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The information regarding President Ahmadinejad's recent letter to Americans has clearly been presented in a way that reflects the author's personal opinion. I would like to suggest an edition of this particular information, or else a re-entry.
68.103.160.85 05:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC) Dr. Caffrey
About Palestine, he argues "that the US administration has persistently provided blind and blanket support to" Israel, even while Israel "has driven millions of the inhabitants of Palestine out of their homes." About Iraq, claims that "hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, maimed or displaced," that "terrorism in Iraq has grown exponentially," and that "nothing has been done to rebuild the ruins, to restore the infrastructure or to alleviate poverty." He says that he considers it extremely unlikely that the American People "consent to the billions of dollars of annual expenditure from your treasury for this military misadventure." Ahmadinejad also criticizes the "illegal and immoral behavior" of the US administration, not only throughout the world in Guantanamo and Abu-Ghraib, but also inside the United States. He states that "civil liberties in the United States are being increasingly curtailed" under the pretext of "the war on terror." He claims that "private phones are tapped, subjects are arbitrarily arrested, sometimes beaten in the streets, or even shot to death." Ultimately, he concludes that "the American people are not satisfied with this behavior and they showed their discontent in the recent elections." He recommends that "in a demonstration of respect for the American people and for humanity, the right of Palestinians to live in their own homeland should be recognized." He also suggests that it would "be more beneficial to bring the US officers and soldiers home, and to spend the astronomical US military expenditures in Iraq for the welfare and prosperity of the American people." He also had a message to the Democrats who won the 2006 mid-term elections: "The United States has had many administrations; some who have left a positive legacy, and others that are neither remembered fondly by the American people nor by other nations. Now that you control an important branch in the US Government, you will also be held to account by the people and by history." |
Why do we need to cite four different references for the summary of the letter? Can't we just cite the text of the letter itself? Vir4030 17:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Ufwuct, I sincerely apologize for not including an edit summary for my wholesale revision of the bit about the letter under US-Iran Relations. I should have. I also made that edit while I was not logged into my account, so it showed up under my IP address. That was a mistake also. I obviously described it above here in the talk page, but you wouldn't know that just from the revision history, especially with not being logged in for the edit, but signing my talk page comments appropriately.
My problem with the way it is now is that, as pointed out by the editor above, it can appear biased because of the parts of the letter that are described in the article. I feel that the best way to handle this is to not go into any specific parts of the letter in the article. This way, people can just read the letter for themselves if they want to see each point that Ahmadinejad made.
You wrote some good stuff, though, in the main article when you replaced my summary. I'm going to make the edits to your text, keeping these pieces, but removing the parts specifically discussing the letter. As you can see above, I tried to write something that would treat each section of the letter fairly, but it became way too long for an article about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
I will leave an edit summary this time, pointing to this section of the talk page. I hope that you consider my edits to be fair. Thanks! Vir4030 19:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't speak Persian, so I won't label it vandalism, but this was a good catch. Without any translation, Persian sources shouldn't count as sources on en.wikipedia.org. Thanks. Ufwuct 04:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The text currently seems to imply that Ahmadinejad has a veto on the UNSC; As best as I can tell, he does not.
Can someone either correct the text or otherwise enlighten me?
update-- you know, I just checked the text again, and it flatly doesn't make sense. It refers to "the same interview," although no interview has been mentioned in that section. HELP!!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.199.29.178 ( talk • contribs) 21:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
It is not clear that who is his father because he has told in an interview with the Mehr news agency that his father has been died in 1992 but an intensive news and reports of his father's death in 2006 has been reported recently! you can find some alternative about this paradox at this address [1] in persian.
Since Iran supports Hezbollah and other terrorist groups, and Amhdinejad has denied supporting terrorism, why is this omitted? Decato 21:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I can quote any number of sources: NY Times,Fox News, BBC etc. Any objections if I put this in the article? Decato 10:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this is mentioned in the article under United States-Iran relations: "In the letter, he also claims that Iran condemns all terrorism, though many in the United States consider Iran to be the world's leading state supporter of terrorism." Then there are three cites. This is the section talking about the letter he sent last week to the American People where he denied supporting terrorism. It looks like these same three sources are also cited in the Iran article where it says: "Today Iran is regarded by the US to be the world's leading state supporter of terrorism." There is also a rather large article on United States-Iran relations where this information is presented. I'm not sure it's appropriate to have a whole section on the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad page about Iran's support of terrorism, but I think it would fit on either of the other two pages. Vir4030 15:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
so why are you breaking your own rule? Yeah what they do on the surface is one thing, dont be so simplistic in observing global politics. read history of Palestine and see what the British Did. So No one, absolutly no one (no one) in the USA supports the IRA, i'll take your word for it.-- Halaqah 23:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The question when I started this thread was Iran's President support of terrorists groups. Not Britain, not U.S. Most of the world that have access to unbiased news sources may criticize the U.S but no rational personal can say they support terroirsm. As Iran has said Israel should be wiped off the map they do. 71.233.211.201 01:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
listen can the convo now, okay this is wikipedia add something constructive and move on. didnt the us wipe vietnam off the face of the earth, didnt they wipe iraq off the face of the earth? didnt the wipe Japan off the face of the Earth? So what if he wants to do that with Israel, they are enemies. I am sure Israel would love to "wipe them out 2"--gee wiz. Why is it such a big deal? or cant u say anything bad against good old israel? the issue is about balance, world view and POV, what you think is an opinion "no rational person", go and read the def of terrorism and then go and c what most of the non-align newspapers are saying. again this is wikipedia and it rep a world view not an american view of the world. how many times did John Pilger say the US supported/s IRA terrorism. "no rational person" U must be God speaking.-- Halaqah 02:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
"More terrorists are given training and sanctuary in the United States than anywhere on earth. They include mass murderers, torturers, former and future tyrants and assorted international criminals. This is virtually unknown to the American public, thanks to the freest media on earth."[4]- John Pilger
cordial relationship? UK and US or G Bush and T Blair? American been killing British troops and they dont even go to trial, cordial?-- Halaqah 02:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The Arab/Muslim world as a whole considers the US to be a sponsor of terrorism. If the 1986 verdict from the international court of justice is of any relevance, the world considers the US to sponsor terrorists. Opinions on the issue may diverge, but history and evidence shows that the US can more verifiably be labelled as supporting terror. Don't get me wrong, conservatives like Mahmoud are not the best thing for Iran but there is a blatant double standard around here that needs to be denouced and if possible, stopped. Lixy 11:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not clear that who is his father because he has told in an interview with the Mehr news agency that his father has been died in 1992 but an intensive news and reports of his father's death in 2006 has been reported recently! you can find some alternative about this paradox at this address [2] in persian.
