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In this article the sentence about Mahidevran's origin had been changed several times. Circassian or Albanian ? I badly need a reliable source to back either claim. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 06:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
She was an Albanian; her father, Abdullah Recai was a musician and her brother was Nakkashan Adem. In Albenian Gülbahar means Rosne Pravnere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.0.179 ( talk) 11:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
If the modifiers of this page can identify this reference, then please update. This woman could be Mahidevran or could also be Gulfem or the first unknown wife of Suleiman. "She was said to have been the most beautiful girl in the dynasty and out-stood in beauty in a land which was known for it. These princesses, were destined to be gifted (in other words sold) by their ruling fathers to their higher or equivalent ranking rulers, kings and grand Vazirs (ministers). As Mulkhurub Bahar Idarovna blossomed into an eye dazzling beauty, her father saw this as an opportunity to strengthen the political relationship between the Caucasus and Ottoman Dynasty. During the start of 15th century, the Ottoman dynasty was taking over the territories of its rivals more rapidly than before. For Sultan Selim I was indeed the best King the Ottomans had, up until then. This King (Sultan) did not have many successors left by 1511, for his only surviving son was Prince Sulieman (who later became Suleiman the Magnificent). Prince Idar took this as an opportunity to make a good relationship with their rapidly spending neighboring dynasty, as young Prince Sulieman was only a few year older (if not the same age) than his most beautiful daughter. Not hesitating for a second thought, he offered his beautiful daughter, as a gift, to the young prince." I got this text from this reference if anyone have an actual book name to cite then please update. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.203.190.128 ( talk) 20:25, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
@ Phso2 Hi, I am Worldandhistory. About the recently revived edit war on the Origins of Mahidevran, I would like to clear that I am not a descendant of Mahidevran, I just came across the Genealogy document and thought it was rather convincing one. However, if you feel otherwise, you could always simply revert the changes or add the "unreliable source" template with reasoning. Adding something as controversial as ""she was a slave"" as can be seen here would only draw unnecessary attention of the fans and/or may or may not be alleged descendants, as your content was more like a statement rather than a neutral point of view. This section is full of "possible" origin theories, so mentioning any ""possible theory"" is no violation of any principal. However, I added ""the most convincing theory"" was wrong I admit, therefore, I have changed that. An extra piece of information, in 15th century, the Tatars, Caucasians, Albanians, and Russians were all considered part of ""Circassia"". Worldandhistory ( talk) 18:40, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
-- Phso2 ( talk) 17:48, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Hi again, sorry I noticed now you added "suggests she was a cariye, thus of non-notable family" I will have to remove it because the source only called her Cariye and did not specifically says that she was of non-notable family. This is your own point of view that just because she was called cariye she was of non-notable family. Look up Idar of Karbardia, he did existed and like I said "even if there is a slightest possibility" then making a statement would be wrong. Just Skip that Cariye part as everyone knows even the princesses who were lawfully wedded to Sultans of Ottoman dynasty, Shah Jehans of Mughal emperors and Sheikhs of Arab, were all considered slave to their husbands. Hope you understand. Worldandhistory ( talk) 00:10, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
You did not answer my first point, no where in the article does it say she belonged to a noble family, the article is now free from any claims of her being scion, the article simply focuses on her origins. If you want you may mention an unnecessary word "slave" to the totally irrelevant section of "Origin and early life" but trust me you'll spent your whole life (and next one as well if you're a monk) reverting the changes made by those who have problem with this piece of word. If, however, you can get an admin to permanently block the page from any further editing you may do so. Best R. - Worldandhistory ( talk) 16:08, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Phso2, your provided sources does not particularly points at M's father. While every other converted slave might be called Abdullah, we can't simply consider every person with the name of Abdullah to be a slave, for example, you say "Abdullah as a generic name for slave converts" then again I don't suppose that Şehzade Abdullah was a slave, this contradicts your claim that evry man with this name was a slave. I shall wait for your response until few days then revert your changes, if you are unable to prove that this "Abdullah" was indeed a slave and not a free person, in which case, M would have been a "gifted wife" (married to S not legally but rather tough Nikah 'urfi). You are not helping in maintaining the neutrality, rather imposing your opinions extracted from your sources. I was wrong I admitted that and removed the contents sourced from the blog. I even request the deletion of dubious page of her alleged father but you are not admitting that you may be wrong here. Best. - Worldandhistory ( talk) 16:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Phso2: Two of your sources are at stake (Colin Iber's and Peirce's), please read page 136 of Colin's book, this gives definition of Slave in general term, so calling any member of Sultan's family a slave does not necessarily makes them a slave by origin, and P simply used a text from Alberi, P herself only called M a concubine. Concubine by definition is not a slave. You completely twisted the question and answered what I didn't ask. I asked you to provide a source calling M's father Abdullah a Slave. While "XXX son of Abdullah" maybe a son of a convert slave, you cannot say that Khalid son of Abdullah or Hussein son of Abdullah are also slaves. Likewise Abdullah Frères's children were not slaves by nature. The name Abdullah may be used as a generic patronymic (father's name) for slave converts but this name was and is very common for any royal family as well as a common family in any Islamic dynasty. - Worldandhistory ( talk) 18:40, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Wow, it seems you desperately did some personal research, you have all the time in the world don't you? :P Well, like I said, all these efforts prove nothing but if you are convinced read may latest comments on my last reply; "you may add the word slave to Origins if you are still convinced but must also use the term "possibly" along with it to maintain a NPOV." You did not saw that did you? And with all this research you are only proving yourself wrong because NONE OF YOUR SOURCES say that M was a Muslim Convert, rather, they say, Mahidevran, daughter of Abdullah. All these authors could've have used this phrase simply because they didn't know what the real father's name was, like I said "this name was and is very common for any royal family as well as a common family in any Islamic dynasty." Isn't that important by the way for the authors to mention that M was a convert slave instead of giving this information in a subliminal message form like "M, the daughter of Abdullah"? I guess the authors were inspired by Illuminatis ;) (just a joke, no offense) Anyway, I can't argue with you, I can only simply ask for an admin's attention to all of your WP:OR. Best :) - Worldandhistory ( talk) 15:18, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Mahidevran Sultan in Türkçe Bilgi = tr:Meahidevran Sultan in Turkish Wikipedia. Takabeg ( talk) 09:10, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Someone needs to check the pronunciation: stress and vowel length. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.161.124.138 ( talk) 14:13, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
It's wondering me about the Turks...
SO many false claimed about Mahidevran and a daughter of Süleyman , who called Raziye
Mahidevran had only one son, it was Mustafa.
Raziye was born 1519, as daughter of süleyman and fülane hatun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.248.138.199 ( talk) 06:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
I removed a painting of Rosne Pranvere from the article. The source is "BBC your paintings". The original caption is only "sultana" and there is no reference to Rosne Pranvere. I called both the contributor and the gallery to show any link to Rosne and so far I get none. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 08:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
The page Mahidevran Sultan should be moved to Mahidevran Gülbahar Hatun because Mahidevran was never a concubine or a Haseki Sultan and Hürrem Sultan was the first Haseki Sultan.-- Retrieverlove 1:09, 22 June 2014
According to Leslie P. Peirce, prior to the creation of the title Haseki Sultan for Hürrem Sultan, all the Ottoman consorts carried an alternative royal title, "Hatun".But Leslie P. Peirce also said that during 16th century(Suleiman's reign) the title Hatun for a valide,princesses and Sultan's consorts were changed by Sultan(it's called Sultana in the harem to distinguish between male and female). [8] However it is clear,that Mahidevran Sultan also carried the title Sultan as she was the first main chief consort (Baş Kadın). Moreover, she is referred to as "Mahidevran Sultan" in popular history books, TV series and touristic literature. [9][10]
Though Mahidevran Sultan may not have been a Haseki, she was the mother of Şehzade Mustafa, the eldest surviving son of the reigning Sultan and the crown prince of the imperial throne. Hence it can be asserted that she held an very influential position in Suleiman's harem: according to Ottoman traditions, she was Suleiman's Chi Baş Kadın. She was in the second rank after Hafsa Sultan(Valide Sultan) in the harem according to the Ottoman tradition.[3][11][12] While Hürrem became Suleiman's new favorite and later his legal wife, Mahidevran Sultan retained the status of the crowned mother of Suleiman's eldest son,[13] and became Suleiman's "first wife". Khondoker Jobair ( talk) 06:10, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
I think you are mistaken my friend,,Mahidevran Sultan was the first chief consort and the proud mother Sehzade mustafa,the most potential heir apparent of the throne for succesion of his father.And you are saying that she was not even a concubine??? That's very funny!!! Pathetic joke!! Khondoker Jobair ( talk) 06:13, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Mahidevran and Suleiman had five children -- three sons and two daughters.
