This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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A fact from Mahdi Abu Deeb appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 9 May 2012 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
According to Ref 1 (which it's URL needs to be corrected to: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/10/20111016145759140585.html), Deeb founded BTA in 2001. This is also confirmed by Al Wasat news paper [1]. I'm not being bold, because this will probably result in an edit conflict. Mohamed CJ (talk) 09:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
These expansions look largely good to be, but I see two potential problems here that we might want to clear up. The first is that the article relies heavily on the Bahrain Mirror, which I'm not sure qualifies as a reliable source. You've done a good job of mentioning in many places an "according to the B Mirror", but I still wonder if we should be using this quite so heavily? I also worry that the level of detail included about the torture accusations starts to throw NPOV a bit out of balance; we expand on Deeb's claims quite a bit and the govt. claims very little. But I know this is tricky, since this is a case the government probably prefers not to talk about--there's going to be much more about there from Deeb's supporters. You know the Arabic sources better than I do, though, so I'll let you take it from here; I just wanted to put those thoughts out there. Kudos on gathering all this research! Khazar2 ( talk) 18:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
So actually, we can remove "according to Bahrain Mirror" from some sentences and replace them with Deeb said.
Sounds good, and thanks for addressing this so thoroughly. When I questioned the Mirror's "reliability" I just meant in the sense of whether they were considered a Wikipedia-approved "reliable source"; I don't necessarily doubt the quality of their journalism. I just want to make sure this one holds up for higher levels of review in case you want to take it to DYK, etc.
As for the balance issue, you're quite right that the govt. case doesn't differ much from Deeb's statements. I added one additional line just to give some sense of their argument, but didn't see much more that could be added. I do wish we could find a govt. response to the torture allegations, even if it's just a line in Al Jazeera or somewhere that "the govt refuses to comment". But I didn't see that in reviewing the sources originally, so it might be WP:UNDUE anyway to specifically seek it out and include. Anyway, I'm satisfied with where this is at, I think. The article has a lot of allegations (as so many of these torture articles do), but I think we have them well-sourced to the people and organizations who made them. Khazar2 ( talk) 17:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
One of the sources (Bahrain Center for Human Rights) says:
The article mentions that "Deeb ... criticized the government and its response to the protests" and says that BTA demanded "reforms in Bahrain's educational system and protesting killing and suppression of activists, of which students made a high percentage".
I think that without emphasizing that Deeb and his BTA "played significant role in uprising" and had the "strong role in support of the uprising" some uninitiated reader could be mislead to believe that government prosecuted Deeb and BTA because of their demands for "reforms in Bahrain's educational system" and protests for ill treatment of the students during this uprising.
I propose to emphasize that Deeb and his BTA "played significant role in uprising" and had the "strong role in support of the uprising".-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:05, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Notability
Wikipedia:Notability (people) When an individual is significant for his or her role in a single event, it may be unclear whether an article should be written about the individual, the event or both. In considering whether or not to create separate articles, the degree of significance of the event itself and the degree of significance of the individual's role within it should be considered. The general rule in many cases is to cover the event, not the person.
The event in this case is arresting of BTA leader who played important role in support of anti-government protests. I am concerned about this event's/person's notability.
Victimisation
I am not sure if this article meets demands of WP:BLP, more precisely the section which says Avoid victimisation:
When writing about a person notable only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well-sourced. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization.
Using the subject as a self-published source
"Living persons may publish material about themselves, such as through press releases..."
Deeb's daughter is a source for numerous assertions in this text either directly or trough press releasess.
Summary:
Deeb is obviously notable for one event which is his persecution. He (mis?)used his position in BTA to support anti-government protests. His role in protests is eluded with claims that his demands were "reforms in educational system" and treatment of the student protesters. His case is expected to have a hearing at the Supreme Court of Appeal on 2 May this year.