I cleaned up a lot of citations on the page. If someone could help with the Cabinet section, that would be great. Also, we still need someone to verify the Farsi links -- I've had no luck finding anyone. If anyone has any Farsi-reading friends they could recruit, that would be fantastic. Vir4030 18:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or is there no categories here? Khodavand 04:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Despite the fact that I generally disagree with its existence, with David Duke invited to speak at a conference in Iran questioning the Holocaust I'm beginning to think that the usage of Category:Anti-Semitic people on this article might indeed be warranted. ( → Netscott) 04:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
(outdenting) That argument may be a little disingenuous, Francis, as most people denying the Holocaust do so in spec ific reference to the Jews. -- Avi 12:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
We've been through this all before. There is consensus that MA is an anti-zionist. There is no consensus that he is anti-semitic, nor is there a consensus that anti-zionism automatically means anti-semitism. The last time we had the discussion, we did get consensus to include the page in the "antisemitism" category, and that is what the page is like now. I doubt that we will get consensus for "Anti-Semitic People" unless MA comes straight out and says "I hate the Jews". The other thing is that this will all be more clear once he's dead and we're able to review his life as a whole. At that point, I think it will be much easier to label him anti-semitic if all of his acts collectively warrant it. In the meantime, we have to follow WP:BOLP, which says that we can't label him an anti-semite unless there's clear-cut evidence, which naturally he's not going to provide, whether he is or not. So it seems like something we're just going to have to live with. Vir4030 19:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Please, the man is a virulent anti-Semite and Jew-hater who would give Hezbollah nukes to wipe every single inhabitant of Israel if he was able to. I've seen people calling G.W. Bush Hitler again and again, and those very same people ignore the horrifying threat that this man poses. Are we back in 1933 when the world didn't give a damn? I'd like to ask all of you what you would say when Ahmadinejad finally is able to make an attempt at pushing all the Jews into the ocean. Would that satisfy any lingering doubts as to whether this zealot is a Jew-hater or not? Let's not try to engage in whitewashing here. It's indefensible. metaspheres 10:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
No, but calling for it to be "wiped off the map" certainly is.
Phil Murray
72.16.201.2 18:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that this is the point of the discussion. In Western thought there is a separation between Religion and State. Yet, Israel itself calls anyone that criticizes their practices as anti-semitic. Now, whatever our POV towards Ahmadinejad is, his arguement is politically motivated towards a STATE, rather than racially towards the good Jewish community.
70.55.238.80 18:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, I don't see how an individual denying the Holocaust makes him an anti-semite. I would not label an individual who denied 9/11 or the attacks on Pearl Harbor, anti-American. Just delusional. Indeed, Mr. Ahmadinejad has a warped sense of history but that, in of itself, doesn't make him hateful. And, in all fairness, I believe Mr. Ahmadinejad has said repeatedly he does not hate Jews. I think it was in the Mike Wallace interview. Winter Light 02:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I think such a horrendous denial of the holocaust is fundamentally anti-semitic whether he hates individual Jews or not.
I also think that denying the attacks of 9/11 is fundamentally anti-American because it presupposes that American is so corrupt that it would fabricate an attack on itself. Such a degree of corruption as this describes would be so profound as to impugne our national character to a degree that is bigoted and therefore anti-American.
Phil
72.16.201.2 18:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
"I love the jews." -- Mahmoud Ahmadenijad
There is a clear seperation here.... not only is the "Zionist regime" not exclusive to only Jews (that would be racist apartheid), but not ALL Jews live in "Israel", support "Israel", or even have anything to do with it. Sarastro777 17:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I love chicken, but that is a very particular kind of love if you think about it. If the Iranian president 'loves Jews', what kind of love is he talking about?
Phil Murray
72.16.201.2 19:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
And what does this have to do with the legitimacy of Almadenijad wanting to "wipe Israel off the map"...?
72.16.201.2 19:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for bringing this matter up again, but the following may be of interest. Curiously, the Bible has almost the very lines which the President of Iran used with reference to "Wiping Israel off the Map". It is Psalm 83. I am sure the President of Iran is not a believer of the Bible, nor probably has an interest in the Bible, but it is a curious coincidence that what the Iranian President is proposing had been written many thousands of years ago by Asaph, a prophet, probably under the great King David of Israel. Here is the full text: GlenninBerlin
Psalm 83
0: A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. 1: O God, do not keep silence; do not hold thy peace or be still, O God! 2: For lo, thy enemies are in tumult; those who hate thee have raised their heads. 3: They lay crafty plans against thy people; they consult together against thy protected ones. 4: They say, "Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more!" 5: Yea, they conspire with one accord; against thee they make a covenant -- 6: the tents of Edom and the Ish'maelites, Moab and the Hagrites, 7: Gebal and Ammon and Am'alek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; 8: Assyria also has joined them; they are the strong arm of the children of Lot. [Selah] 9: Do to them as thou didst to Mid'ian, as to Sis'era and Jabin at the river Kishon, 10: who were destroyed at En-dor, who became dung for the ground. 11: Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmun'na, 12: who said, "Let us take possession for ourselves of the pastures of God." 13: O my God, make them like whirling dust, like chaff before the wind. 14: As fire consumes the forest, as the flame sets the mountains ablaze, 15: so do thou pursue them with thy tempest and terrify them with thy hurricane! 16: Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O LORD. 17: Let them be put to shame and dismayed for ever; let them perish in disgrace. 18: Let them know that thou alone, whose name is the LORD, art the Most High over all the earth. |
Wrong, Glenn, it places Mr. Ahmadinejad in a long line of people who have been unverifyably claimed to have wished Israel "wiped off the map". Your Bible quote was in fact written by the Israelites themselves. MeteorMaker 15:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the misleading phrase "When asked point-blank by 60 Minutes's Mike Wallace, Ahmadinejad made no denial of the statement". It sounds like he said, "Well, Mike, I can't deny that", while in reality the question was interjected in a discussion about Iran's nuclear ambitions, put on hold by Mr Ahmadinejad and never brought up again by the interviewer (full transcript here: [4]). MeteorMaker 16:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I also removed the line "in [the interview, he] suggested that Israel should be relocated to Europe", since, according to the transcript, he did not, only raised the question why the Palestinians should pay for crimes committed on another continent. MeteorMaker 16:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
"He was widely condemned for saying that Israel "must be wiped off the map"
Accurate: He was widely condemned for reportedly saying that Israel "must be wiped off the map" A few paragraphs down the page the reader is told that some of the translations to english are disputed. Cant have it both ways.
"According to widely published translations, he agreed with a statement he attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini that the "occupying regime" had to be removed, and referred to it as a "disgraceful stain [on] the Islamic world" that must be "wiped off the map" Weaselworded. The only translation linked to (is this the widely published translation?) has him saying that Khomeinis original statement contained wisdom. Leaving aside the entire meaning of az safheh - ye ruzgar the above paragraph cleverly attributes the origin of statement to Ahmadinejad. A direct quote would be more useful, and accurate. Accurate?: Nazila Fathi translation: "Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement." It also might be worth mentioning that Ahmadinejad is often attributed with a double misquote: "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth"
"The translation of his statement has been disputed". Which translation is disputed? The MEMRI one? Fathi's? Coles? Who disputes the translation? Bronner claims knowledge of 'official translations'and a description on the .ir website; this one?. As of today this is the only text of the speech at the official site [7]. Currently not linked to. Bronner doesnt bother to give any links either. Why is his account so heavily relied on?
Finally, article claims the speech was given on 10/23, the actual date was 10/26. Funny how a basic detail like the speech date is a nonissue, but ensuring that the waters are muddy on the quote isnt :)
Instead of direct translations every source seems to use their interpretation of what was said. Maybe including the exact words and a direct translation in the artical can help by giving a starting point to compare the various interpretive translations with.
The words used by Ahmadinejad were "Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." The direct translation from Farsi to English is: Imam (Imam "meaning Khomeini") ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).