References
Teodora Maria Ungureanu Teodora Maria Ungureanu ( talk) 23:19, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Teodora Maria Ungureanu Teodora Maria Ungureanu ( talk) 23:20, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Why is she called Mahidevran Sultan in this article? Before Hürrem Sultan, every consort was called hatun. She's only ever referred to as Mahidevran Khatun or Hatun in sources, see The Imperial Harem, pages 55, 61 and 367. Letempsviendra ( talk) 19:30, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Phso 2 You are saying that Leslie P. Pierce told n his book that for the creation of the title Haseki Sultan for Hurrem all the other consorts carried an alternative title Hatun.But my freind you should also know that,Leslie P. Peirce also said that during 16th century(Suleiman's reign) the title Hatun for a valide,princesses and Sultan's consorts were changed by Sultan(it's called Sultana in the harem to distinguish between male and female). And Mahidevran was the proud mother of Sehzade Mustafa,who was the most potential and talented heir apparent to the throne.And Mahidevran was not like the other Consorts of Suleiman,like Gulfem or Fulane.After the death of the sons of other consorts by diseases She was the mother of only son of Suleiman the magnificent and according to the ottoman tradition sje was Suleiman's Bas kadin,which was the most powerful position for a Sultan's consort before creation and after abolition of the title Haseki Sultan.As Leslie P. Pierce said that during Suleiman's reign the title for Queen mother, Princesses and Sultan's chief consort changed to Sultan from Hatun.And other ordinary consorts of Sultan held the title Hatun.And Mahidevran Sultan was favorite and chief consort of Suleiman before hurrem,and she was the mother of crown prince of the ottoman empire. Dear Phso 2,I think i have made the issue clear which is about the royal woman "Mahidevran" and you shuould not have any doubt or confusion or Question regarding this subject. Thank you From Khondoker Jobair. Khondoker Jobair ( talk) 06:37, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Keivan, do you really have access to the proposed source? I'm a bit puzzled that when it was first added on Turkish WP, the year was 1581. (besides, you don't mention Turkish among the languages you speak)-- Phso2 ( talk) 10:22, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request to
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The Word Birinci Kadin means " First Lady" as in (respected) wife of reigning king, not "First Woman". Please correct that. She is known to be a legal wife before Hurrem Sultan, but not so popular since Hurrem Sultan was the first "slave" to become a legal wife, hence, only Hurrem's being a legal wife is so popular. 113.203.158.58 ( talk) 00:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I request a change of title, to revert it back to its original name (which was only "Mahidevran") and maintain its protected status. Why does she have sultan next to her name? The information given in this page reveals that despite being called addressed as a sultana she wasn't one, and before that edit came to be the page addressed her as hatun (and many others too [1] ), which is also a title she's been given in other sources. She was not a sultana, she was a Birinci Kadin , therefore if any "royal title" should be used to her name it should be that; this is highly misleading and causes conflict with Ottoman history. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 01:47, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I beg to differ, in many books (arts, literature whatever you may call) she has been known as Sultana. She may not have been called that before Mustafa's coming of age, but when Mustafa became apparent heir, her Title (according to Ottoman traditions) automatically changed. Also, a Sultana was a woman in Sultan's family, being a mother of heir apparent living in the Harem at the same time the title Haseki was used for Hurrem, it can be asserted that she was also called Sultana, due to the fact that in her time (when Hurrem came along) Sultana title was already started being used for royal consorts regardless if they were haseki or not, see example of Mahfiruz Hatice Sultan, who was niether haseki nor Valide. Give me one name of the mother of potential heir to the throne (like mustafa) who wasn't called Sultana after 1500. Depriving someone of their last name or title for your own satisfaction is NOT just, it's highly misleading and causes conflict with Ottoman history. Also, she became an important symbol of how ottoman consorts never had a permanent position in Harem and politics as it was only after Mahidevran with whom the Ottoman started respecting their royal consorts, it is obvious, that when Hurrem Sultan was given such elevation the same time the mother of heir apparent was alive and living in the Harem, that Mahidevran was also considered as Sultan's family member and hence the title. Also please keep the recent source in mind about an interview with her alleged descendant. If interviews can be cited in Wikipedia for every living or dead person, why there is so much debate in this one? I do NOT understand. Here are some sources (regardless of their nature) they contradicts the motion that she wasn't called Sultan. [2] [3] [4] [5] She has been known by this title since Nurbano's time. No need to change the title. [6] 113.203.150.188 ( talk) 02:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Popular culture and Ottoman court etiquette are two different things. Also, the rules are clear: no woman other than the sultan's own female blood relatives and main wife use the title of sultan [7]. The references you've cited present a clear inconsistency with defined Ottoman titles and therefore they are invalid. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 16:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
This is the point, whether she was a main wife or not. Whatever sources we can find, half of them supports the Hatun theory, the other half supports Sultan theory. Popular culture is defined from what had actually happened in the past, the existence of this woman wasn't thousand of years ago that we can assume the popular culture has adopted "myths". Also I would like to repeat a point I made earlier, the interview with her alleged descendant cannot be overlooked. Interviews are constantly being used in Wikipedia for every notable person, why neglect this one? If that is wrong, Wikipedia should never ever cite an interview source in any other article as well. Above all, her being mother of heir apparent is not a popular culture but a fact. While she was serving as the mother to heir apparent she was considered a Sultan's family member (Ottoman court etiquette), hence the title. 113.203.156.141 ( talk) 23:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
First of all, those references you've cited are: 1) popular culture based books 2) recent and based on art and theatrical depictions; as such, these references are unfounded and misinformed when it comes to Ottoman history. Therefore they can't be used. And for your information, she wasn't the mother, sister, aunt or main wife of the sultan: she wasn't a sultana, even when a theatre play calls her that. On the case of Roxelana, it was a nickname she was given that didn't elevate or lowered her status and wasn't a direct reflection of Ottoman culture but more of the influence she had on history. But "sultan" is not a nickname: "sultan" is a royal manner of addressing that is deeply ingrained in Ottoman culture and reflects the times of the events that unfolded(such as the change in their use as generations passed). "Sultan" had many meanings throughout history and did reflect the status and the way of interacting of the times; if we want to accurately depict history then, at last, she's a "hatun". One of the alledged theories points to her mother being addressed in that manner. In the times of Suleyman, not everyone could be addressed that way. The reason I call for a page title is to respect Ottoman customs and history, nothing more. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 05:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Also, let's not forget that many of those artistic/theatrical depictions are based on rumors and fictitious creations for the sake of entertainment. If you treat Ottoman history as merely entertainment, you're not doing your job to inform people. The title of this page has to be changed and needs to be protected from any form of cultural erasure. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 05:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Excuse me one more time. It is explicitly explained that the title "Haseki Sultan" was created when Hürrem married Suleyman. It is also stated that before "Haseki Sultan" all concubines used the title hatun. If "Haseki Sultan" was created solely for Hurrem when they legally married, breaking a 200 hundred tradition of not marrying, why should anyone assume that other concubines of the sultan would start using "sultan" if they didn't marry him? The change of titles was to differentiate a legal wife from a concubine/consort/unrecognized wife or however you want to call it. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 05:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
