![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is the page for discussing colours, layout, presentation, and similar issues with the front page.
Old talk:
POLL:
1: We want to design and introduce a new temp page now:
2: We want to leave the current front page for now (leaving open the prospect of revisiting the issue):
3: We want to let people design new front pages if they like, and judge the outcome of their efforts after actually seeing them:
2+3: We should announce a competition of new design on press release.'
4: This is a stupid "vote".
Include:
Exclude
The voting on TEMP5 finally produced a result of
which going by comments broke down into
So, not surprisingly, given the wording of the question, the result was still unclear. It could be interpreted as opposing the current page, opposing TEMP5 or if those who were against TEMP5 were for the current page but just didn't say it, an endorsement of the current page. This ambiguous mess solves nothing, and will probably just result in more votes on alternative temps. We need clarity. In reality we have two questions facing us.
Rather than having this issue drift on indefinitely, with Temp6, Temp7 . . . Temp 12 . . . Temp 21 etc being debated ad infinitum, I think we should focus on the two questions above. So lets start the final ball rolling. FearÉIREANN
So do you prefer going around in circles, spending weeks voting in a manner that at the end still doesn't reach a conclusion on anything? That's all the votes we have had up to now have produced. Nothing but confusion. This way we will have one final decision, which we can then use as a basis to work to the next step. FearÉIREANN 19:59, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
When or if it decided to introduce a new front page it should be based on what the community recommends below. (The final draft or drafts should go to the community so that, every step of the way it rather than a small group makes the decisions.) FearÉIREANN
Not sure quite how to vote. I believe the main page could be improved and would like to see it change, and I support that. My vote against Temp5 was simply because I did not see it as an improvement. On the other hand, I do not feel any particular urgency to update the main page, and do not believe that the timing relative to the press release is important. Generally, I consider it unlikely that the press release will have the degree of impact that is ascribed to it by some Wikipedians. As a means of proceeding, I would suggest that a decision first be made on what to include, what to remove (Temp5 was too cluttered); design can follow. Kat 22:18, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Votes and comments have been archived at Main Page/Temp5/Votes archive.
There are currently 17 votes for and 28 against. So basically rejected, but you can still express your opinion there if you want.
A summary of the comments follows. This does not include comments which would not help in future redesigns such as "it's better" or "It's abominable". You can add to these if you like.
Temp5's been modified a little since then - these comments apply to older versions.
Moved to Meta: m:Voting procedure and m:Talk:Voting procedure
move to Talk:Main Page/Temp5
The "Other languages" section is real ugly. I suggest using a colspan 2 cell at the bottom for all the languages and sister projects. Even then I would put smal tags around all of it and give the cell a light gray background. -- mav 02:09, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
We should have the main page layout decided by when the Wikimedia press release gets out. It looks like the majority of people voted for the new design (7 to 3), so can I please impliment it?
There are a few things brewing right now:
It seems like people want to wait until all three are finished, and do them all at once. I am obviously a big supporter of temp5, but I do think we should wait. When the time gets closer, it will probably be announced on the Announcements page, the current Main Page, and the Village pump. For now, please direct all your suggestions and criticisms to Talk:Main Page/Temp5 so we can concentrate on making a main page that everyone (well, almost everyone anyway) is happy with. Be specific, and be ruthless :) -- Merphant 22:22, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I am glad to see my suggestion of a link on the recent changes to the vote here proved useful. However in the interests of clarity I would suggest a slightly different wording. What is there now, Vote on the new design of the main page is ambiguous. It could be interpreted as another vote on the current new page. A clearer working would be Vote on the proposed replacement design for the main page. That are three important word changes.
I think that sentence is more factually correct, less potentially ambiguous and also more correct grammatically. FearÉIREANN 23:19, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
BTW when a final cut off date is set, I'd suggest stating it on the village pump, the wiki-l and on the Recent Changes page, ie, Vote to finish on 14th August or whatever date is chosen. That way you add a bit of urgency into the thing. FearÉIREANN 23:19, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Yeah. Let it go on for a while. It is giving a useful idea of what people want.
We could sort of borrow from the lawmaking method.
