]. Based on these sources [4] [5] [6] center of the state is Tegulat (known by muslims as Mar'ade) and Tegulet is found 15 miles north of Debre Berhan in North Shewa Amahara zone (or in Tegulet na Bulga awraja) [7] [8] [9] [10]. Menz people, previously muslims, are also found in North Shewa. Therfore, North Shewa is not only part of shewa sultanate but is also the center of the state. — EthiopianHabesha ( talk) 11:38, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
It does not matter if Menz people were found in Zambia, if its not the sultanate of shoa its not to be added. You can add that Menz were found in several regions on their article page not here.
Cambridge University says East. Shewa had a christian polity in the north at the same time the sultanate of shewa existed.
Duqsene (
talk)
20:47, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
Ifat is not Shewa learn the difference and stop adding unrelated polities into the page as you did the same in Abyssinian article. Shewa was annexed by Ifat later on, it wasnt the same state. It already indicates East Shewa in the article but you added north by misinterpreting the citations. Pankhurst and Umari are talking about Ifat not Shoa. By the time Umari visited the region the Shoa sultanate had been incorporated into Ifat. You also claimed Amharic only existed in the 13th century yet you have no problem adding source that claims Amharic was spoken since the 10th century at the start of the Sultanate of Showa. The source specifically says Ifat thus it cant be added. Find sources talking about Shewa specifically with the geographical location indicated on the source. Dont equate finding muslims with Shewa sultanate as Axum itself had muslim rulers. The muslims had posts everywhere as they were descendants of traders not all of them were subjects of the sultanate of shewa. East shewa is not considered lowland but highlands
see here
Duqsene (
talk)
18:55, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
Open an RFC if you want to include this and get consensus and cease rollbacking. Shewa is also a province and mostly the east was shewa sultanate meaning west and north were christian polities, when Ifat took hold of Shewa it was no longer shewa sultante. The only thing relevant is that Shewa was taken over by the more powerful ifat. It wasnt just a name change again your generalizing all polities and blurring the lines between them. people of the land of shewa are not the same as people of the land of the sultanate of shewa, just because they are muslims doesnt mean they are part of the sultanate. Some of them were subjects of Axum. The Ifat sultante has its own page, why dont you add that content to the page? If the source doesnt say North its not to be added in. The source on Tegulat specifically says east shewa therefore why add north? Al umari's statement about Ifat should not be included in the article.
Duqsene (
talk)
15:10, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
Ifat Sultanate is not Shewa Sultanate just because they follow the same religion. Dont add Ifats language on Shewa Sultanates page. Makhzumi dynasty was Sultanate of Shewa, the Walasma dynasty was Ifat led by Wali asma who overthrew the Shewa sultanate and incorporated it into Ifat
see here Shewa became a measly district within Ifat meaning the Ifat empire absorbed it. Find source for statements made in the article and dont misinterpret the source.
Duqsene (
talk)
18:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)
That is your own conclusion and not what the source says. With no citations you can not add it in here. They can live in the same area it doesnt mean they are the same people or speak the same language. Ceruli analyzed the names of the Sultanate of Showa and proposed that they may have been Argobba. Amharic is a new language that came later and you know this (most likely under ifat), follow the sources and dont insert your opinion. No its not important to discuss another polity's language, add it into ifat not here. If you want to talk about the history of Ifat (shewa district) add it into the Ifat sultanate page, this is the Shewa Sultanate page. Why do you think there is two articles? They are not the same.
Duqsene (
talk)
17:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Sure if the source says that, it can be mentioned that Ifat was once part of Shewa and would later invade Shewa. Based on the sources Ifat became independent and would later invade Shewa. Now to say Ifat and Shewa had the same language and there was no diversity can not be added without a source. One source on Shewa contradicts Ifats persumed language. Its already a known fact even today that Ethiopia continues to have hundreds of different languages. Find a source that specifically says Shewa Sultanate was persumed to have spoken Amharic, dont look at maps and make your own concusion. Lets say Ifat during its Shewa sultanate district days spoke Amharic, how is this possible when Amharic was in existence only since the 13th century when Shewa sultanate existed since 10th century. Do you see why even if Al Umari visited Shewa before Ifats dominance, pankhurst would not be able to persume Shewa nor its ifat district spoke Amharic?
