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Mahmud Pasha Angelović article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article contradics itself . One sentence claims that Veli Mahmut was appointed as the Grand Vizier in 1456 and another one claims that he was named Grand Vizier within months after the Fall of Constantinople in 1453. (According to my sources the former claim is correct) I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 09:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't agree. Mahmut was his name and Pasha was his title. In old Turkish (unlike European languages) the titles always follow the proper nouns. If the proposed Mahmud Pasha Angelović is used as a article title, you see that the title would be replaced between the two proper nouns. This type of naming is neither Turkish nor European. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 12:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
What conclusions result that he was a Croat, except that any sources are cited? The Anđelović, Mahmud and his brother Mihailo, were Serbs with Greek descent of the Philanthropenoi family. Are there any Croatian ancestors known, that we could say that they were Croats or with Croatian descent?-- Carski ( talk) 22:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ottoman sources claim he was Croat and they are 100 per cent correct.
"Mahmud Pasha Angelović" -Llc only 1 hit Takabeg ( talk) 11:58, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed for over a week. Jenks24 ( talk) 11:26, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Mahmud Pasha, Grand Vizier →
Mahmud Pasha – Primary Topic is this article.--
Zoupan
03:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved majority after a month. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 10:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Mahmud Pasha → Mahmud Pasha Angelovic – This Mahmud Pasha is not WP:PRIMARYTOPIC because there are two more Grand Viziers by the same name ( Mahmud Nedim Pasha and Mahmud Shevket Pasha) and an admiral, among others, see some of them listed in Mahmud Pasha (disambiguation). "Mahmud Pasha Angelovic" yields 30-odd results in Google Books, and 25 results in Google Scholar while Mahmud Shevket Pasha alone yields similar number of results in Google Books and 37 results in Google Scholar. According to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term", a criteria which Mahmud Pasha Angelovic fail to fulfill. Therefore I suggest renaming the article. Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 07:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC) Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 03:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC) Filanca ( talk) 09:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Stavrides quite explicitly explains that Mahmud Pasha was not a Croat in any sense other than political -- using the South Slavic ambiguity in defining Serbs and Croats for personal diplomatic purposes. He lists quite in detail reasons why the subject was a Serb-Greek. Why is the preposterous and insane idea of Mahmud Pasha's quasi-croatness being pushed forth by misquoting sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.41.252.228 ( talk) 21:12, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
The best sources elaborating on him use "ć". The common name is Mahmud Pasha Angelović. This was neglected in the previous move request, although stated. This was the article name in 2011.-- Zoupan 20:58, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Angelović
Angelović
Angelović
Angelović
If he is of the Angelos family, then he is an ethnic Greek. Just because he was born in the Serbian Despotate and family members were part of the Serbian elite does not make him an ethnic Serb. Angelovic is just a Slavicisation of the Greek name. 198.251.52.155 ( talk) 09:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Mahmud Pasha Angelović article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | It is requested that a photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality.
Wikipedians in Turkey may be able to help! The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article contradics itself . One sentence claims that Veli Mahmut was appointed as the Grand Vizier in 1456 and another one claims that he was named Grand Vizier within months after the Fall of Constantinople in 1453. (According to my sources the former claim is correct) I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 09:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't agree. Mahmut was his name and Pasha was his title. In old Turkish (unlike European languages) the titles always follow the proper nouns. If the proposed Mahmud Pasha Angelović is used as a article title, you see that the title would be replaced between the two proper nouns. This type of naming is neither Turkish nor European. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 12:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
What conclusions result that he was a Croat, except that any sources are cited? The Anđelović, Mahmud and his brother Mihailo, were Serbs with Greek descent of the Philanthropenoi family. Are there any Croatian ancestors known, that we could say that they were Croats or with Croatian descent?-- Carski ( talk) 22:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC) Ottoman sources claim he was Croat and they are 100 per cent correct.
"Mahmud Pasha Angelović" -Llc only 1 hit Takabeg ( talk) 11:58, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed for over a week. Jenks24 ( talk) 11:26, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Mahmud Pasha, Grand Vizier →
Mahmud Pasha – Primary Topic is this article.--
Zoupan
03:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved majority after a month. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 10:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Mahmud Pasha → Mahmud Pasha Angelovic – This Mahmud Pasha is not WP:PRIMARYTOPIC because there are two more Grand Viziers by the same name ( Mahmud Nedim Pasha and Mahmud Shevket Pasha) and an admiral, among others, see some of them listed in Mahmud Pasha (disambiguation). "Mahmud Pasha Angelovic" yields 30-odd results in Google Books, and 25 results in Google Scholar while Mahmud Shevket Pasha alone yields similar number of results in Google Books and 37 results in Google Scholar. According to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term", a criteria which Mahmud Pasha Angelovic fail to fulfill. Therefore I suggest renaming the article. Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 07:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC) Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 03:07, 5 March 2013 (UTC) Filanca ( talk) 09:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Stavrides quite explicitly explains that Mahmud Pasha was not a Croat in any sense other than political -- using the South Slavic ambiguity in defining Serbs and Croats for personal diplomatic purposes. He lists quite in detail reasons why the subject was a Serb-Greek. Why is the preposterous and insane idea of Mahmud Pasha's quasi-croatness being pushed forth by misquoting sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.41.252.228 ( talk) 21:12, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
The best sources elaborating on him use "ć". The common name is Mahmud Pasha Angelović. This was neglected in the previous move request, although stated. This was the article name in 2011.-- Zoupan 20:58, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Angelović
Angelović
Angelović
Angelović
If he is of the Angelos family, then he is an ethnic Greek. Just because he was born in the Serbian Despotate and family members were part of the Serbian elite does not make him an ethnic Serb. Angelovic is just a Slavicisation of the Greek name. 198.251.52.155 ( talk) 09:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)