A few sources does claim she was a wife. Specially every Circassion origin theory. We cannot overlook them. Hurrem and Mahidevran were 2 main consorts. Please see meaning of "Birinci Kadin" in whatever Ottoman Dictionary you like. Birinci Kadin was used for wives only, Brinici Kadin was not used for concubines or ordinary consorts, Birinci Kadin meant First Wife/Senior Consort. Although Sultans didn't used to lawfully wed their wives, Birinci Kadins were considered and treated just like lawfully wedded wives. Even so, a Sultan was NOT allowed to have more than 4 Kadins at a time (Brinci Kadin, Baş Kadın or Sultan Kadin was the first ranking wife), but can have as much concubines as he liked. This tells how important and high ranking Birinci Kadins were (see any ottoman dictionary you like to see what Birinci Kadin means and what was their positions in early history of Ottoman.) [8] [9] Though Hurrem was more favored, Mahidevran was still a wife and mother of heir apparent. I think it is obvious that the exception would have been made at that time for a non-Haseki consort to be called a Sultan. Hatun is not a Title at all. Hatun is used for every other lady in Turkish and Persian language. Even lowest ranking maids of the Harem were called Hatun out of respect. If Sultana cannot be used for a "Birinci Kadin" then Hatun should also not be used. People have done a great job depicting fake ottoman culture. Please consider all sources available. Everyone is emphasizing on only one source for the subjected woman that is of Leslie P. Peirce's and simply ignoring those sources/references/theories they don't like. Please be fair. I oppose changing the title from Sultan to Hatun. If you must, then make the title read as "Mahidevran" only. 125.209.82.212 ( talk) 15:03, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
We see that Birinci Kadin is what a woman who has bore a first child; you're overlooking what I said: it was Hurrem who married legally Suleyman and broke the 200 hundred tradition, not Mahidevran; in any case, she can't be called a sultana. It is clear by your statement that you're being subjective about this: you're looking for an excuse rather than solid facts to call Mahidevran a sultana. Mahidevran was: theoretically, the daughter of a hatun, a birinci kadin, but never a sultana: she didn't legally marry Suleyman. The problem with the sources you cite is that they're recent and are rooted in speculation, just as all of your post above. Please, change the title to simply "Mahidevran"; all the other speculation can remain in the biography part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 20:17, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
The other wives, also not legally married to the sultan, were called "kadin" or "hatun". The first person of non-royal blood to be addressed as sultan was Suleyman's mother who the title "Valide Sultan" was created for; then "Haseki Sultan" was created for Hurrem when they married. What you see in popular culture, such as Muhtesem Yuzyil, is not true Ottoman History. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 20:21, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
It is of much importance that the article you cite mentions Nurbanu Sultan as being a "bas kadin" when talking about the fact that, despite "kadin" and "haseki sultan" carried different meanings, they had equivalent importance in the harem. What matters is, as Nurbanu wasn't a legal wife, she was still a kadin; she is mentioned as a sultana in wikipedia because she became Valide Sultan. Mahidevran wasn't a legal wife nor became the mother of a reigning sultan; you should read your own sources too, since it specifies the differences between a concubine and a legal wife. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 20:28, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Sorry I am not making excuses I just refuse to believe that a "Brinci Kadin" wasn't called Sultana when she was serving as a mother of heir apparent and living in the Harem the same time title "Sultan" was started being used for Sultan's consorts. Again it's just my opinion to me it looks like a fact. We have not seen another such example after 15th century of a Senior consort being not called Sultana. Not all Haseki married the Sultan, if Hasekis can be called Sultana without marrying the Sultan so can the Bas Kadins. Also note the rank Kadin or Birinci Kadin ended with Mahidevran, this rank changed to Haseki Sultan (logically this is what happened). Though Hurrem must have been called Sultana first, the Ottoman dynamics simply couldn't allow such discrepancy within the Harem that once the title "Sultan" is started being used for favorite wives, that they don't called the first favorite with the same title. Hope you got my point. And you said that her being called Hatun or NOT being called Sultana is a Fact. I am sorry but Facts do NOT leave room for doubts. And there is lots of lots of doubts about the title of this woman. Like mentioned before, popular culture adopts from what has happened in the past. Again, it's just my opinion I still oppose the change of title. Thank you. 125.209.82.212 ( talk) 20:52, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
It is stated that kadins and hasekis carried equal rights in the harem, so why are you so passionate to call her sultana if she wasn't married to Suleyman? And for your information, if you read all the wikipedia articles, all women that didn't marry the sultan stayed as hatun unless they became Valide (as Nurbanu). I already gave you all evidence, but you insist on calling her a sultana because you "assume" Birinci Kadin and Sultan mean the same: they are applied to concubine and legal wife accordingly and therefore don't mean the same. It is clear you don't have the intention to make this wikipedia page historically accurate. And for your info, they all married the sultan and were legal wives, and those that weren't married were called hatun. This article is literally the ONLY one in wikipedia to call a hatun a sultana. Please stop making assumptions and accept the facts, this article needs to be changed to only Mahidevran, and all the theories and speculations, and doubted accounts can remain in an subtitle, because "doubt" and "speculation" do nothing to educate and help people. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 22:51, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
The thing is, unlike yours, I'm not fabricating a theory! If it was up to people making subjective propositions for every wikipedia page, then there would be millions of the same subject; there can't be 6 billion wikipedia pages of the sun, there can't be 6 billion pages wikipedia pages of earth, and of course there can't be 6 billion pages of Mahidevran. There must be only one, with correct facts that inform people with the necessary information, and the reader, not the editor, is the one who makes the interpretation. You can infer and speculate and theorize all you want, but history is history and I find it highly disrespectful and arrogant that you think your abstractions are worth more than the reality of events. I request moderators to change the title of this page to "Mahidevran" only and if they find it pertinent as well, to retain the speculations in a subtopic within the page. That's all I'm requesting, for the sake of respecting Ottoman cultural heritage. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 01:30, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Actually you are the one making subjective propositions here. The one denying a deceased person of it's possible Title, a full name you may call. I asked a simple question and you failed to answer because you cant. Let me repeat it; why didn't popular culture ever mentioned another Hatun ranked consort a Sultan? Also, why does these History Books (not popular history books) referred her as Sultan? [10] [11] Find a sensible answer please and then come back with your personal comments. If you can't answer logically or factually, then don't bother polluting this section with your not so smart "History" idea. It seems you consider a Talk page as a comment war section, well it's not. 113.203.190.165 ( talk) 02:19, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Why did popular culture assume, for example, that Hurrem was participant in the executions of Ibrahim Pasha and Mustafa? Why popular theatre plays describe her character despite strangers of all types being forbidden into the harem? All the facts have been laid out but you still want to call Mahidevran a sultana when she wasn't: she didn't legally marry Suleyman, nor was the mother of a sultan. Popular culture calls her that way because in some theatre plays she's erroneously addressed like that, just as any work of FICTION. Where are the administrators of this page anyway? Please, if there's someone who can review this and make a decision quickly. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 02:43, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