If there is agreement to design a new one, a list of questions set together (Committee Stage) Do you want the page to have
Finally, here is the version put together based on all people want in. (Report Stage)
And hey presto, a Bill has been passed, oops, I mean a new front page has been adopted. (If we want to be really political, we can send it to President Jimbo with no right of veto. Hee Hee!) And finally, definitely, we have a front page, not the Temp1, Temp2, Temp3, . . . Temp214, 'no, lets go back to Temp108 and resign it again' debate. Heck I knew those guys in Westminster, Leinster House, Capitol Hill, etc had to have some good reason for doing things that way. FearÉIREANN 02:37, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC) (the politics wonk!)
That is what we have now, Martin, except it isn't one committees but many, each doing their own thing. What I am proposing is we pull everything together by taking a decision in stages; do we want a new front page, if we do what should be in or out of it, are we all happy with the final proposed new front page. Right now all we are doing is going around and around in circles; we don't know if we even want a new front page, let alone what we want in it, what is sometimes colloqually known as "pissing in the dark". At this stage we will still be sort-of discussing sort-of ideas for what sort-of should be on the frontpage in Christmas, with no real decisions taken on anything, and everyone by that stage bored rigid by the whole thing. Do it in stages and everyone focuses on each question as it comes up, with a definite decision taken on which we can build, the ever decreasing cirles management of decision taking, as it is known.
Where the heck is the documented consensus indicating a new vote is warranted? If this cannot be shown then I declare the "new vote" to be invalid, null and void. It is ridiculous in the extreme to call a new vote just because you personally don't like the results of the previous one. A person could do this repeatedly and wear out his or her opposition until they get their way. Very unwiki and undemocratic. -- mav
Hold on a moment, Mav. That is a gross misrepresentation that is unworthy of you. We have been going around in circles for weeks. At the end of all of this, not alone do we not know what we want, we don't even know where the hell we are anymore. Some people want Temp5. Some people want change but not Temp5. Some people want bits of Temp5, some people don't want to change at all and prefer the current page.
From the figures of the last vote
In other words, no clear decision on what we want, which is hardly surprising as the question never gave a clear choice on the current page, merely yes or no to a proposed replacement. Just because you wrote the current front page does not give you the right to throw tantrums, much less think you can declare anything null and void. We are going to have this issue revisited time and time again, with Temps being thrown up every couple of days. All this vote does is clearly and unambiguously (something completely lacking in any vote heretofore) state give clear choices.
That is how professional organisations do business, not wait until Martin comes up with a temp people like, or you keep your fingers crossed that no-one comes up with a more popular option to your front page, one which was not voted onto the page in the first place. (And BTW I was the one who defended your page when Oliver and The Cunctator tried to do their unilateral thing.) After weeks of debate, we still produced no clear result, merely endless ambiguity. This way, we actually take a decision, clearly and definitively and whatever is the result can claim to have been a result of a decisive vote, not endless going around in circles. Your comments are a gross misrepresentation of what is going up and all the more surprising coming from you. FearÉIREANN 21:31, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Could it be that Mav is worried the vote might show his designed page actually is not what people want, and that Martin is worried that people might just say "enough, leave it alone for now", and his pre-occupation with designing temps might have to be put on hold. But it isn't their decision to make, but everyone's. FearÉIREANN 22:14, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I can see Martin's point - people generally need to see something before they know if they want it or not. Angela
I vote that I need help with the Eurovision articles, especially with actual details of each contest, and some help with national preselections and internal selections. O I also vote that I will go to sleep now :-).-fonzy
I second. Lets have a vote:
I second. Lets have a vote:
Sorry, Fonzy, no sleep for you tonight! :-)))) (Unless Martin wants to create a TEMPfonzy!!!) FearÉIREANN 01:13, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Good God staying awake till all Eurovision ARticel are finished that will take me over another year mabye even more, thank god only1 person voted for that one. :-) - fonzy
This "new vote" has no legal basis and is illegal and void. There was no consensus on whether there should be a vote and a single person has no authority to unilaterally call for a binding vote. This is a slap in the face of our traditions of trying to seek the best proposals through discussion, compromise and consensus building. Simply forming the questions of a vote is way too much power to be trusted to any one individual. Whatever the outcome of this straw poll (and that is all that it is), I will fight to make sure it is not binding. Voting is absurd and unwiki when it is used as a way to circumvent the process of consensus building. -- mav 07:31, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)~
