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![]() | On 20 August 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Major arcana. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
I'd like to remove this section entirely; it seems comparable to creating a similar section on the paganism article, which would be entirely out of place. It's not a specific event or group being referenced 'in pop culture'; the references here give nearly no context or useful information regarding the usage of the major arcana in the relevant works. Some examples (Shin Megami Tensei series, for instance) could be re-introduced in a similar section, but would need to be fleshed out to have any meaning in the context of this article. Thoughts before I make a change? Jacotto ( talk) 05:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
I am going to preface this by saying I admittedly know nothing about Tarot. I have, however, read a great deal of Wikipedia and it feels like the author of this section has never read an article on Wikipedia before and most certainly is not following the style guide.
"An encyclopedic style with a formal tone is important: straightforward, just-the-facts, instead of essay-like, argumentative, or opinionated. The goal of a Wikipedia article is to create a comprehensive and neutrally written summary of existing mainstream knowledge about a topic."
Almost immediately, this article fails to satisfy most of these criteria. This section is needlessly wordy at best and completely inappropriate most of the time. It reads as if it were ripped from an "academic" article intended to be read by an audience that was already completely familiar with Tarot, and concerned with extremely niche minutiae. A good encyclopedia explains the subject at hand in a way that can be read by anyone without having to have prior knowledge of the subject. The language should be kept straightforward, the content centered around mainstream facts and its relevance to the greater part of history. The author takes extreme liberty with word choice in places that he or she should not and continually wanders off on completely tangential information that most readers would not consider relevant whatsoever. At the end of this article, I still feel like I know very little about Major Arcana or why they are significant. To those out there who are knowledgeable on this subject: I challenge you to please update this article to the modern standards of Wikipedia.
Some examples:
esoteric commentary of the magical, mystery tarot
What the fresh hell is this? How is this even related to the previous sentence?
There is a line of development of the cartomantic tarot that occurs in parallel with the imposition of hermetic mysteries on the formerly mundane pack of cards,
No one knows what the "cartomantic tarot that occurs in parallel with the imposition of hermetic mysteries" is.
Lenormand was the first and most famous cartomancer to the stars,
What?
I could go on, but you get the point. Please, someone versed in this fix this mess. 162.232.216.110 ( talk) 19:17, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. 4 commenters on either side. Good arguments on both sides, this is a sticky one with inconsistency in the literature and MOS guidelines. This discussion has reached an impasse, but does not meet the criteria for a second relisting. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 21:25, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
– These are very frequently lowercase in sources about tarot: "major arcana, minor arcana, greater arcana, lesser arcana" (e.g. see [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], etc.). Per MOS:GAMECAPS (and MOS:CAPS more generally) there is no reason they should be capped in Wikipedia. Other articles such as Tarot, Tarot card reading, and Tarot of Marseilles, among others, use lowercase already. Being consistent with Wikipedia style would be a good move here. Dicklyon ( talk) 00:51, 20 August 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 02:00, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
mysterious or specialized knowledge, language, or information accessible or possessed only by the initiate —usually used in plural. Merriam-Webster See also arcana:
either of the two groups of cards in a tarot pack, the major arcana and the minor arcana.Oxford Learners Dictionaries and similar in MacMillan Dictionary and Collins Dictionary. It is a descriptive name phrase constructed from a common noun. It is not capitalised in dictionary sources, even in the specific context of tarot. To MOS:GAMECAPS see SMcC above and many commercial services advertise that readings are for entertainment purposes. Regardless, MOS:CAPS applies and it would need to be capitalised
in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources- ie fairly consistently. The raw n-gram data suggests it is capped about two-thirds (at 70%) of the time but as n-grams do not distinguish uses in title case such as headings and captions, this is likely an over-reporting. Adding "the" to the phrase does lower the relative incidence of caps a little. Regardless, it is not meeting a threshold of being of a "substantial majority" such that we could conclude it is consistently capped or "necessary" (per MOS:CAPS). Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 05:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
... attached to Major Arcana (major secrets) ...only goes to prove the point that it is a descriptive noun phrase and therefore not a proper name. It is overly generous to say that the n-gram usage rises to 80% capitalised before considering headings and like but even so, if it were "necessary" to capitalise it, then it would be done almost always. It isn't done almost always (when you yould expect tit to be greater than 90% or higher) therefore it is not necessary. Sorry but ... Cinderella157 ( talk) 07:34, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
The whole of the popular media section is uncited and reads like a list of every novel, song, video game or TV series that mentions MA or the names of the individual cards. Most, if not all, appear non-notable, so I'm proposing we delete this entire section. It can always return if and when notable, cited material is available. Bermicourt ( talk) 11:24, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Major Arcana article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 20 August 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Major arcana. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
I'd like to remove this section entirely; it seems comparable to creating a similar section on the paganism article, which would be entirely out of place. It's not a specific event or group being referenced 'in pop culture'; the references here give nearly no context or useful information regarding the usage of the major arcana in the relevant works. Some examples (Shin Megami Tensei series, for instance) could be re-introduced in a similar section, but would need to be fleshed out to have any meaning in the context of this article. Thoughts before I make a change? Jacotto ( talk) 05:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
I am going to preface this by saying I admittedly know nothing about Tarot. I have, however, read a great deal of Wikipedia and it feels like the author of this section has never read an article on Wikipedia before and most certainly is not following the style guide.