Sahneh ruzgar (from scene of time) has historically been translated by western media as meaning "map" and it's possible this might have been confused with Ahmadinejad's similar sounding words "safheh-ye ruzgar"? Wayne 07:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The article should mention that it is not only the "wiped off the map" aspect that is disputed, but also that the words refer to the "regime occupying Jerusalem" which can be taken to mean he is opposed to the occupation of Jerusalem, a city holy to Muslims, as opposed to being opposed to the existence of Israel. I also agree with the person above that the word "reportedly" should be used to qualify the inaccurate or at least disputed characterization of his comments. Shnng 20:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
You do not make an attempt to refute the notion that people who read about the conference can decide for themselves if "Holocaust Denial" describes it. While I praise your ability to find no more than 15 references that also describe it as a Holocaust Denial Conference, they are alike, and not necessarily neutral just because they are references. Have you considered that the people who set up the conferences did not describe it as a "Holocaust Denial" conference, and that some attendees are not Holocaust deniers? Some sources also mention this; I suspect that the description as a Holocaust Denial conference may simply be the opinion of those who authored the reports.
In any case, it does reflect a POV to state it as a Holocaust Denial conference in that way. If it is so obvious, people should be able to simply click and read the article about the conference, which I believe is convincing enough, and has an excellent quote-based approach. Again, I see where you are coming from, as the conference had an unbelievable amount of Holocaust Deniers at it. However, it doesn't seem right to have a POV-ish statement here, and it is not necessary anyway, since people can read about hte conference.
Perhaps, a more neutral statement can be be afforded, representing that while the creators of the conference purport it as being neutral, numerous sources have concluded that it was made to promote Holocaust Denial. Or a similar statement. While I am glad that you did better than "let's call a spade a spade", I don't feel you addressed the fundamental issue I had with the wording. Why are you so adamant about using that description here anyway? Let people decide based off of the conference page. The Behnam 19:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The sentence in the Holocaust denial and accusations of antisemitism section is incorrect. It says that Ahmadinejad "hosted" the conference. I have checked numerous sources and found that most of them, while talking about the conference and even quoting Ahmadinejad, do not say that he hosted the conference. In fact, several of them say that he "called for" or "initiated" the conference, or that the conference was called "at the behest of" Ahmadinejad. Once source even says that it was "inspired by" him. UPI said that the conference was organized by the Iranian Institute for Political and International Studies, which is overseen by the Iranian Foreign Ministry.
Additionally, it's not our place to call this conference a "Holocaust Denial" conference in the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad article. This information should at least be in the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust page, which it's not.
Because of this, I am removing the sentence from the article. I have added the quotes from Ahmadinejad to the previous section, "Anti-Israel Statements". If we can find a dated source showing when and how he called for this conference, I would invite editors to add this information to the "Holocaust denial and accusations of antisemitism" section. Vir4030 21:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I deny that I'm whitewashing anything, I just want to get the article right. For some reason you seem really keen to get the Holocaust Denial Conference phrase in there, which I don't really understand. International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust doesn't call it that. I also looked through the fifteen sources cited for this phrase, and only two of them actually use the phrase "Holocaust Denial" to describe the conference, and both of those in jest. The LA Times article is an editorial which says "What's the perfect way to top off a Holocaust denial conference featuring input from the likes of such scholars as former KKK Grand Wizard David Duke? Why, calling for Israel's obliteration, of course." The Independent calls it this, in the title of the article, "Revisionist fringe gathers for Iran's Holocaust denial jamboree." All of the other references to "Holocaust Denial" in the articles refer to it being illegal in the west, and not to the conference itself.
So, I removed this specific phrase from this sentence, and kept the rest. I found a CNN article which discusses the opening of the conference, mentions the condemnation, and mentions Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I still think there is a bit of original research in saying that he organized it, especially since the CNN article I found [11] which is dated January 15, 2006, when the conference was originally scheduled, doesn't state that MA actually organized it. I'd like to find an article around this time tying Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to the call to organize this conferenc, but I haven't yet. (I distinctly remember reading this when it happened, though... but again, that's why I say there's a little bit of original research here. I didn't want to remove the sentence altogether, though, because I don't want to be accused of whitewashing again. I do believe that he organized the conference, and I definitely remember reading that, but I cannot find the source at the moment.
Maybe someone could lend a hand with this? Vir4030 15:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Every single source there lists it as being either a Holocaust denial conference, or a conference for Holocaust deniers. I'm tired of mincing words about this. The denial of the Holocaust only started a few decades after the Holocaust, but the denial of Holocaust denial seems to happen simultaneously with the act. Must be our fast-paced world. Jayjg (talk) 17:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
These are all reliable sources, none are used in jest, and the ones that don't say it is a "Holocaust denial" conference describe it as a "meeting of Holocaust deniers", or various other similar phrases. I've retained your inclusion of Iran's denial of its denial, and re-worded to account for NPOV, but keep in mind it is rather absurd to have Iran denying it was hosting a Holocaust denial conference unless there were persistent allegations insisting it was doing just that. Also, please keep in mind that a contentious article like this always needs more references, not fewer; that's because various whitewashers keep showing up and trying to claim that Ahmadinejad never said what he said, or that it was only "a few" sources that said something, or only "Western" sources, or that the facts are not "well-cited". Any attempts to remove sources on spurious grounds (e.g. they are "extra") will be reverted out of hand. I've been down this road far too long with this article, and I know what is required to keep even the simplest fact that might be seen as mildly negative in it. Finally, the reason for the wording "approving the notion" is precisely to appease the whitewashers, who keep insisting "oh, he was just echoing the words of Khomeini". Yes, you and I both know it's nonsense, but regardless, I've kept it there to avoid the inevitable insertion of Khomeini in the lead, as if anyone really cares that Ahmadinejad blamed Khomeini for the idea. Not that it stops people from repeatedly inserting it anyway, but it's still an attempt to adhere to NPOV regardless of the inevitable POV-pushing. Jayjg (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate your give and take as well, and your reasonable tone. Regarding the source, you're right in a sense, they don't all use the exact phrase "Holocaust denial conference". However, they do use phrases like Tehran's gathering of Holocaust deniers, The conference for Holocaust deniers, meeting of holocaust deniers, meeting of Holocaust deniers in Iran, Holocaust deniers' meeting, meeting of Holocaust deniers in Iran, Holocaust deniers gather in Iran for 'scientific' conference, Iran's Holocaust denial jamboree, Tehran conference denying the existence of the Holocaust, etc. This is why I find analyses like The Behnam's hairsplitting at best, disingenuous at worst, and in addition, violations of WP:V - "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Also, note that even though the phrases themselves are quoted, The Behnam immediately dismisses any link he considers to be "dead" or "requiring registration, so inconclusive" - do you see now why more sources are always required? Also, please note, we don't say it is a Holocaust denial conference, merely that it is widely described as that or as a meeting of Holocaust deniers. If I find even more sources referring to it in some way as a "Holocaust denial conference" or "meeting of Holocaust deniers", will that be enough? Or will there never be enough sources stating this before it becomes "widely described" in that way? Jayjg (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I find it unpleasant that you did not respond to me back when I posted. I apologize if you found my analysis "hairsplitting" or "disingenuous". I made it as only secondary, since I really wanted to address the necessity of this description based upon your comments and mine. However, you failed to respond, so I suppose it didn't work. I am not really sure how it ultimately differed from Vir4030's analysis. But thanks, for responding now, though I find your manner somewhat impolite. Truly, I think that it is best to not include the phrase, or at least not in the way it was back when I had originally posted. The current version seems more appropriate, though I do not know if you should say "widely described" for specific phrases that may not be the actual description. Also, I don't really dismiss the registration link, I said "inconclusive" because I simply could not reach a conclusion regarding its use of the phrase. I am sorry if this seemed a dismissal; I honestly did not intend to throw it out. I hope you can actually respond to the necessity-based arguments I made above, and I, again, hope to hear from you. Just out of curiosity, why are you very particular about using the phrase? I also do not get it. Thanks again! The Behnam 07:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
2 rules on wikipedia, The conference was not called HOlocaust denial, it was an academic debate about the facts surrounding the Holocaust, which is illegal in some countries to have this discussion but not in Iran. Many Holocaust supporters where there, (we cannot debate if it was a meeting of Holocaust deniers unless you went through the list of guest) but we can write in Holocaust denial conference against the facts and its gets passed as fact. If you tell a lie on the millionth time it doesnt become truth (by Darwin or any other process), it stays a lie, if infactual material is duplicated 1 million times it doesnt become correct by virtue of volume.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why this is here. Isn't the Controversies surrounding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad article the correct location for these sort of assertions? The Behnam 19:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I noticed a very POV link in the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad box at the bottom of the page. There are several links, such as Missive to George Bush and Israel. The objectionable link is entitled Kingpin and links to Ali Khamenei. I believe this to be a blatant POV, casting Ali Khamenei as a crime boss and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a member of a criminal gang. This may be the opinion of some, but it is hardly encyclopedic. The Behnam 22:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the template from the page until somebody NPOV-izes the template itself. See Template: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad if you are interested in helping. The Behnam 01:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
So... any of u guys see the article lately? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.239.202.2 ( talk) 03:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC).