There are clear divergent views on the nature of the front page. No clear method was provided to allow people to decide. There now is a method. If Mav wants to keep his page he can argue for it, not turn around and tell people they cannot because he says they can't. This is the way we should have done it all along; put the current page on (which I defended and stopped people vandalising) in a full vote. Decide whether to keep it in a vote. Instead the whole process up to now has been a complete fiasco. And it is outrageous that Martin tried to take the mention of this page on the Recent Pages. FearÉIREANN 18:23, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
STOP IT, ALL OF YOU! You guys need a calm-down period. :) wshun 19:11, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Do we need a Wikipedia:Playground where you can all run around shouting at each other and being silly? Angela
JT, you are missing the point. I am not taking issue with the value of the current vote or trying to protect the current layout of the Main Page. In fact I think the current Main Page can and should be greatly improved. What I'm taking issue with is how the way the current "new vote" at the top of this page was created; unilaterally by you. This violates a core Wikipedia concept; that we seek to form broad-based consensus on issues that appeal to the great majority of users and then, when all else fails, we democratically set-up a vote in order to resolve the issue. But the community should be the ones setting-up the vote, not a single person. I'm not taking issue with the goal of the vote or your intentions (both good, IMO), I'm taking serious issue with your methods. -- mav
Let me list my concerns with this vote, and apologies for the length. First, fixed concerns:
However, I still have some outstanding concerns:
I don't see that any of these concerns are insurmountable, so if we work together to address them, along with any others that may be raised, then we might end up with the community-setup vote that Mav seeks. Martin 21:58, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
An example of groupthink and meta:More heat than light. Looks like were stuck in status quo at the moment -- Kat 00:28, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) (links changed: Martin)
I quail at the thought of reading all the above and actually trying to understand what I'm voting on - life is too short. So I'll just say that I like the Mainpage/Temp5 one a lot. Tannin 11:04, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Oh, those pastels are still brutally mindnumbing. I feel strangely compelled to eat jellybeans now and save kittens. -- The Cunctator 05:14, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The Main Page doesn't look good when I use Explorer 5.0/Mac. Have a look at this: Image:Enwikimainpage.jpg -- Nico 01:07, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is the page for discussing colours, layout, presentation, and similar issues with the front page.
Old talk:
POLL:
1: We want to design and introduce a new temp page now:
2: We want to leave the current front page for now (leaving open the prospect of revisiting the issue):
3: We want to let people design new front pages if they like, and judge the outcome of their efforts after actually seeing them:
2+3: We should announce a competition of new design on press release.'
4: This is a stupid "vote".
Include:
Exclude
The voting on TEMP5 finally produced a result of
which going by comments broke down into
So, not surprisingly, given the wording of the question, the result was still unclear. It could be interpreted as opposing the current page, opposing TEMP5 or if those who were against TEMP5 were for the current page but just didn't say it, an endorsement of the current page. This ambiguous mess solves nothing, and will probably just result in more votes on alternative temps. We need clarity. In reality we have two questions facing us.
Rather than having this issue drift on indefinitely, with Temp6, Temp7 . . . Temp 12 . . . Temp 21 etc being debated ad infinitum, I think we should focus on the two questions above. So lets start the final ball rolling. FearÉIREANN
So do you prefer going around in circles, spending weeks voting in a manner that at the end still doesn't reach a conclusion on anything? That's all the votes we have had up to now have produced. Nothing but confusion. This way we will have one final decision, which we can then use as a basis to work to the next step. FearÉIREANN 19:59, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
When or if it decided to introduce a new front page it should be based on what the community recommends below. (The final draft or drafts should go to the community so that, every step of the way it rather than a small group makes the decisions.) FearÉIREANN
Not sure quite how to vote. I believe the main page could be improved and would like to see it change, and I support that. My vote against Temp5 was simply because I did not see it as an improvement. On the other hand, I do not feel any particular urgency to update the main page, and do not believe that the timing relative to the press release is important. Generally, I consider it unlikely that the press release will have the degree of impact that is ascribed to it by some Wikipedians. As a means of proceeding, I would suggest that a decision first be made on what to include, what to remove (Temp5 was too cluttered); design can follow. Kat 22:18, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Votes and comments have been archived at Main Page/Temp5/Votes archive.
There are currently 17 votes for and 28 against. So basically rejected, but you can still express your opinion there if you want.