Duqsene (
talk)
19:27, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
A few decades later after Shewa was incorporated into Ifat an Egyptian courtier, Al Umari, will describe Ifat Sultanate as one of the largest as well as the richest of Ethiopias muslim provinces, and Shewa, Adal, Jamma, Lao and Shimi are places incorporated into Ifat. Al Umari further states that the inhabitants of Ifat spoke Abyssinian by which, according to Richard Pankhurst, was probably meant Amharic.[11] Based on other factors such as Al Umari's account and also by considering Cerulli's study of the names of the princes J. D. Fage and Roland Oliver were convinced that the inhabitants of Shewa spoke Ethiopian semetic language likely Argobba language.[17]
Ifats history and language is to be added in its own page. Umari describes one province within the Ifat sultanate called Ifat not Ifat sultanate itself, and says they spoke Abyssinian, he however lists other places such as Shewa, Adal etc which was invaded as comprising Ifat but does not go into detail on their language or culture. Ifat sultanate did invade Shewa thats all to be reported. Your misinterpreting the source therefore stop adding it in. Ask another editor if you like. The Ohio state source you listed differs from Abyssinian and instead lists Cushites as the key statesmen and Harlay Harari
[20] Ohio source explains Ifat but it might be Adal who comprised of these speakers which shows the diversity within the provinces as it contradicts pankhurst. I dont know why you want to add Ifat's language on shewa page. Addition of Ifat's language: Amharic, Cushite and other languages proposed by historians will turn this page into Ifat sultanate article.
Duqsene (
talk)
19:32, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
They can read the history of ifat on
Ifat Sultanate page not here. Summarize inhabitants of Ifat when it was a district in Shewa on the Ifat page. Dont add it here again.
Duqsene (
talk)
14:48, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The only summary to be included is that it was part of Shewa and Ifat would invade, no inclusion of its inhabitants or language because it has its own page. Amharic didnt exist until 13th century therefore you wont find any sources regarding shewa sultanate possibly speaking Amharic. If you can find sources that state shewa sultanate spoke Amharic then its fine to add in. Amda Seyon was fighting Ifat and defeated them therefore its a possibility that at this time Amharic came into existence but all this is irrelevant on the Shewa page. Ifat sultanate is not Shewa sultanate and vice versa.
Duqsene (
talk)
15:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
The problem adding it here is that its not the Ifat page. Go and add it into Ifat sutlanate article and i wont revert you. I dont conclude that they were Argbba speakers but the source does, as cerulli analyzed the list of the rulers of the sultanate of shewa. I add what reliable citations have said not my own ideas. If you can do the same then there wont be any issues. Recently you added a map that labels Ifat in the Somalia region on the Oromo peoples page even though it has nothing to do with Oromo people., this shows you have a pattern of adding unrelated polities to pages. Let me get this straight, you would prefer to censor historical accuracy inorder to not create resentment in Ethiopia? This is unacceptable from a wikipedia editor, are you telling me you have a conflict of interest?
Duqsene (
talk)
20:47, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
If you have issues with the english language, then say so. Dont add the Ifat history on this page. Open an RFC if you want.
Duqsene (
talk)
16:56, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
Sorry this discussion is going nowhere as you dont seem to understand. Dont revert again. Follow the wikipedia procedure. Im not going to answer the same question a thousand times.
Duqsene (
talk)
17:51, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
1. Amharic didnt exist until 13th century. 2. Ifat sultanate is not Shewa sultanate. There's no need to continue discussion its better to ask for outside opinion.
Duqsene (
talk)
19:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Are you refusing to ask other editors?
Duqsene (
talk)
22:33, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
This discussion is not going anywhere, you have no consensus to add the material therefore stop reverting. If you cant find sources for your content, dont add it. Amharic can exist in BC thats not relevant to Shewa. Ifat is a different sultanate, as I said like the other user said, if you would like to go on wikipedia Amharic it might be better because there seems to be a language barrier. Duqsene ( talk) 02:44, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Shewan Sultans were deposed by the Walashma dynasity of Yifat, or Ifat (1285-1415), once Shewa's easternmost district. [21]
The Encyclopedia works by following what the academic or news source implies not your own feelings and opinions. Do you have a link that says Amharic existed in 1095 AND it was spoken in Shewa? Otherwise combining multiple sources to push your chosen statement is not the way to go about. You fixed my error that said East Shewa Zone, I appreciate that. I suggest you follow the same procedure here.
Duqsene (
talk)
18:20, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
You again added Ifat description on Shewa, Shewa had collapsed by the time Al Umari visited. Why are you adding in Ifat on the wrong page? Shewa was a district of Ifat, then you need a source that says when Shewa was a district of Ifat they spoke Amharic. Not just a source that implies they were a district of shewa. Do you see the difference between the source I provided and the source you are using? My source analysed the Shewa Sultanate itself while your source analyzes a political entity that existed after the collapse of the Sultanate of Shewa which is Ifat sutlanate.
Duqsene (
talk)
19:29, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
User:Srnec, why not change the phrase to, it sits on land identified with one of the locations of the biblical havilah? This would omit the assumption that shawa is mentioned in the bible. Historians also suggest that Zaila was key to the foundation of the Sultanate of Showa. [23] Duqsene ( talk) 02:24, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
References