I would appreciate comments on my concerns. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I've tried to reduce the sections that seem to me excessively detailed in terms of narrative while leaving the details that seem important to the legal case (such as his enumeration of his injuries before the court). Since his alleged torture (which the Bahraini government's own commission of inquiry appears to have confirmed) is a big part of the story here, I don't want to cut too much. Do these edits seem like a fair balance? I'm happy to take another pass if you'd like. Khazar2 ( talk) 18:48, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Solved:Important charges for "statements inciting ... violent crimes" and "promoting the overthrow of the government by force" added to the article
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The article says Mahdi Abu Deeb has been charged for:
Without adding that he was charged for "promoting the overthrow of the Government by force and illegal means" and "criminal acts" the information in article would not correspond with sources.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
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Solved:The names of two men that allegedly tortured Deeb are removed from the article until they can be supported by high quality sources.
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Allegedly tortured Deeb and Bahrain Mirror (anti-government dissident paper) is the only source for serious accusation against two government officials. Such serious accusation should be based on high quality sources and Deeb and I think that BM can not be considered as such. Therefore I propose to remove the names of the government officials Deeb identified as men who tortured him.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
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Solved:Report of BICI which did not mention Deeb replaced by other source which does.
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... is used as source for two very important assertions. First about Deeb's activities during the protests and second about his mistreatment in the prison which included beating. Maybe I did not look carefully, but I could not find any menton of Deeb's name in the above mentioned source. Is it possible to get some quotes from this source which support this serious claims?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:28, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
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Without government response to the criticism this section of the article does not fully meet NPOV requests.
There is a source which prove that very important organization ( OHCHR) was deeply concerned because of the human right issues in Bahrain and sent appeals and requests for explanations. The first among many issues they were concerned was related to Deeb.
I think that UN's agency should be mentioned in this article. Not only because it is important but mostly because it could be presented within the main points from the government's reply (1)that Deeb was found guilty by the court, 2)that he had been afforded all judical guarantees and 3)that he has right to appeal) which are necessary to be presented within responses section in order to meet NPOV requests.
Any comments?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:09, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for expanding this section with government's response and some additional important responses. I propose to rearange this section to follow some order. Either the importance (first UN, then EU, then various NGOs) or chronology (which is probably most neutral and suitable for expected further expanding).-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
New response [8]. Mohamed CJ (talk) 19:28, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from Mahdi Abu Deeb appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 9 May 2012 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
According to Ref 1 (which it's URL needs to be corrected to: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/10/20111016145759140585.html), Deeb founded BTA in 2001. This is also confirmed by Al Wasat news paper [1]. I'm not being bold, because this will probably result in an edit conflict. Mohamed CJ (talk) 09:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
These expansions look largely good to be, but I see two potential problems here that we might want to clear up. The first is that the article relies heavily on the Bahrain Mirror, which I'm not sure qualifies as a reliable source. You've done a good job of mentioning in many places an "according to the B Mirror", but I still wonder if we should be using this quite so heavily? I also worry that the level of detail included about the torture accusations starts to throw NPOV a bit out of balance; we expand on Deeb's claims quite a bit and the govt. claims very little. But I know this is tricky, since this is a case the government probably prefers not to talk about--there's going to be much more about there from Deeb's supporters. You know the Arabic sources better than I do, though, so I'll let you take it from here; I just wanted to put those thoughts out there. Kudos on gathering all this research! Khazar2 ( talk) 18:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
So actually, we can remove "according to Bahrain Mirror" from some sentences and replace them with Deeb said.
Sounds good, and thanks for addressing this so thoroughly. When I questioned the Mirror's "reliability" I just meant in the sense of whether they were considered a Wikipedia-approved "reliable source"; I don't necessarily doubt the quality of their journalism. I just want to make sure this one holds up for higher levels of review in case you want to take it to DYK, etc.
As for the balance issue, you're quite right that the govt. case doesn't differ much from Deeb's statements. I added one additional line just to give some sense of their argument, but didn't see much more that could be added. I do wish we could find a govt. response to the torture allegations, even if it's just a line in Al Jazeera or somewhere that "the govt refuses to comment". But I didn't see that in reviewing the sources originally, so it might be WP:UNDUE anyway to specifically seek it out and include. Anyway, I'm satisfied with where this is at, I think. The article has a lot of allegations (as so many of these torture articles do), but I think we have them well-sourced to the people and organizations who made them. Khazar2 ( talk) 17:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
One of the sources (Bahrain Center for Human Rights) says:
The article mentions that "Deeb ... criticized the government and its response to the protests" and says that BTA demanded "reforms in Bahrain's educational system and protesting killing and suppression of activists, of which students made a high percentage".