"Denying a deceased person of its possible title" you just put yourself in evidence here. It's not her possible title and you think this is a joke. She's a hatun, not a legal wife, still had similar privilege as a haseki, her son didn't become sultan: all the facts point to her not being officially a sultana. You can cite thousands of pop culture books with erronous facts, rumours and misconceptions. But at the end of the day, that's all irrelevant. And it's not "my" idea of history, I'm respecting the facts; if anyone's fabricating their own fantasy is you with your admitted speculations and possibilities.. Don't even start to talk about facts when the come from a theatre play. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 02:50, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Your yet another personal comment attack proves that it's not the History you're worried about but your own opinion. For the record, The books I referred are History books, recalled by actual accounts, I didn't cite a popular history book or a theater play. In official account, not all consorts who was referred as SULTANA was legally married to Sultan nor was the Valide Sultan. Yet they were called Sultana for being Sultan's Kadins (Wives) You have a very little knowledge you are only referring to a few (if not one) online source and claiming that was it. Wikipedia doesn't work like that. This has to stop, no factual person will buy your theory. Theories I presented are with facts of ottoman etiquette and evidence from History books. Please don't get personal here it's just a talk page. Everyone has a right to put their opinion and I just put mine. For the record, you still failed to answer my question, rephrasing; why in some theatre plays she's the only Hatun ranked consort who is erroneously addressed like Sultana? Why not any other Hatun has that article differences. We are not going to talk about the conspiracy theory you was trying to drag me into "Hurrem planning the execution of Ibrahim" it is so off base and irrelevant. Thank you. 113.203.163.165 ( talk) 11:54, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
I think both theories are correct, general logic can be used in Wikipedia IF the sources available contradicts each other, but even if she was called Sultan there is no need to mention it in the Title. Simply putting Mahidevran in the title will be better. 125.209.82.212 ( talk) 13:40, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
I agree with the latest proposal. The title of this page should read as Mahidevran or Mahidevran Gulbahar. No title is suitable for this page, niether Sultan nor Hatun since users can't agree. There is a possibility of both titles therefore no title should be put in. Worldandhistory ( talk) 14:13, 4 March 2016 (UTC) ((reftalk))
There is no consensus to add the interview of an "alleged descendant" of Mahidevran to this article. Interviews of "alleged descendant" are not reliable sources for an history article, and the burden of demonstrating their reliability falls upon the editor who want to introduce them, as is written at WP:INTERVIEWS. If he still insists, he can bring the source at the reliable sources noticeboard and ask for an opinion there. Alex2006 ( talk) 15:04, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
@ Keivan.f I haven't searched about mahidvran but happen to have read about her. Sorry cant find sources now that was about 12 years ago. But like I said I assume that was Mahidevran who accompanied sulieman I am not sure because the book only mentioned his favorite accompanied him in a formal ceremony to Intanbul when he became Sultan. I dont see why someone should expand these articles as seen from the title and the heated discussion on chief consort below that even sources are not enough and I just cant do such long discussions. I think she was chief consort but later lost her position though she remained first wife. As far as I know... Worldandhistory ( talk) 09:53, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Sort it out. If you all come to an agreement earlier let me know. Doug Weller talk 15:40, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
The Haseki Sultan was chief consort, and Hürrem Sultan was Süleyman's. Note that I'm not saying that Mahidevran was not chief consort before the title Haseki came into use, but it's clear that she didn't continue to hold the title. Not to mention that "was a chief consort" doesn't make much sense, because a implies that there is more than one which is a contradiction to the meaning of chief. 2003:6A:6851:3301:2906:2827:AE05:4542 ( talk) 03:31, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
All the references can be found here [13]. If you are not convinced we can try to get this on reliable sources noticeboard. As far as I have researched, every Web verifying organization has approved of it. Many books (you may easily google) have also referred to this website for references. Since founded in 2002, no complaint about the unreliability of it's sources has been made by Turkey Govt. I don't think the Turks would have been so quite and this web would have been still available if it wasn't authentic. 113.203.146.216 ( talk) 01:35, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Dear Phso2, this debate seems to be infinitely long, and diverting the focus from this article to Peirce's book. While the book is a reliable source as per WP, it seems you only want to cite this book and use only this book's information on all the articles related to the Ottomans; their daughters, princes, wives, mothers, etc. As we can clearly see from your contribution list. Your stubbornness of using only Peirce's provided information while neglecting other possible sources shows your own prejudice, not anyone else's. Unless we have another source which gives us the sketch of positions of Sultan's consorts in Harem, the WEB SITE can be cited, because there is no mentioning of consort's positions and their status in their master's harem in Leslie's book. If you are, however, still convinced that only Peirce's book is authentic source for the Ottomans, try putting this "concubinage" information in Ottoman Empire in details as explained by Leslie and see the response of Turks and Ottoman followers by yourself. My only request, please don't emphasize Leslie's work on entire Ottoman system, let there be other possible sources as well, specially for a matter like this, when there is little if no information on "consorts' position in harem before 16th century" is present in her book. Thank you 113.203.177.1 ( talk) 18:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC) One more thing, though "Kadin" was (according to Peirce) a SLANG term for Hatun (woman) created by Ottomans (respectfully I guess) nonetheless it was used for respected wives of Sultans and Shezades. Try google, or any other Deep Web search engine, you can see dozens if not hundreds of books, journals and non-commercial websites that refferred to Mahidevran as Kadin or Sultan (sources dating back to 17th century - I say this because you probably would say they have been written by Turkish soap opera's fans) whereas Gulfem, Fulane, and Gulnisa, all consorts are mentioned by title Hatun. 113.203.177.1 ( talk) 18:52, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Dear Keivan.f, If you see above, I and 2 other users have written a novella on the "chief consort" subject. And you Sir, just decided to crash in and make an edit. :) There is no harm in mentioning "cheif consort", specially since Sulieman have had 3 other consorts. She did served as a "cheif consort" (bash Kadin) before Haseki Hurrem Sultan. And there is no problem in distinguishing the difference between her, Gulfem Hatun and Fulane Hatun. 125.209.82.212 ( talk) 22:11, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Bas kadin literally means "Head Woman", and if this "head woman" status didn't exist at that time then why she has been referred as "Baş kadin" or Birinci kadin by numerous books? Including those of John Freely. The motion that all these history books are dramatized or contain anachronism can't be true.
The reference is supposed to support an Euboean origin, however the original book does say she was from Montenegro (p.344)... Does the translation really say she was from Euboea???-- Phso2 ( talk) 21:39, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
The Ottoman archives and privy purse records prove that she was Mahidevran Hatun, regardless that fact that she was the mother of the crown prince or had been once a favorite of Suleiman. She is called "Mahidevran Hatun Valide Sultan Mustafa" which is translated as "Empress Mahidevran mother of Prince Mustafa".
Retrieverlove ( talk) 08:43, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
"[...] and the Sultan's favorite or chief consorts changed to Sultan [...]. Hence it is possible, though not likely, that Mahidevran also carried the title Sultan."
That's not the correct conclusion, though. The use of "sultan" for a consort came with the title Haseki, because the full title was Haseki Sultan (Devletlû İsmetlu (given name) Haseki Sultân Aliyyetü'ş-Şân Hazretleri)—that is why. Since that title was created for Hürrem, this does not affect Mahidevran, who was important nonetheless as the mother of the oldest prince, but not a Haseki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E8:8BCE:C01:ED43:4385:BB24:1ABE ( talk) 09:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
(moved from user TP)
I am giving you answer about Mahidevran Sultan's rank.According to reliable sources it is confirmed that Mahidevran Sultan was Suleiman's Bas kadin(chief consort or chief lady).This was for those women who bore the eldest male child of reigning Sultan.As Mahidevran Sultan was the mother of Sehzade Mustafa,eldest son of Suleiman the magnificent,it is very logical that she held the rank Bas kadin or Birinci Kadin,it's from me which is logical.