"An encyclopedic style with a formal tone is important: straightforward, just-the-facts, instead of essay-like, argumentative, or opinionated. The goal of a Wikipedia article is to create a comprehensive and neutrally written summary of existing mainstream knowledge about a topic."
Almost immediately, this article fails to satisfy most of these criteria. This section is needlessly wordy at best and completely inappropriate most of the time. It reads as if it were ripped from an "academic" article intended to be read by an audience that was already completely familiar with Tarot, and concerned with extremely niche minutiae. A good encyclopedia explains the subject at hand in a way that can be read by anyone without having to have prior knowledge of the subject. The language should be kept straightforward, the content centered around mainstream facts and its relevance to the greater part of history. The author takes extreme liberty with word choice in places that he or she should not and continually wanders off on completely tangential information that most readers would not consider relevant whatsoever. At the end of this article, I still feel like I know very little about Major Arcana or why they are significant. To those out there who are knowledgeable on this subject: I challenge you to please update this article to the modern standards of Wikipedia.
Some examples:
esoteric commentary of the magical, mystery tarot
What the fresh hell is this? How is this even related to the previous sentence?
There is a line of development of the cartomantic tarot that occurs in parallel with the imposition of hermetic mysteries on the formerly mundane pack of cards,
No one knows what the "cartomantic tarot that occurs in parallel with the imposition of hermetic mysteries" is.
Lenormand was the first and most famous cartomancer to the stars,
What?
I could go on, but you get the point. Please, someone versed in this fix this mess. 162.232.216.110 ( talk) 19:17, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. 4 commenters on either side. Good arguments on both sides, this is a sticky one with inconsistency in the literature and MOS guidelines. This discussion has reached an impasse, but does not meet the criteria for a second relisting. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 21:25, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
– These are very frequently lowercase in sources about tarot: "major arcana, minor arcana, greater arcana, lesser arcana" (e.g. see [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], etc.). Per MOS:GAMECAPS (and MOS:CAPS more generally) there is no reason they should be capped in Wikipedia. Other articles such as Tarot, Tarot card reading, and Tarot of Marseilles, among others, use lowercase already. Being consistent with Wikipedia style would be a good move here. Dicklyon ( talk) 00:51, 20 August 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 02:00, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
mysterious or specialized knowledge, language, or information accessible or possessed only by the initiate —usually used in plural. Merriam-Webster See also arcana:
either of the two groups of cards in a tarot pack, the major arcana and the minor arcana.Oxford Learners Dictionaries and similar in MacMillan Dictionary and Collins Dictionary. It is a descriptive name phrase constructed from a common noun. It is not capitalised in dictionary sources, even in the specific context of tarot. To MOS:GAMECAPS see SMcC above and many commercial services advertise that readings are for entertainment purposes. Regardless, MOS:CAPS applies and it would need to be capitalised
in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources- ie fairly consistently. The raw n-gram data suggests it is capped about two-thirds (at 70%) of the time but as n-grams do not distinguish uses in title case such as headings and captions, this is likely an over-reporting. Adding "the" to the phrase does lower the relative incidence of caps a little. Regardless, it is not meeting a threshold of being of a "substantial majority" such that we could conclude it is consistently capped or "necessary" (per MOS:CAPS). Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 05:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
... attached to Major Arcana (major secrets) ...only goes to prove the point that it is a descriptive noun phrase and therefore not a proper name. It is overly generous to say that the n-gram usage rises to 80% capitalised before considering headings and like but even so, if it were "necessary" to capitalise it, then it would be done almost always. It isn't done almost always (when you yould expect tit to be greater than 90% or higher) therefore it is not necessary. Sorry but ... Cinderella157 ( talk) 07:34, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
The whole of the popular media section is uncited and reads like a list of every novel, song, video game or TV series that mentions MA or the names of the individual cards. Most, if not all, appear non-notable, so I'm proposing we delete this entire section. It can always return if and when notable, cited material is available. Bermicourt ( talk) 11:24, 31 March 2022 (UTC)