When he says that instead of Palestine a territory in either Europe (germany) or the U.S. should be given to Israelis. Why put them with the Palestinians? Were arabs responsible for the Holocaust? Let the germans deal with their own fuck ups (it was 90% of them who supported Hitler anyway). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.124.121.29 ( talk) 18:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC).
Ahmadinejad is a very controversial figure, he's been in the news lately, and it's obviously drawing vandals. For example, User:82.82.168.199 (aka htlrlovr666) recently redirected this page to God... inexcusable, on every level. Who knows what they'll think of next. Just protect it so this crap can't happen. - Scharb 23:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Per the tag on the article, I have done some expansion of the lead into the article, summarising more of the controversies surrounding Ahmadinejad. The biggest thing that's in the article that seems to me to be missing in the lead is a summary of Ahmadinejad's domestic policy, so that might be a direction to go to get the lead up to standard. Heimstern Läufer 05:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles shouldn't have little quote farms at the bottom. Random quotes go in Wikiquote, the project specifically set up for that. Jayjg (talk) 18:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the POV tag from the top. If you put it back in, please state why so we can correct the offending text. Vir4030 20:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The section that presents the student protest should be removed IMHO. It doesn't belong here and should be made into a separate article. The number of student protests against Bush or Blair are orders of magnitude more than this one (in size and frequency) but obviously do not belong on their biographies. If anybody sees any reasons why it should stay, let me know. Lixy 16:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
The statement is already discussed in the body of this article, it is a pov and not a nuetral one to add it to the first few lines of his statement. Can we add what the pope said to the first lines of his article-- NO! Worldview and NPOV are what is important, I dont think his statements are that important, most peopel in Africa are not intrested in that, Others are concerned about different things, so it doesnt belong in his intro. If belongs in the critism section. He has done too many things to focus on that it is not notible only as a non-Worldview.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I dont like your conduct, lets start there. I watched the news and on my news, MY NEWs, it doesnt even come on, it is not a WOrld View. Do you understand that 6 billion people live on this planet? Why is it in the intro? You dont put that content in an intro. This is your Political view which takes centre stage. show me a bio page where you put one single statement on his front page. Again my media didnt focus on it.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
If i wanted to white wash it , which is a poor claim, i wouldn’t want it in the article? I don’t know him but i know he has done a lot of things, good and bad. But his intro shouldn’t be out weighted just because he is "anti Israel" You dont get it do you? It reminds me of the defenders of South Africa. pushing a POV, this is the danger here so truth fairness is blinded. It is a unbalanced viewpoint. removing sympathy. show balance discuss it all you want in the critics section.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I dont care, Slavery was 300 years old before they decided to stop it, consensus on wrong doesnt become right. the discussion should focus on the merit of the claim not those who have a bone to pick with this man. Now i have no problem with you wanting to add this, but in the correct place. balance and fairness!-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 13:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I searched my news and i didn’t find it, It didn’t appear in any news i read, the mistake you are making is 6 billion people live on this planet, yet because of political power some news comes up before other news, 3 million people die in the Congo and the news talks about some anti-Israel statement. this is the news you are discussing, Kenya is starving and CNN is on and on about this issue, our news isnt! As i said slavery was wrong and it took 300 years to stop it, agreement among the choir is not a good agreement. I wonder how many people from Iran are here. I haven’t deleted anything, i just suggest strongly it belongs in another section. like all bios of people, it is against the trend. into are for introduction not immediately discussing what some people dont like about him. I think what he said was very very stupid, i couldn’t believe he said it--thats my opinion. But he has done many other things, show balance, put the pros and cons in their respective places -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 13:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
What difference it makes if it was discussed already, does agreement among a choir make it right. I will contest this issue, the format of wikipedia shows that these discussion are always open.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 13:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
sorry if my edits clashed, i think it is fully discussed in the body why is it in the lead, it is in the lead and given undue dominance because it is a political POV, correct or not it is bias and unencyclopedic.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 14:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
professor may not be appropriate in the context of who he is.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 15:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view this man is alive and the article needs to be neutral not a political POV. The lead is an introduction to him in general, not a place for a discussion on his views on one single country, or two countries. The body of the article is the place for that content not his lead. who is he, when was he born, finish.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 15:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not significant in the world only in the WESt, in china it isnt an issue, in Africa with 800 million people it is not an issue, it isnt headlines in Brazil or the Caribbean, "significant is the issue" i am happy you have added this, but i disagree a single statement should be in the lead, the balance is disputed, the Pope made a serious statement against Muslims and that was not allowed in the lead, now why i have mentioned this is i believe balance must be reflected across the board and if it isnt good for one person it shouldnt be okay for him, he is at the disadvantage here, even if he is wrong he is being targeted because a western agenda is at work, not a balanced agenda. so it is a POV-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 15:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
it is not a world view and why was my notice removed, Israel and the USA are not the World. 2 countries, what is the population of these places, moreover the elements in the population that have these POV, vs the world. Tell me honestly had he said "Ethiopia/Somalia should be cleaned off the face of the Earth" would it make news? now population of EThiopia/Somalia is much greater, so why would it not be an issue? My further issue is has only used words, some governments have used actual bombs, some countries have invaded other countries but his words stick out. but that is different.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 15:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
304 million people are plenty enough for it to be relevant. Yes it would have been news if he had mentioned 'cleaning any country' off the map and it probably would have been added to his bio on wikipedia.
By the way, your other implied point that 'the world' represents some sort of unified opinion is absurd. 'The World' is extremely diverse and has very few, if any, unified opinions. There is no single 'world opinion'-- except as a fantasy stick used by some to beat up on the country or leader of their choice.
Phil Murray
72.16.201.2 19:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
also see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words for "he is most know for..."-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 16:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Al Jazeera describes him as calling the Holocaust a "myth"; is that another "Western source"? Jayjg (talk) 01:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
The information regarding President Ahmadinejad's recent letter to Americans has clearly been presented in a way that reflects the author's personal opinion. I would like to suggest an edition of this particular information, or else a re-entry.