A summary of the comments follows. This does not include comments which would not help in future redesigns such as "it's better" or "It's abominable". You can add to these if you like.
Temp5's been modified a little since then - these comments apply to older versions.
Moved to Meta: m:Voting procedure and m:Talk:Voting procedure
move to Talk:Main Page/Temp5
The "Other languages" section is real ugly. I suggest using a colspan 2 cell at the bottom for all the languages and sister projects. Even then I would put smal tags around all of it and give the cell a light gray background. -- mav 02:09, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
We should have the main page layout decided by when the Wikimedia press release gets out. It looks like the majority of people voted for the new design (7 to 3), so can I please impliment it?
There are a few things brewing right now:
It seems like people want to wait until all three are finished, and do them all at once. I am obviously a big supporter of temp5, but I do think we should wait. When the time gets closer, it will probably be announced on the Announcements page, the current Main Page, and the Village pump. For now, please direct all your suggestions and criticisms to Talk:Main Page/Temp5 so we can concentrate on making a main page that everyone (well, almost everyone anyway) is happy with. Be specific, and be ruthless :) -- Merphant 22:22, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I am glad to see my suggestion of a link on the recent changes to the vote here proved useful. However in the interests of clarity I would suggest a slightly different wording. What is there now, Vote on the new design of the main page is ambiguous. It could be interpreted as another vote on the current new page. A clearer working would be Vote on the proposed replacement design for the main page. That are three important word changes.
I think that sentence is more factually correct, less potentially ambiguous and also more correct grammatically. FearÉIREANN 23:19, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
BTW when a final cut off date is set, I'd suggest stating it on the village pump, the wiki-l and on the Recent Changes page, ie, Vote to finish on 14th August or whatever date is chosen. That way you add a bit of urgency into the thing. FearÉIREANN 23:19, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Yeah. Let it go on for a while. It is giving a useful idea of what people want.
We could sort of borrow from the lawmaking method.
If there is agreement to design a new one, a list of questions set together (Committee Stage) Do you want the page to have
Finally, here is the version put together based on all people want in. (Report Stage)
And hey presto, a Bill has been passed, oops, I mean a new front page has been adopted. (If we want to be really political, we can send it to President Jimbo with no right of veto. Hee Hee!) And finally, definitely, we have a front page, not the Temp1, Temp2, Temp3, . . . Temp214, 'no, lets go back to Temp108 and resign it again' debate. Heck I knew those guys in Westminster, Leinster House, Capitol Hill, etc had to have some good reason for doing things that way. FearÉIREANN 02:37, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC) (the politics wonk!)
That is what we have now, Martin, except it isn't one committees but many, each doing their own thing. What I am proposing is we pull everything together by taking a decision in stages; do we want a new front page, if we do what should be in or out of it, are we all happy with the final proposed new front page. Right now all we are doing is going around and around in circles; we don't know if we even want a new front page, let alone what we want in it, what is sometimes colloqually known as "pissing in the dark". At this stage we will still be sort-of discussing sort-of ideas for what sort-of should be on the frontpage in Christmas, with no real decisions taken on anything, and everyone by that stage bored rigid by the whole thing. Do it in stages and everyone focuses on each question as it comes up, with a definite decision taken on which we can build, the ever decreasing cirles management of decision taking, as it is known.
Where the heck is the documented consensus indicating a new vote is warranted? If this cannot be shown then I declare the "new vote" to be invalid, null and void. It is ridiculous in the extreme to call a new vote just because you personally don't like the results of the previous one. A person could do this repeatedly and wear out his or her opposition until they get their way. Very unwiki and undemocratic. -- mav
Hold on a moment, Mav. That is a gross misrepresentation that is unworthy of you. We have been going around in circles for weeks. At the end of all of this, not alone do we not know what we want, we don't even know where the hell we are anymore. Some people want Temp5. Some people want change but not Temp5. Some people want bits of Temp5, some people don't want to change at all and prefer the current page.
From the figures of the last vote
In other words, no clear decision on what we want, which is hardly surprising as the question never gave a clear choice on the current page, merely yes or no to a proposed replacement. Just because you wrote the current front page does not give you the right to throw tantrums, much less think you can declare anything null and void. We are going to have this issue revisited time and time again, with Temps being thrown up every couple of days. All this vote does is clearly and unambiguously (something completely lacking in any vote heretofore) state give clear choices.