Jobair khondoker (
talk) 17:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
"But Leslie P. Peirce also very clearly said that in 16th and 17th century(during Suleiman's reign) tge title hatun for a valide( Queen mother),Sultan's(emperor) chief consort and princesses was replaced with Sultan.As Mahidevran was the first chief consort and Baş Kadın (chief consort) according to ottoman tradition so it's very easy to find out that she held the title Sultan from the very beginning." Who thought it was acceptable to post this? Not only is the phrasing leaving much to be desired, the conclusion is also a subjective speculation presented as a fact. - Le temps viendra ( talk) 22:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Clear this matter Le temps Viendra Khondoker Jobair ( talk) 05:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
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223.230.95.250 ( talk) 08:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Mentioned her survival possible after Hurrem a death is not sound real
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In this article the sentence about Mahidevran's origin had been changed several times. Circassian or Albanian ? I badly need a reliable source to back either claim. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 06:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
She was an Albanian; her father, Abdullah Recai was a musician and her brother was Nakkashan Adem. In Albenian Gülbahar means Rosne Pravnere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.0.179 ( talk) 11:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
If the modifiers of this page can identify this reference, then please update. This woman could be Mahidevran or could also be Gulfem or the first unknown wife of Suleiman. "She was said to have been the most beautiful girl in the dynasty and out-stood in beauty in a land which was known for it. These princesses, were destined to be gifted (in other words sold) by their ruling fathers to their higher or equivalent ranking rulers, kings and grand Vazirs (ministers). As Mulkhurub Bahar Idarovna blossomed into an eye dazzling beauty, her father saw this as an opportunity to strengthen the political relationship between the Caucasus and Ottoman Dynasty. During the start of 15th century, the Ottoman dynasty was taking over the territories of its rivals more rapidly than before. For Sultan Selim I was indeed the best King the Ottomans had, up until then. This King (Sultan) did not have many successors left by 1511, for his only surviving son was Prince Sulieman (who later became Suleiman the Magnificent). Prince Idar took this as an opportunity to make a good relationship with their rapidly spending neighboring dynasty, as young Prince Sulieman was only a few year older (if not the same age) than his most beautiful daughter. Not hesitating for a second thought, he offered his beautiful daughter, as a gift, to the young prince." I got this text from this reference if anyone have an actual book name to cite then please update. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.203.190.128 ( talk) 20:25, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
@ Phso2 Hi, I am Worldandhistory. About the recently revived edit war on the Origins of Mahidevran, I would like to clear that I am not a descendant of Mahidevran, I just came across the Genealogy document and thought it was rather convincing one. However, if you feel otherwise, you could always simply revert the changes or add the "unreliable source" template with reasoning. Adding something as controversial as ""she was a slave"" as can be seen here would only draw unnecessary attention of the fans and/or may or may not be alleged descendants, as your content was more like a statement rather than a neutral point of view. This section is full of "possible" origin theories, so mentioning any ""possible theory"" is no violation of any principal. However, I added ""the most convincing theory"" was wrong I admit, therefore, I have changed that. An extra piece of information, in 15th century, the Tatars, Caucasians, Albanians, and Russians were all considered part of ""Circassia"". Worldandhistory ( talk) 18:40, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
-- Phso2 ( talk) 17:48, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Hi again, sorry I noticed now you added "suggests she was a cariye, thus of non-notable family" I will have to remove it because the source only called her Cariye and did not specifically says that she was of non-notable family. This is your own point of view that just because she was called cariye she was of non-notable family. Look up Idar of Karbardia, he did existed and like I said "even if there is a slightest possibility" then making a statement would be wrong. Just Skip that Cariye part as everyone knows even the princesses who were lawfully wedded to Sultans of Ottoman dynasty, Shah Jehans of Mughal emperors and Sheikhs of Arab, were all considered slave to their husbands. Hope you understand. Worldandhistory ( talk) 00:10, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
You did not answer my first point, no where in the article does it say she belonged to a noble family, the article is now free from any claims of her being scion, the article simply focuses on her origins. If you want you may mention an unnecessary word "slave" to the totally irrelevant section of "Origin and early life" but trust me you'll spent your whole life (and next one as well if you're a monk) reverting the changes made by those who have problem with this piece of word. If, however, you can get an admin to permanently block the page from any further editing you may do so. Best R. - Worldandhistory ( talk) 16:08, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Phso2, your provided sources does not particularly points at M's father. While every other converted slave might be called Abdullah, we can't simply consider every person with the name of Abdullah to be a slave, for example, you say "Abdullah as a generic name for slave converts" then again I don't suppose that Şehzade Abdullah was a slave, this contradicts your claim that evry man with this name was a slave. I shall wait for your response until few days then revert your changes, if you are unable to prove that this "Abdullah" was indeed a slave and not a free person, in which case, M would have been a "gifted wife" (married to S not legally but rather tough Nikah 'urfi). You are not helping in maintaining the neutrality, rather imposing your opinions extracted from your sources. I was wrong I admitted that and removed the contents sourced from the blog. I even request the deletion of dubious page of her alleged father but you are not admitting that you may be wrong here. Best. - Worldandhistory ( talk) 16:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
@ Phso2: Two of your sources are at stake (Colin Iber's and Peirce's), please read page 136 of Colin's book, this gives definition of Slave in general term, so calling any member of Sultan's family a slave does not necessarily makes them a slave by origin, and P simply used a text from Alberi, P herself only called M a concubine. Concubine by definition is not a slave. You completely twisted the question and answered what I didn't ask. I asked you to provide a source calling M's father Abdullah a Slave. While "XXX son of Abdullah" maybe a son of a convert slave, you cannot say that Khalid son of Abdullah or Hussein son of Abdullah are also slaves. Likewise Abdullah Frères's children were not slaves by nature. The name Abdullah may be used as a generic patronymic (father's name) for slave converts but this name was and is very common for any royal family as well as a common family in any Islamic dynasty. - Worldandhistory ( talk) 18:40, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Wow, it seems you desperately did some personal research, you have all the time in the world don't you? :P Well, like I said, all these efforts prove nothing but if you are convinced read may latest comments on my last reply; "you may add the word slave to Origins if you are still convinced but must also use the term "possibly" along with it to maintain a NPOV." You did not saw that did you? And with all this research you are only proving yourself wrong because NONE OF YOUR SOURCES say that M was a Muslim Convert, rather, they say, Mahidevran, daughter of Abdullah. All these authors could've have used this phrase simply because they didn't know what the real father's name was, like I said "this name was and is very common for any royal family as well as a common family in any Islamic dynasty." Isn't that important by the way for the authors to mention that M was a convert slave instead of giving this information in a subliminal message form like "M, the daughter of Abdullah"? I guess the authors were inspired by Illuminatis ;) (just a joke, no offense) Anyway, I can't argue with you, I can only simply ask for an admin's attention to all of your WP:OR. Best :) - Worldandhistory ( talk) 15:18, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Mahidevran Sultan in Türkçe Bilgi = tr:Meahidevran Sultan in Turkish Wikipedia. Takabeg ( talk) 09:10, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Someone needs to check the pronunciation: stress and vowel length. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.161.124.138 ( talk) 14:13, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
It's wondering me about the Turks...
SO many false claimed about Mahidevran and a daughter of Süleyman , who called Raziye
Mahidevran had only one son, it was Mustafa.
Raziye was born 1519, as daughter of süleyman and fülane hatun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.248.138.199 ( talk) 06:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
I removed a painting of Rosne Pranvere from the article. The source is "BBC your paintings". The original caption is only "sultana" and there is no reference to Rosne Pranvere. I called both the contributor and the gallery to show any link to Rosne and so far I get none. Nedim Ardoğa ( talk) 08:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
The page Mahidevran Sultan should be moved to Mahidevran Gülbahar Hatun because Mahidevran was never a concubine or a Haseki Sultan and Hürrem Sultan was the first Haseki Sultan.-- Retrieverlove 1:09, 22 June 2014
According to Leslie P. Peirce, prior to the creation of the title Haseki Sultan for Hürrem Sultan, all the Ottoman consorts carried an alternative royal title, "Hatun".But Leslie P. Peirce also said that during 16th century(Suleiman's reign) the title Hatun for a valide,princesses and Sultan's consorts were changed by Sultan(it's called Sultana in the harem to distinguish between male and female). [8] However it is clear,that Mahidevran Sultan also carried the title Sultan as she was the first main chief consort (Baş Kadın). Moreover, she is referred to as "Mahidevran Sultan" in popular history books, TV series and touristic literature. [9][10]
Though Mahidevran Sultan may not have been a Haseki, she was the mother of Şehzade Mustafa, the eldest surviving son of the reigning Sultan and the crown prince of the imperial throne. Hence it can be asserted that she held an very influential position in Suleiman's harem: according to Ottoman traditions, she was Suleiman's Chi Baş Kadın. She was in the second rank after Hafsa Sultan(Valide Sultan) in the harem according to the Ottoman tradition.[3][11][12] While Hürrem became Suleiman's new favorite and later his legal wife, Mahidevran Sultan retained the status of the crowned mother of Suleiman's eldest son,[13] and became Suleiman's "first wife". Khondoker Jobair ( talk) 06:10, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
I think you are mistaken my friend,,Mahidevran Sultan was the first chief consort and the proud mother Sehzade mustafa,the most potential heir apparent of the throne for succesion of his father.And you are saying that she was not even a concubine??? That's very funny!!! Pathetic joke!! Khondoker Jobair ( talk) 06:13, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Mahidevran and Suleiman had five children -- three sons and two daughters.