68.103.160.85 05:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC) Dr. Caffrey
About Palestine, he argues "that the US administration has persistently provided blind and blanket support to" Israel, even while Israel "has driven millions of the inhabitants of Palestine out of their homes." About Iraq, claims that "hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed, maimed or displaced," that "terrorism in Iraq has grown exponentially," and that "nothing has been done to rebuild the ruins, to restore the infrastructure or to alleviate poverty." He says that he considers it extremely unlikely that the American People "consent to the billions of dollars of annual expenditure from your treasury for this military misadventure." Ahmadinejad also criticizes the "illegal and immoral behavior" of the US administration, not only throughout the world in Guantanamo and Abu-Ghraib, but also inside the United States. He states that "civil liberties in the United States are being increasingly curtailed" under the pretext of "the war on terror." He claims that "private phones are tapped, subjects are arbitrarily arrested, sometimes beaten in the streets, or even shot to death." Ultimately, he concludes that "the American people are not satisfied with this behavior and they showed their discontent in the recent elections." He recommends that "in a demonstration of respect for the American people and for humanity, the right of Palestinians to live in their own homeland should be recognized." He also suggests that it would "be more beneficial to bring the US officers and soldiers home, and to spend the astronomical US military expenditures in Iraq for the welfare and prosperity of the American people." He also had a message to the Democrats who won the 2006 mid-term elections: "The United States has had many administrations; some who have left a positive legacy, and others that are neither remembered fondly by the American people nor by other nations. Now that you control an important branch in the US Government, you will also be held to account by the people and by history." |
Why do we need to cite four different references for the summary of the letter? Can't we just cite the text of the letter itself? Vir4030 17:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Ufwuct, I sincerely apologize for not including an edit summary for my wholesale revision of the bit about the letter under US-Iran Relations. I should have. I also made that edit while I was not logged into my account, so it showed up under my IP address. That was a mistake also. I obviously described it above here in the talk page, but you wouldn't know that just from the revision history, especially with not being logged in for the edit, but signing my talk page comments appropriately.
My problem with the way it is now is that, as pointed out by the editor above, it can appear biased because of the parts of the letter that are described in the article. I feel that the best way to handle this is to not go into any specific parts of the letter in the article. This way, people can just read the letter for themselves if they want to see each point that Ahmadinejad made.
You wrote some good stuff, though, in the main article when you replaced my summary. I'm going to make the edits to your text, keeping these pieces, but removing the parts specifically discussing the letter. As you can see above, I tried to write something that would treat each section of the letter fairly, but it became way too long for an article about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
I will leave an edit summary this time, pointing to this section of the talk page. I hope that you consider my edits to be fair. Thanks! Vir4030 19:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't speak Persian, so I won't label it vandalism, but this was a good catch. Without any translation, Persian sources shouldn't count as sources on en.wikipedia.org. Thanks. Ufwuct 04:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The text currently seems to imply that Ahmadinejad has a veto on the UNSC; As best as I can tell, he does not.
Can someone either correct the text or otherwise enlighten me?
update-- you know, I just checked the text again, and it flatly doesn't make sense. It refers to "the same interview," although no interview has been mentioned in that section. HELP!!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.199.29.178 ( talk • contribs) 21:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
It is not clear that who is his father because he has told in an interview with the Mehr news agency that his father has been died in 1992 but an intensive news and reports of his father's death in 2006 has been reported recently! you can find some alternative about this paradox at this address [1] in persian.
Since Iran supports Hezbollah and other terrorist groups, and Amhdinejad has denied supporting terrorism, why is this omitted? Decato 21:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I can quote any number of sources: NY Times,Fox News, BBC etc. Any objections if I put this in the article? Decato 10:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this is mentioned in the article under United States-Iran relations: "In the letter, he also claims that Iran condemns all terrorism, though many in the United States consider Iran to be the world's leading state supporter of terrorism." Then there are three cites. This is the section talking about the letter he sent last week to the American People where he denied supporting terrorism. It looks like these same three sources are also cited in the Iran article where it says: "Today Iran is regarded by the US to be the world's leading state supporter of terrorism." There is also a rather large article on United States-Iran relations where this information is presented. I'm not sure it's appropriate to have a whole section on the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad page about Iran's support of terrorism, but I think it would fit on either of the other two pages. Vir4030 15:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
so why are you breaking your own rule? Yeah what they do on the surface is one thing, dont be so simplistic in observing global politics. read history of Palestine and see what the British Did. So No one, absolutly no one (no one) in the USA supports the IRA, i'll take your word for it.-- Halaqah 23:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The question when I started this thread was Iran's President support of terrorists groups. Not Britain, not U.S. Most of the world that have access to unbiased news sources may criticize the U.S but no rational personal can say they support terroirsm. As Iran has said Israel should be wiped off the map they do. 71.233.211.201 01:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
listen can the convo now, okay this is wikipedia add something constructive and move on. didnt the us wipe vietnam off the face of the earth, didnt they wipe iraq off the face of the earth? didnt the wipe Japan off the face of the Earth? So what if he wants to do that with Israel, they are enemies. I am sure Israel would love to "wipe them out 2"--gee wiz. Why is it such a big deal? or cant u say anything bad against good old israel? the issue is about balance, world view and POV, what you think is an opinion "no rational person", go and read the def of terrorism and then go and c what most of the non-align newspapers are saying. again this is wikipedia and it rep a world view not an american view of the world. how many times did John Pilger say the US supported/s IRA terrorism. "no rational person" U must be God speaking.-- Halaqah 02:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
"More terrorists are given training and sanctuary in the United States than anywhere on earth. They include mass murderers, torturers, former and future tyrants and assorted international criminals. This is virtually unknown to the American public, thanks to the freest media on earth."[4]- John Pilger
cordial relationship? UK and US or G Bush and T Blair? American been killing British troops and they dont even go to trial, cordial?-- Halaqah 02:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The Arab/Muslim world as a whole considers the US to be a sponsor of terrorism. If the 1986 verdict from the international court of justice is of any relevance, the world considers the US to sponsor terrorists. Opinions on the issue may diverge, but history and evidence shows that the US can more verifiably be labelled as supporting terror. Don't get me wrong, conservatives like Mahmoud are not the best thing for Iran but there is a blatant double standard around here that needs to be denouced and if possible, stopped. Lixy 11:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not clear that who is his father because he has told in an interview with the Mehr news agency that his father has been died in 1992 but an intensive news and reports of his father's death in 2006 has been reported recently! you can find some alternative about this paradox at this address [2] in persian.