That is how professional organisations do business, not wait until Martin comes up with a temp people like, or you keep your fingers crossed that no-one comes up with a more popular option to your front page, one which was not voted onto the page in the first place. (And BTW I was the one who defended your page when Oliver and The Cunctator tried to do their unilateral thing.) After weeks of debate, we still produced no clear result, merely endless ambiguity. This way, we actually take a decision, clearly and definitively and whatever is the result can claim to have been a result of a decisive vote, not endless going around in circles. Your comments are a gross misrepresentation of what is going up and all the more surprising coming from you. FearÉIREANN 21:31, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Could it be that Mav is worried the vote might show his designed page actually is not what people want, and that Martin is worried that people might just say "enough, leave it alone for now", and his pre-occupation with designing temps might have to be put on hold. But it isn't their decision to make, but everyone's. FearÉIREANN 22:14, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I can see Martin's point - people generally need to see something before they know if they want it or not. Angela
I vote that I need help with the Eurovision articles, especially with actual details of each contest, and some help with national preselections and internal selections. O I also vote that I will go to sleep now :-).-fonzy
I second. Lets have a vote:
I second. Lets have a vote:
Sorry, Fonzy, no sleep for you tonight! :-)))) (Unless Martin wants to create a TEMPfonzy!!!) FearÉIREANN 01:13, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Good God staying awake till all Eurovision ARticel are finished that will take me over another year mabye even more, thank god only1 person voted for that one. :-) - fonzy
This "new vote" has no legal basis and is illegal and void. There was no consensus on whether there should be a vote and a single person has no authority to unilaterally call for a binding vote. This is a slap in the face of our traditions of trying to seek the best proposals through discussion, compromise and consensus building. Simply forming the questions of a vote is way too much power to be trusted to any one individual. Whatever the outcome of this straw poll (and that is all that it is), I will fight to make sure it is not binding. Voting is absurd and unwiki when it is used as a way to circumvent the process of consensus building. -- mav 07:31, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)~
There are clear divergent views on the nature of the front page. No clear method was provided to allow people to decide. There now is a method. If Mav wants to keep his page he can argue for it, not turn around and tell people they cannot because he says they can't. This is the way we should have done it all along; put the current page on (which I defended and stopped people vandalising) in a full vote. Decide whether to keep it in a vote. Instead the whole process up to now has been a complete fiasco. And it is outrageous that Martin tried to take the mention of this page on the Recent Pages. FearÉIREANN 18:23, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
STOP IT, ALL OF YOU! You guys need a calm-down period. :) wshun 19:11, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Do we need a Wikipedia:Playground where you can all run around shouting at each other and being silly? Angela
JT, you are missing the point. I am not taking issue with the value of the current vote or trying to protect the current layout of the Main Page. In fact I think the current Main Page can and should be greatly improved. What I'm taking issue with is how the way the current "new vote" at the top of this page was created; unilaterally by you. This violates a core Wikipedia concept; that we seek to form broad-based consensus on issues that appeal to the great majority of users and then, when all else fails, we democratically set-up a vote in order to resolve the issue. But the community should be the ones setting-up the vote, not a single person. I'm not taking issue with the goal of the vote or your intentions (both good, IMO), I'm taking serious issue with your methods. -- mav
Let me list my concerns with this vote, and apologies for the length. First, fixed concerns:
However, I still have some outstanding concerns:
I don't see that any of these concerns are insurmountable, so if we work together to address them, along with any others that may be raised, then we might end up with the community-setup vote that Mav seeks. Martin 21:58, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
An example of groupthink and meta:More heat than light. Looks like were stuck in status quo at the moment -- Kat 00:28, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC) (links changed: Martin)
I quail at the thought of reading all the above and actually trying to understand what I'm voting on - life is too short. So I'll just say that I like the Mainpage/Temp5 one a lot. Tannin 11:04, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Oh, those pastels are still brutally mindnumbing. I feel strangely compelled to eat jellybeans now and save kittens. -- The Cunctator 05:14, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The Main Page doesn't look good when I use Explorer 5.0/Mac. Have a look at this: Image:Enwikimainpage.jpg -- Nico 01:07, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)