References
Teodora Maria Ungureanu Teodora Maria Ungureanu ( talk) 23:19, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Teodora Maria Ungureanu Teodora Maria Ungureanu ( talk) 23:20, 23 May 2016 (UTC)
Why is she called Mahidevran Sultan in this article? Before Hürrem Sultan, every consort was called hatun. She's only ever referred to as Mahidevran Khatun or Hatun in sources, see The Imperial Harem, pages 55, 61 and 367. Letempsviendra ( talk) 19:30, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Phso 2 You are saying that Leslie P. Pierce told n his book that for the creation of the title Haseki Sultan for Hurrem all the other consorts carried an alternative title Hatun.But my freind you should also know that,Leslie P. Peirce also said that during 16th century(Suleiman's reign) the title Hatun for a valide,princesses and Sultan's consorts were changed by Sultan(it's called Sultana in the harem to distinguish between male and female). And Mahidevran was the proud mother of Sehzade Mustafa,who was the most potential and talented heir apparent to the throne.And Mahidevran was not like the other Consorts of Suleiman,like Gulfem or Fulane.After the death of the sons of other consorts by diseases She was the mother of only son of Suleiman the magnificent and according to the ottoman tradition sje was Suleiman's Bas kadin,which was the most powerful position for a Sultan's consort before creation and after abolition of the title Haseki Sultan.As Leslie P. Pierce said that during Suleiman's reign the title for Queen mother, Princesses and Sultan's chief consort changed to Sultan from Hatun.And other ordinary consorts of Sultan held the title Hatun.And Mahidevran Sultan was favorite and chief consort of Suleiman before hurrem,and she was the mother of crown prince of the ottoman empire. Dear Phso 2,I think i have made the issue clear which is about the royal woman "Mahidevran" and you shuould not have any doubt or confusion or Question regarding this subject. Thank you From Khondoker Jobair. Khondoker Jobair ( talk) 06:37, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Keivan, do you really have access to the proposed source? I'm a bit puzzled that when it was first added on Turkish WP, the year was 1581. (besides, you don't mention Turkish among the languages you speak)-- Phso2 ( talk) 10:22, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
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The Word Birinci Kadin means " First Lady" as in (respected) wife of reigning king, not "First Woman". Please correct that. She is known to be a legal wife before Hurrem Sultan, but not so popular since Hurrem Sultan was the first "slave" to become a legal wife, hence, only Hurrem's being a legal wife is so popular. 113.203.158.58 ( talk) 00:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I request a change of title, to revert it back to its original name (which was only "Mahidevran") and maintain its protected status. Why does she have sultan next to her name? The information given in this page reveals that despite being called addressed as a sultana she wasn't one, and before that edit came to be the page addressed her as hatun (and many others too [1] ), which is also a title she's been given in other sources. She was not a sultana, she was a Birinci Kadin , therefore if any "royal title" should be used to her name it should be that; this is highly misleading and causes conflict with Ottoman history. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 01:47, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I beg to differ, in many books (arts, literature whatever you may call) she has been known as Sultana. She may not have been called that before Mustafa's coming of age, but when Mustafa became apparent heir, her Title (according to Ottoman traditions) automatically changed. Also, a Sultana was a woman in Sultan's family, being a mother of heir apparent living in the Harem at the same time the title Haseki was used for Hurrem, it can be asserted that she was also called Sultana, due to the fact that in her time (when Hurrem came along) Sultana title was already started being used for royal consorts regardless if they were haseki or not, see example of Mahfiruz Hatice Sultan, who was niether haseki nor Valide. Give me one name of the mother of potential heir to the throne (like mustafa) who wasn't called Sultana after 1500. Depriving someone of their last name or title for your own satisfaction is NOT just, it's highly misleading and causes conflict with Ottoman history. Also, she became an important symbol of how ottoman consorts never had a permanent position in Harem and politics as it was only after Mahidevran with whom the Ottoman started respecting their royal consorts, it is obvious, that when Hurrem Sultan was given such elevation the same time the mother of heir apparent was alive and living in the Harem, that Mahidevran was also considered as Sultan's family member and hence the title. Also please keep the recent source in mind about an interview with her alleged descendant. If interviews can be cited in Wikipedia for every living or dead person, why there is so much debate in this one? I do NOT understand. Here are some sources (regardless of their nature) they contradicts the motion that she wasn't called Sultan. [2] [3] [4] [5] She has been known by this title since Nurbano's time. No need to change the title. [6] 113.203.150.188 ( talk) 02:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Popular culture and Ottoman court etiquette are two different things. Also, the rules are clear: no woman other than the sultan's own female blood relatives and main wife use the title of sultan [7]. The references you've cited present a clear inconsistency with defined Ottoman titles and therefore they are invalid. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 16:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
This is the point, whether she was a main wife or not. Whatever sources we can find, half of them supports the Hatun theory, the other half supports Sultan theory. Popular culture is defined from what had actually happened in the past, the existence of this woman wasn't thousand of years ago that we can assume the popular culture has adopted "myths". Also I would like to repeat a point I made earlier, the interview with her alleged descendant cannot be overlooked. Interviews are constantly being used in Wikipedia for every notable person, why neglect this one? If that is wrong, Wikipedia should never ever cite an interview source in any other article as well. Above all, her being mother of heir apparent is not a popular culture but a fact. While she was serving as the mother to heir apparent she was considered a Sultan's family member (Ottoman court etiquette), hence the title. 113.203.156.141 ( talk) 23:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
First of all, those references you've cited are: 1) popular culture based books 2) recent and based on art and theatrical depictions; as such, these references are unfounded and misinformed when it comes to Ottoman history. Therefore they can't be used. And for your information, she wasn't the mother, sister, aunt or main wife of the sultan: she wasn't a sultana, even when a theatre play calls her that. On the case of Roxelana, it was a nickname she was given that didn't elevate or lowered her status and wasn't a direct reflection of Ottoman culture but more of the influence she had on history. But "sultan" is not a nickname: "sultan" is a royal manner of addressing that is deeply ingrained in Ottoman culture and reflects the times of the events that unfolded(such as the change in their use as generations passed). "Sultan" had many meanings throughout history and did reflect the status and the way of interacting of the times; if we want to accurately depict history then, at last, she's a "hatun". One of the alledged theories points to her mother being addressed in that manner. In the times of Suleyman, not everyone could be addressed that way. The reason I call for a page title is to respect Ottoman customs and history, nothing more. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 05:20, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Also, let's not forget that many of those artistic/theatrical depictions are based on rumors and fictitious creations for the sake of entertainment. If you treat Ottoman history as merely entertainment, you're not doing your job to inform people. The title of this page has to be changed and needs to be protected from any form of cultural erasure. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 05:26, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Excuse me one more time. It is explicitly explained that the title "Haseki Sultan" was created when Hürrem married Suleyman. It is also stated that before "Haseki Sultan" all concubines used the title hatun. If "Haseki Sultan" was created solely for Hurrem when they legally married, breaking a 200 hundred tradition of not marrying, why should anyone assume that other concubines of the sultan would start using "sultan" if they didn't marry him? The change of titles was to differentiate a legal wife from a concubine/consort/unrecognized wife or however you want to call it. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 05:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