I cleaned up a lot of citations on the page. If someone could help with the Cabinet section, that would be great. Also, we still need someone to verify the Farsi links -- I've had no luck finding anyone. If anyone has any Farsi-reading friends they could recruit, that would be fantastic. Vir4030 18:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or is there no categories here? Khodavand 04:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Despite the fact that I generally disagree with its existence, with David Duke invited to speak at a conference in Iran questioning the Holocaust I'm beginning to think that the usage of Category:Anti-Semitic people on this article might indeed be warranted. ( → Netscott) 04:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
(outdenting) That argument may be a little disingenuous, Francis, as most people denying the Holocaust do so in spec ific reference to the Jews. -- Avi 12:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
We've been through this all before. There is consensus that MA is an anti-zionist. There is no consensus that he is anti-semitic, nor is there a consensus that anti-zionism automatically means anti-semitism. The last time we had the discussion, we did get consensus to include the page in the "antisemitism" category, and that is what the page is like now. I doubt that we will get consensus for "Anti-Semitic People" unless MA comes straight out and says "I hate the Jews". The other thing is that this will all be more clear once he's dead and we're able to review his life as a whole. At that point, I think it will be much easier to label him anti-semitic if all of his acts collectively warrant it. In the meantime, we have to follow WP:BOLP, which says that we can't label him an anti-semite unless there's clear-cut evidence, which naturally he's not going to provide, whether he is or not. So it seems like something we're just going to have to live with. Vir4030 19:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Please, the man is a virulent anti-Semite and Jew-hater who would give Hezbollah nukes to wipe every single inhabitant of Israel if he was able to. I've seen people calling G.W. Bush Hitler again and again, and those very same people ignore the horrifying threat that this man poses. Are we back in 1933 when the world didn't give a damn? I'd like to ask all of you what you would say when Ahmadinejad finally is able to make an attempt at pushing all the Jews into the ocean. Would that satisfy any lingering doubts as to whether this zealot is a Jew-hater or not? Let's not try to engage in whitewashing here. It's indefensible. metaspheres 10:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
No, but calling for it to be "wiped off the map" certainly is.
Phil Murray
72.16.201.2 18:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that this is the point of the discussion. In Western thought there is a separation between Religion and State. Yet, Israel itself calls anyone that criticizes their practices as anti-semitic. Now, whatever our POV towards Ahmadinejad is, his arguement is politically motivated towards a STATE, rather than racially towards the good Jewish community.
70.55.238.80 18:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, I don't see how an individual denying the Holocaust makes him an anti-semite. I would not label an individual who denied 9/11 or the attacks on Pearl Harbor, anti-American. Just delusional. Indeed, Mr. Ahmadinejad has a warped sense of history but that, in of itself, doesn't make him hateful. And, in all fairness, I believe Mr. Ahmadinejad has said repeatedly he does not hate Jews. I think it was in the Mike Wallace interview. Winter Light 02:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I think such a horrendous denial of the holocaust is fundamentally anti-semitic whether he hates individual Jews or not.
I also think that denying the attacks of 9/11 is fundamentally anti-American because it presupposes that American is so corrupt that it would fabricate an attack on itself. Such a degree of corruption as this describes would be so profound as to impugne our national character to a degree that is bigoted and therefore anti-American.
Phil
72.16.201.2 18:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
"I love the jews." -- Mahmoud Ahmadenijad
There is a clear seperation here.... not only is the "Zionist regime" not exclusive to only Jews (that would be racist apartheid), but not ALL Jews live in "Israel", support "Israel", or even have anything to do with it. Sarastro777 17:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I love chicken, but that is a very particular kind of love if you think about it. If the Iranian president 'loves Jews', what kind of love is he talking about?
Phil Murray
72.16.201.2 19:00, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
And what does this have to do with the legitimacy of Almadenijad wanting to "wipe Israel off the map"...?
72.16.201.2 19:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for bringing this matter up again, but the following may be of interest. Curiously, the Bible has almost the very lines which the President of Iran used with reference to "Wiping Israel off the Map". It is Psalm 83. I am sure the President of Iran is not a believer of the Bible, nor probably has an interest in the Bible, but it is a curious coincidence that what the Iranian President is proposing had been written many thousands of years ago by Asaph, a prophet, probably under the great King David of Israel. Here is the full text: GlenninBerlin
Psalm 83
0: A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. 1: O God, do not keep silence; do not hold thy peace or be still, O God! 2: For lo, thy enemies are in tumult; those who hate thee have raised their heads. 3: They lay crafty plans against thy people; they consult together against thy protected ones. 4: They say, "Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more!" 5: Yea, they conspire with one accord; against thee they make a covenant -- 6: the tents of Edom and the Ish'maelites, Moab and the Hagrites, 7: Gebal and Ammon and Am'alek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; 8: Assyria also has joined them; they are the strong arm of the children of Lot. [Selah] 9: Do to them as thou didst to Mid'ian, as to Sis'era and Jabin at the river Kishon, 10: who were destroyed at En-dor, who became dung for the ground. 11: Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmun'na, 12: who said, "Let us take possession for ourselves of the pastures of God." 13: O my God, make them like whirling dust, like chaff before the wind. 14: As fire consumes the forest, as the flame sets the mountains ablaze, 15: so do thou pursue them with thy tempest and terrify them with thy hurricane! 16: Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O LORD. 17: Let them be put to shame and dismayed for ever; let them perish in disgrace. 18: Let them know that thou alone, whose name is the LORD, art the Most High over all the earth. |
Wrong, Glenn, it places Mr. Ahmadinejad in a long line of people who have been unverifyably claimed to have wished Israel "wiped off the map". Your Bible quote was in fact written by the Israelites themselves. MeteorMaker 15:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the misleading phrase "When asked point-blank by 60 Minutes's Mike Wallace, Ahmadinejad made no denial of the statement". It sounds like he said, "Well, Mike, I can't deny that", while in reality the question was interjected in a discussion about Iran's nuclear ambitions, put on hold by Mr Ahmadinejad and never brought up again by the interviewer (full transcript here: [4]). MeteorMaker 16:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I also removed the line "in [the interview, he] suggested that Israel should be relocated to Europe", since, according to the transcript, he did not, only raised the question why the Palestinians should pay for crimes committed on another continent. MeteorMaker 16:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
"He was widely condemned for saying that Israel "must be wiped off the map"
Accurate: He was widely condemned for reportedly saying that Israel "must be wiped off the map" A few paragraphs down the page the reader is told that some of the translations to english are disputed. Cant have it both ways.
"According to widely published translations, he agreed with a statement he attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini that the "occupying regime" had to be removed, and referred to it as a "disgraceful stain [on] the Islamic world" that must be "wiped off the map" Weaselworded. The only translation linked to (is this the widely published translation?) has him saying that Khomeinis original statement contained wisdom. Leaving aside the entire meaning of az safheh - ye ruzgar the above paragraph cleverly attributes the origin of statement to Ahmadinejad. A direct quote would be more useful, and accurate. Accurate?: Nazila Fathi translation: "Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement." It also might be worth mentioning that Ahmadinejad is often attributed with a double misquote: "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth"
"The translation of his statement has been disputed". Which translation is disputed? The MEMRI one? Fathi's? Coles? Who disputes the translation? Bronner claims knowledge of 'official translations'and a description on the .ir website; this one?. As of today this is the only text of the speech at the official site [7]. Currently not linked to. Bronner doesnt bother to give any links either. Why is his account so heavily relied on?
Finally, article claims the speech was given on 10/23, the actual date was 10/26. Funny how a basic detail like the speech date is a nonissue, but ensuring that the waters are muddy on the quote isnt :)
Instead of direct translations every source seems to use their interpretation of what was said. Maybe including the exact words and a direct translation in the artical can help by giving a starting point to compare the various interpretive translations with.
The words used by Ahmadinejad were "Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." The direct translation from Farsi to English is: Imam (Imam "meaning Khomeini") ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).