I think that without emphasizing that Deeb and his BTA "played significant role in uprising" and had the "strong role in support of the uprising" some uninitiated reader could be mislead to believe that government prosecuted Deeb and BTA because of their demands for "reforms in Bahrain's educational system" and protests for ill treatment of the students during this uprising.
I propose to emphasize that Deeb and his BTA "played significant role in uprising" and had the "strong role in support of the uprising".-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:05, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Notability
Wikipedia:Notability (people) When an individual is significant for his or her role in a single event, it may be unclear whether an article should be written about the individual, the event or both. In considering whether or not to create separate articles, the degree of significance of the event itself and the degree of significance of the individual's role within it should be considered. The general rule in many cases is to cover the event, not the person.
The event in this case is arresting of BTA leader who played important role in support of anti-government protests. I am concerned about this event's/person's notability.
Victimisation
I am not sure if this article meets demands of WP:BLP, more precisely the section which says Avoid victimisation:
When writing about a person notable only for one or two events, including every detail can lead to problems, even when the material is well-sourced. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. This is of particular importance when dealing with living individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions. Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization.
Using the subject as a self-published source
"Living persons may publish material about themselves, such as through press releases..."
Deeb's daughter is a source for numerous assertions in this text either directly or trough press releasess.
Summary:
Deeb is obviously notable for one event which is his persecution. He (mis?)used his position in BTA to support anti-government protests. His role in protests is eluded with claims that his demands were "reforms in educational system" and treatment of the student protesters. His case is expected to have a hearing at the Supreme Court of Appeal on 2 May this year.
I would appreciate comments on my concerns. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I've tried to reduce the sections that seem to me excessively detailed in terms of narrative while leaving the details that seem important to the legal case (such as his enumeration of his injuries before the court). Since his alleged torture (which the Bahraini government's own commission of inquiry appears to have confirmed) is a big part of the story here, I don't want to cut too much. Do these edits seem like a fair balance? I'm happy to take another pass if you'd like. Khazar2 ( talk) 18:48, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Solved:Important charges for "statements inciting ... violent crimes" and "promoting the overthrow of the government by force" added to the article
|
---|
The article says Mahdi Abu Deeb has been charged for:
Without adding that he was charged for "promoting the overthrow of the Government by force and illegal means" and "criminal acts" the information in article would not correspond with sources.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
|
Solved:The names of two men that allegedly tortured Deeb are removed from the article until they can be supported by high quality sources.
|
---|
Allegedly tortured Deeb and Bahrain Mirror (anti-government dissident paper) is the only source for serious accusation against two government officials. Such serious accusation should be based on high quality sources and Deeb and I think that BM can not be considered as such. Therefore I propose to remove the names of the government officials Deeb identified as men who tortured him.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
|
Solved:Report of BICI which did not mention Deeb replaced by other source which does.
|
---|
... is used as source for two very important assertions. First about Deeb's activities during the protests and second about his mistreatment in the prison which included beating. Maybe I did not look carefully, but I could not find any menton of Deeb's name in the above mentioned source. Is it possible to get some quotes from this source which support this serious claims?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:28, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
|
Without government response to the criticism this section of the article does not fully meet NPOV requests.
There is a source which prove that very important organization ( OHCHR) was deeply concerned because of the human right issues in Bahrain and sent appeals and requests for explanations. The first among many issues they were concerned was related to Deeb.
I think that UN's agency should be mentioned in this article. Not only because it is important but mostly because it could be presented within the main points from the government's reply (1)that Deeb was found guilty by the court, 2)that he had been afforded all judical guarantees and 3)that he has right to appeal) which are necessary to be presented within responses section in order to meet NPOV requests.
Any comments?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:09, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for expanding this section with government's response and some additional important responses. I propose to rearange this section to follow some order. Either the importance (first UN, then EU, then various NGOs) or chronology (which is probably most neutral and suitable for expected further expanding).-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
New response [8]. Mohamed CJ (talk) 19:28, 24 April 2012 (UTC)