A few sources does claim she was a wife. Specially every Circassion origin theory. We cannot overlook them. Hurrem and Mahidevran were 2 main consorts. Please see meaning of "Birinci Kadin" in whatever Ottoman Dictionary you like. Birinci Kadin was used for wives only, Brinici Kadin was not used for concubines or ordinary consorts, Birinci Kadin meant First Wife/Senior Consort. Although Sultans didn't used to lawfully wed their wives, Birinci Kadins were considered and treated just like lawfully wedded wives. Even so, a Sultan was NOT allowed to have more than 4 Kadins at a time (Brinci Kadin, Baş Kadın or Sultan Kadin was the first ranking wife), but can have as much concubines as he liked. This tells how important and high ranking Birinci Kadins were (see any ottoman dictionary you like to see what Birinci Kadin means and what was their positions in early history of Ottoman.) [8] [9] Though Hurrem was more favored, Mahidevran was still a wife and mother of heir apparent. I think it is obvious that the exception would have been made at that time for a non-Haseki consort to be called a Sultan. Hatun is not a Title at all. Hatun is used for every other lady in Turkish and Persian language. Even lowest ranking maids of the Harem were called Hatun out of respect. If Sultana cannot be used for a "Birinci Kadin" then Hatun should also not be used. People have done a great job depicting fake ottoman culture. Please consider all sources available. Everyone is emphasizing on only one source for the subjected woman that is of Leslie P. Peirce's and simply ignoring those sources/references/theories they don't like. Please be fair. I oppose changing the title from Sultan to Hatun. If you must, then make the title read as "Mahidevran" only. 125.209.82.212 ( talk) 15:03, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
We see that Birinci Kadin is what a woman who has bore a first child; you're overlooking what I said: it was Hurrem who married legally Suleyman and broke the 200 hundred tradition, not Mahidevran; in any case, she can't be called a sultana. It is clear by your statement that you're being subjective about this: you're looking for an excuse rather than solid facts to call Mahidevran a sultana. Mahidevran was: theoretically, the daughter of a hatun, a birinci kadin, but never a sultana: she didn't legally marry Suleyman. The problem with the sources you cite is that they're recent and are rooted in speculation, just as all of your post above. Please, change the title to simply "Mahidevran"; all the other speculation can remain in the biography part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 20:17, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
The other wives, also not legally married to the sultan, were called "kadin" or "hatun". The first person of non-royal blood to be addressed as sultan was Suleyman's mother who the title "Valide Sultan" was created for; then "Haseki Sultan" was created for Hurrem when they married. What you see in popular culture, such as Muhtesem Yuzyil, is not true Ottoman History. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 20:21, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
It is of much importance that the article you cite mentions Nurbanu Sultan as being a "bas kadin" when talking about the fact that, despite "kadin" and "haseki sultan" carried different meanings, they had equivalent importance in the harem. What matters is, as Nurbanu wasn't a legal wife, she was still a kadin; she is mentioned as a sultana in wikipedia because she became Valide Sultan. Mahidevran wasn't a legal wife nor became the mother of a reigning sultan; you should read your own sources too, since it specifies the differences between a concubine and a legal wife. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 20:28, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Sorry I am not making excuses I just refuse to believe that a "Brinci Kadin" wasn't called Sultana when she was serving as a mother of heir apparent and living in the Harem the same time title "Sultan" was started being used for Sultan's consorts. Again it's just my opinion to me it looks like a fact. We have not seen another such example after 15th century of a Senior consort being not called Sultana. Not all Haseki married the Sultan, if Hasekis can be called Sultana without marrying the Sultan so can the Bas Kadins. Also note the rank Kadin or Birinci Kadin ended with Mahidevran, this rank changed to Haseki Sultan (logically this is what happened). Though Hurrem must have been called Sultana first, the Ottoman dynamics simply couldn't allow such discrepancy within the Harem that once the title "Sultan" is started being used for favorite wives, that they don't called the first favorite with the same title. Hope you got my point. And you said that her being called Hatun or NOT being called Sultana is a Fact. I am sorry but Facts do NOT leave room for doubts. And there is lots of lots of doubts about the title of this woman. Like mentioned before, popular culture adopts from what has happened in the past. Again, it's just my opinion I still oppose the change of title. Thank you. 125.209.82.212 ( talk) 20:52, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
It is stated that kadins and hasekis carried equal rights in the harem, so why are you so passionate to call her sultana if she wasn't married to Suleyman? And for your information, if you read all the wikipedia articles, all women that didn't marry the sultan stayed as hatun unless they became Valide (as Nurbanu). I already gave you all evidence, but you insist on calling her a sultana because you "assume" Birinci Kadin and Sultan mean the same: they are applied to concubine and legal wife accordingly and therefore don't mean the same. It is clear you don't have the intention to make this wikipedia page historically accurate. And for your info, they all married the sultan and were legal wives, and those that weren't married were called hatun. This article is literally the ONLY one in wikipedia to call a hatun a sultana. Please stop making assumptions and accept the facts, this article needs to be changed to only Mahidevran, and all the theories and speculations, and doubted accounts can remain in an subtitle, because "doubt" and "speculation" do nothing to educate and help people. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 22:51, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
The thing is, unlike yours, I'm not fabricating a theory! If it was up to people making subjective propositions for every wikipedia page, then there would be millions of the same subject; there can't be 6 billion wikipedia pages of the sun, there can't be 6 billion pages wikipedia pages of earth, and of course there can't be 6 billion pages of Mahidevran. There must be only one, with correct facts that inform people with the necessary information, and the reader, not the editor, is the one who makes the interpretation. You can infer and speculate and theorize all you want, but history is history and I find it highly disrespectful and arrogant that you think your abstractions are worth more than the reality of events. I request moderators to change the title of this page to "Mahidevran" only and if they find it pertinent as well, to retain the speculations in a subtopic within the page. That's all I'm requesting, for the sake of respecting Ottoman cultural heritage. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 01:30, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Actually you are the one making subjective propositions here. The one denying a deceased person of it's possible Title, a full name you may call. I asked a simple question and you failed to answer because you cant. Let me repeat it; why didn't popular culture ever mentioned another Hatun ranked consort a Sultan? Also, why does these History Books (not popular history books) referred her as Sultan? [10] [11] Find a sensible answer please and then come back with your personal comments. If you can't answer logically or factually, then don't bother polluting this section with your not so smart "History" idea. It seems you consider a Talk page as a comment war section, well it's not. 113.203.190.165 ( talk) 02:19, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Why did popular culture assume, for example, that Hurrem was participant in the executions of Ibrahim Pasha and Mustafa? Why popular theatre plays describe her character despite strangers of all types being forbidden into the harem? All the facts have been laid out but you still want to call Mahidevran a sultana when she wasn't: she didn't legally marry Suleyman, nor was the mother of a sultan. Popular culture calls her that way because in some theatre plays she's erroneously addressed like that, just as any work of FICTION. Where are the administrators of this page anyway? Please, if there's someone who can review this and make a decision quickly. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 02:43, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
"Denying a deceased person of its possible title" you just put yourself in evidence here. It's not her possible title and you think this is a joke. She's a hatun, not a legal wife, still had similar privilege as a haseki, her son didn't become sultan: all the facts point to her not being officially a sultana. You can cite thousands of pop culture books with erronous facts, rumours and misconceptions. But at the end of the day, that's all irrelevant. And it's not "my" idea of history, I'm respecting the facts; if anyone's fabricating their own fantasy is you with your admitted speculations and possibilities.. Don't even start to talk about facts when the come from a theatre play. 190.218.117.86 ( talk) 02:50, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Your yet another personal comment attack proves that it's not the History you're worried about but your own opinion. For the record, The books I referred are History books, recalled by actual accounts, I didn't cite a popular history book or a theater play. In official account, not all consorts who was referred as SULTANA was legally married to Sultan nor was the Valide Sultan. Yet they were called Sultana for being Sultan's Kadins (Wives) You have a very little knowledge you are only referring to a few (if not one) online source and claiming that was it. Wikipedia doesn't work like that. This has to stop, no factual person will buy your theory. Theories I presented are with facts of ottoman etiquette and evidence from History books. Please don't get personal here it's just a talk page. Everyone has a right to put their opinion and I just put mine. For the record, you still failed to answer my question, rephrasing; why in some theatre plays she's the only Hatun ranked consort who is erroneously addressed like Sultana? Why not any other Hatun has that article differences. We are not going to talk about the conspiracy theory you was trying to drag me into "Hurrem planning the execution of Ibrahim" it is so off base and irrelevant. Thank you. 113.203.163.165 ( talk) 11:54, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