Sahneh ruzgar (from scene of time) has historically been translated by western media as meaning "map" and it's possible this might have been confused with Ahmadinejad's similar sounding words "safheh-ye ruzgar"? Wayne 07:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
The article should mention that it is not only the "wiped off the map" aspect that is disputed, but also that the words refer to the "regime occupying Jerusalem" which can be taken to mean he is opposed to the occupation of Jerusalem, a city holy to Muslims, as opposed to being opposed to the existence of Israel. I also agree with the person above that the word "reportedly" should be used to qualify the inaccurate or at least disputed characterization of his comments. Shnng 20:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
You do not make an attempt to refute the notion that people who read about the conference can decide for themselves if "Holocaust Denial" describes it. While I praise your ability to find no more than 15 references that also describe it as a Holocaust Denial Conference, they are alike, and not necessarily neutral just because they are references. Have you considered that the people who set up the conferences did not describe it as a "Holocaust Denial" conference, and that some attendees are not Holocaust deniers? Some sources also mention this; I suspect that the description as a Holocaust Denial conference may simply be the opinion of those who authored the reports.
In any case, it does reflect a POV to state it as a Holocaust Denial conference in that way. If it is so obvious, people should be able to simply click and read the article about the conference, which I believe is convincing enough, and has an excellent quote-based approach. Again, I see where you are coming from, as the conference had an unbelievable amount of Holocaust Deniers at it. However, it doesn't seem right to have a POV-ish statement here, and it is not necessary anyway, since people can read about hte conference.
Perhaps, a more neutral statement can be be afforded, representing that while the creators of the conference purport it as being neutral, numerous sources have concluded that it was made to promote Holocaust Denial. Or a similar statement. While I am glad that you did better than "let's call a spade a spade", I don't feel you addressed the fundamental issue I had with the wording. Why are you so adamant about using that description here anyway? Let people decide based off of the conference page. The Behnam 19:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The sentence in the Holocaust denial and accusations of antisemitism section is incorrect. It says that Ahmadinejad "hosted" the conference. I have checked numerous sources and found that most of them, while talking about the conference and even quoting Ahmadinejad, do not say that he hosted the conference. In fact, several of them say that he "called for" or "initiated" the conference, or that the conference was called "at the behest of" Ahmadinejad. Once source even says that it was "inspired by" him. UPI said that the conference was organized by the Iranian Institute for Political and International Studies, which is overseen by the Iranian Foreign Ministry.
Additionally, it's not our place to call this conference a "Holocaust Denial" conference in the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad article. This information should at least be in the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust page, which it's not.
Because of this, I am removing the sentence from the article. I have added the quotes from Ahmadinejad to the previous section, "Anti-Israel Statements". If we can find a dated source showing when and how he called for this conference, I would invite editors to add this information to the "Holocaust denial and accusations of antisemitism" section. Vir4030 21:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I deny that I'm whitewashing anything, I just want to get the article right. For some reason you seem really keen to get the Holocaust Denial Conference phrase in there, which I don't really understand. International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust doesn't call it that. I also looked through the fifteen sources cited for this phrase, and only two of them actually use the phrase "Holocaust Denial" to describe the conference, and both of those in jest. The LA Times article is an editorial which says "What's the perfect way to top off a Holocaust denial conference featuring input from the likes of such scholars as former KKK Grand Wizard David Duke? Why, calling for Israel's obliteration, of course." The Independent calls it this, in the title of the article, "Revisionist fringe gathers for Iran's Holocaust denial jamboree." All of the other references to "Holocaust Denial" in the articles refer to it being illegal in the west, and not to the conference itself.
So, I removed this specific phrase from this sentence, and kept the rest. I found a CNN article which discusses the opening of the conference, mentions the condemnation, and mentions Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I still think there is a bit of original research in saying that he organized it, especially since the CNN article I found [11] which is dated January 15, 2006, when the conference was originally scheduled, doesn't state that MA actually organized it. I'd like to find an article around this time tying Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to the call to organize this conferenc, but I haven't yet. (I distinctly remember reading this when it happened, though... but again, that's why I say there's a little bit of original research here. I didn't want to remove the sentence altogether, though, because I don't want to be accused of whitewashing again. I do believe that he organized the conference, and I definitely remember reading that, but I cannot find the source at the moment.
Maybe someone could lend a hand with this? Vir4030 15:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Every single source there lists it as being either a Holocaust denial conference, or a conference for Holocaust deniers. I'm tired of mincing words about this. The denial of the Holocaust only started a few decades after the Holocaust, but the denial of Holocaust denial seems to happen simultaneously with the act. Must be our fast-paced world. Jayjg (talk) 17:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
These are all reliable sources, none are used in jest, and the ones that don't say it is a "Holocaust denial" conference describe it as a "meeting of Holocaust deniers", or various other similar phrases. I've retained your inclusion of Iran's denial of its denial, and re-worded to account for NPOV, but keep in mind it is rather absurd to have Iran denying it was hosting a Holocaust denial conference unless there were persistent allegations insisting it was doing just that. Also, please keep in mind that a contentious article like this always needs more references, not fewer; that's because various whitewashers keep showing up and trying to claim that Ahmadinejad never said what he said, or that it was only "a few" sources that said something, or only "Western" sources, or that the facts are not "well-cited". Any attempts to remove sources on spurious grounds (e.g. they are "extra") will be reverted out of hand. I've been down this road far too long with this article, and I know what is required to keep even the simplest fact that might be seen as mildly negative in it. Finally, the reason for the wording "approving the notion" is precisely to appease the whitewashers, who keep insisting "oh, he was just echoing the words of Khomeini". Yes, you and I both know it's nonsense, but regardless, I've kept it there to avoid the inevitable insertion of Khomeini in the lead, as if anyone really cares that Ahmadinejad blamed Khomeini for the idea. Not that it stops people from repeatedly inserting it anyway, but it's still an attempt to adhere to NPOV regardless of the inevitable POV-pushing. Jayjg (talk) 18:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate your give and take as well, and your reasonable tone. Regarding the source, you're right in a sense, they don't all use the exact phrase "Holocaust denial conference". However, they do use phrases like Tehran's gathering of Holocaust deniers, The conference for Holocaust deniers, meeting of holocaust deniers, meeting of Holocaust deniers in Iran, Holocaust deniers' meeting, meeting of Holocaust deniers in Iran, Holocaust deniers gather in Iran for 'scientific' conference, Iran's Holocaust denial jamboree, Tehran conference denying the existence of the Holocaust, etc. This is why I find analyses like The Behnam's hairsplitting at best, disingenuous at worst, and in addition, violations of WP:V - "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Also, note that even though the phrases themselves are quoted, The Behnam immediately dismisses any link he considers to be "dead" or "requiring registration, so inconclusive" - do you see now why more sources are always required? Also, please note, we don't say it is a Holocaust denial conference, merely that it is widely described as that or as a meeting of Holocaust deniers. If I find even more sources referring to it in some way as a "Holocaust denial conference" or "meeting of Holocaust deniers", will that be enough? Or will there never be enough sources stating this before it becomes "widely described" in that way? Jayjg (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I find it unpleasant that you did not respond to me back when I posted. I apologize if you found my analysis "hairsplitting" or "disingenuous". I made it as only secondary, since I really wanted to address the necessity of this description based upon your comments and mine. However, you failed to respond, so I suppose it didn't work. I am not really sure how it ultimately differed from Vir4030's analysis. But thanks, for responding now, though I find your manner somewhat impolite. Truly, I think that it is best to not include the phrase, or at least not in the way it was back when I had originally posted. The current version seems more appropriate, though I do not know if you should say "widely described" for specific phrases that may not be the actual description. Also, I don't really dismiss the registration link, I said "inconclusive" because I simply could not reach a conclusion regarding its use of the phrase. I am sorry if this seemed a dismissal; I honestly did not intend to throw it out. I hope you can actually respond to the necessity-based arguments I made above, and I, again, hope to hear from you. Just out of curiosity, why are you very particular about using the phrase? I also do not get it. Thanks again! The Behnam 07:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
2 rules on wikipedia, The conference was not called HOlocaust denial, it was an academic debate about the facts surrounding the Holocaust, which is illegal in some countries to have this discussion but not in Iran. Many Holocaust supporters where there, (we cannot debate if it was a meeting of Holocaust deniers unless you went through the list of guest) but we can write in Holocaust denial conference against the facts and its gets passed as fact. If you tell a lie on the millionth time it doesnt become truth (by Darwin or any other process), it stays a lie, if infactual material is duplicated 1 million times it doesnt become correct by virtue of volume.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why this is here. Isn't the Controversies surrounding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad article the correct location for these sort of assertions? The Behnam 19:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I noticed a very POV link in the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad box at the bottom of the page. There are several links, such as Missive to George Bush and Israel. The objectionable link is entitled Kingpin and links to Ali Khamenei. I believe this to be a blatant POV, casting Ali Khamenei as a crime boss and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a member of a criminal gang. This may be the opinion of some, but it is hardly encyclopedic. The Behnam 22:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the template from the page until somebody NPOV-izes the template itself. See Template: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad if you are interested in helping. The Behnam 01:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
So... any of u guys see the article lately? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.239.202.2 ( talk) 03:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC).
When he says that instead of Palestine a territory in either Europe (germany) or the U.S. should be given to Israelis. Why put them with the Palestinians? Were arabs responsible for the Holocaust? Let the germans deal with their own fuck ups (it was 90% of them who supported Hitler anyway). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.124.121.29 ( talk) 18:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC).
Ahmadinejad is a very controversial figure, he's been in the news lately, and it's obviously drawing vandals. For example, User:82.82.168.199 (aka htlrlovr666) recently redirected this page to God... inexcusable, on every level. Who knows what they'll think of next. Just protect it so this crap can't happen. - Scharb 23:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Per the tag on the article, I have done some expansion of the lead into the article, summarising more of the controversies surrounding Ahmadinejad. The biggest thing that's in the article that seems to me to be missing in the lead is a summary of Ahmadinejad's domestic policy, so that might be a direction to go to get the lead up to standard. Heimstern Läufer 05:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles shouldn't have little quote farms at the bottom. Random quotes go in Wikiquote, the project specifically set up for that. Jayjg (talk) 18:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed the POV tag from the top. If you put it back in, please state why so we can correct the offending text. Vir4030 20:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The section that presents the student protest should be removed IMHO. It doesn't belong here and should be made into a separate article. The number of student protests against Bush or Blair are orders of magnitude more than this one (in size and frequency) but obviously do not belong on their biographies. If anybody sees any reasons why it should stay, let me know. Lixy 16:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
The statement is already discussed in the body of this article, it is a pov and not a nuetral one to add it to the first few lines of his statement. Can we add what the pope said to the first lines of his article-- NO! Worldview and NPOV are what is important, I dont think his statements are that important, most peopel in Africa are not intrested in that, Others are concerned about different things, so it doesnt belong in his intro. If belongs in the critism section. He has done too many things to focus on that it is not notible only as a non-Worldview.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I dont like your conduct, lets start there. I watched the news and on my news, MY NEWs, it doesnt even come on, it is not a WOrld View. Do you understand that 6 billion people live on this planet? Why is it in the intro? You dont put that content in an intro. This is your Political view which takes centre stage. show me a bio page where you put one single statement on his front page. Again my media didnt focus on it.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:54, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
If i wanted to white wash it , which is a poor claim, i wouldn’t want it in the article? I don’t know him but i know he has done a lot of things, good and bad. But his intro shouldn’t be out weighted just because he is "anti Israel" You dont get it do you? It reminds me of the defenders of South Africa. pushing a POV, this is the danger here so truth fairness is blinded. It is a unbalanced viewpoint. removing sympathy. show balance discuss it all you want in the critics section.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 12:58, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I dont care, Slavery was 300 years old before they decided to stop it, consensus on wrong doesnt become right. the discussion should focus on the merit of the claim not those who have a bone to pick with this man. Now i have no problem with you wanting to add this, but in the correct place. balance and fairness!-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 13:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I searched my news and i didn’t find it, It didn’t appear in any news i read, the mistake you are making is 6 billion people live on this planet, yet because of political power some news comes up before other news, 3 million people die in the Congo and the news talks about some anti-Israel statement. this is the news you are discussing, Kenya is starving and CNN is on and on about this issue, our news isnt! As i said slavery was wrong and it took 300 years to stop it, agreement among the choir is not a good agreement. I wonder how many people from Iran are here. I haven’t deleted anything, i just suggest strongly it belongs in another section. like all bios of people, it is against the trend. into are for introduction not immediately discussing what some people dont like about him. I think what he said was very very stupid, i couldn’t believe he said it--thats my opinion. But he has done many other things, show balance, put the pros and cons in their respective places -- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 13:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
What difference it makes if it was discussed already, does agreement among a choir make it right. I will contest this issue, the format of wikipedia shows that these discussion are always open.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 13:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
sorry if my edits clashed, i think it is fully discussed in the body why is it in the lead, it is in the lead and given undue dominance because it is a political POV, correct or not it is bias and unencyclopedic.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 14:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
professor may not be appropriate in the context of who he is.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 15:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view this man is alive and the article needs to be neutral not a political POV. The lead is an introduction to him in general, not a place for a discussion on his views on one single country, or two countries. The body of the article is the place for that content not his lead. who is he, when was he born, finish.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 15:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not significant in the world only in the WESt, in china it isnt an issue, in Africa with 800 million people it is not an issue, it isnt headlines in Brazil or the Caribbean, "significant is the issue" i am happy you have added this, but i disagree a single statement should be in the lead, the balance is disputed, the Pope made a serious statement against Muslims and that was not allowed in the lead, now why i have mentioned this is i believe balance must be reflected across the board and if it isnt good for one person it shouldnt be okay for him, he is at the disadvantage here, even if he is wrong he is being targeted because a western agenda is at work, not a balanced agenda. so it is a POV-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 15:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
it is not a world view and why was my notice removed, Israel and the USA are not the World. 2 countries, what is the population of these places, moreover the elements in the population that have these POV, vs the world. Tell me honestly had he said "Ethiopia/Somalia should be cleaned off the face of the Earth" would it make news? now population of EThiopia/Somalia is much greater, so why would it not be an issue? My further issue is has only used words, some governments have used actual bombs, some countries have invaded other countries but his words stick out. but that is different.-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 15:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
304 million people are plenty enough for it to be relevant. Yes it would have been news if he had mentioned 'cleaning any country' off the map and it probably would have been added to his bio on wikipedia.
By the way, your other implied point that 'the world' represents some sort of unified opinion is absurd. 'The World' is extremely diverse and has very few, if any, unified opinions. There is no single 'world opinion'-- except as a fantasy stick used by some to beat up on the country or leader of their choice.
Phil Murray
72.16.201.2 19:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
also see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words for "he is most know for..."-- HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 16:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Al Jazeera describes him as calling the Holocaust a "myth"; is that another "Western source"? Jayjg (talk) 01:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)