I think both theories are correct, general logic can be used in Wikipedia IF the sources available contradicts each other, but even if she was called Sultan there is no need to mention it in the Title. Simply putting Mahidevran in the title will be better. 125.209.82.212 ( talk) 13:40, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
I agree with the latest proposal. The title of this page should read as Mahidevran or Mahidevran Gulbahar. No title is suitable for this page, niether Sultan nor Hatun since users can't agree. There is a possibility of both titles therefore no title should be put in. Worldandhistory ( talk) 14:13, 4 March 2016 (UTC) ((reftalk))
There is no consensus to add the interview of an "alleged descendant" of Mahidevran to this article. Interviews of "alleged descendant" are not reliable sources for an history article, and the burden of demonstrating their reliability falls upon the editor who want to introduce them, as is written at WP:INTERVIEWS. If he still insists, he can bring the source at the reliable sources noticeboard and ask for an opinion there. Alex2006 ( talk) 15:04, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
@ Keivan.f I haven't searched about mahidvran but happen to have read about her. Sorry cant find sources now that was about 12 years ago. But like I said I assume that was Mahidevran who accompanied sulieman I am not sure because the book only mentioned his favorite accompanied him in a formal ceremony to Intanbul when he became Sultan. I dont see why someone should expand these articles as seen from the title and the heated discussion on chief consort below that even sources are not enough and I just cant do such long discussions. I think she was chief consort but later lost her position though she remained first wife. As far as I know... Worldandhistory ( talk) 09:53, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Sort it out. If you all come to an agreement earlier let me know. Doug Weller talk 15:40, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
The Haseki Sultan was chief consort, and Hürrem Sultan was Süleyman's. Note that I'm not saying that Mahidevran was not chief consort before the title Haseki came into use, but it's clear that she didn't continue to hold the title. Not to mention that "was a chief consort" doesn't make much sense, because a implies that there is more than one which is a contradiction to the meaning of chief. 2003:6A:6851:3301:2906:2827:AE05:4542 ( talk) 03:31, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
All the references can be found here [13]. If you are not convinced we can try to get this on reliable sources noticeboard. As far as I have researched, every Web verifying organization has approved of it. Many books (you may easily google) have also referred to this website for references. Since founded in 2002, no complaint about the unreliability of it's sources has been made by Turkey Govt. I don't think the Turks would have been so quite and this web would have been still available if it wasn't authentic. 113.203.146.216 ( talk) 01:35, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Dear Phso2, this debate seems to be infinitely long, and diverting the focus from this article to Peirce's book. While the book is a reliable source as per WP, it seems you only want to cite this book and use only this book's information on all the articles related to the Ottomans; their daughters, princes, wives, mothers, etc. As we can clearly see from your contribution list. Your stubbornness of using only Peirce's provided information while neglecting other possible sources shows your own prejudice, not anyone else's. Unless we have another source which gives us the sketch of positions of Sultan's consorts in Harem, the WEB SITE can be cited, because there is no mentioning of consort's positions and their status in their master's harem in Leslie's book. If you are, however, still convinced that only Peirce's book is authentic source for the Ottomans, try putting this "concubinage" information in Ottoman Empire in details as explained by Leslie and see the response of Turks and Ottoman followers by yourself. My only request, please don't emphasize Leslie's work on entire Ottoman system, let there be other possible sources as well, specially for a matter like this, when there is little if no information on "consorts' position in harem before 16th century" is present in her book. Thank you 113.203.177.1 ( talk) 18:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC) One more thing, though "Kadin" was (according to Peirce) a SLANG term for Hatun (woman) created by Ottomans (respectfully I guess) nonetheless it was used for respected wives of Sultans and Shezades. Try google, or any other Deep Web search engine, you can see dozens if not hundreds of books, journals and non-commercial websites that refferred to Mahidevran as Kadin or Sultan (sources dating back to 17th century - I say this because you probably would say they have been written by Turkish soap opera's fans) whereas Gulfem, Fulane, and Gulnisa, all consorts are mentioned by title Hatun. 113.203.177.1 ( talk) 18:52, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Dear Keivan.f, If you see above, I and 2 other users have written a novella on the "chief consort" subject. And you Sir, just decided to crash in and make an edit. :) There is no harm in mentioning "cheif consort", specially since Sulieman have had 3 other consorts. She did served as a "cheif consort" (bash Kadin) before Haseki Hurrem Sultan. And there is no problem in distinguishing the difference between her, Gulfem Hatun and Fulane Hatun. 125.209.82.212 ( talk) 22:11, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Bas kadin literally means "Head Woman", and if this "head woman" status didn't exist at that time then why she has been referred as "Baş kadin" or Birinci kadin by numerous books? Including those of John Freely. The motion that all these history books are dramatized or contain anachronism can't be true.
The reference is supposed to support an Euboean origin, however the original book does say she was from Montenegro (p.344)... Does the translation really say she was from Euboea???-- Phso2 ( talk) 21:39, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
The Ottoman archives and privy purse records prove that she was Mahidevran Hatun, regardless that fact that she was the mother of the crown prince or had been once a favorite of Suleiman. She is called "Mahidevran Hatun Valide Sultan Mustafa" which is translated as "Empress Mahidevran mother of Prince Mustafa".
Retrieverlove ( talk) 08:43, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
"[...] and the Sultan's favorite or chief consorts changed to Sultan [...]. Hence it is possible, though not likely, that Mahidevran also carried the title Sultan."
That's not the correct conclusion, though. The use of "sultan" for a consort came with the title Haseki, because the full title was Haseki Sultan (Devletlû İsmetlu (given name) Haseki Sultân Aliyyetü'ş-Şân Hazretleri)—that is why. Since that title was created for Hürrem, this does not affect Mahidevran, who was important nonetheless as the mother of the oldest prince, but not a Haseki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E8:8BCE:C01:ED43:4385:BB24:1ABE ( talk) 09:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
(moved from user TP)
I am giving you answer about Mahidevran Sultan's rank.According to reliable sources it is confirmed that Mahidevran Sultan was Suleiman's Bas kadin(chief consort or chief lady).This was for those women who bore the eldest male child of reigning Sultan.As Mahidevran Sultan was the mother of Sehzade Mustafa,eldest son of Suleiman the magnificent,it is very logical that she held the rank Bas kadin or Birinci Kadin,it's from me which is logical.
Jobair khondoker (
talk) 17:41, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
"But Leslie P. Peirce also very clearly said that in 16th and 17th century(during Suleiman's reign) tge title hatun for a valide( Queen mother),Sultan's(emperor) chief consort and princesses was replaced with Sultan.As Mahidevran was the first chief consort and Baş Kadın (chief consort) according to ottoman tradition so it's very easy to find out that she held the title Sultan from the very beginning." Who thought it was acceptable to post this? Not only is the phrasing leaving much to be desired, the conclusion is also a subjective speculation presented as a fact. - Le temps viendra ( talk) 22:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Clear this matter Le temps Viendra Khondoker Jobair ( talk) 05:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
This
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223.230.95.250 ( talk) 08:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Mentioned her survival possible after Hurrem a death is not sound real
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